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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The origins and spread of evil and sin within our lives
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I had been brought up to think and believe that evil was sin. Meaning that things I thought of doing, and did (or not), and the responsibility for it was in my desires or will. However, some 50 years after understanding this as a young boy and teenager, life experience seems to tell me that evil in my experience is also much more what others have done that have greatly affected me. Things like violence.
My question is how do we put the two together? Or do we? That which we have done or left undone, and, that which others have evilly done to us, traumatising us. Can we say that we 'own' any sin from evil done to us that we have not done ourselves?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I handle it by considering it all part-and-parcel of living in a ruined creation. The sin/evil within me, which issues forth in my own personal acts of sin/evil, is one tentacle of the overall monster. Everyone else has their own tentacles. And then there are the tentacles that snake through nonhuman creation, things like the really abhorrent wasp practice of laying eggs inside a living creature to eat it alive.
The reason this model is useful to me is it stops me trying to parcel out "this sin is mine, that one is yours, we can have an argument over who's responsible for this other particular mess, now what about that one..." That's a waste of time when you see the whole mess as interconnected--to change the metaphor, as a single cancer that has metastasized through the body. The point is not arguing over whose tumor is that one. The point is to get the whole damn mess straightened out as quickly and effectively as possible.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It's our responsibility to not only trap our own harmful tendencies before they are out into action, and to avoid tripping other people up too, but to also stop the evil of others in its tracks as Jesus demonstrated on the cross.
None of which is easy. If faith, hope and love remain, that helps.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I would say to the OP, have a break from this stuff. It's all too nightmarish and paranoid for my taste, and too circular also.
I know that some people have very tough lives, but I'm not sure the solution is all this stuff about cancer and monsters; it just seems guaranteed to restimulate the trauma.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Good one. Instead of focussing on sin, "what can I do to do slightly better?" can be an interesting and more positive question.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There is interesting (and chilling) biblical stuff about the "punishing the childrten for the sins of the parent to the 3rd and 4th generation" (my wording of Numbers 14:18). Which I take, not as a threat, but as a statement of truth or at least truthiness. If something bad happens to you, you carry it with you, and it affects your kids and their kids. I don't much like the idea of "ruined creation" but sometimes it fits.
I understand the caution about not dwelling on this stuff. Problem is, when it dwells externally and then comes back like a cat with 9 lives.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I believe that the consensus now is not to KEEP telling our stories, but find parallel ones, divergent ones from others. I felt so sorry for Dr. Sheila Cassidy, constantly telling her story.
But FIRST, tell your story no... Pour it out mate. This seems a new take, it needs to be said.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
We will be ambushed by our memories, sometimes years after the events, and the feelings may come flooding back, but that isn't the same thing as our continuing to press the bruise so that it never heals.
There is wisdom in that our reactions will impact not only upon ourselves but on those around us. Learning to respond with love rather than to react with hatred helps, but again it isn't easy. I see nothing wrong with setting ourselves difficult, even impossible, tasks if they will help us and others to live in a better world.
It is not about feeling guilt for not achieving perfection, but about doing our best toward it. The notion of sin is positive consciousness.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And Lamb Chopped, how is creation ruined?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I wouldn't say "ruined." That implies that creation is damaged beyond repair—or redemption. "Marred" or "broken," perhaps. Or, of course, "fallen."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How?
Through alienation from God, from the Creator.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How?
Easy peasy.
Creation is like an unbroken horse. Good. God said so.
However, it can be better.
Broken.
Subdued.
Productive.
Fruit bearing.
God commanded Adam to subdue the earth, of which his body was microcosm.
But commands can't do the job, because of the weakness of the flesh. Grace, approval, union with God, can.
So Adam needed to be IN the Garden. He needed to have immunity, be innocent about sin. To be non culpable. Non transgressive. Only the pure can see God.
However, he disobeyed the warning. He got separated from God.
Now he can only be with God again by regaining that immunity. In a different way. By becoming a citizen of another country. By becoming it's ambassador.
Diplomatic immunity.
Geddit?
