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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Recycling the Bible
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You keep posting shit like that but we both know when challenged you won't be able to actually back it up. I know this because the same scenario plays on these boards like clockwork every few months. Several years ago, I recognized religious fundamentalists and vocal atheists shared a mindset but with different beliefs. Your contributions on the Ship repeatedly confirm that observation. This OP is pure gold in that respect.
Well, I expect you will agree that your responses to what I have to say is very predictable too!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
There will also likely always be those who recognize that neither the existence of a deity nor the non-existence of a deity can be scientifically proven, and that saying scientific fact shows the concept of a deity to be an imaginary human construct is as much of a faith statement as is a claim of belief in God.
You are right of course, but my predictable response to this is to ask whether you agree that the liklihood of either is not 50/50, but far more weighted against proof of any god.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I'm proud to say my response to hypocritical nonsense is consistent no matter how often it's repeated.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
There will also likely always be those who recognize that neither the existence of a deity nor the non-existence of a deity can be scientifically proven, and that saying scientific fact shows the concept of a deity to be an imaginary human construct is as much of a faith statement as is a claim of belief in God.
You are right of course, but my predictable response to this is to ask whether you agree that the liklihood of either is not 50/50, but far more weighted against proof of any god.
I'd say I think it's virtually 100% certain that science will neither prove nor disprove the existence of any god. Whether more people will choose to believe there is no god or will choose to believe there is a god is another question entirely, the answer to which will be influenced by many things. Proof will not, I suspect, be one of them. Popular opinion on the other hand . . . .
That said, I think that the trends, at least in much of the West, indicate that something like ietsism or "spiritual but not religious," perhaps coupled with true agnosticism, may outpace either theism or atheism.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If you have read your Bible, you will know that there is a wealth of wonderful wisdom within it, and you will know that reading its books does not necessarily lead one to believe in the existence of God.
If one did reach such a conclusion, the responsibility would not fall upon any previous owner of the book.
I agree with all that you
say here, but if by taking one small action – and I am fully aware this is a daft idea! - I can
prevent one person turning to blind belief, then I might have done something useful? …… Okay,
probably not!!
It is not blind belief if the person who reads the Bible encounters the living God that way. You might dismiss the possibility of this, but the reason the Bible is called Holy is because it brings us closer to God.
It is not useful to hold back anything that helps people to make up their own minds, imv. I want everyone to make informed decisions.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It's starting to get personal. Let's check that unless you all do want the discussion elsewhere.
Gwai,
Purgatory Host
I'm sorry about that because, as always, I knew the responses from SoF members would be very interesting and thoughtful.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I'd say I think it's virtually 100% certain that science will neither prove nor disprove the existence of any god. Whether more people will choose to believe there is no god or will choose to believe there is a god is another question entirely, the answer to which will be influenced by many things. Proof will not, I suspect, be one of them. Popular opinion on the other hand . . . .
That said, I think that the trends, at least in much of the West, indicate that something like ietsism or "spiritual but not religious," perhaps coupled with true agnosticism, may outpace either theism or atheism.
thank you - I don't think I disagree with any of that - I'm just sorry I shan't be around to see it all!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
SusanDoris,
A question, if I may, about your belief-system.
Are you as happy for your body to be recycled as soon as you no longer need it ?
Or are you proposing that it shall be treated with some level of affection or reverence as a symbol of the lovable person who once inhabited it ?
IngoB wants to burn or bury old rosaries or well-loved prayer books ecause in Western culture these are considered more dignified or reverent methods of disposal than ripping to shreds or leaving to rot in the open air or feeding to animals.
Do you share this sense at all ? Is it the principle or just the domain of its application where you disagree with him ?
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
SusanDoris,
A question, if I may, about your belief-system.
Are you as happy for your body to be recycled as soon as you no longer need it ?
Interesting choice of words there 'no longer need it'! The implication appears to be that my spirit or something will have departed! This of course is absolutely not my belief. When I die that will be the end of anything that was me. Those who wish to remember me will do so with, I think I can safely say, affection; in the same way that I have affectionate, loving memories of those known to me who have already died. Whatever methods of disposal my sons choose, I hope it is the most simple, inexpensive and practical way of doing so. I'd happily leave my body to medical science, but I believe there are plenty available for the nearest teaching hospital.
quote:
]Or are you proposing that it shall be treated with some level of affection or reverence as a symbol of the lovable person who once inhabited it ?
