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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Recycling the Bible
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely.
You are hardly being fair - those with beliefs may have power and some do choose to use it unwisely.
On the other hand, some with power and faith do use it wisely - otherwise schools, hospitals and our social provision system wouldn't have come at the time they did nor might they exist in the form they do.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Susan Doris:
quote:
All religious texts are thought of and transmitted orally or written down by humans - always have been and always will be. Therefore, there is wonderful poetic creativity in all of them no doubt, as well as poorly composed unpleasantness; good, sensible, moral guidance, as well as corrupting violent provocation; truth and falsehood. None has ever, at any time, said anything which is objective proof of any god, and by that I do not mean 100%, but as near as can be while still leaving a very small space for the possibility that one day one might be proved. Do you agree?
I have seen quotes of some texts here and there, but I'm afraid I would find it very boring indeed to listen to good ol' Synthetic Dave reading them to me via the internet! [Smile] About ten years ago, I did listen to a complete spoken word copy of the NT! I found it quite funny actually to listen to all of Paul's letters straight through - I'll bet you anything that the recipients of those letters used to dread the next one, and probably used the short straw method of deciding whose turn it was to reply this time. [Big Grin]
Thank you for your reply, but it doesn't really answer my question.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely.
You are hardly being fair - those with beliefs may have power and some do choose to use it unwisely.
On the other hand, some with power and faith do use it wisely - otherwise schools, hospitals and our social provision system wouldn't have come at the time they did nor might they exist in the form they do.
But those with no strong religious beliefs always use power wisely.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Exclamation Mark
Thank you for your posts. quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Thank you for your reply, but it doesn't really answer my question.
Not quite sure why - could you elaborate, please?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Susan Doris:
quote:
Not quite sure why - could you elaborate, please?
I do apologise. I thought I had asked a fairly straight forward and uncomplicated question but I seemed to get a response about oral and written tradition and synthetic Dave.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
SusanDoris - I cannot understand why you should care if a Bible makes someone believe in God. It does not affect you. Why care about it so much?
What I really care about is the education of future generations of children. They should of course be educated about religious beliefs, but should not be taught that any god is a true fact, that said imaginary being is real, that it loves them and watches over them, etc etc. What adults choose to believe is their own, adult, decision. quote:
Me believing in God has no imPact whatsoever on your life, I can't see how it would change for Joe Bloggs to start believing in God.
True, but in fact those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely. quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
1) believing in God =/= blind belief, 2) I have certainly felt that places are holy or sacred without being told so.
But it is your brain which chooses to interpret whatever sensations you have there as being connected with God/god. It is an entirely human emotion, isn't it?
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
Atheists also often have great power and do not use it wisely - but no non-atheist here has called for ripping up copies of pro-atheism books, even if they might lead to someone becoming pro-Maoist for example. Yes, that's very unlikely - but just as unlikely as reading a donated Bible is going to make someone join the Westboro Baptist Church. Also, the most powerful countries are the least religious ones.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about it being entirely human emotion. It's also human emotion that makes someone think that a place isn't holy or sacred. What do you mean here? Does atheism now demand that we don't have emotions?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
No Christian on this thread has advocated destroying a Dawkins book.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
I thought I had made it fairly clear that I fully realise this was a drop in the ocean as far as influencing anybody was concerned. I hope, however, that when I die my sons will have one less small thing to do! quote:
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about it being entirely human emotion. It's also human emotion that makes someone think that a place isn't holy or sacred. What do you mean here? Does atheism now demand that we don't have emotions?
Certainly not! But there are no places anywhere, no objects, no creatures of any kind which are inherently 'holy', 'spiritual', or any similar word you may choose, in its own right; the designation is 100% human. It's an empty set.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No Christian on this thread has advocated destroying a Dawkins book.
No, I did not expect they would! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) There is, though, a difference between RD's books and the Bible: the former contain checkable, obnjective facts and the latter contains constant references to a God which remains an idea only. I agree the former also contain opinions, but these are all open to challenge - and to change if more reliable evidence is submitted.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Aravis
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# 13824
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Posted
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible? No contact with other Christians, churches, books with a more consistent message, anything? What happens if you just happen to pick up SusanDoris's Old Testament? Will you convert to Judaism?