2 Corinthians 12:9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm disagreeing with both Nick Tamen and footwasher. Not bad in one post.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
How?
Through alienation from God, from the Creator.
How?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I wouldn't say "ruined." That implies that creation is damaged beyond repair—or redemption. "Marred" or "broken," perhaps. Or, of course, "fallen."
Ruined, marred, broken, fallen--choose your metaphor. But certainly not beyond repair or better, resurrection--God's on it already.
What I'm referring to is a persistent sense of wrongness that winds through the current creation, which human beings express as "it shouldn't be this way." The kinds of things that fuel discussions of how God can be good and yet X happens in this world.
The most obvious case is that we have a whole species of creature (humanity) which recognizes a code of behavior seemingly inborn and expressed with minor variations in all cultures--and yet, to a man (or woman, or child) we fail to live up to it. Now that's just freaky. Birds have their birdy codes--they sing, build nests, lay eggs, and such--but they don't appear from the outside to have near the amount of trouble we have in living up to our own codes of humanity. You may find the odd murderous sparrow somewhere--a cannibalistic duck, or a greedy parrot that hoards resources in a major way--but they are odd enough that they wind up on social media under "Didja hear about this?".
Creatures that fail to follow the standards of their species are the exception, not the rule. But with us, heck, if you look at nothing but behavior, you'd never know we had a code/standard/law that was so different from our behavior. The code an alien would deduce from simple observation would be vastly different than the one that our mothers and and grandmothers taught us when we were knee high.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I wouldn't say "ruined." That implies that creation is damaged beyond repair—or redemption. "Marred" or "broken," perhaps. Or, of course, "fallen."
Ruined, marred, broken, fallen--choose your metaphor. But certainly not beyond repair or better, resurrection--God's on it already.
What I'm referring to is a persistent sense of wrongness that winds through the current creation, which human beings express as "it shouldn't be this way." The kinds of things that fuel discussions of how God can be good and yet X happens in this world.
The most obvious case is that we have a whole species of creature (humanity) which recognizes a code of behavior seemingly inborn and expressed with minor variations in all cultures--and yet, to a man (or woman, or child) we fail to live up to it. Now that's just freaky. Birds have their birdy codes--they sing, build nests, lay eggs, and such--but they don't appear from the outside to have near the amount of trouble we have in living up to our own codes of humanity. You may find the odd murderous sparrow somewhere--a cannibalistic duck, or a greedy parrot that hoards resources in a major way--but they are odd enough that they wind up on social media under "Didja hear about this?".
Creatures that fail to follow the standards of their species are the exception, not the rule. But with us, heck, if you look at nothing but behavior, you'd never know we had a code/standard/law that was so different from our behavior. The code an alien would deduce from simple observation would be vastly different than the one that our mothers and and grandmothers taught us when we were knee high.
Umm, all of nature is in competition, some species more than others. There are species of birds that murderously push their nestmates out in order to get all the feeding. Animal mothers routinely bump of the weakest in the litter...
Man is the only creature that values the image of God in a fellow human being, in some societies more than others. Special care for the weakest and the most disadvantaged, affirmative action, these are marks of progressive societies.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Re the ruined creation (or marred etc), it got me thinking to a book I read a few years ago "The Other Side of Eden" (Hugh Brody). He discussed aboriginal cultures from the Americas. How they were in tune with the rhythms of the natural world. One I recall is that he went to a west coast community to discuss setting up some sort of program or presentation. The community of people discussed when a species of fish (eulachon, if memory serves) would be coming from the ocean up the river, and decided when the program would occur based partly on that.
This makes me wonder if the words of the Joni Mitchell composition Woodstock could possibly be true at all in the world, and whether we can get ourselves back to the garden at all at all.
Thanks for leading me in this thread toward some optimism even if I don't understand how.
[ 26. January 2016, 16:51: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I wouldn't say "ruined." That implies that creation is damaged beyond repair—or redemption. "Marred" or "broken," perhaps. Or, of course, "fallen."
Ruined, marred, broken, fallen--choose your metaphor. But certainly not beyond repair or better, resurrection--God's on it already.
