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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Recycling the Bible
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Apologies that this is a bit long, but the questions I would like to ask are: How do you react to what I talk about here? Do you think it was sort of sacrilegious, if so why? Do you think, 'So what?' I would be most interested to hear what you think.
today I did something I've been meaning to do for a while, that is, remove the covers (leather-type) from the Bible and the Book of Common Prayer I was given as a child, threw them away, separated the pages into chunks and threw them in the recycle bag. While I could still read, I had kept it as literature and reference - although I had hardly ever used it as such.*
The principal reason for this was that when I die, I aim for as little work as possible for my sons to do- I did not want them to feel obliged in any way to hold on to something they would not use which would use up space in their house. If by any chance they wish to find a quote or anything (family all atheists anyway), they can find it on the internet or in a Library. (Sons say, 'Good idea, Mum!')
One of the reasons I hesitated for so long was the vestiges of a feeling, instilled in childhood, when CofE beliefs formed the unquestioned backcloth of life in the 1940s, that this was somehow just not the thing to do. I knew this was daft - I don't put blinkers on myself for anything and had held the conversation with myself many times and understood well why I hesitated!
However, as I expected, I am completely certain that I feel not the slightest twinge of hesitation now.
*I read a book years ago called 'Secrets of the Lost Ark', which quoted the Bible quite often in support of a claim that gold could be turned in to 'white powder'! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Do what you like, the leather and paper isn't sacred - just the message they contain. God isn't going to judge you for being nasty to a book, he's going to judge you for rejecting the message. At least that's what the book you just destroyed says anyway.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
daronmedway
Thank you for your response. . What is the 'message', do you think? It is extremely mixed, isn't it?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Hi SusanDoris
I think your actions are entirely consistent with your stated beliefs, in terms of Christianity, recycling and leaving less for your sons to do.
I am a little concerned, however, with regard to people turning gold into white powder. I used to run a pub which was full of people who were always keen to convert their gold into white powder. Didn't do them much good, as I recall.
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Yes, and society is plagued with a fair number of people who want to turn their white powder into gold too.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
This gets a shrug from me in general. Bibles and the like are not magic objects. If these were nice editions (as the leather suggests) and in decent shape, then I would ask why you didn't sell them through one of the many online used book markets - or why you didn't give them to some charity to sell. For that matter, you could have simply asked here, on SoF, whether somebody wants these particular books / editions, and just passed them on that way.
While we are at it, if someone has a "Knox New Testament: Chanticleer Edition (1946)" or a full Knox bible which has both Psalters (Clementine Vulgate and the 1945 one approved by Pius XII) like for example the "Sheed & Ward three volume Knox Bible in hardcover (1950-1951)", then I would gladly rescue those from your recycling bin. I'm also looking for any Revised English Bible (REB) with Apocrypha that is bound in leather, from either Oxford or Cambridge. This includes the Oxford Study Bible.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
Hi SusanDoris
I think your actions are entirely consistent with your stated beliefs, in terms of Christianity, recycling and leaving less for your sons to do.
I am a little concerned, however, with regard to people turning gold into white powder. I used to run a pub which was full of people who were always keen to convert their gold into white powder. Didn't do them much good, as I recall.
Thank you for your reply. I hadn't thought of the 'white powder' in terms of drugs; in the book, it is suggested that it was some magical substance which was all that was needed to feed the pharaoh or something!
[ 09. July 2015, 16:47: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
The bottom line - it's just a book. There's nothing magical or special about a Bible. It's paper (and possibly leather).
If there is any reason to think that this particular Bible is significant or rare, then by all means try and sell it to a collector or give it to some one who might be interested. But the vast majority of Bibles and prayer books are "bog standard". No-one really wants them and charity shops and the like are usually filled with second hand Bibles which never get sold.
So - recycle it!
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Yes, and society is plagued with a fair number of people who want to turn their white powder into gold too.
Thank you for your post. Yes, of course. Very sad but true.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This gets a shrug from me in general. Bibles and the like are not magic objects. If these were nice editions (as the leather suggests) and in decent shape, then I would ask why you didn't sell them through one of the many online used book markets - or why you didn't give them to some charity to sell.