I'm sure it's possible to be converted to a particular religion by coming across a copy of their main book, but I don't think it's common. It may have been so when people had fewer books and no media access.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Downsizing my books, I had to put them on the narrowest shelf they would fit, irrespective of subject. I still wanted some organisation, though, so I decided that each shelf of miscellaneous titles should be ordered from fiction to fact. So novels were at one end, and books about birds at the other, economics somewhere in the middle. I decided bibles should go near the fact end. There is some poetry, but largely I read the bible as data: this is what they said, what they thought. It's fact because it's a human creation.
So I agree and disagree with you, SusanDoris. Of course there is no putative being called God, but maybe this human creation is at points true. When Paul says God made all nations from one stock and appealed to what he saw as the essential unity of human beings, perhaps he's right. I hope so. He was wrong about us all being descended from one man, but the point he wants to make, whatever the prehistory, is that we are one, and should be able to understand each other, and respect and trust in each other's worth and worthiness.
The bible gives us human words and beliefs: facts, but a bit dull. But we also see the hopes and longings of those humans, their convictions about what it all might mean: claim and conjecture, opinion rather than fact, but it might be true. And that's exciting. Is goodness really stronger than evil? Even if it isn't, is making the claim that it is, a fine way to live and die?
I don't want to get rid of the bible, though we could lose many copies, but I want to get rid of the way so many people read it, as if it was a message from a being, or an argument for that beings existence.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No Christian on this thread has advocated destroying a Dawkins book.
No, I did not expect they would! There is, though, a difference between RD's books and the Bible: the former contain checkable, obnjective facts and the latter contains constant references to a God which remains an idea only. I agree the former also contain opinions, but these are all open to challenge - and to change if more reliable evidence is submitted.
Sorry Susan. I tried The God Delusion it was rather short on checkable objective facts. Indeed I didn't even recognise the god it was talking about.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Well, I'm having an odd, but challenging, experience just at this moment! I turned on a little while ago, but although I can hear the screen reader and use the software, the screen is black, so I'm having to use sound only. I've left phone messages with Tech chap, so I hope he will rescue me some time today. Although I use the assistive software all the time, I am able to perceive the screen in my peripheral vision which helps me orientate myself on it. I have also listened to the latest interesting posts, for which my thanks. I'll be back asap!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
Atheists also often have great power and do not use it wisely - but no non-atheist here has called for ripping up copies of pro-atheism books, even if they might lead to someone becoming pro-Maoist for example. Yes, that's very unlikely - but just as unlikely as reading a donated Bible is going to make someone join the Westboro Baptist Church. Also, the most powerful countries are the least religious ones.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I do find it odd that Susan didn't just give the Bible away to a charity shop, rather than this song and dance about 'not creating more work for her sons than necessary.' Sheesh, it's just one book, how much work would that be.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
There is, though, a difference between RD's books and the Bible: the former contain checkable, obnjective facts ...
His science books, sure. I can respect him as a scientist. His bigoted diatribes about religion ... not so much.
But RD is more tolerant than you, Susan. He at least acknowledges the importance of the Bible in, for example, the history of Western literature.
There is, in all honesty, something rather unpleasant about wanting to airbrush something out of existence. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible? No contact with other Christians, churches, books with a more consistent message, anything?
In my experience, never.
Any conversion I've ever seen (or experienced, for that matter) has always required a community, however small. The Bible requires context in order to be understood. Outside the context of a particular church or community of believers it's going to be impenetrable at best, misunderstood at worst.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Susan, thank you for your reply.
Just want to point out when I say the end of life is a passage, I am not necessarily implying an afterlife. It is just when you go from breathing to not breathing, that is a passage.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Er--I was. And I was about as pure a test case as you're going to get in a Western country.