A lot of the old (?Reformed) theologians spoke of the Creation being "totally depraved". However a lot of people misunderstood their meaning.
For they were not saying "the whole creation is as bad as it could possibly be", but "every part of the creation has in some way been touched by sin". Not quite the same thing - and certainly allowing the hope of redemption.
[ 26. January 2016, 16:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Umm, all of nature is in competition, some species more than others. There are species of birds that murderously push their nestmates out in order to get all the feeding. Animal mothers routinely bump of the weakest in the litter...
Man is the only creature that values the image of God in a fellow human being, in some societies more than others. Special care for the weakest and the most disadvantaged, affirmative action, these are marks of progressive societies.
I was not attempting to show humanity as somehow worse than the rest of creation. All parts of creation have problems.
I was rather showing that humanity is odd in one particular way, which is that it appears to a much larger range of ... deviations? ... from its self-confessed behavioral code. The ways we go wrong appear to be more numerous, more creative, and more widespread than those of other species.
As for “marks of progressive societies,” I would argue that these are actually marks of, shall we call them, blessedly RE-gressive societies, places/times where human beings actually hew closer to the code we all acknowledge than elsewhere. The closer we are to that code, the more “human” we are and the less distorted. But of course it’s easier to go downhill than up, easier to break than to fix.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Special care for the weakest and the most disadvantaged, affirmative action, these are marks of progressive societies.
You do realise that there is a clear correlation between the most caring societies and those which are least religious don't you?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Like.
So, footwasher, creation is broken because it's not broken. Riiiiight. Who was Adam?
Lamb Chopped. None of those metaphors work.
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What for what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
I've lived in Sweden and observed the irony. Is it possible that last religious countries and atheists have figured out that the best way to pass your life is with the least amount of conflict, through altruism? Explaining their selfless attitudes?
Quote
Zuckerman sells humanity short. If people are content but no longer care about transcendent meaning and purpose or life beyond death, that's not a sign of greatness but tragic forgetfulness. Their horizon of concern is too narrow. They were made for more. What does it profit a society if, as this book's jacket notes, it gains "excellent educational systems, strong economies, well-supported arts, free health care, egalitarian social policies, outstanding bike paths, and great beer," but loses its soul? Can a country build strong social systems and keep its soul? While I am thankful for Zuckerman's reminder about Christianity's social implications, and the example of a place that meets those obligations differently than we do, I am sad he misses the rest.
Type "what the least religious nations can tell us" in Google to read the entire article.
I think the image of God manifests in people who are educated and free, as opposed to societies tyranised by organised religion, some of which work actively to keep the populace hungry and busy, scared and in debt. Free thinking is a good thing, even in religious organisations. Look at the leeway given for a broad spectrum of views in the Anglican church. I was around during the David Jenkins kerfuffle. E__pic!
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Like.
So, footwasher, creation is broken because it's not broken. Riiiiight. Who was Adam?
Lamb Chopped. None of those metaphors work.
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
Yup, just love the punnology! Adam stalled the completion of creation by not subduing his body, put to death it's capricious-ness through the Holy Spirit.
Seriously, the whole of creation waits in eager expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19).
[ 27. January 2016, 10:39: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
I think this is deeply true.
We live in an incredibly complex world with endless ways to hurt each other. Yet we live in animal bodies which struggle to leave behind the protective herd/tribe/group/flock instincts.
Have you seen how cruel chimpanzees are to those not of their own tribe? We have a common ancestor with the chimps - not so long ago in relative terms.
The miracle is the good in us. The fact that we can live in enormous cities in (relative) peace is simply amazing.
We should celebrate the positive.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The good in us, the kindness we might show to a complete stranger, the self-giving love that leads to actions against our own interests, has its origin in God. We know that instinctively. We must put words to it and distort it if we want to claim it as our own.
Or we might pretend, for our own self-interests, which leads us back to sin - the origin of which is deception, a denial of God's goodness.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Like.
So, footwasher, creation is broken because it's not broken. Riiiiight. Who was Adam?
Lamb Chopped. None of those metaphors work.