Thank you for your reply. The reasons are: I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god. The books themselves were a size and design very common at the time. Whatever money a charity would gain by trying to sell them I'd rather give them in cash, but, as I say, I would not have passed them on on principle. quote:
While we are at it, if someone has a "Knox New Testament: Chanticleer Edition (1946)" or a full Knox bible which has both Psalters (Clementine Vulgate and the 1945 one approved by Pius XII) like for example the "Sheed & Ward three volume Knox Bible in hardcover (1950-1951)", then I would gladly rescue those from your recycling bin. I'm also looking for any Revised English Bible (REB) with Apocrypha that is bound in leather, from either Oxford or Cambridge. This includes the Oxford Study Bible.
I'm afraid I'm certainly no help there, but may I ask why you would wish to have these items?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
The bottom line - it's just a book. There's nothing magical or special about a Bible. It's paper (and possibly leather).
If there is any reason to think that this particular Bible is significant or rare, then by all means try and sell it to a collector or give it to some one who might be interested. But the vast majority of Bibles and prayer books are "bog standard". No-one really wants them and charity shops and the like are usually filled with second hand Bibles which never get sold.
Agreed. However, I thought it was interesting that the very, very faint vestiges of childhood strictures about not destroying books, particularly the Bible, still hun around somewhere.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
daronmedway
Thank you for your response. . What is the 'message', do you think? It is extremely mixed, isn't it?
There's an over-arching message which is about rescue. Take it or leave it.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: I thought it was interesting that the very, very faint vestiges of childhood strictures about not destroying books, particularly the Bible, still hun around somewhere.
Well, if a book can still be useful to someone, I prefer giving it away instead of destroying it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The reasons are: I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
See, now that is not "morally neutral". At that point you have gone beyond recycling, and engaged in a kind of anti-evangelism. Whether that is justified or not depend on how one views the world, and obviously we would not agree on that.
However, IMHO this still does not explain why you did not offer these books to some people who already believe in God, e.g., by advertising them here. It is unlikely that such a gift would have made a difference to their faith, other than by reminding them that atheists can be nice and tolerant.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I'm afraid I'm certainly no help there, but may I ask why you would wish to have these items?
Because the are relatively rare now, and I would enjoy seeing the artwork / design / typography of the artistic Chanticleer Edition, am intellectually and aesthetically interested in Knox' other Psalter translation (which I do not own so far), and because I would like to have the REB/A translation, which I enjoy reading, in a physical form that is pleasing (nice to touch and behold) and durable.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Don't really know why you've posted this, SusanDoris. If you're so happy in your atheism, why should what Christians might or might not think about what you've done bother you? And are you perhaps a little disappointed that we've basically just shrugged our shoulders and said 'sure, leather and paper is leather and paper'? Were you hoping, deep down, that we might be just a little bit shocked?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
The bottom line - it's just a book. There's nothing magical or special about a Bible. It's paper (and possibly leather).
Agreed, but that wouldn't help me at all. I tend to treat all books carefully. I've never been able to bring myself to even write in a book (other than an inscription at the front), not even underlining text in a textbook. Or a Bible. Tearing the cover off is something I couldn't do to any book, I'm afraid.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
What a strange comment from someone who claims to value intellectual freedom and intellectual honesty. You do not want to be responsible for someone being exposed to information and being able to come to their own conclusions about that information?
If the goal is to keep others from reading the books for fear they might actually believe them, then perhaps a good old-fashioned book burning is what's called for.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
What a strange comment from someone who claims to value intellectual freedom and intellectual honesty. You do not want to be responsible for someone being exposed to information and being able to come to their own conclusions about that information?
The problem is, how far do you take this? As an example: At the time of his death, my father had, in his extensive book collection, a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I earnestly requested my mother to throw it in the bin, rather than take it to the charity shop along with his other books. Yet, on the whole, I would say that I see myself as someone who "value[s] intellectual freedom and intellectual honesty". There's allowing people access to information, and then there's providing people with access to a load of made-up tripe, written with a particular agenda in mind, the acceptance of which has arguably resulted in a great deal of unpleasantness for a large number of people. Now, although the preceding represents my opinion of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it seems to me that it could equally apply to the Bible for someone with an atheist perspective.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
There's an over-arching message which is about rescue. Take it or leave it.
