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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Paris attacks
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What may be of more immediate importance is how moderate Muslims in France respond.
I would say, rather, that it's more important how French people respond to moderate Muslims.
Because it must be pretty exhausting to the millions of Muslims who just want to get on with their everyday lives to be expected to comment on and condemn what was done by some random horrible person they've never met. No other group experiences that as much right now.
I'm rarely expected to answer for the behaviour of random Australians. The only time I can recall it happening was when a Scottish National Party stalwart took issue with our former Prime Minister's intervention in the independence referendum. Perhaps occasionally I have to deal with something that has been done by lawyers, or public servants, or gays, but none of it is on a level with being associated with mass murderers and being required to express remorse for something I had absolutely nothing to do with.
No-one should be placing pressure on moderate Muslims to provide the solution, because they're not the problem. They're the victims. Charlie Hebdo showed this pretty clearly. The policeman/bodyguard killed in cold blood outside the building was Muslim. The employee at the Jewish supermarket who saved the lives of a whole bunch of people was Muslim.
The only people who should answer for these attacks in any way are the people who were involved in organising and planning them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
rolyn. It's about proportionality. That's what 'we' do. Until 'they' cross the line and then the gloves come off. They've crossed it twice now. Raqqa's days are numbered. Putting my tin hat on, I'd use a Tu-160 to leaflet it at 05:00 giving a quarter of a million people a generous 12 hours to leave, followed by a maximum naval cruise missile strike on the dot at 17:00, Tu-95 carpet bombing at 17:10 and airborne landings to mop up and run down from the cauterized heart.
You only have to do it every 10 years.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
I don't think moderate Muslims need to defend themselves any more than moderate Christians need to defend themselves over the actions of extremist nutbar Christians. I do, however, think that Western nations need to take care not to discriminate against and alienate moderate Muslims because of the extremist Jihadist factions lest we aid in their recruitment to groups like ISIL.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Over 2,600 people have drowned trying to reach europe this year, over 3,000 people die on French roads each year.
What has happened is horrific, but the state needs to retain a sense of perspective. Over reaction will increase the sense of panic and worsen the situation in the medium term as it warps the public's perception of risk.
(The french government might also want to consider whether having assault weapons and semi automatic rifles available for legal sale is a good idea.)
[ 14. November 2015, 10:06: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What may be of more immediate importance is how moderate Muslims in France respond.
I would say, rather, that it's more important how French people respond to moderate Muslims.
Yes, that's better. However, I think there is a Muslim Council of France (as there is a Muslim Council of Britain). Statements of sorrow for the victims and distancing those you represent from other co-religionists can help.
The MCB issued this early statement.
I agree with you that the folks who have to answer for atrocities are those who commit them and those who aid and direct them.
[ 14. November 2015, 10:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The risk is that of terrorism eroding democracy still further.
While short-term security measures are understandable, I believe the long-term answer, inasmuch as there is one, counterintuitively, is to promote openness and freedom, including relgious freedom, not restrict it.
In France, I believe that involves acknowledgement of religion in the public sphere - secularity instead of secularism. Allowing peaceable Islam more room to breathe might mitigate the siren song of radicalization somewhat.
The best possible outcome of atrocities like this to my mind is that they might encourage many moderate Muslims to reject radicalization and spur on modernization on the part of Islam as a whole.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
One thing I feel in my bones is that last night's bunch of murderers, and any that might follow them, are uniting Europe in a way that that nothing else possible could have.
And NO not against moderate Muslims. This fight is specically against those planning terror, and indoctrinating those into carrying out last night's terror. No one else.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Eutychus.