Actually I was, sort of, too- the Gideon New Testament we were all given at school. Or at least that's what started me off. I found wwhen i read the Gospels that here was something really compelling that required some kind of response.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
. quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What would it take to change your mind Susan Doris? I remember my Dad about 3 years before he died reading through the OT. He was a committed catholic but said he did not want to die without reading it all. Interestingly he was fascinated by Ecclesiastes. At his age he could look back on all the" useless, useless, useless" stuff in his life.
I cannot imagine anything that would change my mind about all gods being products of human imagination, and I certainly can’t put the books back together again!
As a matter of interest, since you mentioned it, I went to google and looked up the first chapter of Ecclesiastes! Certainly, common sense and co-operation have enabled our species’ survival!
Ecclesiastes is really interesting in several ways. It seems to be an attempt by Solomon to sate all physical appetites as a kind of experiment to see if any lasting satisfaction can be attained. In an oblique kind of way the message is that physicality alone is futile. There is a kind of climactic moment at the end ch 12 I think where suddenly he urges the reader to remember that for all these actions God will require an account but the clincher is the injunction to remember the creator while one still can " before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl crushed" which is rather a beautiful metaphor for death.
You might have look if you are interested.
I did not realise your limitations and do admire your courage and determination. I think you are dreadfully mistaken in your convictions of God's absence but I live with someone just the same so am not surprised.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
I re-read Ecclesiastes recently. It's a great book. Astonishingly post-modern.
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible?
I have a couple of atheist/New Age friends who've read the Bible and were unmoved by it, but I also know a couple of people who read it and came to Christ as a result.
SusanDoris, I hope indeed that your technical problems are sorted out soon. Must be frustrating for you. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Susan Doris, I'm still quite puzzled by this thread. If you are completely convinced that you do not believe in any God, why is it still such an issue to you whether you destroy a Bible and Prayer Book or why and how you do so? And even more than that, why do you feel the need to come on a Christian discussion board to tell everyone about it and ask us what we think?
Are you saying 'Look at me'? Or have you got a secret fear that for destroying sacred objects, a great Monty Python like foot will descend from above? Are you hoping some Christians will say to you, 'no it won't' or, 'no, for doing this you won't go to hell when you die'? Because if so, we can't speak on God's behalf. We won't and shouldn't. It is not a request which one person can ask another or expect them to answer.
You say it's just so that your family will have two less things to dispose of when you are gone, but is that all there is to it. They're quite small. If it were, why write it up? Or does it represent something more to you?
It's probably cheek of me to say this, but your OP reads as one who isn't quite as comfortable in their atheist skin as they'd present themselves to be. A few years ago Professor Dawkins tried to kidnap the adjective 'bright' to describe his corpus of negative beliefs. From our side of that divide, 'brittle' feels a more accurate description.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Bibliolatry is no different from any other idolatry.
A book is paper pulp (or linen pulp, I suppose) with a sprinkling of chemicals. They are the hardware, the pattern of the ink chemicals being the software. They are alive all right. But they live only in the wetware -- when they are downloaded into our heads and hearts. All other manifestations are meaningless.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
Brenda, that is why despotic regimes spend so much effort burning books they disagree with and persecuting artists and writers.
The pen is mightier.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
The only way it does work is to mess with the language itself. (Orwell was right!) The Chinese government has simplified pinying, the written Chinese characters. The goal is to make Chinese easier to use in a modern setting, typewriters and internet and so on. But the actual result is to make all Chinese writings older than 1960 or so impossible for younger people to read.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
On recycling bibles:
Many many old KJV's get passed along to me because people know that 1) I am a dedicated recycler and 2) I am a dedicated Christ follower.
My first struggle with this issue happened when my father's Sunday school bible was given to me. Leather bound, with gold rimmed pages and inscribed as a gift from the Methodist superintendent in the 1920's - he never used it. Doubt it was ever opened. Just passed down to me as a "significant object" that had belonged to my dad. It sat on a shelf until the binding gave way, and then I decided to put it to use for a craft project. None of my kids would read it anyway.
Really lovely bigger bibles with engravings and a place for recording family history I keep as wedding presents (Something "old"). Even if the bride and groom are not religious, they don't seem to mind anything meant as a blessing to them. At the very least it is somewhere "safe" and "nice" to record family stuff.