Thank you for reply. quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Well, if a book can still be useful to someone, I prefer giving it away instead of destroying it.
Yes, I do know what you mean actually, but this particular book of mine would only have cluttered up space if I had left it in the cupboard, and just possibly might have done harm.
I’ll add another post later to explain how I began splitting books up into bits - for a wholy rational reason, I assure you!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The reasons are: I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
See, now that is not "morally neutral". At that point you have gone beyond recycling, and engaged in a kind of anti-evangelism. Whether that is justified or not depend on how one views the world, and obviously we would not agree on that.
Yes, I suppose I am taking a moral stand here, but realise all too well that it is only a drop in the ocean, and that it will take vastly more than that to move religious beliefs into a minority position. quote:
However, IMHO this still does not explain why you did not offer these books to some people who already believe in God, e.g., by advertising them here. It is unlikely that such a gift would have made a difference to their faith, other than by reminding them that atheists can be nice and tolerant.
My conscience would not now allow me to have done that, as I would know I had taken a backward step, even at my stage in life. quote:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I'm afraid I'm certainly no help there, but may I ask why you would wish to have these items?
Because the are relatively rare now, and I would enjoy seeing the artwork / design / typography of the artistic Chanticleer Edition, am intellectually and aesthetically interested in Knox' other Psalter translation (which I do not own so far), and because I would like to have the REB/A translation, which I enjoy reading, in a physical form that is pleasing (nice to touch and behold) and durable.
Yes, I thought it was probably for those reasons. The artistry and creative skills of those who produced such beautiful work are treasures indeed. The difference in our views there is that you might well give some of the credit to God, whereas I give it all to the amazing fact of evolution.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Books are tools. If you don't want it, it's nice to let someone else who does take it. If not, you could just quietly recycle it.
You seem to be hoping that your destruction will outrage and to take pleasure in destroying something that has made you unhappy.
All well and good, although I don't think many will be outraged. I think you give the book too much power in your life. A break up is best not if you're snarling at someone, but if you see them and can't quite place the face for a moment or two.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Don't really know why you've posted this, SusanDoris. If you're so happy in your atheism, why should what Christians might or might not think about what you've done bother you? And are you perhaps a little disappointed that we've basically just shrugged our shoulders and said 'sure, leather and paper is leather and paper'? Were you hoping, deep down, that we might be just a little bit shocked?
The reason for posting here is that I knew that the responses would be very interesting, that there would be varying view points which I could well not have thought of and from which i would learn. Whatever those views are, they do not 'bother' me, but add to the interest I have in discussions. Disappointment or shock in replies doesn't come into it - and that is one of the reasons I enjoy being a part of SoF, as a reader and occasional poster.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
What a strange comment from someone who claims to value intellectual freedom and intellectual honesty. You do not want to be responsible for someone being exposed to information and being able to come to their own conclusions about that information?
Good point! And yes, I do value intellectual freedom. However, I think I can claim that the throwing away of the two small items will have zero effect on that! In a minuscule way I hope the paper recycled will help towards less landfill. quote:
If the goal is to keep others from reading the books for fear they might actually believe them, then perhaps a good old-fashioned book burning is what's called for.
No, I wouldn’t go that far!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
As an example: At the time of his death, my father had, in his extensive book collection, a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I earnestly requested my mother to throw it in the bin, rather than take it to the charity shop along with his other books. Yet, on the whole, I would say that I see myself as someone who "value[s] intellectual freedom and intellectual honesty". There's allowing people access to information, and then there's providing people with access to a load of made-up tripe, written with a particular agenda in mind, the acceptance of which has arguably resulted in a great deal of unpleasantness for a large number of people. Now, although the preceding represents my opinion of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it seems to me that it could equally apply to the Bible for someone with an atheist perspective.
Thank you for your post - very interesting points.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Now, although the preceding represents my opinion of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it seems to me that it could equally apply to the Bible for someone with an atheist perspective.
I think that is silly. Yes, much evil has been done with the Bible as justification. But so has much good.