@rolyn. That's 'our' fight. Against 'their' fight. Against 'us'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
What would be directly useful would be to increase and put more money into de-radicalization programmes, preferably with immediate effect. Not just to monitor people who might go that way. It would be necessary to get imams on board; some might be trained to do this, but there definitely needs to be more of an effort to shift that kind of thinking. The problem is that pre-radicals and the already radicalized reinforce each other's beliefs and actions and they normalize stuff (e.g. suicide bombings) that at earlier points in their lives almost none of them would ever have considered doing.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We also need to reduce the pool of "radicalisable" people. Which means we need to reduce those who feel marginalised, oppressed and hard done by. Which means we need to actively oppose those in our nations who would seek to define Muslims as an unwelcome "other", we need to fight racism, Islamophobia and all the other forces that seek to make the Muslims in our lands second class citizens. We need actively welcome people into our societies as equals. We need to actively campaign against actions that lead to increased inequality within our nations. And, we need to find better ways of dealing with international relationships than bombs and bullets.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
rolyn. It's about proportionality. That's what 'we' do. Until 'they' cross the line and then the gloves come off. They've crossed it twice now. Raqqa's days are numbered. Putting my tin hat on, I'd use a Tu-160 to leaflet it at 05:00 giving a quarter of a million people a generous 12 hours to leave, followed by a maximum naval cruise missile strike on the dot at 17:00, Tu-95 carpet bombing at 17:10 and airborne landings to mop up and run down from the cauterized heart.
You only have to do it every 10 years.
The problem with that is that Daesh is likely to prevent non-members from leaving, and then use the strike to blame the west for it's anti-Muslim crusade.
[ 14. November 2015, 12:46: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think marginalised and relationally isolated people in desperate search of a moral compass drift towards fighting in Syria because they see it as a way of infusing meaning into their lives, a cause opposed to the system which has never done them any favours, with a vague (and for them, missing) spiritual dimension as a bonus.
The reports of British jihadis taking copies of Islam for Dummies to Syria would tend to confirm that among the foot soldiers religion is not the primary motivation. Article.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
We also need to reduce the pool of "radicalisable" people. Which means we need to reduce those who feel marginalised, oppressed and hard done by. Which means we need to actively oppose those in our nations who would seek to define Muslims as an unwelcome "other", we need to fight racism, Islamophobia and all the other forces that seek to make the Muslims in our lands second class citizens. We need actively welcome people into our societies as equals. We need to actively campaign against actions that lead to increased inequality within our nations. And, we need to find better ways of dealing with international relationships than bombs and bullets.
With all honesty, I don't think this is going to happen. Whilst it is true that extreme ideas feed of perceived injustices, the fact is that this particular extreme idea believes is is right and everyone else - democracy, human rights, dignity, etc - is against them and ergo against the will of God.
There is no logic here, attempting to analyse it and defeat it with logic is never going to work.
IIRC my pseudo-scifi genre correctly, it is like the people of Krikkit in the HGtTG - where a small population emerged from a dustcloud, discovered that they were not alone in the universe, decided they didn't like it and went "I can't live with all those fuckers, let's destroy them."
Beyond a certain level of fanaticism, I don't think you can be talked down from the extreme position. I don't think you can identify the radicalisable and I don't think you can simply make certain people's lives better and imagine that the extremeness will go away. Because religious belief is not like that. Two people exposed to the same information respond in completely different ways.
And in fact I think efforts to identify the radicalisable would likely make things worse (racial profiling, suspension of human rights and so on).
Fuck, we live in difficult times.
[ 14. November 2015, 13:49: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
An article here made a rather interesting point in relation to the Schengen agreement that hadn't occurred to me: "The free movement of people across multiple borders means Europe's security agencies have no idea who is actually in their country."
It also said this made it more difficult to track weapons.
I hadn't really thought about the significance of France closing its borders in that context. I mean, a country closing its borders in response is not surprising, but I'd forgotten that normally France's borders are wide open and there's no record of people moving from country to country.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
We also need to reduce the pool of "radicalisable" people. Which means we need to reduce those who feel marginalised, oppressed and hard done by. Which means we need to actively oppose those in our nations who would seek to define Muslims as an unwelcome "other", we need to fight racism, Islamophobia and all the other forces that seek to make the Muslims in our lands second class citizens. We need actively welcome people into our societies as equals. We need to actively campaign against actions that lead to increased inequality within our nations. And, we need to find better ways of dealing with international relationships than bombs and bullets.
