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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Demons
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Mudfrog - Nigel Wright has changed/modified his views since his Ansdell days.
I know people who were involved back then and there was a rather unhealthy fixation with demons and 'deliverance' among some people who attended the church at one time.
I suspect this may have led Wright towards his curernt, more moderate position.
As for the Wimber-ish things ... yes, he was very much into that at one time but again, whilst not dismissing all of it - he has modified his views and now thinks - as I do - that a lot/most of it was down to suggestibility and so on.
On the nature of angels and demons - well, yes, I don't have a particular problem - other than issues of vocabulary which we are both struggling with here - as indeed is only to be expected - with what you've outlined.
I would tend to think that the way people 'see' demons (or angels for that matter) is likely to be influenced by depictions within their cultural background rather than the other way round ... ie. I'm not convinced that a medieval imp on a roof-boss or fresco is based on some kind of visual sighting ...
Rather, the depiction derives from what that culture saw as looking wicked or scary - hence venomous creatures - snakes, toads - or spiky looking ones - bats etc.
That isn't to deny the underlying reality, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I know people who were involved back then and there was a rather unhealthy fixation with demons and 'deliverance' among some people who attended the church at one time.
Yup, some people attribute everything they dislike to demons, and seem to spend more time/energy ordering Satan to leave than talking to God. That's unhealthy. quote:
... the way people 'see' demons (or angels for that matter) is likely to be influenced by depictions within their cultural background
I think God communicates with us in our own language, or at least a language we recognize. In the Bible (some) angels don't have wings - Gideon thought he was talking to a man until the angel rose in the flames. But if God wants you to *know* you are seeing an angel, and you believe angels have wings, winged is what you'll see. One Shipmate has said she and a friend saw an angel dressed locally - Indonesian. Locally dressed (skin color too) is easier to relate to than totally strange when one is being supernaturally startled!
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
"Bad vibes" turned up in my spare bedroom, with no apparent triggering event in that location. I was so concerned that I tried sitting in there praying, but it was difficult. I got a friend to go in there to see if he noticed anything - which he did,...
...a South London church which was open very late at night. On one occasion, I found it very difficult to settle into the silence. There were odd noises, and a sense of unease. As we left, my friend asked if I had noticed anything. In his case, the noises had occurred exactly at the moments when he had been "centring down"...
I'm not convinced that demons were involved though. Unquiet dead people? I don't know.
When househunting, one house we walked into, sigh, that sort of negative electric sense in the atmosphere. It got thicker as we moved closer to the back of the house, thickest in the bedroom where there was an altar to what looked like a martial arts guy.
We left, I asked the real estate agent if he had felt anything unusual. He said the hairs on his legs were standing on end in the house.
I said "demons" (although "restless dead person" is a possibility, I once dealt with a "creepy room" no staff would go it where that turned out to be the problem). The agent said he has been told by other agents that when you walk into a house where a murder was committed, you feel it even if you weren't told. My saying "sigh, demons" didn't freak him out because he'd already been warned by other agents, he just hadn't yet experienced that sort of encounter.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Where it should get interesting is in fact where non-Christians get cured by exorcisms. You can easily explain away Christians getting cured as mild psychic problems that get expressed in a particular cultural fashion, and that respond positively to external attention lavished onto the problem in the same particular cultural fashion. But where Christians exorcise "successfully" non-Christians, that could be interesting for a skeptic. That doesn't happen in the West though, but I bet examples could be found in the Wild South...
Other than wondering what you mean by the "Wild South". Why would it not happen in the west?
Objective phenomena don't happen "only" on the edge of unexplored regions of maps. "Here be dragons". Especially when there are no such places anymore.
If there were such things as demons why would they act differently in Bolivia than in Berlin?
That is a lot easier to explain as a cultural difference than by the existence of an unseen supernatural force.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I've been reading through as you've all been posting. There's a massive amount of food for thought here, thank you all.
I was less likely to accept the idea of evil created spirits than that of malignant 'ghosts' of 'restless dead people', particularly as the person in the op who claimed to have been freed of demons had been inviting the latter in to his life through ouija boards and spiritualist meetings.
I will continue to keep an open mind.