The protocols are purely evil, plain and simple. They were created to engender hate.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
What would it take to change your mind Susan Doris? I remember my Dad about 3 years before he died reading through the OT. He was a committed catholic but said he did not want to die without reading it all. Interestingly he was fascinated by Ecclesiastes. At his age he could look back on all the" useless, useless, useless" stuff in his life.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Yes, I suppose I am taking a moral stand here, but realise all too well that it is only a drop in the ocean, and that it will take vastly more than that to move religious beliefs into a minority position.
If you really thought it was insignificant, you wouldn't make so much ado about it.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
My conscience would not now allow me to have done that, as I would know I had taken a backward step, even at my stage in life.
Well, I guess it is nice that you attribute such powers to the bible and prayer books. If the mere act of owning nicer editions of such books makes one more pious, then I'm surely on my way to sainthood.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
The artistry and creative skills of those who produced such beautiful work are treasures indeed. The difference in our views there is that you might well give some of the credit to God, whereas I give it all to the amazing fact of evolution.
Mostly I give credit to people, craftsmen and artists. And when you destroy a fine bible, then that concerns me more as a bibliophile than as a Christian. Unless it is really a rare bible, we usually have tens of thousands of copies of the text that is getting destroyed. But we may not have many copies of that particular physical form, and even if we do, it is simply a shame to destroy something that was crafted well and with care out of good materials.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Personally, I'm not in favour of destroying books for moral reasons. In an era of freely available information - on the internet or in very cheap bookshops - this seems like a pretty petty activity.
But I do wonder if the OP is trying to provoke a reaction by posting about it here. We regularly throw out books (usually those we bought from a charity shop and read until destroyed). Would you be interested in my moral qualms about destroying Dickens or Tolstoy? I doubt it.
A few years ago I was talking to an Imam about the fashion in some parts of the USA (and elsewhere) to destroy the Koran in public. He said that it was a simple provocation and that destroying the book did not destroy the truth of the words.
To me that is the right way to think about it. You are not doing anything, SusanDoris, to affect those who believe.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
We have a HUGE and incredibly heavy old family Bible (my husband's family). The sham leather cover is falling off, and Mr.N has removed the family pages, with dates, photos, etc. as we were going to throw it away. But I kept it, partly because I didn't like to throw it away, and where would we throw it? partly because it has the most glorious black and white engravings on so many pages of various parts of the Bible stories - God in big white robe, angels with huge feathered wings, Israelites in voluminous white robes, you know the type, and partly because being so heavy, it acts as an anchor to a rather dodgy bookcase that would otherwise fall over.
All good reasons to keep it, I think!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
All good reasons to keep it, I think!
You could have that bible rebound, for example by Leonard's. He may even be able to re-include the family pages (if you didn't chop them up too badly).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
An interesting example would be to look at books that I find objectionable. For example Left Behind, I find its theology and morality despicable, and its writing horrendous. And the book may even be dangerous in that it has had influenced a swathe of population that carries weight in US politics.
What if I had a copy of the book and wanted to get rid of it (for obvious reasons)? Would I destroy it? Hmm, not sure. Apparently the objection to destroying books is rather deeply ingrained in me.
I might give it away to someone. But I would tell this person what I think about the book.
I don't think I would give it to a social project that has a library lending out books to its people though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
If you have read your Bible, you will know that there is a wealth of wonderful wisdom within it, and you will know that reading its books does not necessarily lead one to believe in the existence of God.
If one did reach such a conclusion, the responsibility would not fall upon any previous owner of the book.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Bibles and the like are not magic objects.
Would you say the same if what SusanDoris was throwing out was old rosary beads ? Miraculous medals and brown scapulars ?
In other words, are you saying that the category "holy objects which it would be wrong to destroy" is empty ? Or that it just doesn't happen to include Bibles ?
I find myself in two minds on this.
On the one hand, I'm attracted to daronmedway's suggestion that the physical pages - the hardware - don't matter; what matters is the software, the information content, the message.
On the other hand, if we believe that, where does it stop ? Are we happy enough to see a church building that is surplus to requirements being bulldozed ? Or turned into a nightclub ? It's only a pile of stones, right ? What's important is the faith and worship of the congregation that used it. Which is unaffected by what happens to the building they no longer need. Like a soul that has no need of the body after death ? No reverence for bodies after death, then ?
