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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hard Work and Sacrifice
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I saw Dilbert today, and though - as so often - that Scott Adams has hit on an important truth here.
We encourage people to work hard and sacrifice to be successful, without really defining what success means, or how you know when you have achieved it - or, for that matter, whether it is something you should be seeking.
And, of course, the church is as bad. Because hard work and sacrifice are Good Christian Principles*, and the results are sometime Success, then clearly Success must be a Good Christian Principle too.
And what of those who sacrifice and work hard, and still fail to achieve? What of those who are poor in the worlds eyes? The church is quite happy to pick them up as casualties, broken people. And then indoctrinate them into another Work Hard and Sacrifice for God culture.
I sometimes wonder if Wally is not the best model of them all. There are times I wish I was more like him than Dilbert.
* Neither of them are in the terms they are portrayed. Sacrifice can be, in terms of priorities, but this does not mean sacrificing family and other people for Church work - it may mean sacrificing them for God. And Hard Work - if you work hard or are lazy, you still end up dead, thus says Qoheleth, author of Ecclesiasties.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Chief of sinners
Shipmate
# 8794
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Posted
I too read Dilbert every day. I feel Wally misses out, I would hate to come to the end of my life thinking, "I could have been a contender."
Success for me means though I may try and fail but at least I did my very best with the talents I received.
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If Jesus was half the revolutionary you claim, how come he is now represented by one of the most conservative, status-quo institutions on the planet?
Posts: 155 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
But Wally seems more content in his lot than any of the other characters.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Surely Christianity doesn't just say "work hard"? Doesn't it also say "be still and know that I am God"?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Does it say "work hard"? Isn't that rather the Protestant Work Ethic?
I'm somewhat reminded of a thought I had yesterday. An itinerant jobless religious mystic wanders around pissing off the establishment, hanging out with the more disreputable elements of society and telling people not to apply religious rules rigorously but think about what's really important about them, and ends up crucified.
Somehow, out of this, we've got a religion that's associated with hard work, worldly respectability and conformity.
How the hell did that happen?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Religion tends to adapt to social conditions, doesn't it? I was thinking about the Victorian middle class, which seems to have favoured respectability, hard work, and Empire. How much this influenced the Christianity of that time, I am not really equipped to say, but I would guess, quite a lot.
There is quite a memorable portrayal of Christian hypocrisy in Eliot's 'Middlemarch', in the shape of Bulstrode, a banker who is sort of evangelical, and also a fraud and a murderer.
Presumably, Eliot is giving a critique both of contemporary Christianity and also bourgeois moral values, and arguably, the two had become intertwined.
But then Christianity is more complex than that, and contains radical elements, who are critical of bourgeois mores and capitalism itself. An interesting example is the anarchist Kropotkin, who saw aspects of Christianity as critical of Roman society, and indeed, anti-hierarchical.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
who is sort of evangelical, and also a fraud and a murderer.
who of us isn't?
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Reminds me of Herbert's great poem, 'Redemption', about a man who looks for his 'rich lord', and looks for him in high society, but:
At length I heard a ragged noise and mirth
Of thieves and murderers; there I him espied,
Who straight, Your suit is granted, said, and died.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
It is possible to work hard and sacrifice for something else than personal success.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
All right let's get Weber out there.
He started his idea of a Christian work ethic by taking the doctrine of a secular vocation that everyone has from Luther. He then used a notion of Calvinism to change it to be more in line with Herbert's Elixir and attributes to it the success of the United States of America!
Now that is some big claim but it does not make "working hard" a Christian virtue.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Sacrifice and hard work in the context of the Christian faith surely means sharing everything we have been given, generously, regardless of the cost to us.
Success isn't about us, it's about whether or not God's good name has been promoted, as is the aim of our hard work as ambassadors for Christ.
If we occasionally know the peace of God which passes all understanding, if we are able to sometimes know God when we take time out to be still, that's a free gift to be enjoyed. And shared.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Sacrifice I think has other roots. I think it comes from the idea of there being different colours of martyrdom. The tradition holds is that those who suffer red martyrdom would go straight to heaven. When the early church was highly persecuted this comforted people and members really did expect martyrdom to happen. However when things go easier the question came as to what the equivalent was and thus you got the "white" and "blue" martyrdom.