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
Yup, just love the punnology! Adam stalled the completion of creation by not subduing his body, put to death it's capricious-ness through the Holy Spirit.
Seriously, the whole of creation waits in eager expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19).
Who, what is Adam?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Like.
So, footwasher, creation is broken because it's not broken. Riiiiight. Who was Adam?
Lamb Chopped. None of those metaphors work.
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
Yup, just love the punnology! Adam stalled the completion of creation by not subduing his body, put to death it's capricious-ness through the Holy Spirit.
Seriously, the whole of creation waits in eager expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19).
Who, what is Adam?
Adam is the one who is inseparable from humanity. For any given reason, where Adam goes, humanity must go. Maybe he is the only one who can sign documents. Maybe he needs his family close by. You choose.
A good way to understand Adam is to imagine he is your father. Imagine also you are working in Monaco. The latter, as all are aware, is a tax free zone, as far as incomes are concerned.
Suppose your father committed a crime. This led to his deportation back to Blighty. Remember, where he goes you have to go. As a result of his crime, therefore, the full family must return home.
Now see what develops. Now, now, you must pay tax on your income. Not paying tax is an infraction, you are non compliant if you don't pay tax.
What has happened is that where you could formerly do something, not pay tax and be NOT in infraction, now, not paying tax makes you a transgressor.
You have moved from a zone which is free from the jurisdiction of law to a zone which is under the jurisdiction of law.
Well, that's who Adam is.
The guy who got you turfed out of a law free zone into a law infested zone!
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, it's all clear now!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Like.
So, footwasher, creation is broken because it's not broken. Riiiiight. Who was Adam?
Lamb Chopped. None of those metaphors work.
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
Yup, just love the punnology! Adam stalled the completion of creation by not subduing his body, put to death it's capricious-ness through the Holy Spirit.
Seriously, the whole of creation waits in eager expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19).
Who, what is Adam?
Adam is the one who is inseparable from humanity. For any given reason, where Adam goes, humanity must go. Maybe he is the only one who can sign documents. Maybe he needs his family close by. You choose.
A good way to understand Adam is to imagine he is your father. Imagine also you are working in Monaco. The latter, as all are aware, is a tax free zone, as far as incomes are concerned.
Suppose your father committed a crime. This led to his deportation back to Blighty. Remember, where he goes you have to go. As a result of his crime, therefore, the full family must return home.
Now see what develops. Now, now, you must pay tax on your income. Not paying tax is an infraction, you are non compliant if you don't pay tax.
What has happened is that where you could formerly do something, not pay tax and be NOT in infraction, now, not paying tax makes you a transgressor.
You have moved from a zone which is free from the jurisdiction of law to a zone which is under the jurisdiction of law.
Well, that's who Adam is.
The guy who got you turfed out of a law free zone into a law infested zone!
When?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Like.
So, footwasher, creation is broken because it's not broken. Riiiiight. Who was Adam?
Lamb Chopped. None of those metaphors work.
The origin and spread of the evil and sin within our lives is a result of the exponential increase in complexity caused by the evolution of sapience.
Yup, just love the punnology! Adam stalled the completion of creation by not subduing his body, put to death it's capricious-ness through the Holy Spirit.
Seriously, the whole of creation waits in eager expectation for the full revelation of the sons of God (Romans 8:19).
Who, what is Adam?
Adam is the one who is inseparable from humanity. For any given reason, where Adam goes, humanity must go. Maybe he is the only one who can sign documents. Maybe he needs his family close by. You choose.
A good way to understand Adam is to imagine he is your father. Imagine also you are working in Monaco. The latter, as all are aware, is a tax free zone, as far as incomes are concerned.
Suppose your father committed a crime. This led to his deportation back to Blighty. Remember, where he goes you have to go. As a result of his crime, therefore, the full family must return home.
Now see what develops. Now, now, you must pay tax on your income. Not paying tax is an infraction, you are non compliant if you don't pay tax.
What has happened is that where you could formerly do something, not pay tax and be NOT in infraction, now, not paying tax makes you a transgressor.
You have moved from a zone which is free from the jurisdiction of law to a zone which is under the jurisdiction of law.