There are, of course, laws and by-laws which must be followed, but the person who was me will be dead ... no woolly euphemisms wanted! I won't, for instance, have 'passed away', I'll have died! quote:
IngoB wants to burn or bury old rosaries or well-loved prayer books ecause in Western culture these are considered more dignified or reverent methods of disposal than ripping to shreds or leaving to rot in the open air or feeding to animals.
Do you share this sense at all ? Is it the principle or just the domain of its application where you disagree with him ?
Best wishes,
Russ
Thank you for that interesting post. Well, from a practical and historical point of view, I suppose that if nobody buried anything, there would be nothing for future people to dig up - and say, 'Ah, that was probably a religious symbol!!' ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, though, space for burial is at a premium these days, isn't it, and the better ways there are of disposing of things, including dead bodies, the easier things will be for future generations maybe.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Susan Doris:
quote:
The reasons are: I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
I'm presuming then that you feel this way about all religious texts?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Susan Doris:
quote:
The reasons are: I do not want to be responsible for someone reading the words and, as a result, believing there is such a thing as a God/god.
I'm presuming then that you feel this way about all religious texts?
Thank you for your post. All religious texts are thought of and transmitted orally or written down by humans - always have been and always will be. Therefore, there is wonderful poetic creativity in all of them no doubt, as well as poorly composed unpleasantness; good, sensible, moral guidance, as well as corrupting violent provocation; truth and falsehood. None has ever, at any time, said anything which is objective proof of any god, and by that I do not mean 100%, but as near as can be while still leaving a very small space for the possibility that one day one might be proved. Do you agree?
I have seen quotes of some texts here and there, but I'm afraid I would find it very boring indeed to listen to good ol' Synthetic Dave reading them to me via the internet! About ten years ago, I did listen to a complete spoken word copy of the NT! I found it quite funny actually to listen to all of Paul's letters straight through - I'll bet you anything that the recipients of those letters used to dread the next one, and probably used the short straw method of deciding whose turn it was to reply this time.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I'll bet you anything that the recipients of those letters used to dread the next one, and probably used the short straw method of deciding whose turn it was to reply this time.
None of us know whether that's the case: at this distance we can't know.
In any event, the letters had some impact otherwise the Christian faith would never have grown in the way it has.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
.... there are always those who will derive comfort from religious beliefs.
Possibly because it's the only comfort they get - and your atheism would seemingly be cruel enough to deny them that. It's also something and someone they believe in - in most cases not out of desperation and a kind of last resortism, but as the consequence of a rational choice and decision.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely.
You are hardly being fair - those with beliefs may have power and some do choose to use it unwisely.
On the other hand, some with power and faith do use it wisely - otherwise schools, hospitals and our social provision system wouldn't have come at the time they did nor might they exist in the form they do.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Susan Doris:
quote:
All religious texts are thought of and transmitted orally or written down by humans - always have been and always will be. Therefore, there is wonderful poetic creativity in all of them no doubt, as well as poorly composed unpleasantness; good, sensible, moral guidance, as well as corrupting violent provocation; truth and falsehood. None has ever, at any time, said anything which is objective proof of any god, and by that I do not mean 100%, but as near as can be while still leaving a very small space for the possibility that one day one might be proved. Do you agree?
I have seen quotes of some texts here and there, but I'm afraid I would find it very boring indeed to listen to good ol' Synthetic Dave reading them to me via the internet! [Smile] About ten years ago, I did listen to a complete spoken word copy of the NT! I found it quite funny actually to listen to all of Paul's letters straight through - I'll bet you anything that the recipients of those letters used to dread the next one, and probably used the short straw method of deciding whose turn it was to reply this time. [Big Grin]
Thank you for your reply, but it doesn't really answer my question.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
... those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely.
You are hardly being fair - those with beliefs may have power and some do choose to use it unwisely.
On the other hand, some with power and faith do use it wisely - otherwise schools, hospitals and our social provision system wouldn't have come at the time they did nor might they exist in the form they do.