Whether this is healthy theology I leave to others. Actually I don't but I have not worked through it enough to say where I stand yet.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
My experience of the church is that it tends to say "work hard for the church" - the evangelical/low-church wing seems to have taken on the earn-your-salvation idea that Luther was so anti.
And I think Karl is right - Wally seems the most contented. He knows he could achieve more, but he has found a way to have an easy life. At my stage of life, I can already look back, say "I was a contender, and it got screwed up". So now I have come to realise that my work and my sacrifice are not what will bring me "success" or benefit - it is as much about good luck.
I have worked hard and sacrificed. So now trying the Wally approach seems quite attractive.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Wally seems the most contented. He knows he could achieve more, but he has found a way to have an easy life. At my stage of life, I can already look back, say "I was a contender, and it got screwed up". So now I have come to realise that my work and my sacrifice are not what will bring me "success" or benefit - it is as much about good luck.
People define success differently. I was taught the "work hard, climb the ladder" definition but discovered the ladder goes nowhere that I care about, while costing a lot I do care about like time with family and friends and enjoying nature and so on.
Wally is content because he knows the supposed "more" he could achieve isn't worth the cost.
As to the church continuously demanding "sacrifice, give until it hurts" - Jesus is the sacrifice. Which doesn't mean ignore the needs of others; if we had confidence that God is in charge and provides, we could enjoy appropriate giving instead of suffering the pain of worrying that giving to help another today means starving in our own old age.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I recently had the opportunity to catch up with a friend from long, long ago. In those years, I went from starving grad student to starving musician to a great "day job" and a mortgage. He went from starving musician to barely-employed musician to underpaid home-care worker. He told me he admired my success.
I don't know what success is. All I know is that people who think they are successful are happier than people who think they are unsuccessful.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It seems that worldly success is often one of two things:
1. A place where you have to work even harder, sacrifice even more; or
2. A place where you earn enough money to have to work less, do more of what you want, maybe retire early.
Wally seems to have achieved the latter, without actually earning the money to do it. So maybe he is successful.
The church definition of success is not that different. It seems to be a combination of "do all the work" and "conform and fit in, and don't think for yourself". In some areas, it is definitely "write a book, speak at the festivals".
But "being more Christlike" - however you interpret this - does not seem to feature in the church idea of success. In fact, many aspects of Christlikeness are totally contra to the church success myth.
I know that I am a total failure in terms of the church. But I also know that this doesn't mean I have to be a failure as a Christian, and I believe that I am being a better Christian without the church. So what does success mean in these terms?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
My experience of the church is that it tends to say "work hard for the church" - the evangelical/low-church wing seems to have taken on the earn-your-salvation idea that Luther was so anti.
Part of the problem is that church as we know it is a high maintenance sort of institution. Many churches are closing now because there aren't the people available to do the work required, and the ones who remain are left under more stress.
If we want to develop a 'do less' theology then we have to accept that church closure is an acceptable, or even a desirable outcome. 'Successful' evangelical churches won't remain successful without any effort. Even 'hipster' churches that meet in coffee shops and pubs require lots of work from someone.
As for Luther, it seems that he was a very busy man in his church life and in his private devotions, despite preaching that good works didn't bring salvation. It's hard to imagine that he would really have sanctioned a highly private, laid-back, churchless Christian existence.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
At my stage of life, I can already look back, say "I was a contender, and it got screwed up".
That resonates with me, too.
I've been thinking and reading about the way in which the things we hold to be true, we describe to ourselves and to others in terms of stories (or narratives if you want to be posh). Some stories are 'good' (or powerful, or convincing, or perhaps just well-used) and come over easy to our audience, and ourselves. These might be ones involving promotion, influence, wealth and perhaps even family love. Trying to describe a life which does not work in all or any of these themes often sounds wonky and unconvincing.
Before my life got rather more 'alternative' I was a (successful ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) science lecturer, and I realise I used to employ story devices in describing even maths. Now, lacking a convincing beginning, middle and end I find my life unsatisfactory in description to myself, let alone anyone else. This probably makes me sound defensive at times, and it certainly implies a lack of success.