You can pray for this. But will we actually do anything at all at all at all? Necessarily it would involve leaving lots of resource money in the countries where the resources are. None of us in our western countries are going to agree to a massive reduction in standard of living and income so people elsewhere have more. Our impositions of culture, econmic policy, trade deals which favour us, pretense of democracy when we really mean follow our directions. Support of dictators because it is good for our business. Cheap products us the priority. Would we really accept low wage part time jobs with no benefits for our children's permanent future?
I get apocalyptic and end times thinking, and wonder where the next Sarajevo is. Bin Laden thought the Sept 11 attacks would create it. The Project for a New American Century thought it would too (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, other pre 2001 radical American neoconservatives wanted a Pearl Harbour like event so America could justify domination, which has certainly helped conspiracy theories). It does make me wonder if 150 or 4000 lives are Stalin's mere statistic, and an unstable Middle East merely an economic policy. Wars and rumours or wars, terror, drones - all are good for business. We are prepared via our governments and international organizations to use up people like any other commidity.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
An article here made a rather interesting point in relation to the Schengen agreement that hadn't occurred to me: "The free movement of people across multiple borders means Europe's security agencies have no idea who is actually in their country."
It also said this made it more difficult to track weapons.
I hadn't really thought about the significance of France closing its borders in that context. I mean, a country closing its borders in response is not surprising, but I'd forgotten that normally France's borders are wide open and there's no record of people moving from country to country.
Some years ago I talked with a police contact at the French Embassy in London about the (previous version of) refugee camp in Calais. He said to me that the French government had no way to control the movement of people due to Schengen, and unless the police had some reason to check a person travelling across France, had no legal way to put barriers in the way of free movement in the zone.
Of course, recent events in the migrant crisis have shown how European nations have changed their views on this - but perhaps it shows the downside of the free-movement area and the attitude of some nations (particularly France) to people moving in and out.
I'm also reminded of those huge ghostly mothballed barrier gates between France and Belgium on some of the main roads. Given the amount of traffic which is moving just between those two countries, tighter border controls would be very disruptive.
[ 14. November 2015, 14:04: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I get apocalyptic and end times thinking, and wonder where the next Sarajevo is. Bin Laden thought the Sept 11 attacks would create it. The Project for a New American Century thought it would too (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, other pre 2001 radical American neoconservatives wanted a Pearl Harbour like event so America could justify domination, which has certainly helped conspiracy theories). It does make me wonder if 150 or 4000 lives are Stalin's mere statistic, and an unstable Middle East merely an economic policy. Wars and rumours or wars, terror, drones - all are good for business. We are prepared via our governments and international organizations to use up people like any other commidity.
And of course Naomi Klein says that governments use times like this to bring in massive changes in the human rights and freedoms of the many under the guise of "defeating terrorism". The Shock Doctrine is a very scary book.
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arse
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Beyond a certain level of fanaticism, I don't think you can be talked down from the extreme position.
It's the same kind of thing as undoing brainwashing by cults. There has been some success in de-radicalizing people on a small scale here. I say small scale because it tends to be one-to-one initiatives rather than large groups, and that takes time and resources.
It isn't logical, emotional beliefs aren't logical, but they have a logic of their own and sometimes it is possible to get through to people on that level.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
An article here made a rather interesting point in relation to the Schengen agreement that hadn't occurred to me: "The free movement of people across multiple borders means Europe's security agencies have no idea who is actually in their country."
It also said this made it more difficult to track weapons.
I hadn't really thought about the significance of France closing its borders in that context. I mean, a country closing its borders in response is not surprising, but I'd forgotten that normally France's borders are wide open and there's no record of people moving from country to country.
It isn't really the record prior, but the movement itself. Many of the people involved in the transfer of resources are not on record as such. Knowing a person has crossed your borders is irrelevant if this is the only bit of information you have.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Beyond a certain level of fanaticism, I don't think you can be talked down from the extreme position.