But those with no strong religious beliefs always use power wisely.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Exclamation Mark
Thank you for your posts. quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Thank you for your reply, but it doesn't really answer my question.
Not quite sure why - could you elaborate, please?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Susan Doris:
quote:
Not quite sure why - could you elaborate, please?
I do apologise. I thought I had asked a fairly straight forward and uncomplicated question but I seemed to get a response about oral and written tradition and synthetic Dave.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
SusanDoris - I cannot understand why you should care if a Bible makes someone believe in God. It does not affect you. Why care about it so much?
What I really care about is the education of future generations of children. They should of course be educated about religious beliefs, but should not be taught that any god is a true fact, that said imaginary being is real, that it loves them and watches over them, etc etc. What adults choose to believe is their own, adult, decision. quote:
Me believing in God has no imPact whatsoever on your life, I can't see how it would change for Joe Bloggs to start believing in God.
True, but in fact those with strong religious beliefs often have great power too and do not use it wisely. quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
1) believing in God =/= blind belief, 2) I have certainly felt that places are holy or sacred without being told so.
But it is your brain which chooses to interpret whatever sensations you have there as being connected with God/god. It is an entirely human emotion, isn't it?
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
Atheists also often have great power and do not use it wisely - but no non-atheist here has called for ripping up copies of pro-atheism books, even if they might lead to someone becoming pro-Maoist for example. Yes, that's very unlikely - but just as unlikely as reading a donated Bible is going to make someone join the Westboro Baptist Church. Also, the most powerful countries are the least religious ones.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about it being entirely human emotion. It's also human emotion that makes someone think that a place isn't holy or sacred. What do you mean here? Does atheism now demand that we don't have emotions?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
No Christian on this thread has advocated destroying a Dawkins book.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
I thought I had made it fairly clear that I fully realise this was a drop in the ocean as far as influencing anybody was concerned. I hope, however, that when I die my sons will have one less small thing to do! quote:
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about it being entirely human emotion. It's also human emotion that makes someone think that a place isn't holy or sacred. What do you mean here? Does atheism now demand that we don't have emotions?
Certainly not! But there are no places anywhere, no objects, no creatures of any kind which are inherently 'holy', 'spiritual', or any similar word you may choose, in its own right; the designation is 100% human. It's an empty set.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No Christian on this thread has advocated destroying a Dawkins book.
No, I did not expect they would! There is, though, a difference between RD's books and the Bible: the former contain checkable, obnjective facts and the latter contains constant references to a God which remains an idea only. I agree the former also contain opinions, but these are all open to challenge - and to change if more reliable evidence is submitted.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible? No contact with other Christians, churches, books with a more consistent message, anything? What happens if you just happen to pick up SusanDoris's Old Testament? Will you convert to Judaism?
I'm sure it's possible to be converted to a particular religion by coming across a copy of their main book, but I don't think it's common. It may have been so when people had fewer books and no media access.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Downsizing my books, I had to put them on the narrowest shelf they would fit, irrespective of subject. I still wanted some organisation, though, so I decided that each shelf of miscellaneous titles should be ordered from fiction to fact. So novels were at one end, and books about birds at the other, economics somewhere in the middle. I decided bibles should go near the fact end. There is some poetry, but largely I read the bible as data: this is what they said, what they thought. It's fact because it's a human creation.
So I agree and disagree with you, SusanDoris. Of course there is no putative being called God, but maybe this human creation is at points true. When Paul says God made all nations from one stock and appealed to what he saw as the essential unity of human beings, perhaps he's right. I hope so. He was wrong about us all being descended from one man, but the point he wants to make, whatever the prehistory, is that we are one, and should be able to understand each other, and respect and trust in each other's worth and worthiness.
The bible gives us human words and beliefs: facts, but a bit dull. But we also see the hopes and longings of those humans, their convictions about what it all might mean: claim and conjecture, opinion rather than fact, but it might be true. And that's exciting. Is goodness really stronger than evil? Even if it isn't, is making the claim that it is, a fine way to live and die?
I don't want to get rid of the bible, though we could lose many copies, but I want to get rid of the way so many people read it, as if it was a message from a being, or an argument for that beings existence.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
No Christian on this thread has advocated destroying a Dawkins book.