It makes sense to me that all that influences us, whether directly into our thoughts or in pictures laid down in the subconscious, will be from a combination of physical, mental and spiritual sources, both internal and external, which would be very difficult to separate out. Our own beliefs and tendencies would themselves influence any attempts to do so.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
Other than wondering what you mean by the "Wild South". Why would it not happen in the west?
"Wild South" was just a fun play on "Wild West", given that the West (Europe + North America) is ecclesiastically tame and controlled these days, whereas the South (Africa in particular, but also South America) isn't as much.
The reason why it won't happen in the West is indeed cultural, but that's quite independent of how "real" this phenomenon is. In the West, exorcism "providers" - at least official ones, like the RCC, the Anglicans, etc. - are professional and regulated. And in the West, potential exorcism "customers" do not live in a general culture that would encourage them to eclectically seek help from the officials of a different religion. I just don't think the exorcist licensed by a bishop in a Western diocese will often get a call from some animist family to help drive out a devil. So the interesting case of a non-Christian being exorcised in the name of Christ may happen in Africa, but I doubt that it happens often in say the UK.
And the point I was making was not that demons only act in Africa; but rather that the easy explanation of the work of demons as just a kind of Christian hysteria is not as obvious when one has non-Christians being exorcised, and that sort of thing is more likely to happen in Africa.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No--it's more that in order to cope effectively with something, you have to be at least open to the possibility that it exists. Otherwise you are likely to squash whatever evidence you run across into the shape of what you DO think exists, and overlook anything that hints of something different this time around. It's a pretty universal human failing. (See: Columbus and his refusal to consider the possibility that he had found something other than the Indies; the naysayers at the time germ theory began; the wee child who assumed that the man who accompanied me to church all the time was my Daddy, as that was the only category she had for related adult males; etc. etc. etc.)
But being open to the possibility that something exists is not the same as believing that something exists. I am open to the possibility of intelligent alien life for example. But that would not be my first choice for an explanation when confronted by an unknown radio emission from outer space. Only when I had exhausted all non artificial alternatives would aliens start to sound possible. In the same vein starting with an exorcist or a believer in demons before exhausting other mental health alternatives seems extremely foolish to me. And the reason it seems foolish is that we don't have any evidence for the existence of demons. At least not better evidence that that for the existence of Fairies.
And the last time it was government policy to take demons seriously it resulted in witch burning, not an example we want to repeat.
As far as I know, nobody has suggested involving the government or any other legal authority. Nor has anybody suggested starting off with an exorcist as a court of first resort. And exorcists themselves (the diocesan type, we're not talking self-appointed weirdoes in the street), once you get to them, are highly unlikely to simply start exorcising a person the first time he pokes his nose through the door! There is such a thing as careful assessment and differential diagnosis. Not to mention consultation with various professionals. I would expect most cases of alleged demonic interference to "wash out" during this process, before ever getting to exorcism. The two cases involving exorcism requests to us both did.
As for their being no evidence of the existence of demons--well, you've not seen any. And those who have, or believe they have, generally have much better things to do with their time than try to design rigorous double blind scientific studies to prove the existence of such creatures to everybody who's curious. (How would one go about that, anyway? If demons DO exist, allowing a group of people to remain plagued by them in the interests of science would be massively unethical. Not to mention the difficulty in recruiting enough subjects to draw conclusions about such a rare phenomenon, the fact that intelligent beings such as demons are unlikely to cooperate in the study, and the fact that we really don't know enough to even ask the right questions at this point.)
To the best of my knowledge, most (all?) exorcists are at most very part-time. Which is as it should be, since there does not seem to be a massive outbreak of these issues in Western countries right now. (Mission fields differ from one another and you'd have to consult with experienced local leaders.)
Which is all to say that if such matters are properly handled, without sensationalism and stupidity, there's no reason why you or the general public should ever become aware of a potential exorcism case unless directly involved.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Do demons exist? I would say 'not so much', but it isn't my reality that is important if someone says a demon did this or that. I think it is perfectly possible to not believe in demons or devils etc to understand someone who does. You could probably perform an exorcism without believing in demons. You can also do yoga without accepting whatever distilled eastern beliefs accompany it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... if such matters are properly handled, without sensationalism and stupidity, there's no reason why you or the general public should ever become aware of a potential exorcism case unless directly involved.