I suspect in church we are discomfited by the sense that our Christian story sounds wonky and broken to most people outside and perhaps to ourselves too; maybe it was ever so (foolishness to the Greeks, blasphemy to the Jews ).
I feel a pressure to conclude these paragraphs for your contemplation with a suitably uplifting finale which makes some kind of conclusive point and renders my narrative (this post) successful. But I don't have one. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you failure.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
All of us will have to explain at some point how it was that we failed to enjoy simple things like ice cream, playing with children, laughing, sex, sunsets.
We will also have to explain how it was that we worshipped God as we imagined God to be, rather than how we encountered God in other human beings.
Work, hard or otherwise, cuts into our days. The conspiracy has been to erode our play time, have us recode work as play, and then to entice us to be busy with what we think is meaningful work to fill up our empty souls.
-above unoriginal, though in my words, which I won't blame on Jean Vanier. I thought these thoughts resonated with much of I read above.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
My experience of the church is that it tends to say "work hard for the church" ...
Part of the problem is that church as we know it is a high maintenance sort of institution. Many churches are closing now because there aren't the people available to do the work required, and the ones who remain are left under more stress.
If we want to develop a 'do less' theology then we have to accept that church closure is an acceptable, or even a desirable outcome.
It's not "do less" but "do differently." People doing what they love are often very busy - think of when we pursue hobbies, often getting totally immersed in the activity.
But the focus is the activity itself, not the "supporting structure." If you draw, or play football, or tutor kids in math, only a small amount of the total time is spent on taking care of the location's needs.
The question is how to do church in a way that is focused on whatever we think the activity of church is (and Shipmates will strongly disagree with each other about that), allocating only a small proportion of resources to taking care of the location's and organization's needs.
If (for some) the definition of church inherently requires a dedicated building with fine arts and precious metals and paid-professional stylized ritual and large crowds - then maybe we need to look for a model at how the fishermen did that instead of how the later rich kings did it.
Or maybe as in seeing beauty in ditching the dusty non-functional heirlooms to live a simpler life, we need to see beauty in ditching the dusty non-functional inherited buildings and live a simpler church. Get our eyes off what we are losing and focus on what we are gaining; but it's hard to have a vision to work towards of something we haven't seen.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And what of those who sacrifice and work hard, and still fail to achieve? What of those who are poor in the worlds eyes? of them all.
It is their fault. Their failure is purely their fault.
Those who succeed do so completely on their own hard work and/or natural talent.
See, all fixed. Now if you want to help those who have/are fucked up, you can. And Christianity generally says you should. But you are under no obligation to fix the impediments to their success, because they don't exist.
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On the less cynical side: History and humans. Every major religious moment and sub-division is shaped by this. We like to pretend that whatever variation we believe is pure and true, but that is obviously rubbish.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
All of us will have to explain at some point how it was that we failed to enjoy simple things like ice cream, playing with children, laughing, sex, sunsets.
I would concur with this, and push it further. We will have to explain why we put effort into Doing Things, when we should have spent the time Being. We will have to explain why we had to have a Spiritual Retreat to Find God, and miss seeing him in the simple pleasures like eating ice cream, when we miss seeing him in the here and now.
I suppose that is some of my frustration in the OP: we have to Do Things, support Nice Churches, have Accessible Services, when people can meet God without all of these things, and we might do better helping people engage with God where they are, not in some Special Event which is where we are.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
But you can't expect your church friends to be sympathetic when you insist that church life doesn't really matter. You're basically telling them that they're irrelevant, and no one wants to hear that.
CofE MOTR churches don't really require lots of people getting involved in order to exist. Their clergy get paid the same whether they have small congregations or a large ones. MOTR Methodist clergy don't lose out professionally if they have to close yet another church.
You probably need to make more MOTR church friends; they're more used to meeting Christians who don't go to church, and they don't feel threatened by that.