But the hope, is it not, is that people can be talked to BEFORE they get to that level. You can't get them out of the tower, but you can perhaps prevent them climbing the ladder in the first place. Or at least some of them.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Beyond a certain level of fanaticism, I don't think you can be talked down from the extreme position.
But the hope, is it not, is that people can be talked to BEFORE they get to that level. You can't get them out of the tower, but you can perhaps prevent them climbing the ladder in the first place. Or at least some of them.
Broadly yes, I would say so.
Actually, fanatical cults do sometimes just deflate and die, but I've no idea why. I assume it's been researched though.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
A detailed discussion of "What ISIS Really Wants" appeared in
The Atlantic earlier this year. This is an apocalyptic, genocidal movement that would like nothing better than to draw the West into an enormous war, and the author suggests that our best option is to allow the "caliphate" to destroy itself -- "to slowly bleed it, through air strikes and proxy warfare" and watch while it fails to achieve its goals and thus loses its credibility and collapses.
Another useful piece in Slate counters the notion that ISIS harkens back to medieval violence, arguing that ISIS is actually "not re-enacting the seventh-century Arab conquests, even though some among its ranks may think they are. They’re nostalgic for a make-believe past, and those among them who know plenty about Islam’s first decades have conveniently revised medieval history to fit modern ideological needs."
Finally, I think we would do well to read the Islamic State's statement claiming responsibility for these attacks. Paris is described as "the lead carrier of the cross in Europe," France and Germany are called "crusader nations," and the Parisians at restaurants and a concert hall are "pagans." The true audience for this is their own people and potential recruits, so we should ask ourselves who would find this attractive? And how can we make our own way of life more attractive than this?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I have not seen video of the attack on Jihadi John. ISIS does not have an established HQ in one local. Its leadership is spread out and they move in largely unpredictable patterns.
Undoubtedly there were ground assets involved in finding him. We need to develop more of such assets to find the rest of ISIS leadership.
We will need to use a combination of ground assets, commandos, and airstrikes to further degrade ISIS.
But we also need to work to find a solution to the civil war in Syria.
There will also need to be work on how to track those who are returning from the jihad in Syria and prevent the radicalization of disaffected Muslim youth.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
ISIS does not have an established HQ in one local.
Yes, it does - in Raqqa.
quote:
Its leadership is spread out and they move in largely unpredictable patterns.
It has a clear leader - Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was declared caliph last year. The leadership is not spread out in the way al-Qaeda's leadership is/was, because ISIS holds territory. If it's unpredictable, I think that's because we have failed to take them seriously and have poor intel.
[ 14. November 2015, 17:36: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There will also need to be work on how to track those who are returning from the jihad in Syria and prevent the radicalization of disaffected Muslim youth.
Try telling the French Police that Gramps.
It seems they have been literally swamped with leads on radicalised individuals, terror plots, sleeper cells and what-have-you. They reckon that what happened last night was almost an inevertability.
You,ve got the Atlantic Ocean to protect you from the fucked up mess of Arab Spring. We need a ground force in Syria and N. Iraq to mop up these bass-tads . We need massively improved intelligence in Europe together with draconian new powers to apprehend anyone with links to terrorism.
< yes this rant is probably better placed on Hell, but what the hell >
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
ISIS does not have an established HQ in one local.
Yes, it does - in Raqqa.
quote:
Its leadership is spread out and they move in largely unpredictable patterns.
It has a clear leader - Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was declared caliph last year. The leadership is not spread out in the way al-Qaeda's leadership is/was, because ISIS holds territory. If it's unpredictable, I think that's because we have failed to take them seriously and have poor intel.
Yes Ruth, thinking IS is like Al Quaeda is a grave mistake & one that has led us to not take them seriously enough.