Exactly so.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
How many humans have died before us, walked the same paths, lived in the same areas? How many of them died in perfect peace, painless and without animosity toward anyone? I would think the number of restless dead people would be legion.
When the U. S. Air Force first sent us to Washington DC the billeting was full and so were all the hotels in the area. One night we took our sleeping bags and slept between some graves in Arlington Cemetery. We were not bothered by any restless dead people in spite of some pretty horrific deaths among the soldiers buried there.
When we went to England we rented a cottage and after a few months someone told us that the previous owner had hung herself over the stairs. I had been almost deliriously happy, alone there much of the time, and continued to be.
I can easily imagine going into a house and getting "bad vibes," though. The smell of dead mice, mold, or bad plumbing could all bother me. Poor ventilation and lack of sunlight could depress me. An altar to a movie star would make me feel sad, but restless dead people would never be my guess as to what was wrong.
You might just say I'm too insensitive to feel their presence, it's possible, but I really think there's almost always a logical explanation for any close encounters with restless dead people.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Where it should get interesting is in fact where non-Christians get cured by exorcisms. You can easily explain away Christians getting cured as mild psychic problems that get expressed in a particular cultural fashion, and that respond positively to external attention lavished onto the problem in the same particular cultural fashion. But where Christians exorcise "successfully" non-Christians, that could be interesting for a skeptic. That doesn't happen in the West though, but I bet examples could be found in the Wild South...
Other than wondering what you mean by the "Wild South". Why would it not happen in the west?
Objective phenomena don't happen "only" on the edge of unexplored regions of maps. "Here be dragons". Especially when there are no such places anymore.
If there were such things as demons why would they act differently in Bolivia than in Berlin?
That is a lot easier to explain as a cultural difference than by the existence of an unseen supernatural force.
I'll answer this one, if I may!
The first question has to do with what demons are. Traditional, orthodox Christianity sees them as spirits that are opposed to God and to his kingship--specifically, to Jesus Christ and the salvation he has brought for humankind. But though demons are intelligent and antagonistic, they are rebels against Christ--not rival powers on an equal level with him. Their rebellion can be, and is in the process of being, crushed. God's power is greater.
That being the case, you'd expect to find little demonic activity in a geographical location that is pretty much saturated with Christians. That territory is much less vulnerable to attack, and frankly, probably a waste of a demon's time. It would be more cost-effective for them to go make trouble somewhere that is as yet largely unaffected by Christianity--which is in fact what the (merely anecdotal, of course) reports bear out.
Most useful of all from a demon's point of view would be to focus their activity on the front lines of the kingdom of God--that is, places / people groups / situations where Christianity is advancing, but hasn't gained a decisive advantage yet. The intention would be to stop Christianity getting a foothold, or to harass and destroy new believers during their time of weakness, their spiritual infancy. This scenario would explain why there seems to have been an explosion of demonic activity in Palestine during the life of Christ. It's also the reason why missionaries always, and desperately, ask for people's prayers. Being on the front lines means getting shot at. And you can get hurt and suffer real damage.
Just a note--those front lines are not always in "the wild South", China, Africa, etc. We've spent nearly 30 years now on the front lines in the American Midwest, in a major city. But the group we are caring for is less than 5% Christian, so it's no wonder there's a lot of spiritual blowback as people come to faith.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I just don't think the exorcist licensed by a bishop in a Western diocese will often get a call from some animist family to help drive out a devil. So the interesting case of a non-Christian being exorcised in the name of Christ may happen in Africa, but I doubt that it happens often in say the UK.
We're in the American Midwest, and our two cases were both requests from non-Christian, animistic and ancestor-worshipping families to evict demons from their homes. In both cases they were heavily involved with fortune telling for money. They came to us (the local Christian leaders) because they recognized the power of Christ and wished to harness it for their own needs, much as you might "rent" an off-duty cop to deal with your security problems at a bar.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We're in the American Midwest, and our two cases were both requests from non-Christian, animistic and ancestor-worshipping families to evict demons from their homes. In both cases they were heavily involved with fortune telling for money. They came to us (the local Christian leaders) because they recognized the power of Christ and wished to harness it for their own needs, much as you might "rent" an off-duty cop to deal with your security problems at a bar.