No, I did not expect they would! There is, though, a difference between RD's books and the Bible: the former contain checkable, obnjective facts and the latter contains constant references to a God which remains an idea only. I agree the former also contain opinions, but these are all open to challenge - and to change if more reliable evidence is submitted.
Sorry Susan. I tried The God Delusion it was rather short on checkable objective facts. Indeed I didn't even recognise the god it was talking about.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Well, I'm having an odd, but challenging, experience just at this moment! I turned on a little while ago, but although I can hear the screen reader and use the software, the screen is black, so I'm having to use sound only. I've left phone messages with Tech chap, so I hope he will rescue me some time today. Although I use the assistive software all the time, I am able to perceive the screen in my peripheral vision which helps me orientate myself on it. I have also listened to the latest interesting posts, for which my thanks. I'll be back asap!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
Atheists also often have great power and do not use it wisely - but no non-atheist here has called for ripping up copies of pro-atheism books, even if they might lead to someone becoming pro-Maoist for example. Yes, that's very unlikely - but just as unlikely as reading a donated Bible is going to make someone join the Westboro Baptist Church. Also, the most powerful countries are the least religious ones.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I do find it odd that Susan didn't just give the Bible away to a charity shop, rather than this song and dance about 'not creating more work for her sons than necessary.' Sheesh, it's just one book, how much work would that be.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
There is, though, a difference between RD's books and the Bible: the former contain checkable, obnjective facts ...
His science books, sure. I can respect him as a scientist. His bigoted diatribes about religion ... not so much.
But RD is more tolerant than you, Susan. He at least acknowledges the importance of the Bible in, for example, the history of Western literature.
There is, in all honesty, something rather unpleasant about wanting to airbrush something out of existence. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible? No contact with other Christians, churches, books with a more consistent message, anything?
In my experience, never.
Any conversion I've ever seen (or experienced, for that matter) has always required a community, however small. The Bible requires context in order to be understood. Outside the context of a particular church or community of believers it's going to be impenetrable at best, misunderstood at worst.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Susan, thank you for your reply.
Just want to point out when I say the end of life is a passage, I am not necessarily implying an afterlife. It is just when you go from breathing to not breathing, that is a passage.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Er--I was. And I was about as pure a test case as you're going to get in a Western country.
Actually I was, sort of, too- the Gideon New Testament we were all given at school. Or at least that's what started me off. I found wwhen i read the Gospels that here was something really compelling that required some kind of response.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
. quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What would it take to change your mind Susan Doris? I remember my Dad about 3 years before he died reading through the OT. He was a committed catholic but said he did not want to die without reading it all. Interestingly he was fascinated by Ecclesiastes. At his age he could look back on all the" useless, useless, useless" stuff in his life.
I cannot imagine anything that would change my mind about all gods being products of human imagination, and I certainly can’t put the books back together again!
As a matter of interest, since you mentioned it, I went to google and looked up the first chapter of Ecclesiastes! Certainly, common sense and co-operation have enabled our species’ survival!
Ecclesiastes is really interesting in several ways. It seems to be an attempt by Solomon to sate all physical appetites as a kind of experiment to see if any lasting satisfaction can be attained. In an oblique kind of way the message is that physicality alone is futile. There is a kind of climactic moment at the end ch 12 I think where suddenly he urges the reader to remember that for all these actions God will require an account but the clincher is the injunction to remember the creator while one still can " before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl crushed" which is rather a beautiful metaphor for death.
You might have look if you are interested.
I did not realise your limitations and do admire your courage and determination. I think you are dreadfully mistaken in your convictions of God's absence but I live with someone just the same so am not surprised.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
I re-read Ecclesiastes recently. It's a great book. Astonishingly post-modern.
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible?
I have a couple of atheist/New Age friends who've read the Bible and were unmoved by it, but I also know a couple of people who read it and came to Christ as a result.
SusanDoris, I hope indeed that your technical problems are sorted out soon. Must be frustrating for you. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Susan Doris, I'm still quite puzzled by this thread. If you are completely convinced that you do not believe in any God, why is it still such an issue to you whether you destroy a Bible and Prayer Book or why and how you do so? And even more than that, why do you feel the need to come on a Christian discussion board to tell everyone about it and ask us what we think?