This article from The Atlantic, March 2015 offers interesting insights into ISIS What ISIS really want
[ 14. November 2015, 19:23: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Yes, I read it at the time and it was the first link in my first post on this page.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yes, I read it at the time and it was the first link in my first post on this page.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) Great minds and all that!
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Well, that's not how I was expecting my Friday night to go...
This morning I'm more angry than upset. This is the second time this has happened to us in less than a year. Parisians deserve better than this.
Very glad you are safe la vie,
As one of many who live in the capital city of their home country I am always conscious that this means we may have to deal with a random attack. Random is scary but I would much rather deal with random than have to live in a permanent warzone. It is probably never going to be possible to insulate ourselves entirely from these assaults, but a lot of governments are working hard and co-operatively - the sight of the Sydney Opera House lit of up in tricolour last night, along with other significant buildings around the world in a show of solidarity was heartening.
I have heard that more people die from random bicycle accidents than random terrorist attacks, so I guess perspective and controlling the fear factor is important. Churchill certainly understood this during WWII.
Being defiantly and determinedly alive with our faces set towards all that is kind and good, noble and peaceable is probably the only weapon most of us have no matter what we would like to see done by those in power.
I do however, sometimes wonder whether that will be enough, and if enough of the world feels the same way for there to be positive change.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
We also need to reduce the pool of "radicalisable" people. Which means we need to reduce those who feel marginalised, oppressed and hard done by. Which means we need to actively oppose those in our nations who would seek to define Muslims as an unwelcome "other", we need to fight racism, Islamophobia and all the other forces that seek to make the Muslims in our lands second class citizens. We need actively welcome people into our societies as equals. We need to actively campaign against actions that lead to increased inequality within our nations. And, we need to find better ways of dealing with international relationships than bombs and bullets.
You can pray for this. But will we actually do anything at all at all at all? Necessarily it would involve leaving lots of resource money in the countries where the resources are.
I was thinking primarily about our own countries rather than necessarily looking at the international relations, although that is certainly part of the problem.
It hasn't been established who the criminals in Paris were, neither those who died nor their accomplices and others who planned and directed the attacks (if there are others). But, previous terrorist attacks in Europe have all involved nationals from that country - the Madrid bombers included Spanish citizens and long term residents, as did the Tube bombs in London. Which makes a lot of sense, to prepare for such an attack you need to know the country to identify targets and gather bomb materials and weapons. Someone who has no connection to the country where the attack will take place is not going to be able to be around for extended periods without raising suspicion.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And in fact I think efforts to identify the radicalisable would likely make things worse (racial profiling, suspension of human rights and so on).
I wasn't thinking about identifying radicalisable individuals, nor even specific communities where people may be radicalisable. I was thinking more of the conditions that lend themselves towards increased radicalisation, and that may not be just towards Islamic radicalisation - if we can reduce the number of potential Anders Breivik's as well that would also be a benefit.
It happens that I believe the policies we need to pursue are also good for lots of other reasons as well. So, it's a win-win situation. We need to pursue policies leading to raising equality and dignity, policies that raise the standards of living of the poor, that provide them opportunities to work and improve their own lives. In the UK that would mean reversing the policies of our current government that increase inequality and reduce opportunity for the poor. A more rapid increase in the minimum wage, increased welfare access to those in need, better access to education including more support for university education for those who cannot pay the extortionate fees that they're allowed to charge, improvements in housing and provision of services (buses, libraries, health, social services, community services etc). And, a reduction in tax breaks and back-handers to the wealthy.
Of course, we'll still have to deal with those who have already started down the road to radicalisation, and there will always be a small number of people from more affluent backgrounds who for various reasons are radicalised. I'm not talking about quick fixes, but long term approaches that may not have a big effect on the number of radicalised individuals for the next 5-10 years.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
I saw the Twitter traffic when ISIS started up last year - when they declared war against everyone - and even pissed off the Saudis by declairing an intention to blow up the Ka'ba as it was viewed by them as an idol.