Interesting. Did you do it? And if yes, did the exorcism "work" for the "clients"?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
They ultimately backed out. You recall Jesus' parable about the man possessed by a demon who gets cast out? When it returns, it finds the "house" empty though clean. So it goes and finds seven spirits worse than itself, and moves back in.
We take that as a warning to anyone who tries to evict evil spirits without simultaneously seeing to it that the "house" is filled by a new tenant--namely, the Holy Spirit. And so, after telling them Jesus' parable, we told them that we'd be willing to do it for them, but that for it to be effective, they would need a) to stop the fortune telling business, and b) to become Christian believers of some sort. But the families made considerable amounts of money from fortune telling. They ultimately decided that the price was too high to pay, and decided to move house instead, in the hopes that the demons would be too stupid to follow them.
I often wonder how that worked out.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
And the point I was making was not that demons only act in Africa; but rather that the easy explanation of the work of demons as just a kind of Christian hysteria is not as obvious when one has non-Christians being exorcised, and that sort of thing is more likely to happen in Africa.
Those cultures also have traditions that have demons in them. In a poor country the local "shaman" might have lest prestige in the eyes of some than a missionary from the west. I can easily see a person or family from a different religion seeking the help of a prestigious western minister unless their tradition expressly forbids them to. That does not make it any more or less "real".
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As far as I know, nobody has suggested involving the government or any other legal authority.
This I find strange. If we are talking about a real phenomenon. Why would you not want the government involved? When there was widespread belief that demons were real the government did get involved. It would affect things like the Judicial system. "The devil made me do it" defense might have a point in some real cases. Doctors would have to be trained in recognizing demon possession,because if its real they would encounter it. But what we find is the opposite.
While it was widely accepted in the past, advances in the sciences and medical treatment rejected it.
It was not the case that it was ignored and not considered as a possibility. It passed from being a consensus idea to a fringe idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As for their being no evidence of the existence of demons--well, you've not seen any. And those who have, or believe they have, generally have much better things to do with their time than try to design rigorous double blind scientific studies to prove the existence of such creatures to everybody who's curious.
I understand an isolated minister or priest would not have the time nor the resources. But a church?
If this is real, what is the problem with proving it? If its real people who are endangered by this would need good reasons to take it seriously.
Failing to provide them is not helpful.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Seriously? (Cough, sputter, choke) Sorry. It's just that that is so far the reverse of what I'm used to... In my admittedly not - comprehensive experience, if an outside-the-culture missionary gains such respect ( in spiritual things--I'm not talking about economic or political power, which an outsider can easily have from day one) but as I was saying, if they get consulted for spiritual matters instead of the local indigeneous shaman, it's because they've earned it. Spirituality is usually so "interior" to a culture, to consult a yet-unknown outside missionary is very like asking him/her for advice on how to make grandma's soup.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Holy crosspost, Batman! This post here is in response to your second, then. The practical problems of organizing such research are immense, as I indicated upthread. I agree in principle that scientific proof would be a lovely thing to have, but no church I know of (except possibly Rome) has the financial and political power to organize any such study ( which would have to include a massive number of people, as I explained before). And the ethical issues would still remain. What priest, what Christian would be willing to withhold treatment from suffering people in the control group? And see to it that nobody else outside the study offered help either?
Uhuh, won't work. It's like trying to study prayer for healing. Even if you could personally refrain from praying for someone in the interests of science, you can bet their friends and relatives won't observe your restriction.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously? (Cough, sputter, choke) Sorry. It's just that that is so far the reverse of what I'm used to... In my admittedly not - comprehensive experience, if an outside-the-culture missionary gains such respect ( in spiritual things--I'm not talking about economic or political power, which an outsider can easily have from day one) but as I was saying, if they get consulted for spiritual matters instead of the local indigeneous shaman, it's because they've earned it. Spirituality is usually so "interior" to a culture, to consult a yet-unknown outside missionary is very like asking him/her for advice on how to make grandma's soup.
You are actually strengthening my point. If the person has earned "spiritual" respect. The people asking for help are a lot closer to being Christians, than would be good for IngoB's point.
Which was I believe that the fact that Christian exorcism "works" for non Christians strengthens the case for the either the existence of Demons or it not being a Christian issue.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Isn't it correct that demons have been internalized, or if you like, psychologized? So there has been a kind of secularization.