[ 10. July 2015, 18:14: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm another "could have been a contendah" though I have to admit I deliberately turned off that path at age 18 when I chose to go into missions. Now, of course, the consequences which were once theoretical are all too real, and though I'm really glad I did what I did, I'm equally glad I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I probably wouldn't have had the guts otherwise.
I like Wally. His only real flaws are a) being a lazy ass, and b) a certain amount of dishonesty when it comes to taking pay for what you're not doing. But he does see his situation clearly enough to know what what he's being expected to do is a waste of time, and to refuse to wreck his life for no reason.
It seems to me that real success is becoming what God means you to be. Of course, the rub comes in finding out what that is. Some bits are obvious--becoming more Christ-like, more loving, wiser, more merciful, and so forth. But when it comes to "should I be a writer or a programmer?" you've got to work that one out individually with your God.
And becoming what God means you to be is quite different from becoming what other people want you to be, whether that's the world, your family, or even the church. They usually get it wrong.
I know damn well that the world judges me a failure, and large bits of my family and the church do, too. This smarts a bit, but ultimately doesn't matter, because I'm slowly learning not to give a shit what they think. It only matters what God thinks. Though at this point in life (nearly 50 for me), it's becoming more and more clear exactly how many eggs I've put in that single basket--which is kind of scary! As Paul says, "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied." (1 Cor. 15:19) Basically everything I have and am is now riding on Christ, and I feel like I'm at the top of the rollercoaster staring down.
Though of course, logically speaking, there's no other real alternative. If Christ is not who he says he is, and does not keep the promises he's made, then my life is screwed regardless of whether I win the Nobel Prize and have endless cabana boys bringing me drinks around the swimming pool. I'll still be dead sooner or later. Being a contender in those terms just doesn't last.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And Hard Work - if you work hard or are lazy, you still end up dead, thus says Qoheleth, author of Ecclesiasties.
The Apostle is pretty clear in 2 Thessalonians that you should pull your own weight, and not sit around freeloading off others. I'm not sure Wally stands up too well in that light.
(Do note, though, that this is very different from saying that it's a moral good to work long hours to buy the big house with the pool.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
We will have to explain why we had to have a Spiritual Retreat to Find God, and miss seeing him in the simple pleasures like eating ice cream, when we miss seeing him in the here and now.
I suppose that is some of my frustration in the OP: we have to Do Things, support Nice Churches, have Accessible Services, when people can meet God without all of these things, and we might do better helping people engage with God where they are, not in some Special Event which is where we are.
Please, please tell me how to get everyone to do this! -- there are those people, I think we've all met them, who do what you say. But they seem frightfully rare.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
SvitlanaV2 - the thing is, my experience is that by just associating with them - and I still do associate with church groups - is that I may be accepted, but I am not a success. That is my problem. And I am not telling people they are irrelevant, I am telling them that the system and the structure that they put all of their work and time into may not be what they should be doing.
I think Wally is fundamentally lazy. But I think that he also realises that he will make no difference whether he works or not. The company that he works for (which, of course, could not survive in the real world) will continue to irrespective of his work.
Given that the company is a corrupt and manipulative business that seems to cause more damage than anything else, one could argue that he is doing his little bit to fight the evil company. By not working for a corrupt company, is he not actually, somehow, doing some good? That would shock him.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suppose that is some of my frustration in the OP: we have to Do Things, support Nice Churches, have Accessible Services, when people can meet God without all of these things, and we might do better helping people engage with God where they are, not in some Special Event which is where we are.
I've been thinking about the demand "you have to do things you don't value" ("sacrifice") while I'm reading a board on career development.
In career planning, you sacrifice in the sense of choosing. You can't (usually) stay home all day with the kids while advancing in an office career. You either give up the good of extended time with the kids or you give up the good of the office career you enjoyed. You sacrifice one good in your life for another good in your life.
In a church - the church needs money for the electric bill, Sunday school materials, new choir robes, better guitars. *I* need my money for food, replacement shoes, a car tuneup, a weekend trip to Mom. "Sacrifice" is used to mean "you should suffer so I can be happy." Bad message, dehumanizing, no wonder resentment results.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
SvitlanaV2 - the thing is, my experience is that by just associating with them - and I still do associate with church groups - is that I may be accepted, but I am not a success. That is my problem. And I am not telling people they are irrelevant, I am telling them that the system and the structure that they put all of their work and time into may not be what they should be doing.