Are you saying 'Look at me'? Or have you got a secret fear that for destroying sacred objects, a great Monty Python like foot will descend from above? Are you hoping some Christians will say to you, 'no it won't' or, 'no, for doing this you won't go to hell when you die'? Because if so, we can't speak on God's behalf. We won't and shouldn't. It is not a request which one person can ask another or expect them to answer.
You say it's just so that your family will have two less things to dispose of when you are gone, but is that all there is to it. They're quite small. If it were, why write it up? Or does it represent something more to you?
It's probably cheek of me to say this, but your OP reads as one who isn't quite as comfortable in their atheist skin as they'd present themselves to be. A few years ago Professor Dawkins tried to kidnap the adjective 'bright' to describe his corpus of negative beliefs. From our side of that divide, 'brittle' feels a more accurate description.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Brenda Clough
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Bibliolatry is no different from any other idolatry.
A book is paper pulp (or linen pulp, I suppose) with a sprinkling of chemicals. They are the hardware, the pattern of the ink chemicals being the software. They are alive all right. But they live only in the wetware -- when they are downloaded into our heads and hearts. All other manifestations are meaningless.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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The Midge
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Brenda, that is why despotic regimes spend so much effort burning books they disagree with and persecuting artists and writers.
The pen is mightier.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Brenda Clough
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And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
The only way it does work is to mess with the language itself. (Orwell was right!) The Chinese government has simplified pinying, the written Chinese characters. The goal is to make Chinese easier to use in a modern setting, typewriters and internet and so on. But the actual result is to make all Chinese writings older than 1960 or so impossible for younger people to read.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Banner Lady
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On recycling bibles:
Many many old KJV's get passed along to me because people know that 1) I am a dedicated recycler and 2) I am a dedicated Christ follower.
My first struggle with this issue happened when my father's Sunday school bible was given to me. Leather bound, with gold rimmed pages and inscribed as a gift from the Methodist superintendent in the 1920's - he never used it. Doubt it was ever opened. Just passed down to me as a "significant object" that had belonged to my dad. It sat on a shelf until the binding gave way, and then I decided to put it to use for a craft project. None of my kids would read it anyway.
Really lovely bigger bibles with engravings and a place for recording family history I keep as wedding presents (Something "old"). Even if the bride and groom are not religious, they don't seem to mind anything meant as a blessing to them. At the very least it is somewhere "safe" and "nice" to record family stuff.
Now I have no qualms about composting damaged bibles or putting them in the paper recycling bin. I happily burn them too, for the ash to be used on our garden. "Earth to earth and ashes to ashes". If "the earth is the Lord's and everything in it" then redistributing the molecules of such items doesn't really matter.
If the bibles I am given are a more modern version, I send them to one of the correctional centre chaplains. She gives them away all the time in her work, and is grateful for the supply.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I don't want to get rid of the bible, though we could lose many copies, but I want to get rid of the way so many people read it, as if it was a message from a being, or an argument for that beings existence.
There's a general point in there which I like. The free availability of written material of all sorts strikes me as right in principle, but only if our forms of education encourage people to develop both critical appreciation and confidence in their ability to think for themselves.
One of the issues demonstrated by the internet is that free availability of information may be misused to deceive and delude the unwary. But I think that says more about the variable availability of "think for yourself" nurturing and education than the dangers of free availability of text.
SusanDoris, I think you worry about a small risk. These days, it's pretty difficult even to get Christians to read seriously and really study the bible (rather than swallow hook line and sinker various pre-digested views).
To quote Edward de Bono, "people think in order to stop thinking". The predeliction for pre-packaged solutions is a kind of easy way out of genuine thoughtfulness. Whatever else may be said about the Bible, it's hardly an obvious pre-packaged solution. Making sense of its contents, from any POV, requires much hard work and thought.
[ 15. July 2015, 08:15: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I re-read Ecclesiastes recently. It's a great book. Astonishingly post-modern.
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Are many people converted to Christianity purely as a result of reading the Bible?