I'm not at all convinced that I'm prepared to go all the way on this one. Or that you'd be with me if I did. But is there a clear stopping place somewhere between Bibles and bodies ?
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I find the attitudes toward physical objects which relate to ones faith interesting. I think it is well known that Muslims have a much more reverent attitude to physical copies of the Quran, and it would not surprise me if some christians felt the same, maybe also towards religious icons.
I suppose at root it's the idea that you throw out what is worthless, and so it could be taken as a statement that the Bible is worthless.
It's interesting that an Atheist may fear that someone reading it might be converted.
I'm reluctant to throw out books, on the basis that I wouldn't want to hand them on. The only two books I've done that to are Anton Szandor LaVey's Satanic Bible and a set of academic papers attempting to justify sex with minors!
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I've found recycling the Bible through a postmodern compost heap most fertile.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
On the one hand, I'm attracted to daronmedway's suggestion that the physical pages - the hardware - don't matter; what matters is the software, the information content, the message.
On the other hand, if we believe that, where does it stop ? Are we happy enough to see a church building that is surplus to requirements being bulldozed ? Or turned into a nightclub ? It's only a pile of stones, right ?
But this happens all the time. I'm fascinated by what happens to abandoned church buildings. In my city I've seen them become nightclubs, mechanics' workshops, mosques, and gurdwaras. In other places they become homes, restaurants, shops. Many more are just demolished.
Some denominations are closing churches at a rapid rate, but I agree that there's a definite ambivalence about the process. Clergy who enunciate that 'the church is not the building' are not usually seeking to promote either a churchless or a tenantship Christianity; if necessary, they close one church building in a suitably respectful fashion, and move on to work in another. The Nonconformists have few restrictions on what they do with closed church buildings either. They happily sell them to the highest bidder, regardless of purpose.
I'm ambivalent about this issue myself. I've had to put readable Bibles out for recycling as part of my work in a charity shop. I've had to see my church closed and sold into the service of another religion. I suppose I see it all as part of the secularising environment in which we live. The sacred symbolism of books and buildings is hard to maintain in a fast changing world.
As for the sanctity of the body, most of us in the UK are now cremated, and archaeologists have no problem disturbing the graves of people who died long ago.
[ 10. July 2015, 13:31: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Would you say the same if what SusanDoris was throwing out was old rosary beads ? Miraculous medals and brown scapulars ? In other words, are you saying that the category "holy objects which it would be wrong to destroy" is empty ? Or that it just doesn't happen to include Bibles ?
To me it would make a difference if the items are blessed / consecrated, or perhaps known to have been "set apart for God" in the production process itself (like icons painted in a traditional prayerful manner). Perhaps I would also consider some items as "informally blessed". For example, a prayer book that was in continuous, daily use for a couple of decades by someone is to me not just a book any longer, even if that book was never formally "dedicated to God". To me the "spiritual work" of the former owner then has suffused this object.
As a general rule, I would either burn or bury such items I consider as having been "set apart for God" - if they can't be kept or passed on somehow, which is a better solution.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
I'm a volunteer in a charity bookshop. We are ruthless. Bibles are dispatched to the recycling sack with great regularity. If you want to save a bible don't send it to us ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Left Behind books would probably get the same fate but for their literary quality or rather lack of. Dawkins' polemics too though we would probably keep a missive on evolutionary biology if it were in good condition.
I can understand why you might want to put a book of something you disagree with beyond use. It is always a temptation. But I have to realise the £$ value of a book because our donors have entrusted it to us.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Books are tools. If you don't want it, it's nice to let someone else who does take it. If not, you could just quietly recycle it.
But words can often wield more power than tools. quote:
You seem to be hoping that your destruction will outrage and to take pleasure in destroying something that has made you unhappy.
It didn’t make me unhappy, nor did I take pleasure in throwing it away– it was the most sensible and practical thing to do. Nor did I do so to provoke outrage, but I thought and hoped – correctly I think – that the responses would be from a different and more interesting point of view from some on the other forums I visit. quote:
All well and good, although I don't think many will be outraged. I think you give the book too much power in your life. A break up is best not if you're snarling at someone, but if you see them and can't quite place the face for a moment or two.