Now I have no qualms about composting damaged bibles or putting them in the paper recycling bin. I happily burn them too, for the ash to be used on our garden. "Earth to earth and ashes to ashes". If "the earth is the Lord's and everything in it" then redistributing the molecules of such items doesn't really matter.
If the bibles I am given are a more modern version, I send them to one of the correctional centre chaplains. She gives them away all the time in her work, and is grateful for the supply.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I don't want to get rid of the bible, though we could lose many copies, but I want to get rid of the way so many people read it, as if it was a message from a being, or an argument for that beings existence.
There's a general point in there which I like. The free availability of written material of all sorts strikes me as right in principle, but only if our forms of education encourage people to develop both critical appreciation and confidence in their ability to think for themselves.
One of the issues demonstrated by the internet is that free availability of information may be misused to deceive and delude the unwary. But I think that says more about the variable availability of "think for yourself" nurturing and education than the dangers of free availability of text.
SusanDoris, I think you worry about a small risk. These days, it's pretty difficult even to get Christians to read seriously and really study the bible (rather than swallow hook line and sinker various pre-digested views).
To quote Edward de Bono, "people think in order to stop thinking". The predeliction for pre-packaged solutions is a kind of easy way out of genuine thoughtfulness. Whatever else may be said about the Bible, it's hardly an obvious pre-packaged solution. Making sense of its contents, from any POV, requires much hard work and thought.
[ 15. July 2015, 08:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I re-read Ecclesiastes recently. It's a great book. Astonishingly post-modern.
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible?
I have a couple of atheist/New Age friends who've read the Bible and were unmoved by it, but I also know a couple of people who read it and came to Christ as a result.
SusanDoris, I hope indeed that your technical problems are sorted out soon. Must be frustrating for you.
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
Poetry - in the first chapter - and then a fair amount of sex and violence.
That would keep me reading.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
Poetry - in the first chapter - and then a fair amount of sex and violence.
That would keep me reading.
The problem is it keeps on implying that the violence is good and right, given most of it is apparently done by God. That's the issue there.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
A conference speaker once observed that Genesis was a useful case study of dysfunctional relationships and how not to bring up your kids.
I heard a story once re the late Randolph Churchill. Encouraged by one of his friends to read the bible (he claimed he never had), he did so. Returning to his friend, he observed that he'd read Genesis, stopped in disgust and concluded that God was "an absolute shit".
This kind of reveals the difficulties facing a 20/21st century mind coming across this stuff without any real background!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US. quote:
The only way it does work is to mess with the language itself. (Orwell was right!) The Chinese government has simplified pinying, the written Chinese characters.
Chinese characters are hanzi, not "pinying"; pinyin is a convention for transliterating Chinese into roman characters. quote:
The goal is to make Chinese easier to use in a modern setting, typewriters and internet and so on. But the actual result is to make all Chinese writings older than 1960 or so impossible for younger people to read.
Reference? There's no reason older writings couldn't be reproduced using the simplified characters.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US. quote:
The only way it does work is to mess with the language itself. (Orwell was right!) The Chinese government has simplified pinying, the written Chinese characters.
Chinese characters are hanzi, not "pinying"; pinyin is a convention for transliterating Chinese into roman characters. quote:
The goal is to make Chinese easier to use in a modern setting, typewriters and internet and so on. But the actual result is to make all Chinese writings older than 1960 or so impossible for younger people to read.
Reference? There's no reason older writings couldn't be reproduced using the simplified characters.
Yes, but they would have to be re-written and reprinted first, and only that material of interest to authorities or businesses would have priority. This is a topic of much debate among Chinese Canadians-- some parents prefer the simpler characters as easier for children to learn, but most (at least those with whom I have spoken) want children to have access to a wider range of written material. I was suprised with the passion the topic raises and in 1997 IIRC a school board meeting in Richmond BC was disrupted by demonstrators (they were discussing which characters would be used in heritage language teaching in the board's jurisdiction). I was given to understand that home-country politics was behind much of this.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US.
