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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: If you could travel back in time to 1948....
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
....and had the power to provide a homeland to the Jewish people that wasn't Israel but had ample resources and was uninhabited would you do it?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
The thought of smog and rationing might put me off.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
No, for the simple reason that after the Shoa the largest population of Jews in the world was either in what is now Israel or one of the north american cities.
Since most of the surviving displaced Jews of Europe had either/or yiddish and hebrew as common languages, it would have made no sense to organise mass migration to an English speaking country.
In any case, the UN had voted on the partitioning of the land covered by the Palestine Mandate in 1947 and wealthy non-Jewish residents of areas which were to be ceded to the jews were already moving, mainly to Cairo and Beirut but Amman and Damascus also received a fair number.
It was also from early November (before the UN vote) that British forces started to withdraw from large areas of what was meant to become jewish controlled Palestine, and failed utterly to stem the violence that erupted after the vote.
So, if I could travel back to 1948, first I'd make sure it was January, not 14th May, and then I'd try to ensure that the approach by the Mandate Police Force was even-handed and give an ultimatum to John Glubb and Norman Lash that they either resign from their positions in the Arab Legion or remain and take Jordanian citizenship. And I'd do my utmost to jam radio broadcasts from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq inciting armed attacks on jewish settlements.
And I'd ask the UN to send in peacekeepers to enforce to partition map and prevent not only the violence of the 'Independence War' but also stop the occupation of Jerusalem by Jordan, and the annexation of the Gaza strip by Egypt.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
....and had the power to provide a homeland to the Jewish people that wasn't Israel but had ample resources and was uninhabited would you do it?
First you'd need to create uninhabited territory with ample resources. If there are resources, even at marginal levels, the territory would not be uninhabited. So, you'd start by displacing (or worse) a large number of people from their homes to create an uninhabited territory. And, this is supposed to be better than what actually happened how???
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
the thing is, places with ample resources tend to BE inhabited already. Unless you meant could we create a new piece of land out of nowhere?
There was, I think, a lot of re drawing of borders/forced movement of people at that time (German speaking people from eastern Europe were moved inside the new German borders, the partition of India happenned around that time, etc), and none of them were particularly peaceful
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
And time travel is impossible. It's a thought experiment where you have the power to do these things.
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
Would you consider Siberia to fulfill your requirements? That is an interesting what-if. A secular Jewish homeland smack dab in the middle of Asia.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policemen's Union describes a Zion-in-Alaska world for alternative history fans.
Myself, I would have moved them to Nova Scotia where an interesting blend of Vitebsk and Banffshire cultures could result in the haunting sound of the pipes calling in worshippers to shul on the high holy days, the smoked fish industry in Cape Breton would not have died, the herring smacks would rest in harbour on the Sabbath, and the precepts of the Yarmouther Rebbe would be heard with great attention, while the PLO (Presbyterian Church in Canada Liberation Organization) plots the downfall of the Zionist entity.
[ 11. November 2014, 13:21: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
...while the PLO (Presbyterian Church in Canada Liberation Organization) plots the downfall of the Zionist entity.
Fortunately the plot entails 3 separate task forces, all of which report to an oversight committee, which then needs to report to the local Presbytery and then bring an overture to the annual General Assembly, which is then amended and sent for approval by 2/3 of the nat'l Presbyteries over the next year....
.... and we're at 2015...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
And time travel is impossible. It's a thought experiment where you have the power to do these things.
So, what then are your parameters? If the impossible is possible, I can solve the problem in four sentences or less.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
I'm interested in how much people feel Israel itself as a place to live is more or less important than having a suitable homeland anywhere else.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I'm interested in how much people feel Israel itself as a place to live is more or less important than having a suitable homeland anywhere else.
I suppose it is necessary to study the desires of pre-WWII Jews. Did they regard a return to the the region as more important than removing persecution?
Would a stable Isreal located elsewhere then begin pushing for a return to the middle-east? Would that push be peaceful?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
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# 15405
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Posted
I can't think why the Jewish people would have accepted an uninhabited-yet-resourced parcel of land even if one existed and it were offered at the time.