I never snarl! Whatever my remaining time is, it is certainly too short to waste any of it on worry or snarling!
• When I first lost my reading vision, I bought a CCTV and, in a way that made people, particularly librarians, wince, I quickly found that the best way to read books using it was to separate the book into small sections, and that’s when I started carving up books! I hasten to add that I had paid for them!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
So many interesting ideas to think about and respond to - many thanks! I'll do so asap.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Forgive me, but I think I am missing something here.
Susan, as I understand it, you have had this Bible and Book of Common Prayer since you were confirmed. At one time, these possessions meant a lot to you. Confirmation, after all, is an (un)official passage from childhood to adulthood.
Throughout your adulthood, you have kept these symbols of that passage. You do not indicate when your doubts overcame your faith, but the symbols remained important to you for some reason as you did not dispose of them previously.
Now you are facing your end of life and want to make it easier for your sons once that happens. By giving up these symbols, you are now preparing for the next passage of life. I see this in my wife's desire to get rid of things though it is likely she will live another 25 years as healthy as she is.
To me, this seems like it is a little bit of a grief process you are going through. At confirmation, you received those symbols in anticipation of the life you were about to have. At the end of life, you are giving up those symbols of the life you have had.
I do hope your life has been fulfilling. There are always ups and downs in everyone's life. I hope the ups outweigh your downs.
[ 10. July 2015, 16:25: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
On moving to a new school to be head of RE, I inherited 60 KJVs full of graffiti. They went into the dustbion but a micro-managing head (Baptist) brought them back to me so I had to smuggle them back one by one.
He suggested I give them to a church but if ypou saw the nature of the graffiti you'd worry about the school's reputation.
As Ingob said, the Bible is not a magic book.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
SusanDoris - I cannot understand why you should care if a Bible makes someone believe in God. It does not affect you. Why care about it so much? Me believing in God has no impact whatsoever on your life, I can't see how it would change for Joe Bloggs to start believing in God.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I hope this comes out all right – I have responded to quite a few posts in this one.
…. quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What would it take to change your mind Susan Doris? I remember my Dad about 3 years before he died reading through the OT. He was a committed catholic but said he did not want to die without reading it all. Interestingly he was fascinated by Ecclesiastes. At his age he could look back on all the" useless, useless, useless" stuff in his life.
I cannot imagine anything that would change my mind about all gods being products of human imagination, and I certainly can’t put the books back together again!
As a matter of interest, since you mentioned it, I went to google and looked up the first chapter of Ecclesiastes! Certainly, common sense and co-operation have enabled our species’ survival!
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If you really thought it was insignificant, you wouldn't make so much ado about it.
Unfortunately, you are right – although I don’t think I’ve made too much of it! It just shows how I was ingrained with conventional do’s and don’ts when young. I count myself lucky that I was born with the need to ask if things are true andwas too long steered away from any non-belief opinions.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
My conscience would not now allow me to have done that, as I would know I had taken a backward step, even at my stage in life.
Well, I guess it is nice that you attribute such powers to the bible and prayer books. If the mere act of owning nicer editions of such books makes one more pious, then I'm surely on my way to sainthood.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Go for it! No, I think it was the conventional upbringing that did it.
My two books were the standard design so the sort that The Midge says would be discarded.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Personally, I'm not in favour of destroying books for moral reasons. In an era of freely available information - on the internet or in very cheap bookshops - this seems like a pretty petty activity.
But I do wonder if the OP is trying to provoke a reaction by posting about it here. We regularly throw out books (usually those we bought from a charity shop and read until destroyed). Would you be interested in my moral qualms about destroying Dickens or Tolstoy? I doubt it.
No, because everyone knows they are novels. Of course the Bible is a set of stories too, but the centuries-old association with religious beliefs has given them a position of authority it can only maintain while people believe in God/god/s. quote:
A few years ago I was talking to an Imam about the fashion in some parts of the USA (and elsewhere) to destroy the Koran in public. He said that it was a simple provocation and that destroying the book did not destroy the truth of the words.