Well, most people don't want to be told what to do by outsiders, do they? Moreover, churchgoers have a lot invested in the current system, and they have no experience of the alternative to see how it could 'work'.
As you may know, Frank Viola (of 'Pagan Christianity?' fame) says its not worth trying to argue churchgoing Christians into changing their theology of being church, and I agree with him. Really, if you want to get something radical done, you have to do it yourself. You have to create a churchless community of faith through your own efforts. Of course, this is extremely hard, and few attempts achieve 'success'. If you don't mind that, fine, but Christians in more standard settings probably won't admire you. That's basic sociology of religion, isn't it?
But I do think we need to develop a theology of failure, of church decline, of secularisation, of disillusionment with church etc. Coming from a shriveling Nonconformist church culture, I don't think there's anywhere near enough honesty about our failures! The evangelical churches you associate with are more 'successful', so they probably aren't the right people to do this kind of theorising, but perhaps the post-evangelical, emergent set could look at it from their own perspective.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Before my life got rather more 'alternative' I was a (successful ) science lecturer, and I realise I used to employ story devices in describing even maths. Now, lacking a convincing beginning, middle and end I find my life unsatisfactory in description to myself, let alone anyone else. This probably makes me sound defensive at times, and it certainly implies a lack of success.
M-in-M:
But that is only in terms of worldly "success".
My reading of your posts on other threads suggests to me that what you do have now is a family that you love and who love you as you are. And that is "success" in a very real sense.
I know because my own career trajectory is not too dissimilar to yours. Although I have had some modest professional achievements, I have not attained the worldly eminence that some of my contemporaries attained. But when I see what they missed out on to achieve their "success" , I have no regrets that I did it my way.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hey Tukai
That's kind of you, and an encouragement - thanks.
I think I failed (here we go again) to get over how useful I'm finding the 'story' idea. What you tell me, I (rationally) believe myself - but because the story it makes sounds to me rather brittle (perhaps because certain close family members deny its validity most vigorously) I don't think I, or anyone who might ask me to tell it, goes away with the satisfactory feeling of a solid story well-told.
The 'solid', emotionally-and-rationally-satisfying-story-thing - the 'ring of truth'. There's something inductive about it - a bit like the 'bad vibe' a dodgy bit of maths development might have once given me, or the 'good vibe' I got when a more promising line of approach somehow popped into my head. Having the 'ring of truth' somehow seems congruent with success.
Trying to stop myself dragging the thread off sideways - Wally manages to subvert his hopeless situation with a narrative which totally has the ring-of-truth, and the great running joke is that the total success of his stories stands in such contrast to the comically-wobbly 'work hard' stories of the broken corporation, which are ironically promoting...success.
I hope you managed, like Wally, to tell your own story as the kind of rollicking my-way fable which leaves everyone (and most importantly you) sure that it's a good tale. For me, I don't yet know - if my kids turn out alright, if my marriage endures, if I overcome a sense that I have abandoned a task given... Psshht. We're meant to have more faith, aren't we.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
When I was unemployed, it used to annoy me that one of the first questions people ask when you meet them for the first time is some variant on 'So what do you do for a living?'
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
But I do think we need to develop a theology of failure, of church decline, of secularisation, of disillusionment with church etc. Coming from a shriveling Nonconformist church culture, I don't think there's anywhere near enough honesty about our failures! The evangelical churches you associate with are more 'successful', so they probably aren't the right people to do this kind of theorising, but perhaps the post-evangelical, emergent set could look at it from their own perspective.
Absolutely. I think the problem with many churches is that they have to be "successful", and so end up defining "success" in a way that suits them. "We may not be growing, but we are holding our own, which is positive against the national trend". Or "We have had 15 new people this year", ignoring the 20 who left - or even the 10 who left, but were core members of the church.
It is my firm belief that the organised church is dying - I think that is clear in any reasonable context. The problem is, those talented people who could be redefining spiritual community and fellowship tend to be focussed on how to redefine the existing church to draw more people in.