The Passover haggadah always ends with "next year in Israel." Israel is the land promised the Jews by God; Israel is the site of the Second Temple; Israel as the land of the Jews is a basic tenet of the Jewish endeavor, and has been since Abraham dragged Sarah all over the Middle East looking for the spot he swore God promised him and the great nation he was to found.
He wasn't promised Siberia, or Nova Scotia, or Idaho (which is maybe the closest you can get to uninhabited-yet-resourced land), not so much.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Undoubtedly some would. "Next year will get here eventually, for now we would like a little peace".
Such a solution would potentially allow for a more peaceful resolution.
But it would also require the west from fucking around with the middle-east so much. And one would need to set the Delorean for an earlier date to head off that mess.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I can't think why the Jewish people would have accepted an uninhabited-yet-resourced parcel of land even if one existed and it were offered at the time.
The Passover haggadah always ends with "next year in Israel." Israel is the land promised the Jews by God; Israel is the site of the Second Temple; Israel as the land of the Jews is a basic tenet of the Jewish endeavor, and has been since Abraham dragged Sarah all over the Middle East looking for the spot he swore God promised him and the great nation he was to found.
He wasn't promised Siberia, or Nova Scotia, or Idaho (which is maybe the closest you can get to uninhabited-yet-resourced land), not so much.
I don't know about the Jewish people, but the Zionist movement was not so picky. Theodore Herzl was in discussions at various points about other possible homelands; Kenya and Madagascar, I believe, were among those discussed in the 1920s.
However, as there is no such thing as resourced and unpopulated since the settlement of Iceland, any move involves displacement or marginalization of somebody. After the course of events of the 1940s in Germany and the postwar rise in anti-Semitism in formerly Jewish territories in Poland and the lands of the USSR, I don't know if there were any real options at the time. Nova Scotia seemed as good as any other, but perhaps Newfoundland, bankrupt and with the UK trying to unload it in the least problematic way (as they were then doing with Palestine and the Indian Empire), might have been the other option.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
....and had the power to provide a homeland to the Jewish people that wasn't Israel but had ample resources and was uninhabited would you do it?
No because anyone who imagines that one could put a Jewish homeland anywhere else apart from where it is, is deluding themselves.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
How about Khazaria, with core lands north of the Caucasus and a capital Atil in the Volga delta?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Augustine the Aleut: Kenya and Madagascar, I believe, were among those discussed in the 1920s.
I think Uganda was among them too.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I'm interested in how much people feel Israel itself as a place to live is more or less important than having a suitable homeland anywhere else.
I suppose it is necessary to study the desires of pre-WWII Jews. Did they regard a return to the the region as more important than removing persecution?
Would a stable Isreal located elsewhere then begin pushing for a return to the middle-east? Would that push be peaceful?
I suppose the subsidiary question would be whether it's ethical to propose such a relocation. It does seem rather similar to Nick Griffin's voluntary repatriation idea, or indeed a form of ghettoisation.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The whole thing, both what happened and alternate history proposal, is an ethical quagmire. No way to solve it without some ethical compromise.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
....and had the power to provide a homeland to the Jewish people that wasn't Israel but had ample resources and was uninhabited would you do it?
No because anyone who imagines that one could put a Jewish homeland anywhere else apart from where it is, is deluding themselves.
Indeed; forgive me but what a ridiculous notion is presented in the OP.
Do you not think that the whole reason for the very existence of the Jews is that they were settled in Canaan in the first place, after the Exodus?
If you want to just shove the Jews in a corner somewhere else (so they can be seen and not heard perhaps?) then you will have to tear up everything in the Bible from Genesis 12 onwards.
So, if you could go back to 2000BC (give or take a century or two), where would you tell Abraham to go in avoiding any other Land - especially the one you, in your role as God, thought of in the first place!??
And if you could go back to 1300BC where would you tell Moses to go, to avoid the Promised Land?
And if you could go to Babylon in 530BC, where would you tell the Jews to go instead of returning to Jerusalem?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 11. November 2014, 16:58: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The biblical argument is rubbish. Clearly, plainly, simply rubbish.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The whole thing, both what happened and alternate history proposal, is an ethical quagmire. No way to solve it without some ethical compromise.