To me that is the right way to think about it. You are not doing anything, SusanDoris, to affect those who believe.
Yes, I know, but I am an incurable optimist, you know!
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
An interesting example would be to look at books that I find objectionable. For example Left Behind, I find its theology and morality despicable, and its writing horrendous. And the book may even be dangerous in that it has had influenced a swathe of population that carries weight in US politics.
What if I had a copy of the book and wanted to get rid of it (for obvious reasons)? Would I destroy it? Hmm, not sure. Apparently the objection to destroying books is rather deeply ingrained in me.
I might give it away to someone. But I would tell this person what I think about the book.
I don't think I would give it to a social project that has a library lending out books to its people though.
I think I understand that dilemma, especially since I’ve left it till now to finally decide!
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
If you have read your Bible, you will know that there is a wealth of wonderful wisdom within it, and you will know that reading its books does not necessarily lead one to believe in the existence of God.
If one did reach such a conclusion, the responsibility would not fall upon any previous owner of the book.
I agree with all that you
say here, but if by taking one small action – and I am fully aware this is a daft idea! - I can
prevent one person turning to blind belief, then I might have done something useful? …… Okay,
probably not!!
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I find the attitudes toward physical objects which relate to ones faith interesting. I think it is well known that Muslims have a much more reverent attitude to physical copies of the Quran, and it would not surprise me if some christians felt the same, maybe also towards religious icons.
I suppose at root it's the idea that you throw out what is worthless, and so it could be taken as a statement that the Bible is worthless.
It's interesting that an Atheist may fear that someone reading it might be converted.
I'm reluctant to throw out books, on the basis that I wouldn't want to hand them on. The only two books I've done that to are Anton Szandor LaVey's Satanic Bible and a set of academic papers attempting to justify sex with minors!
Some years ago I was involved in a discussion where I asked how anyone could tell if an object or a place was sacred or holy unless they were told so by another person, and of course there isn’t any way. Therefore all thoughts and attributed properties and values are those thought up by humans.
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
I'm a volunteer in a charity bookshop. We are ruthless. Bibles are dispatched to the recycling sack with great regularity. If you want to save a bible don't send it to us
Left Behind books would probably get the same fate but for their literary quality or rather lack of. Dawkins' polemics too though we would probably keep a missive on evolutionary biology if it were in good condition.
I can understand why you might want to put a book of something you disagree with beyond use. It is always a temptation. But I have to realise the £$ value of a book because our donors have entrusted it to us.
Many thanks for that post – we have to be practical I think.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
1) believing in God =/= blind belief, 2) I have certainly felt that places are holy or sacred without being told so.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Forgive me, but I think I am missing something here.
Susan, as I understand it, you have had this Bible and Book of Common Prayer since you were confirmed. At one time, these possessions meant a lot to you. Confirmation, after all, is an (un)official passage from childhood to adulthood.
Thank you for your interesting and thoughtful post. I have been thinking about that and I don't think I gave it all any deep consideration. My sister and I went to Sunday School and followed the conventional path of middle-class children because that was the thing to do and would give us a good start in life. There was no great stress on the significance of baptism, confirmation, going to communion, etc but it was better to be able to say one had done these things. I don't mean that my parents behaved hypocritically, or that the matter was treated trivially - on the contrary, it was something we had to think about seriously, but there were no choices offered really. In fact my baptism had been done quickly because my grandmother wanted to be at it before we returned to Jersey where my father worked at the time. My father stood as my godfather and my grandmother as godmother and I didn't wear the family christening robe. (Actually, there's something about that on one of the Travel pages on my web site! ) quote:
Throughout your adulthood, you have kept these symbols of that passage. You do not indicate when your doubts overcame your faith, but the symbols remained important to you for some reason as you did not dispose of them previously.
Hmmmm, yes, odd that! I'll have to have a good think about that. quote:
Now you are facing your end of life and want to make it easier for your sons once that happens. By giving up these symbols, you are now preparing for the next passage of life. I see this in my wife's desire to get rid of things though it is likely she will live another 25 years as healthy as she is.
On that point I am absolutely clear. I am certain that when I die, that is the end, there is no more, nothing - and it is right and proper that this should be
so and I have no fears or concerns about that. quote:
To me, this seems like it is a little bit of a grief process you are going through.