I remember in training, studying the 'inner saboteur', also given other names, which can be a tremendously malevolent force inside some people; also these forces often seem autonomous, beyond our control. There are many techniques for dealing with them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ikkyu--I wasn't at all addressing whether exorcism "works" for non-Christians. I assume it can (should we place all Jesus' subjects in the already-converted camp?) but one would hope the helped person would go on to consider the claims of Christ. (else, as pointed out above, he/she might be at risk for a re-infestation.)
The people who contacted us were in no sense close to becoming Christians. Far from it. But they were pragmatists, and they saw a source of power they thought they could access, er, control. Quite sensible, really, given that we would of course have done it for free, and if it failed they would have been no worse off.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If they are there, and they are destroying lives, then there is a failure of the way the world is set up.
Well, yes; this is known as The Fall, and applies to all sorts of things other than malevolent discarnate spirits.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Rather, the depiction derives from what that culture saw as looking wicked or scary - hence venomous creatures - snakes, toads - or spiky looking ones - bats etc.
That isn't to deny the underlying reality, of course.
Indeed. I agree with Lewis, and prefer bats to bureaucrats.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You could probably perform an exorcism without believing in demons.
I, er, wouldn't advise trying something like that. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I would think the number of restless dead people would be legion.
Hopefully they eventually, you know, rest. I feel sorry for them.
quote:
... I really think there's almost always a logical explanation for any close encounters with restless dead people.
Well, of course there is; they're restless dead people. That's quite logical. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
That being the case, you'd expect to find little demonic activity in a geographical location that is pretty much saturated with Christians.
I'm not sure I agree in this specific case, unless you mean visible/spooky/paranormal demonic activity, rather than general (and arguably nastier in the long run) temptation. But a lot of it may depend on the culture and context, so in one place, using spooky stuff may be the tactic, and in another, nudging people toward a self-satisfied materialism.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
They ultimately decided that the price was too high to pay, and decided to move house instead, in the hopes that the demons would be too stupid to follow them.
I often wonder how that worked out.
*facepalm* Well... at least they did count the cost. You'd think that this would be a no-brainer, but, well...
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
If we are talking about a real phenomenon. Why would you not want the government involved?
We believe Jesus is real, too, but we don't want a theocracy!
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
And the last time it was government policy to take demons seriously it resulted in witch burning, not an example we want to repeat.
I think you've answered your own question here. If the price of having this in government hands is witch hunting and burning, then it's too high a price to pay. But there's arguably a great big thread to unpack there too, with the matter of the church using the weapons of this world, and the corruption which has ensued as a result.
Many of us believe that orthodoxy is a good and real thing, and that heresy is a bad and real thing, but that doesn't mean we want the government messing about in that. Centuries of history have shown that that's a spectacularly horrible idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I But they were pragmatists, and they saw a source of power they thought they could access, er, control.
Reminds me of Simon the sorcerer from Acts. There's something really sad about all of that. The idea that healing and love is available, but it's just seen as another source of power... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
In my work I don't spend any time talking about what I call "History Channel" religion. You know the sort: breathless dramas masquerading as documentaries about Jesus' lost brother, or wife, or the ossuary containing the mortal remains of James or Judas or whomever or how the church hid the lost gospels. Still less do I waste my or my clients' time talking about The Exorcist or diocesan exorcisms. All that teevee dreck is designed to sell eyeballs to advertisers, among which I included the Beeb and enn-pee-r.
The high profile, 36-point headline demons are distracting entertainment for most people, and really beside the point. Monster movies with a thin shiny veneer of religious cred troweled on.
From the fourth century, Evagrius laid out a demonic schema that is decidedly retail, low rent, and utterly lacking in Big Screen Appeal. But, it is utterly practical and life reforming.
The demons are lazy sons of bitches. They plant an idea and then they let us run with it. They allow us to do all the heavy lifting ourselves while they return to bed.
The Eight Thoughts are these:- Gluttony
- Greed
- Lust
- Sadness
- Anger
- Despondency
- Pride
- Vainglory
Mark the Ascetic identifies the process by which these demons inveigle themselves into our minds:- Provocation
- Disturbance of the intellect
- Entertainment (in the sense of entertaining a guest)
- Assent
- Prepossession
- Passion
Pace Lamb Chopped, the demons are most active when Christians are working hardest. And, they are most vicious (vice-promoting) when most quotidian.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
At least not better evidence that that for the existence of Fairies.