It depends what you think the problem is. If the problem is that Eretz Israel was given to the children of Abraham unto the ages of ages, then the only possible solution must be engineering a Jewish return to Israel. If on the other hand the problem is that Jewish people are despised and persecuted, then I don't think there is any other oppressed minority group for which an acceptable solution would be 'let them live somewhere else'.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I, perhaps unsurprisingly, do not accept the biblical imperitive.
I do think the problem is fairly complicated and not easily resolved. Even hypothetically.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The only historic decision which might have been changed usefully was the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Once that statement was made, Jewish settlers could begin to move into the area with some hope of eventually having a "homeland".
Once the Holocaust was known publicly, there was little one could do about the eventual post-WW2 setting-up of Israel. Orde Wingate may have some things to answer for, as well.
What might have been done about the Palestinian "issue" is a more useful exercise. Israel has the right to self-defence, but I don't see anywhere that the Palestinians were required to be settlers in a concentration camp that is gradually getting smaller.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I, perhaps unsurprisingly, do not accept the biblical imperitive.
I do think the problem is fairly complicated and not easily resolved. Even hypothetically.
Perhaps you could help the discussion along and explain why you do not "accept the biblical imperitive (sic)". It certainly is one which seems to drive at least the religious parties in Israel, and as pointed out elsewhere leads to the hope "Next year in Israel". Or would you ascribe that to history rather than religion following Rome's expulsion of the Jews?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
i see the bible as a semi-historical account rather than a divinely inspired text.
I think I would ascribe to the semi-historical even were I a believer.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It's worth noting that the orthodox religious who are now forming the greater Israel movement were not very enthusiastic about Zionism and living in Israel at the time it was formed. That came later.
Places with resources and which didn't displace pre-existing populace are hard to find. A local delicatessen has a poster of Orthodox Jewish Gauchos running cattle in the pampas of Argentina.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
I'm interested in how much people feel Israel itself as a place to live is more or less important than having a suitable homeland anywhere else.
*I* think a suitable homeland anywhere else is just fine-- but I'm not Jewish. Israel as a particular geographic place has no particular significance in my theology or belief system. But, as others have noted, you might get a completely different answer from a Jew-- particularly one who survived the Holocaust. Just as you'll get a different answer from Palestinians displaced by Israel. And in the end, it is only those two opinions that matter.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
And time travel is impossible. It's a thought experiment where you have the power to do these things.
Well, if it's a thought experiment on the impossible I'll change the parameters (send the Delorean to another date as suggested).
1948 we have a situation where there is a problem. An existing Jewish community in Palestine, promises 30 years old to allow Jewish settlement there. But, the biggest problem is a large Jewish community displaced from central and eastern Europe, who have been severely traumatised (what an understatement!) and a world community suffering a sense of guilt that things had got so bad. At that point, there is no perfect solution to the problem.
The biggest thing IMO is to eliminate the sense of the Jews being a 'problem' which needs a solution. So, I'd set my Delorean and go back to try and do something to prevent the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe. I think I'd start with a quiet word with Luther and some of the other Reformers so they're a bit more careful about some of what they write. Also, I'll go back and put some order and common humanity into the Crusades, cause of much of the religious tension in the Middle East. Or, howabout going back to the first century and stopping some of the hot headed Zealots pissing off the Romans so much. Let them know that it'll only be a couple of centuries and a whole horde of barbarians will do the job of getting rid of the Romans far better than they can manage.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Or go back even further and have a word with the Abraham-types who occupied Canaan in the first place. "Are you quite sure it's THIS place God wants for you? Because, you know, there are people already living here, and umpty-leven
generations from now, your descendants are going to find themselves in a hell of a mess . . . "
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
i see the bible as a semi-historical account rather than a divinely inspired text.
I think I would ascribe to the semi-historical even were I a believer.
Ah, so you will recognise the historical claim to the land by the people who, since the time of Moses and drawing on their heritage from Abraham, have lived in that area from 1500 years BC
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Mudfrog: Ah, so you will recognise the historical claim to the land by the people who, since the time of Moses and drawing on their heritage from Abraham, have lived in that area from 1500 years BC
My ancestors probably lived somewhere in Sweden in 1500BC. Do I get to claim that too?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Mudfrog
No. Not unless you wish to scarper back to Germany or France. Leave room for the white interlopers from America, some of them will be headed there as well.