AIUI the German government owns the copyright to the German-language version, and they will not allow anyone to publish it. The copyright will expire next year.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
My favourite recycling artist can be found here: Susan Hannon makes angels wings from the pages of old bibles.
I particularly like the installation where you can sit in front of them and have a snapshot taken of yourself with wings. Bravo, Susan, bravo.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
I thought I had made it fairly clear that I fully realise this was a drop in the ocean as far as influencing anybody was concerned. I hope, however, that when I die my sons will have one less small thing to do! quote:
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about it being entirely human emotion. It's also human emotion that makes someone think that a place isn't holy or sacred. What do you mean here? Does atheism now demand that we don't have emotions?
Certainly not! But there are no places anywhere, no objects, no creatures of any kind which are inherently 'holy', 'spiritual', or any similar word you may choose, in its own right; the designation is 100% human. It's an empty set.
But the designation of places as not holy or not spiritual is also 100% human.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
The home visit Tech man checked the monitor on a spare one - mine had packed up. Fortunately, I was able to order a new one from local computer shop which arrived yesterday. My clever neighbour plugged it in. So here I am this morning, much enjoying reading latest posts. Back soon with responses!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AIUI the German government owns the copyright to the German-language version, and they will not allow anyone to publish it. The copyright will expire next year.
To be pedantically accurate, midnight on next New Year's Eve. It's author died in 1945, and in the EU works emerge from copyright at the end of the 70th year after the one in which the author died.
Also being pedantic, though, what is the basis of the German government's claim to copyright in the author's works? It might not stand up outside Germany. On the author's death, copyright would have passed to his next of kin. I don't think that would be the governments of either East Germany (where he died) or West Germany where his alpine holiday home was. Neither existed at that time.
I don't see how being head of state would make any difference to that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US.
AIUI the German government owns the copyright to the German-language version, and they will not allow anyone to publish it. The copyright will expire next year.
Moo
Evidently they haven't been very effective since numerous recently published German language editions are available on Amazon.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
]I do find it odd that Susan didn't just give the Bible away to a charity shop, rather than this song and dance about 'not creating more work for her sons than necessary.' Sheesh, it's just one book, how much work would that be.
You are right of course, but, as I say, it was something ingrained - perhaps the correct word would be ‘indoctrinated’ – in childhood, so that I didn’t do it without thinking. quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49 Susan, thank you for your reply.
Just want to point out when I say the end of life is a passage, I am not necessarily implying an afterlife. It is just when you go from breathing to not breathing, that is a passage.
It is an odd thing to think about!! quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You might have look if you are interested.
Thank you for your interesting post. I shall enquire if there is an audio version – preferably in modern plain English, and see what I’ve missed! quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I re-read Ecclesiastes recently. It's a great book. Astonishingly post-modern.
Sounds good! quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
SusanDoris, I hope indeed that your technical problems are sorted out soon. Must be frustrating for you.
[Yes, it is! But thank goodness for the clever people who know what to do
I think there might still be a small hitch though - I have been typing this on a doc and when I went to listen to it back, I find it seems to be on two pages side by side. Hmmm.
[code]
[ 19. July 2015, 15:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Also being pedantic, though, what is the basis of the German government's claim to copyright in the author's works? It might not stand up outside Germany. On the author's death, copyright would have passed to his next of kin. I don't think that would be the governments of either East Germany (where he died) or West Germany where his alpine holiday home was. Neither existed at that time.
I don't see how being head of state would make any difference to that.
Doesn't the crown own the UK copyright in perpetuity on the Authorized Version? I think governments are likely to claim whatever copyrights they want, and since it's governments that make and enforce copyrights in the first place, who's to stop them?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Susan Doris, I'm still quite puzzled by this thread. If you are completely convinced that you do not believe in any God, why is it still such an issue to you whether you destroy a Bible and Prayer Book or why and how you do so?
Well, I was actually quite puzzled myself; only slightly, it is true, but I realise I’ve considered throwing both books away many times over the years and I wondered why I hadn’t! quote:
And even more than that, why do you feel the need to come on a Christian discussion board to tell everyone about it and ask us what we think?