Fairies would be another thread, I think.
Was in Newfoundland a decade ago, walking the East Coast Trail in the south of the Avalon Peninsula, staying Bed and Breakfasts in the rain and wind, all of it recommended.
One utterly desolate day we sat in a room overlooking Pee-pee Island and its Arse Leg Point (not making that up), when then the CBC had a noon call-in show where people called in for advice on dealing with the fairies that were giving their babies colic, souring the milk, giving them impotence and otherwise wilting the cabbages. They weren't describing nice little Disney creatures, but little devilish demons every bit as demony as your regular non-Newf forked tailed horny demons. We were chuckling about it all, but dummied up our seriousness when it became apparent that our hosts were as convinced about fairies as their pope was about his infallibility.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
When I said "demons are more active in places where there are few or no Christians," I was referring of course to the kind of spooky activity most people automatically think of as demonic. I have no doubt demons are involved in ordinary temptation etc, but there it's so hard to tease apart what is due to them and what is due to the world and to our own weak flesh that it really isn't worth it anyway, is it? You just have to get on with it, with the help of God. Then, too, this is an area where formal exorcism is rarely employed, probably because it's so hard to distinguish where the temptation is coming from (though if I have my suspicions raised for some particular occasion, I admit I do ask Jesus if he'd be so kind as to have a word with whatever is harassing me, and tell it to go away).
Perhaps I should have said the activity of demons is more out-in-the-open in the absence of many Christians.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
We carry our own personal demons around within us. If they gain control we are in Hell.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
We carry our own personal demons around within us. If they gain control we are in Hell.
What do you think the nature of these personal demons is? Where do they come from?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
I'm skeptical about demons except as a metaphor for personal internal dysfunction. So I am surprised to meet so many believers.
Do demons have free will? Can they be saved? Can they be destroyed?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I believe in the existence of demons, but that almost everything that people imagine to be demonisation or demonic activity today is not.
I've been on the receiving end of being discerned as having a "Jezebellic spirit", which you can read about at length in books like this and this. They list various supposed "symptoms", all of them subjective, some of them contradictory, and none of them based on any clear biblical exegesis. This "discernment" cost me, well, a lot.
I've done a bit of "pastoral" or if you like, recovery work with people who've been in your shoes. Taking a more objective, outside the situation looking in sort of view I reckon the people who most often express the character of the "Jezebal spirit" are them what most often discern it.
Hope you've recovered.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm skeptical about demons except as a metaphor for personal internal dysfunction. So I am surprised to meet so many believers.
I am too - totally sceptical. In fact, I can see no reason whatever for their existence, or for me to believe that they may exist.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Doesn't 'Jezebel Spirit' just mean 'you think differently to me and I can't cope with people who insist on doing that'!!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ikkyu
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# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm skeptical about demons except as a metaphor for personal internal dysfunction. So I am surprised to meet so many believers.
I am too - totally sceptical. In fact, I can see no reason whatever for their existence, or for me to believe that they may exist.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm skeptical about demons except as a metaphor for personal internal dysfunction. So I am surprised to meet so many believers.
I am too - totally sceptical. In fact, I can see no reason whatever for their existence, or for me to believe that they may exist.
Do they have to have a reason to exist?
Why can we not just accept that there is an order of creation that we know nothing about.
I myself wish that wasps did not exist. I can see no point to them except to torment me in August.
Neither can I see the point of those flies that only live for a day; what's that about? Why bother?
But then I realise that I, as a mere creature, should not be so arrogant as to say to God: I can't see the point for spiritual creatures so I don't believe you created them.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm skeptical about demons except as a metaphor for personal internal dysfunction. So I am surprised to meet so many believers.
I am too - totally sceptical. In fact, I can see no reason whatever for their existence, or for me to believe that they may exist.
Do they have to have a reason to exist?
Why can we not just accept that there is an order of creation that we know nothing about.
I myself wish that wasps did not exist. I can see no point to them except to torment me in August.