That they lived there and were forced out, yes. That they potentially have a right to live there, yes. That they have a right to move in and evict other people and treat them terribly? Not so much.
Whatever right the Jewish people have in the area, the Israelis do not have the same.
[ 11. November 2014, 22:19: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Mudfrog
No. Not unless you wish to scarper back to Germany or France. Leave room for the white interlopers from America, some of them will be headed there as well.
That they lived there and were forced out, yes. That they potentially have a right to live there, yes. That they have a right to move in and evict other people and treat them terribly? Not so much.
Whatever right the Jewish people have in the area, the Israelis do not have the same.
Then you have very little idea what being Jewish actually entails.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Autenrieth Road
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# 10509
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Posted
Enlighten us, Mudfrog. And how did you come by your better knowledge of what being Jewish actually entails?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I, perhaps unsurprisingly, do not accept the biblical imperative.
I do think the problem is fairly complicated and not easily resolved. Even hypothetically.
LilBuddha, to try and put this politely, it really isn't a question of whether you accept the biblical imperative. The issue is that the Jews, for entirely understandable reasons, do.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Creswell
The biggest thing IMO is to eliminate the sense of the Jews being a 'problem' which needs a solution.
In 1948, somebody else and his followers had just tried to solve this 'problem', in ways that most of us, goy though we may be, still regard as totally abhorrent.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Enoch,
It is not that I do not know and have sympathy for that belief. It is that I also have sympathy for conflicting beliefs.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Or go back even further and have a word with the Abraham-types who occupied Canaan in the first place. "Are you quite sure it's THIS place God wants for you? Because, you know, there are people already living here, and umpty-leven
generations from now, your descendants are going to find themselves in a hell of a mess . . . "
I often have that very conversation (mostly internal of course) when reading the book of Joshua.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
And time travel is impossible. It's a thought experiment where you have the power to do these things.
Well, if it's a thought experiment on the impossible I'll change the parameters (send the Delorean to another date as suggested).
If changing parameters is allowed, I'm surprised no one has yet suggested the classical time travel move that would obviate the entire problem, as described in Dru Johnston's heart-felt - even plaintive - essay, "I think I should get more credit for killing Hitler."
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I am no expert in Judaism - other than my OT studies and an A Level in Divinity that included Judaism as a world religion...
Anyway, a year or so ago I attended a barmitzvah on the Sabbath and a wedding (same family) on the Sunday. This was a liberal synagogue in the north of England, so nowhere near a Jewish 'community' that might be strong and confident.
I was amazed at how many times the land of Israel was referenced in the liturgies; and I realised then that Judaism is more than a culture, a set of religious doctrines and practices; it is a community that yearns for Israel. It is almost a race that knows that is home is Israel - this is a people in exile even if, personally, they haven't decided to go an live there. The very earth in that geographical area itself is as much a part of being Jewish as Torah, as heritage, etc.
The very existence of the land/nation of Israel and Judah over the centuries BC and in the first century AD are the very reason there are Jews in the first place and the reason we still have Jews 2000 years after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, is because of the very real hope that 'next year' they will be 'in Jerusalem.'
I'm afraid, one cannot have a Jewish religion if you remove the geographical land of Israel from its hope and identity. Yes, for nearly 2000 there was no Israel, but in their liturgy, prayers and hopes there certainly was.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Alaska? Yiddish Policemen's Union, Wikipedia summary of the book if you click (spoilers).
A temporary settlement of 4 million Jews in Alaska in the 1940s becomes permanent after Israel is destroyed in 1948. The novel is a detective mystery set in Sitka, Alaska, within a fully Jewish-Yiddish-Alaska native cultural milieu.
There is also the Jewish Oblast in Siberia, which actually exists, though dwindling.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Mudfrog
No. Not unless you wish to scarper back to Germany or France. Leave room for the white interlopers from America, some of them will be headed there as well.
That they lived there and were forced out, yes. That they potentially have a right to live there, yes. That they have a right to move in and evict other people and treat them terribly? Not so much.
Whatever right the Jewish people have in the area, the Israelis do not have the same.
Then you have very little idea what being Jewish actually entails.