They're "more Muslim than the Muslims" types... moonbat insane.
if I may - what SHOULD have been done back then was for the ISIS sympathisers to have been flown out there - and time-on-target info shared between the major states ISIS threatened. Sail a few SSBNs into the area, negotiate some overflight corridors with Syria and Iraq when ISIS was in the middle of nowhere...
Then hit them hard. With Trident or Tomahawk missiles. Think "mission given to USS Alabama during Crimson Tide".
But somehow there wasn't the political will.
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
ISIS does not have an established HQ in one local.
Yes, it does - in Raqqa.
quote:
Its leadership is spread out and they move in largely unpredictable patterns.
It has a clear leader - Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was declared caliph last year. The leadership is not spread out in the way al-Qaeda's leadership is/was, because ISIS holds territory. If it's unpredictable, I think that's because we have failed to take them seriously and have poor intel.
Yes Ruth, thinking IS is like Al Quaeda is a grave mistake & one that has led us to not take them seriously enough.
This article from The Atlantic, March 2015 offers interesting insights into ISIS What ISIS really want
ISIS are trying to get nuclear missiles' aren't they?
Why not have a combined NATO/USSR/Saudi strike on Raqqa? Raise the ambient temperature somewhat?
Considering the way Jordan are kicking ISIS arse - and they've pissed everyone off...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Allan Cresswell
We need to pursue policies leading to raising equality and dignity, policies that raise the standards of living of the poor, that provide them opportunities to work and improve their own lives.
Yes. Yes please. The rest of your post is also fully agreeable, as applied to other countries. But how? I am away on a short holiday this week until tomorrow, where the conversation includes past problems that seem the same for the last 50 years we all recall. The difference presently is death is visiting our societies directly versus on other continents. I find despair in all of it. How do we do what you say? (not putting you on the spot with this, I am asking what practical steps I can do).
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
RuthW
In June 2015 the US Air Force claimed it destroyed ISIS headquarters.
In October 2015 the Russian Air Force claimed it destroyed ISIS headquarters
Trying to destroy the headquarters of ISIS is like playing Wack O Mole. It keeps popping up.
Moreover according to the New York TimesThe Islamic State’s reclusive leader has empowered his inner circle of deputies as well as regional commanders in Syria and Iraq with wide-ranging authority, a plan to ensure that if he or other top figures are killed, the organization will quickly adapt and continue fighting, American and Iraqi intelligence officials say.
Yes, we have to go after the recognized leadership. However, it will take a long time to identify the various levels of leadership; but just killing Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi will not make the threat go away overnight.
I stand by what I have said.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Nevertheless, that didn't trigger the kind of response generated by romanlion and Kaplan Corday here.
What "kind of response" would that be?
I criticised ALL kneejerk reactions based on lack of evidence.
Do you have a problem with that?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
it must be pretty exhausting to the millions of Muslims who just want to get on with their everyday lives to be expected to comment on and condemn what was done by some random horrible person they've never met.
Absolutely.
I have recently become involved as a volunteer with an asylum-seeker support group, most of whose clients are Muslim, and was talking the other day with a man from Afghanistan who fled because of the Taleban, and whose wife and kids are stuck in Iran (which despite its appalling human rights record is still an improvement on Afghanistan).
He flatly insists that the Taleban are not Muslims at all, and while at a theoretical level he might be guilty of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, at a more important level he represents global moderate Islam.
I have just got back from picking up a group of men from a weekend away (yes, I know, they shouldn't be exposed to my bus driving after all the other things they have suffered) all of whom, except for a couple of Sri Lankan Tamils, are Muslim, and who were stunned and horrified by the news from Paris.
The last thing they need is someone blaming them for it.
quote:
No other group experiences that as much right now.
It does happen though.
Even on the Ship, the Phelps family have been identified with evangelicals in general.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re radicalization and deradicalization:
Back in January, NPR's "Fresh Air" had a long interview with Maajid Nawaz (article, transcript, and audio here), who grew up in Essex, England; became an Islamist recruiter: quit, returned to England, and founded the Quilliam Foundation "counter-extremism think tank". He is also the author of Radical: My Journey Out of Islamist Extremism.