Well, that's who Adam is.
The guy who got you turfed out of a law free zone into a law infested zone!
When?
When Adam chose to have immediate access to knowledge of good and evil.
How?
First, let's see where the explanation of how sin made its first appearance, by Augustine, went wrong and how THAT happened.
Augustine made a mistake with his use of a wrong Latin translation of Romans 5:12 which used a preposition which is considered to be the most disastrous preposition in history.
QUOTE
But Augustine did not devise the concept of original sin. It was his use of specific New Testament scriptures to justify the doctrine that was new. The concept itself had been shaped from the late second century onward by certain church fathers, including Irenaeus, Origen and Tertullian. Irenaeus did not use the Scriptures at all for his definition; Origen reinterpreted the Genesis account of Adam and Eve in terms of a Platonic allegory and saw sin deriving solely from free will; and Tertullian’s version was borrowed from Stoic philosophy.
http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227
Instead of understanding it as "because", Augustine understood it as "in whom":
Quote
Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.
(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:
the Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”
More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form ofepi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”.
So, according to Augustine all sinned “in Adam”, which he understood as meaning that because Adam sinned every other human being, each of his descendants, is counted as a sinner. This is his doctrine of “original sin”, that every human is born a sinner and deserves death because of it. He may have taken up this idea because it agreed with his former Manichaean theology. This teaching is fundamental to most Protestant as well as Roman Catholic teaching today. For example, it underlies the Protestant (not just Calvinist) teaching of total depravity, that the unsaved person can do nothing good, a teaching for which there is little biblical basis apart from Augustine’s misunderstanding which was followed by Calvin.
http://www.gentlewisdom.org/246/augustines-mistake-about-sin/
That's right folks, it's:
because Adam sinned that sin entered the world,
NET Bible
So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned--
NOT:
it's because we all have sinned in Adam that sin entered the world,
Douay-Rheims Bible
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
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Ship's crimp
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Is it really necessary to SHOUT in capitals with each other? Do you think you can learn to code and quote posts properly, please, footwasher?
Your posts would be a lot easier to comprehend if you used italics or bold to highlight things you think are particularly important - and used the quotation code functions listed below the box where you type your posts.
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arse
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is it really necessary to SHOUT in capitals with each other? Do you think you can learn to code and quote posts properly, please, footwasher?
Your posts would be a lot easier to comprehend if you used italics or bold to highlight things you think are particularly important - and used the quotation code functions listed below the box where you type your posts.
A thousand apologies! I shall dust of my 10 pound laptop and apply it to the task. I actually have Quark Xpress loaded on it and believe you me, I know how to use it!
The smartphone is retired forthwith.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
So.
We had ancestors, who were all animal. A common ancestor with chimpanzees. Slowly, over millions of years, we evolved to become human with immediate access to knowledge of good and evil.
One of these humans was in a position to choose human behaviour (kindness to neighbours/strangers) over animal behaviour? (rip their face off and eat their babies). This was Adam?
In what way did he - poor man! - cause things to be evil for the rest of us?
I think we all have the choice - give in to the 'Chimp' or rise above it. This choice is exercised all day, every day, minute by minute.
[ 28. January 2016, 10:27: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Boogie: I think we all have the choice - give in to the 'Chimp' or rise above it. This choice is exercised all day, every day, minute by minute.
Good one. When I think about 'sin' and dealing with sin, rising above our evolutional constraints is a good way of looking at it. It's not all there is to sin, and it is a bit more complex than that (not all our evolutional instincts are bad), but it is an interesting viewpoint to be looking at sin.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So.
We had ancestors, who were all animal. A common ancestor with chimpanzees. Slowly, over millions of years, we evolved to become human with immediate access to knowledge of good and evil.
One of these humans was in a position to choose human behaviour (kindness to neighbours/strangers) over animal behaviour? (rip their face off and eat their babies). This was Adam?
In what way did he - poor man! - cause things to be evil for the rest of us?
I think we all have the choice - give in to the 'Chimp' or rise above it. This choice is exercised all day, every day, minute by minute.