I don't see how anyone's understanding of themselves entitles them to take someone else's land off of them. That's the bottom line here; people living in Palestine at the time should have had a prior claim; I'd not react well to anyone telling me that their God told them they could take the land my house stands on, and I'm not surprised the Palestinian residents at the time didn't either. What of self determination for them?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It entails, embodies the myth of redemptive violence, justified aggression, being other: being trapped by the evil of narrative. Of fiction.
As for us all.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Given the importance of Israel to the modern electronics industry my concern is that if I send the DeLorean back in time, I will create a temporal paradox that prevents the DeLorean from ever existing.
I agree with those people, however, who think that by 1948 it was way to late to try and persuade people that a) there ought to be a Jewish homeland and b) it ought not to be sited where it currently is sited. If I was going to try anything on those lines I would send Cameron back in time with instructions to get a job as lady in waiting to Mrs Franz Ferdinand and to stick to her and her husband like glue if they should make a social visit to Sarajevo.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I know the importance of having a Jewish homeland, but wasn't the real and true underlying element the elephant in the room we are skating around - nobody in the West wanted them in their country or on their doorstep?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I know the importance of having a Jewish homeland, but wasn't the real and true underlying element the elephant in the room we are skating around - nobody in the West wanted them in their country or on their doorstep?
Well indeed; it seems to me that everything about this controversy is founded upon antiSemitism. There are a lot of people in this world who would still like the Jews to sit in a corner and die off. Why the hell send them to Alaska!?
The Jews were/are a nation in exile, not a religious denomination.
They have every right to the land of Israel - in any case, it's not as if they invaded a sovereign country and took over!
From memory in the early 1920s there were only 300,000 people living in Palestine. By 1948 there were 2 million(?) and a lot of the growth was from Arabs moving into the area to take the increasing job opportunities created by Jewish business ventures.
And not an insignificant number were illegal Arab immigrants.
So, this myth that the Jews took over someone else's country is far from the truth. Had Israel not been created it may still have been a sparsely populated are with a few historical ruins.
If the Arabs were so keen on the land in that area it makes you wonder why it was so undeveloped when Israel was given the land - and look at the success they've made of it!
The only democracy in the Middle East. Compare it to Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan... What do you want, for these guys to take over and replicate those dreadful places??
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
No, for the simple reason that after the Shoa the largest population of Jews in the world was either in what is now Israel or one of the north american cities.
Since most of the surviving displaced Jews of Europe had either/or yiddish and hebrew as common languages, it would have made no sense to organise mass migration to an English speaking country.
In any case, the UN had voted on the partitioning of the land covered by the Palestine Mandate in 1947 and wealthy non-Jewish residents of areas which were to be ceded to the jews were already moving, mainly to Cairo and Beirut but Amman and Damascus also received a fair number.
It was also from early November (before the UN vote) that British forces started to withdraw from large areas of what was meant to become jewish controlled Palestine, and failed utterly to stem the violence that erupted after the vote.
So, if I could travel back to 1948, first I'd make sure it was January, not 14th May, and then I'd try to ensure that the approach by the Mandate Police Force was even-handed and give an ultimatum to John Glubb and Norman Lash that they either resign from their positions in the Arab Legion or remain and take Jordanian citizenship. And I'd do my utmost to jam radio broadcasts from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq inciting armed attacks on jewish settlements.
And I'd ask the UN to send in peacekeepers to enforce to partition map and prevent not only the violence of the 'Independence War' but also stop the occupation of Jerusalem by Jordan, and the annexation of the Gaza strip by Egypt.
Great post. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
The focus on '48 isn't the best way to frame it. Zionists had been immigrating to Palestine since the 19th century. They had, perfectly legally, bought land and settled. Plenty Arabs immigrated in that time also.
By '48, there was a substantial, prosperous Jewish community in Palestine. Any solution to the end of the League of Nations mandate had to guarantee their safety and rights. Partition was the best option I can see. And, yes, the rest of humanity owed the Jewish people for not preventing the Holocaust. Borders should've been thrown open the moment the Nazi Party came to power. They weren't.
Think the comment about U.N. peacekeepers is bang on. Tied to a vigorous U.N. campaign against the antisemitism widespread in some Arab communities, preferably by Arabs themselves. It's right that Israel was founded, but the way it happened has undoubtedly been tragic.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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