Wally is the one, I think, who sees that the venture is futile, and so doesn't bother actually helping it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
When I started my career I wanted to work hard, achieve, be promoted, run the universe and then be home in time for tea and cakes. It didn't happen.
Instead my life became less about work and much more about mental illness. Not a decision I would have made myself but one that has taught me a lot. Now work is somewhere I go to get paid. I work hard while I'm there because I believe if I'm being paid I'm morally obliged to give my best. Then I come home and stop thinking about work. I am not going to sacrifice for work. Promotion is unimportant, achievement is unimportant. I am still the same grade as I was when I started the job only I've gone from young and keen to knowledgeable old lag. And I've found I'm happy with that.
Instead I've discovered life is about enjoying the nights I sleep well. About reading books that entertain and teach me and raise my wonder at the world. About making a model out of meccano and being so pleased it works. About looking at photos of my nieces or nephew or friends children dressed in clothes I've knitted for them and remembering how much I love them.
I see God in all these little things. I don't see God in fighting for a promotion at work. The mental illness has shown me how quickly and easily my life could have gone from relative comfort to society's perception of a fuck up. At times it was one stupid decision away from it. When you've been to that point you realise what is worth fighting for and it's the seconds of pleasure when you see a ladybird not the third hour of overtime while you bollock a junior colleague.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think the problem with many churches is that they have to be "successful", and so end up defining "success" in a way that suits them. "We may not be growing, but we are holding our own, which is positive against the national trend". Or "We have had 15 new people this year", ignoring the 20 who left - or even the 10 who left, but were core members of the church.
It is my firm belief that the organised church is dying - I think that is clear in any reasonable context. The problem is, those talented people who could be redefining spiritual community and fellowship tend to be focussed on how to redefine the existing church to draw more people in.
If these people are running dying churches then perhaps they're not all that talented after all! And in any case, you simply want them to switch one kind of failure for another....
True, the organised church is dying, and someone somewhere needs to develop a viable kind of communal churchless Christianity. But I don't think all Christians will end up in such communities, because some of them are okay where they are, including some of the leaders. You need to find the disgruntled people. If you could prove that you had a little group of fellow travellers with you then perhaps you could make some of your church friends listen a bit more.
I also think the CofE remaining established is the most obvious example in England of the entrenchment of the 'organised church'. There are few signs that its status is likely to change soon. There's a gap in the culture for a popular disestablishment movement to be developed, and maybe the Christian movement you want to create could hitch itself to that bandwagon.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I'm with you, Chive.
I wish sometimes that these conversations were with folks around a table in the pub.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
As always Chive, I agree. It is a pity that it so often takes a crisis to make people realise what is important, and then that is taken as the reason they no longer chase "success".
Wally seems to be someone who realises what is important, without having gone through this, for which I respect him. Yes, he is lazy, self-centred etc, but maybe this is the right thing to do. Maybe it is right to see what we want and need, where we find God. Maybe it is right to not work all hours for others.
Chive - I think you are not lazy or selfish, but I think you have found your own priorities and stick by them. To my mind, that is success.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Is Wally lazy? Or has he realised that most of what he's asked to do is pointless, so why do it? It's worthless to the company, so they don't lose out when he drinks coffee instead of working.
Example: http://dilbert.com/strip/2002-02-27
I don't call avoiding pointless work lazy; I call it rational.
Isn't everyone basically "lazy" on Wally's terms? Wouldn't everyone rather do what they like rather than what they have to be paid to do? But then again I'm one of those people who thinks that the people who say that if they won the lottery they'd still go into work are from another species on another planet in another reality.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Karl - I think he is lazy, but he also realises that nothing he could do is worth while - so he is also efficient. And yes, for many, his lifestyle would define success: Doing as little as possible, drinking all the coffee you want, and getting paid for it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The one thing I'd like to see Wally do is to actually go find something worthy of his effort. His company clearly isn't, I don't fault him for realizing that. But there's got to be something he could do that wouldn't be a total waste of time.
Hey, maybe he could become a coffee critic? A new storyline!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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