The choice is not animal or moral creature. It was noble spirit/noble body configuration or noble spirit/ignoble body (unrestrained, untamed, unsubdued body) configuration.
A useful way to look at it is as humanity had an opportunity to finish college, but partied, and dropped out. The unfortunate bit is, apart from non fulfillment of potential, is that now that humanity is flipping burgers, it doesn't have the support system to do evening class.
That lacuna is filled by Christ.
Being IN Christ fills in for being IN the Garden. Foreshadowed by the Promised Land, the Kingdom of God...
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
footwasher: A useful way to look at it is as humanity had an opportunity to finish college, but partied, and dropped out.
The analogy does nothing for me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The choice is not animal or moral creature. It was noble spirit/noble body configuration or noble spirit/ignoble body (unrestrained, untamed, unsubdued body) configuration.
At what point in our evolution did we/Adam have a noble spirit/noble body configuration? And, if we did, how did we survive considering we/Adam would have had our faces ripped off if we didn't fight back?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
And giving in to the chimp is also useful for humans. OK, we learn to use violence in controlled ways, and in socially adapted ways, but the state is often said to have a monopoly of violence, except in extreme situations, as in Syria.
For someone like myself, living in a place such as London, violence is rarely called for, but I do rely on the state, and its 'bodies of armed men'.
But other animals also moderate violence; they don't go around ripping each other's throats out. They also use submission and other means as a way of avoiding it, see your local wolf pack.
Doesn't evolution deal with all this?
[ 28. January 2016, 11:45: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
Post a quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
The choice is not animal or moral creature. It was noble spirit/noble body configuration or noble spirit/ignoble body (unrestrained, untamed, unsubdued body) configuration.
At what point in our evolution did we/Adam have a noble spirit/noble body configuration? And, if we did, how did we survive considering we/Adam would have had our faces ripped off if we didn't fight back?
It was the desired result, not a completed possession passed from God to Adam. The project was a partnering between them, rather like a father and son embarking on completing an assembly kit.
The situation in the Genisis account describes a presentation of an incomplete creation, of which Adam was a part. God's instruction was to subdue it. So the raw material was noble spirit in an untamed body. His task was to put death the deeds of the body through the Holy Spirit, accessible to those in the Garden. Even now, believers are instructed to put to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit, which those in Christ have access to.
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
footwasher: A useful way to look at it is as humanity had an opportunity to finish college, but partied, and dropped out.
The analogy does nothing for me.
Nothing wrong with partying.My children see me do it. It's the intent. I do it to enjoy company, be entertained by the creativity, insight and mostly spontaneity of the human mind. My children do it wrong when they do it instead of attending to training, and intending to be autonomous when they are not ready. It's a rebellious intent.
[ 28. January 2016, 12:15: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
And giving in to the chimp is also useful for humans. OK, we learn to use violence in controlled ways, and in socially adapted ways, but the state is often said to have a monopoly of violence, except in extreme situations, as in Syria.
For someone like myself, living in a place such as London, violence is rarely called for, but I do rely on the state, and its 'bodies of armed men'.
But other animals also moderate violence; they don't go around ripping each other's throats out. They also use submission and other means as a way of avoiding it, see your local wolf pack.
Doesn't evolution deal with all this?
It's a manifestation of conditioned reflex. Tigers and lions adopt different social structures because one lives in the plains, the other in thick jungle...
[ 28. January 2016, 12:18: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
footwasher: Nothing wrong with partying.My children see me do it. It's the intent. I do it to enjoy company, be entertained by the creativity, insight and mostly spontaneity of the human mind. My children do it wrong when they do it instead of attending to training, and intending to be autonomous when they are not ready. It's a rebellious intent.
Mwah. I'm familiar with the parable of the talents of course and yes, it is good to use our potential. But your comparison makes God look like this guy, and I don't like him very much.
For example, there needs to be a reason why we should attend training instead of partying.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
And giving in to the chimp is also useful for humans. OK, we learn to use violence in controlled ways, and in socially adapted ways, but the state is often said to have a monopoly of violence, except in extreme situations, as in Syria.