IIRC, it was a really good, honest interview.
[ 15. November 2015, 06:09: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
The reports of British jihadis taking copies of Islam for Dummies to Syria would tend to confirm that among the foot soldiers religion is not the primary motivation. Article.
That's an account of two who did. How widespread that is, is anybody's guess, but I'm guessing that it isn't that widespread given that many attended mosques regularly or became devout before they arrived.
Most of the jihadis are young men. One of the attractions, to put it bluntly, is that they're promised wives when they get there: they can have their pick of the young women and girls who run away to Syria; and they can divorce them and move on to someone else any time they please. I've heard also that drugs are rife and one of the reasons for the uninhibited violence.
From what I've seen in our mainstream news, Daesh put a lot of effort into their recruitment and promise a pretty good lifestyle with nice houses and a good standard of living (somehow they seem to omit the bombed-out houses, lack of electricity, water shortages and the amount of things you can't buy). Recruitment propaganda is slick and shows people enjoying a normal life, going swimming, harvesting crops, etc. Sadly the reality doesn't match up.
As for the young women who think it's romantic to run off and marry a jihadi, what they don't realize is that they don't always get a choice - they can put in a request for a particular man on arrival if they've known about him before, but he isn't obliged to take them, they may end up allocated to someone they don't like, and they may find themselves divorced within quite a short space of time and passed on to someone else.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Very much like a cult. I wonder who holds the power?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
This is why I think it's possible to un-brainwash them.
Power is enforced rigidly by the hierarchy with savage punishments and beatings. Once you're there, you can't leave: it's punishable by death. Also, passports are routinely destroyed on arrival as a symbol of commitment. Yes, it is cult-like: a death cult.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
My reading of recruitment is that it is mainly young people who are disenchanted with the West. What is important to realise is to be dis-enchanted they first need to be enchanted. I first started to formulate this theory after 7/7 bombings when the stories came out about the bombers. The statements often said how secularised they had been, then something had gone wrong with the secular dream. They had then turned to religion and been recruited.
The French have for a long time had a simmering pot in the banlieues which seems to me the ideal spot for developing both gangsters and disenchanted religious fanatics. It is the avoidance of so doing that is one of the forces behind the multicultural discourse in the UK. We get it wrong but we do use it to try to avoid extreme segregation. We do not do enough our welcome is too small.
These men and women are unlikely to be the truly devout Muslim raised in a deep faith setting with a maturing and developing faith. They are the new convert, who is motivated as much by the loss of their old faith in the secular west as in their current faith in the Islamic World. We know this from these boards where we have seen the zeal of the recent convert so often.
At the moment, we need to be hospitable and seek to integrate the refugees fleeing ISIS. If we manage to give them and their children a life that they feel is good then we will have some of our most loyal westerns among them. If we fail and shut them out then the children will feel that their parents betrayed them and turn to whoever replaces ISIS as disillusioned by the West as this current generation of suicide bombers.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re radicalization and deradicalization:
Back in January, NPR's "Fresh Air" had a long interview with Maajid Nawaz (article, transcript, and audio here), who grew up in Essex, England; became an Islamist recruiter: quit, returned to England, and founded the Quilliam Foundation "counter-extremism think tank". He is also the author of Radical: My Journey Out of Islamist Extremism.
IIRC, it was a really good, honest interview.
<dons tin hat>
I've always thought that the narrative from Quilliam is a bit too neat and tidy and the whole thing sounds like a trying-too-hard propaganda counter-insurgency effort by the CIA/MI6.
The whole Tommy Robinson episode was particularly weird - particularly given what he has been doing/saying recently on the immigration crisis.
In his case, leaving one far-right group into the arms of our favourite de-brainwashing thinktank has not apparently prevented him from associating with other far-right racists.