Neither can I see the point of those flies that only live for a day; what's that about? Why bother?
But then I realise that I, as a mere creature, should not be so arrogant as to say to God: I can't see the point for spiritual creatures so I don't believe you created them.
You're eliding reasons for believing things exist with the purpose of things that exist. I believe wasps exists, despite them not being directly useful to me. They may be part of some complicated ecology that is involved in producing the food I eat. But there's ample evidence they exist.
As for your question
quote:
Why can we not just accept that there is an order of creation that we know nothing about.
Why so modest? Why not just accept that there are billions of orders of creation that we know nothing about and have no evidence exist. Maybe they're all true. But until evidence shows up, I'll not assume they exist.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
To apply Ockham's Razor: There is no observable phenomenon which can be explained with a demon that cannot be better and more simply explained without a demon.
So for practical purposes, they don't exist, any more than phlogiston or luminiferous ether.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
"Better" is a matter of opinion.
And I am at present teaching a class of high schoolers online from ca .2000 miles away. I suspect that my students could make precisely the same argument against my existence.
On the internet, no one knows you're a demon (English teacher). ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The Twilight book series has sold over 100 million copies, because that many people are pleasantly thrilled to imagine vampires are real.
Does not follow. I like stories about fairies but I don't imagine for an instant that they're real. They just make for good stories. Just because someone enjoys books about vampires doesn't mean they imagine they're real. Indeed, the same delighted readers might be horrified to imagine that vampires were actually real. Some things are more enjoyable when you know they have no possibility of existing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
IMV, a 'demon' is that part of us that is out of tune with God. Nazi Germany, to take one example, shows what happens when demons get together and take over a nation.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
On "casting out" in general, I was well advised by my counselling supervisor (a Christian who counselled, rather than a "Christian counsellor") that she had spent months and months aiding the recovery of folks who had had "things" cast out of them which were never there in the first place. The dangers of incoherent and contradictory definitions, and false confidence that "you know" that someone is afflicted in this way are very real.
On Jezebel or Jezebellic Spirit, I think Truman White is right in this quote
quote:
Taking a more objective, outside the situation looking in sort of view I reckon the people who most often express the character of the "Jezebal spirit" are them what most often discern it.
Simply put, what is described as a Jezebel spirit is "a single minded determination to have one's own way, no matter who or what is destroyed in the process". Used by someone in spiritual authority, it can be used to damage and disempower divergent thinking, which is always characterised as undermining or rebellion.
Beware of those who brook no opposition. Such people are a danger to themselves and others. Are they demonised? I'd rather describe them as suffering from the great sin of pride. That way we can all recognise the dangers to ourselves of a misuse of authority. Particular if we have authority ourselves.
[ 18. March 2015, 09:17: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thanks Truman White for your sympathy. I think I've recovered as much as I'm ever going to, but I don't think I'm ever going to be the way I was.
I often compare the experience to suffering a career-ending sporting injury: you can never play again, but that doesn't mean you have nothing to contribute to the sport.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Simply put, what is described as a Jezebel spirit is "a single minded determination to have one's own way, no matter who or what is destroyed in the process".
That is one way of summarizing what is popularly meant by a Jezebel spirit, but I think the biblical evidence for it is flimsy to say the least, and that in practice the accusation is a blunt instrument for getting rid of someone with whom you disagree. It's best countered not in spiritual terms but in common-sense ones.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's probably clear already that I agree with Eutychus' last para, but there is no harm in reinforcing it. Control freaks do precisely what Eutychus says. They just feel threatened or insulted by those who diverge from their own views. They know better what's right than "mere underlings". Pride, as I said.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Indeed ...
Meanwhile, apologies for being picky, but truly spiritual solutions will tend to be 'common sense' ones.
You can be spiritual and 'common sense' at one and the same time, of course. Lots of people are.
It's the combination of 'super-spirituality' and spiritual pride - what the Russians call 'prelest' - which is the toxic mix.
I agree with Truman White, Barnabas62 and Eutychus on this one ...
In terms of whether demons or angels 'exist' in the traditional sense of how they've been envisaged - well yes, I am prepared to accept that they do - but with various caveats and corollaries.