If I knew nothing of SofF then the idea of looking for such a place would not even have occurred to me, but since I’ve been a mem ber here for quite a time, I thought it would be interesting to hear others’ views. I quickly learnt to value and respect the discussions here and knew I would not be disappointed this time either. quote:
Are you saying 'Look at me'? Or have you got a secret fear that for destroying sacred objects, a great Monty Python like foot will descend from above? Are you hoping some Christians will say to you, 'no it won't' or, 'no, for doing this you won't go to hell when you die'? Because if so, we can't speak on God's behalf. We won't and shouldn't. It is not a request which one person can ask another or expect them to answer.
No, none of those! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I quite like the image of the boot though! I can assure you I had no hidden meaning. quote:
You say it's just so that your family will have two less things to dispose of when you are gone, but is that all there is to it. They're quite small. If it were, why write it up? Or does it represent something more to you?
And all these interesting questions provide food for thought and the more one understands what makes people tick and what motivates them, the more interesting life becomes..
quote:
It's probably cheek of me to say this, but your OP reads as one who isn't quite as comfortable in their atheist skin as they'd present themselves to be.
No, certainly not a cheek. I think there would have been a grain of truth in that 20-25 years ago. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why I only did the recycling now. There is, however, no longer any doubt which I do find quite satisfying!
Like all pragmatic atheists, I do of course always leave room for the conclusive, objective evidence that I might be wrong.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
[/QB] This is a topic of much debate among Chinese Canadians-- some parents prefer the simpler characters as easier for children to learn, but most (at least those with whom I have spoken) want children to have access to a wider range of written material. I was suprised with the passion the topic raises and in 1997 IIRC a school board meeting in Richmond BC was disrupted by demonstrators (they were discussing which characters would be used in heritage language teaching in the board's jurisdiction). I was given to understand that home-country politics was behind much of this. [/QB]
How interesting – I hadn’t heard of any of that.
[
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Is there a reason you didn't put it in a book bank? That's what I do with all my unwanted books. We have a bookcase in each room - any new ones must be accommodated by taking unwanted ones to the book bank.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Doesn't the crown own the UK copyright in perpetuity on the Authorized Version? I think governments are likely to claim whatever copyrights they want, and since it's governments that make and enforce copyrights in the first place, who's to stop them?
It does, but I'm fairly sure it's unenforceable outside the UK.
Besides, although these days countries are supposed to respect foreign copyrights, you can't usually claim a copyright in a foreign country which is greater than the work would have had if it had been published there.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
The sincere desire to prevent wrong belief in others by destroying some meaningful symbol of their faith is what led to the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan.
For offense of a similar scale, SusanDoris would have had to recycle a Gutenberg Bible, but it seems to me the impulse is the same. It is a kind of fundamentalist intolerance which cannot recognize any positive value in the symbols of another's faith.
Since I don't think I'm above such impulses myself, I think I would have to consider such a resource to be unremittingly evil: books explaining how to molest children or commit mass murder. I find it hard to understand how the faith symbols of others - even if I think they are sincerely mistaken and should come on over to The Still More Excellent Way ![[Biased]](wink.gif) - fall into the category of unremittingly evil.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Can I just say how lovely it was to check in just now and see " 'Recycling the Bible' by Leaf."
[ 20. July 2015, 00:29: Message edited by: Banner Lady ]
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
A Bible can even be useful if you have a wobbly table (alright, it needs to be a very wobbly table).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I've tried the NLB Talking Books dept and googled varius phrases, but have not yet found a suitable audio version of Ecclesiastes. I thought I might be able to listen line by line on line but, although this is possible, the voice reads numbers of verses every time and, if I use 'line view mode', it reads some of the punctuation too! The NLB has an audio of the OT, but not in plain English version. I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas, or can help, with this/?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
David Suchet has recorded the whole Bible, it is available on MP3 cd. I'm sure his version will be much easier on the ear than one which keeps adding chapter and verse!
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Thank you, Raptor Eye. I will phone the Library and see if they have a copy.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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