I have a couple of atheist/New Age friends who've read the Bible and were unmoved by it, but I also know a couple of people who read it and came to Christ as a result.
SusanDoris, I hope indeed that your technical problems are sorted out soon. Must be frustrating for you.
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
Poetry - in the first chapter - and then a fair amount of sex and violence.
That would keep me reading.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
Poetry - in the first chapter - and then a fair amount of sex and violence.
That would keep me reading.
The problem is it keeps on implying that the violence is good and right, given most of it is apparently done by God. That's the issue there.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think I'd have got about as far as half way through Genesis before chucking it away in disgust.
A conference speaker once observed that Genesis was a useful case study of dysfunctional relationships and how not to bring up your kids.
I heard a story once re the late Randolph Churchill. Encouraged by one of his friends to read the bible (he claimed he never had), he did so. Returning to his friend, he observed that he'd read Genesis, stopped in disgust and concluded that God was "an absolute shit".
This kind of reveals the difficulties facing a 20/21st century mind coming across this stuff without any real background!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dave W.
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# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US. quote:
The only way it does work is to mess with the language itself. (Orwell was right!) The Chinese government has simplified pinying, the written Chinese characters.
Chinese characters are hanzi, not "pinying"; pinyin is a convention for transliterating Chinese into roman characters. quote:
The goal is to make Chinese easier to use in a modern setting, typewriters and internet and so on. But the actual result is to make all Chinese writings older than 1960 or so impossible for younger people to read.
Reference? There's no reason older writings couldn't be reproduced using the simplified characters.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US. quote:
The only way it does work is to mess with the language itself. (Orwell was right!) The Chinese government has simplified pinying, the written Chinese characters.
Chinese characters are hanzi, not "pinying"; pinyin is a convention for transliterating Chinese into roman characters. quote:
The goal is to make Chinese easier to use in a modern setting, typewriters and internet and so on. But the actual result is to make all Chinese writings older than 1960 or so impossible for younger people to read.
Reference? There's no reason older writings couldn't be reproduced using the simplified characters.
Yes, but they would have to be re-written and reprinted first, and only that material of interest to authorities or businesses would have priority. This is a topic of much debate among Chinese Canadians-- some parents prefer the simpler characters as easier for children to learn, but most (at least those with whom I have spoken) want children to have access to a wider range of written material. I was suprised with the passion the topic raises and in 1997 IIRC a school board meeting in Richmond BC was disrupted by demonstrators (they were discussing which characters would be used in heritage language teaching in the board's jurisdiction). I was given to understand that home-country politics was behind much of this.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And it doesn't work. Especially now. Mein Kampf is banned, but you can easily find it. A little googling and there you are.
It may be banned in a few countries, but not generally. Certainly not in the US.
AIUI the German government owns the copyright to the German-language version, and they will not allow anyone to publish it. The copyright will expire next year.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
My favourite recycling artist can be found here: Susan Hannon makes angels wings from the pages of old bibles.
I particularly like the installation where you can sit in front of them and have a snapshot taken of yourself with wings. Bravo, Susan, bravo.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I fail to see how a Bible donated to a charity shop (or whatever) will have any impact on children learning about God/gods. Charity shop books are not exactly commonly used in terms of school curricula, are they? Someone buying a donated Bible is almost certainly going to be an adult. It seems like this is a big excuse for wanting to police people's beliefs.
I thought I had made it fairly clear that I fully realise this was a drop in the ocean as far as influencing anybody was concerned. I hope, however, that when I die my sons will have one less small thing to do! quote:
I'm sorry, I don't understand your point about it being entirely human emotion. It's also human emotion that makes someone think that a place isn't holy or sacred. What do you mean here? Does atheism now demand that we don't have emotions?
Certainly not! But there are no places anywhere, no objects, no creatures of any kind which are inherently 'holy', 'spiritual', or any similar word you may choose, in its own right; the designation is 100% human. It's an empty set.
But the designation of places as not holy or not spiritual is also 100% human.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
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The home visit Tech man checked the monitor on a spare one - mine had packed up. Fortunately, I was able to order a new one from local computer shop which arrived yesterday. My clever neighbour plugged it in. So here I am this morning, much enjoying reading latest posts. Back soon with responses!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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