If I said that someone was suffering from their own 'personal demons' I wouldn't necessarily be envisaging some kind of demonic possession or malignant spiritual forces - I may simply be referring to some kind of self-destructive trajectory that they are on through a combination of factors - which may range from addictions to poor life choices to adverse social conditions and influences and much else besides ...
In other contexts, I might well be referring to demons as traditionally understood - but, as we've discussed upthread, certainly not malicious entities with imp-like features and horns/wings etc.
I still think that Nigel Wright's 'anti-matter' or 'anti-personality' analogy has much to commend it ... but as with any of these things we have to tread carefully along the bounds of speculation.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's worth pointing out that the notion of the internal saboteur, or inner critic (given many other names) has been the focus of considerable work in psychotherapy. In fact, with some clients, learning to deal with such hostile internal forces may be a big part of the therapy; and it is often difficult and painful work. One of the paradoxes that is found is that some people are very attached to their own 'demons', and are loath to let go of them.
Another point of interest is the connection between internal malevolence and external, for example, how much has been internalized.
[ 18. March 2015, 11:22: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I still think that Nigel Wright's 'anti-matter' or 'anti-personality' analogy has much to commend it
If Satan is a created entity, he is not an "anti-entity". Beware dualism.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Simply put, what is described as a Jezebel spirit is "a single minded determination to have one's own way, no matter who or what is destroyed in the process".
...in practice the accusation is a blunt instrument for getting rid of someone with whom you disagree. It's best countered not in spiritual terms but in common-sense ones.
Yes.
In my experience, when someone wants to force you down or force you to leave, they use un-disprovable accusations, knowing many will assume "where there's smoke there's fire." It's a power play with no truth behind it. Happens in business world too, backstabbing competition with vague, un-disprovable accusations that, if true, would make the victim a poor choice for the promotion, management often won't take the risk. It works is why it's done.
If someone really thought you were plagued with an unholy spirit they would feel sorry for you and try to help, not accuse! The lack of compassion is good indication it's a this-world power play.
Unfortunately, we often internalize the accusation, especially if it's repeated a lot. I was damaged in by the childhood local TEC church's insistence women are spiritually forbidden to be develop any talents other than housekeeping and childrearing. That makes any career excellence "wrong."
But God is in the healing business. Might take a long time, might be in steps, but the result is being healthier than before the damage. I will never again fully trust any church, but that is much healthier than the mindless unquestioning trust I was taught! People who see you getting free will try to pull you back into their own unhealth, but you'll be better able to shrug off the accusations and stay focused on enjoying God.
Don't assume you are permanently damaged. Don't look back to who you were before and wish to return. Ask God to help you become the person God had in mind when making you. It will be a bit different than who you were, more amazing.
Disclainer, I am not a counselor, just a former victim of "jezebel spirit" and related put-downs.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
What Belle Ringer said. And what Silent Acolyte said. St Ignatius had a hat full of stuff to say about demons, but in the context of the "good" and "bad" spirit. He's got some ideas on discerning spiritual influences, based on the notion that, in his world view, spiritual beings can work through natural processes. It's like we are in a sort of Eco-system which contains both. All quite subtle.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Why can we not just accept that there is an order of creation that we know nothing about?
Wisdom and knowledge may intercept, but they are two different things.
I think it's wise to deal with reality. Which is difficult enough. There is no point blaming something on a 'demon' when there are plenty of real, difficult, psychological, physical, emotional, sociological and intellectual reasons for the way we behave.
Lets begin to deal with them before we start making up supernatural causes.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Why can we not just accept that there is an order of creation that we know nothing about?
Wisdom and knowledge may intercept, but they are two different things.
I think it's wise to deal with reality. Which is difficult enough. There is no point blaming something on a 'demon' when there are plenty of real, difficult, psychological, physical, emotional, sociological and intellectual reasons for the way we behave.
Lets begin to deal with them before we start making up supernatural causes.
Historically, it's the sense of the supernatural that came first. We've developed a stack of other ways of understanding our experience - doesn't mean we need to chuck out our understanding of a world with a spiritual dimension. You can work with both.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I am not saying that Satan is 'anti-entity' -nor do I think Wright is saying that - if I understand him correctly. Rather it's an anti-person thing - in both senses of that term. It is a long time since I read the book though. I wouldn't accuse either Walker or Wright of dualism.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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