I think you are right there, but not quite for the reasons you say. With several friends dying, my friends being of similar ages (around 80 or over), I have found it quite amusing to find sometimes that I am sort of grieving for my own death!! I do, however, quickly see the funny side of this, and realise how lucky I am to have a new aortic valve and to not have been killed last year by the car that knocked me down, even though I’m still having to work hard to regain my full fitness. I shall be continuing to tap dance until I can’t even do it with a zimmer frame or something! quote:
At confirmation, you received those symbols in anticipation of the life you were about to have. At the end of life, you are giving up those symbols of the life you have had.
Thank you for that interesting way of looking at things, although the symbols ceased to have importance a long time ago. quote:
I do hope your life has been fulfilling. There are always ups and downs in everyone's life. I hope the ups outweigh your downs.
Yes, the good parts have definitely outweighed the not so good.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Pomona
Thank you for your posts - I'm shutting down now, but back later tomorrow.[
[ 10. July 2015, 19:18: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Apologies that this is a bit long, but the questions I would like to ask are: How do you react to what I talk about here? Do you think it was sort of sacrilegious, if so why? Do you think, 'So what?' I would be most interested to hear what you think.
I think that if I'm ever on the lookout for a bit of the ol' pastoral wisdom to share with a non Christian pal, or some well framed apologetic arguments to support the Christian faith, I know I can always find them in responses to your posts. I've picked up loads of great stuff. In your own sweet little way you've turned into a real gold mine of real cool and useful apologetics.
Keep up the contribution to world evangelism and Christian mission me ol darlin'
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
SusanDoris - I cannot understand why you should care if a Bible makes someone believe in God. It does not affect you. Why care about it so much?
What I really care about is the education of future generations of children. They should of course be educated about religious beliefs, but should not be taught that any god is a true fact, that said imaginary being is real, that it loves them and watches over them, etc etc. What adults choose to believe is their own, adult, decision. quote:
Me believing in God has no imPact whatsoever on your life, I can't see how it would change for Joe Bloggs to start believing in God.
True, but in fact those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely. quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
1) believing in God =/= blind belief, 2) I have certainly felt that places are holy or sacred without being told so.
But it is your brain which chooses to interpret whatever sensations you have there as being connected with God/god. It is an entirely human emotion, isn't it?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Apologies that this is a bit long, but the questions I would like to ask are: How do you react to what I talk about here? Do you think it was sort of sacrilegious, if so why? Do you think, 'So what?' I would be most interested to hear what you think.
I think that if I'm ever on the lookout for a bit of the ol' pastoral wisdom to share with a non Christian pal, or some well framed apologetic arguments to support the Christian faith, I know I can always find them in responses to your posts. I've picked up loads of great stuff. In your own sweet little way you've turned into a real gold mine of real cool and useful apologetics.
Thank you for your post. As I said at the beginning, I knew I would get really interesting responses here.
I am of course delighted to be of service! But lack of belief is slowly gaining ground and will eventually be in the majority. I agree of course that there is quite a way to go! quote:
Keep up the contribution to world evangelism and Christian mission me ol darlin'
In the end, belief in imaginary beings etc will have to give way to the realities of scientific fact. Never entirely of course because, as my granddaughter was just saying this afternoon, there are always those who will derive comfort from religious beliefs.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You keep posting shit like that but we both know when challenged you won't be able to actually back it up. I know this because the same scenario plays on these boards like clockwork every few months. Several years ago, I recognized religious fundamentalists and vocal atheists shared a mindset but with different beliefs. Your contributions on the Ship repeatedly confirm that observation. This OP is pure gold in that respect.
[ 11. July 2015, 17:07: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
In the end, belief in imaginary beings etc will have to give way to the realities of scientific fact. Never entirely of course because, as my granddaughter was just saying this afternoon, there are always those who will derive comfort from religious beliefs.
There will also likely always be those who recognize that neither the existence of a deity nor the non-existence of a deity can be scientifically proven, and that saying scientific fact shows the concept of a deity to be an imaginary human construct is as much of a faith statement as is a claim of belief in God.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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