</removes tin hat>
[ 15. November 2015, 08:56: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
These men and women are unlikely to be the truly devout Muslim raised in a deep faith setting with a maturing and developing faith. They are the new convert, who is motivated as much by the loss of their old faith in the secular west as in their current faith in the Islamic World. We know this from these boards where we have seen the zeal of the recent convert so often.
The idea that those who are attracted to IS are stupid recent converts to Islam is a load of old bollocks. People that have been known to have left to Syria are from various social groups and are of various ages.
Some of those we know about are recent converts because they were recruited into the propaganda publicity machine that IS spent so much effort on. But there are a fuckload of other people who we know little about who do not meet this profile.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, I don't have a problem with you having a go at knee-jerk reactions, Kaplan and in this instance - in the heat of the moment - I had a knee-jerk response myself and assumed you were taking the opportunity to take a cheap shot at liberals and lefties. I may well have got the wrong end of the stick - in which case I apologise.
I certainly don't have an issue with any of your subsequent posts and take my hat off to you for the work you're doing - not that you're expecting me to do that but good on you for it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Krikkiters said "It's got to go.'. They would never have used profanity. Like all good ISIL members.
When the guvvamunt made going to Syria an offense and coming back more so, I reacted here with typical wishy-washy Christian luurve by saying that Christians must luurve them back with open arms.
The only reason Paris hasn't happened here is because AK's and plastique are harder to come by. Do NOT try making APNC at home. You'll have to buy something - like the Weizmann organism - that WILL flag up.
And I agree Penny S, Russia WON'T enact my scenario, just the one of inexorably squeezing the walls in on top of Western containment and harassment. Siege. 'Our' price is Paris and Metrojet Flight 9268 amongst others so far.
A safe haven needs to be made for Syrian and Iraqi Sunnis. That's all. Apart from Stockholm and Munich. In their own back yard. In the villages they've lived in for 1400 years.
Too big an ask obviously.
Wars and rumours of wars. But the end is not yet. And Christians must do what in the meantime?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
These men and women are unlikely to be the truly devout Muslim raised in a deep faith setting with a maturing and developing faith. They are the new convert, who is motivated as much by the loss of their old faith in the secular west as in their current faith in the Islamic World. We know this from these boards where we have seen the zeal of the recent convert so often.
The idea that those who are attracted to IS are stupid recent converts to Islam is a load of old bollocks. People that have been known to have left to Syria are from various social groups and are of various ages.
Some of those we know about are recent converts because they were recruited into the propaganda publicity machine that IS spent so much effort on. But there are a fuckload of other people who we know little about who do not meet this profile.
Well I am right about the first named person in the Paris attacks!
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'd suggest that you are broadly right as a general principle too, Jengie Jon, but as mr cheesy says, it's not an explanation that will fit every case - but I don't think you were applying it universally.
I think it's certainly the case that convertitis and unsettled, disaffected, disenchanted, disenfranchised young men of certain personality types and profiles can feed into all of this - but there are other factors at work too, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re radicalization and deradicalization:
Back in January, NPR's "Fresh Air" had a long interview with Maajid Nawaz (article, transcript, and audio here), who grew up in Essex, England; became an Islamist recruiter: quit, returned to England, and founded the Quilliam Foundation "counter-extremism think tank". He is also the author of Radical: My Journey Out of Islamist Extremism.
IIRC, it was a really good, honest interview.
<dons tin hat>
I've always thought that the narrative from Quilliam is a bit too neat and tidy and the whole thing sounds like a trying-too-hard propaganda counter-insurgency effort by the CIA/MI6.
The whole Tommy Robinson episode was particularly weird - particularly given what he has been doing/saying recently on the immigration crisis.
In his case, leaving one far-right group into the arms of our favourite de-brainwashing thinktank has not apparently prevented him from associating with other far-right racists.
</removes tin hat>
The first part of your post appears to indicate you are wary of their consistency. The second part seems to see you wary of the weirdness. Which one of these would you like to discuss?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
RIP....
As helped along by the religion of "P"
an excess of Pu239 might help...
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
WTF??
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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