For someone like myself, living in a place such as London, violence is rarely called for, but I do rely on the state, and its 'bodies of armed men'.
But other animals also moderate violence; they don't go around ripping each other's throats out. They also use submission and other means as a way of avoiding it, see your local wolf pack.
Doesn't evolution deal with all this?
It's a manifestation of conditioned reflex. Tigers and lions adopt different social structures because one lives in the plains, the other in thick jungle...
Hmm, I'm not sure about conditioned reflex, that sounds rather glib.
We know that some animals show cooperation, a sense of fairness, methods of punishment, of course, in a less complex way than humans. But maybe there is a lineage here. It doesn't seem all that mysterious.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
footwasher: Nothing wrong with partying.My children see me do it. It's the intent. I do it to enjoy company, be entertained by the creativity, insight and mostly spontaneity of the human mind. My children do it wrong when they do it instead of attending to training, and intending to be autonomous when they are not ready. It's a rebellious intent.
Mwah. I'm familiar with the parable of the talents of course and yes, it is good to use our potential. But your comparison makes God look like this guy, and I don't like him very much.
For example, there needs to be a reason why we should attend training instead of partying.
The text tells us that juveniles are not responsible because their perception of right and wrong are not fully developed, "before the child can tell sweet from sour", "ask him if he was blind or not, he is of age"...
The secular world tells us that the moral lobe of the brain of a juvenile is not fully developed before puberty, explaining why girls make better judgment calls than boys, they attain puberty faster...
[ 28. January 2016, 12:51: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
And giving in to the chimp is also useful for humans. OK, we learn to use violence in controlled ways, and in socially adapted ways, but the state is often said to have a monopoly of violence, except in extreme situations, as in Syria.
For someone like myself, living in a place such as London, violence is rarely called for, but I do rely on the state, and its 'bodies of armed men'.
But other animals also moderate violence; they don't go around ripping each other's throats out. They also use submission and other means as a way of avoiding it, see your local wolf pack.
Doesn't evolution deal with all this?
It's a manifestation of conditioned reflex. Tigers and lions adopt different social structures because one lives in the plains, the other in thick jungle...
Hmm, I'm not sure about conditioned reflex, that sounds rather glib.
We know that some animals show cooperation, a sense of fairness, methods of punishment, of course, in a less complex way than humans. But maybe there is a lineage here. It doesn't seem all that mysterious.
Interesting case of herds of deer near the former East German border which avoided electric fences after herd members were killed. Today, after all the original herds died out, current herd members still avoid the location, even though the fence no longer exists...
[ 28. January 2016, 12:55: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Ship's crimp
Posts: 927 | From: pearl o' the orient | Registered: Apr 2010
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The good in us, the kindness we might show to a complete stranger, the self-giving love that leads to actions against our own interests, has its origin in God. We know that instinctively. We must put words to it and distort it if we want to claim it as our own.
Nonsense - I know nothing of the sort. This, I suspect, is an assumption which you choose to believe based on the necessity of your dogma rather than evidence.
Altruistic behaviour has its justification in the needs of each of us as we perceive ourselves to be part of society within the constraints of our unconscious reactions to stimuli.
quote:
Or we might pretend, for our own self-interests, which leads us back to sin - the origin of which is deception, a denial of God's goodness.
Except that you have no evidence for God and it is clear that the imagined God is not only good but also evil - otherwise why delay his return until many billions are to be punished for their ignorance.
It is not deceptive to state simply that one is unable to believe in something which, at its simplest, is downright silly, whether that be a flat earth, foreseeing the future or the existence of God(s) and demi-gods.
As for what is deception - those who claim certainty where it cannot exist are deceptive, those who promise rewards and punishment they cannot evidence are deceptive, and those who seek out the vulnerable - children, the poor, the aged, the gullible and the infirm - in order to enrich themselves at the expense of their victims are deceptive - but it's all OK if it's in the service of their unevidenced soul?
I'll get my coat.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The good in us, the kindness we might show to a complete stranger, the self-giving love that leads to actions against our own interests, has its origin in God. We know that instinctively. We must put words to it and distort it if we want to claim it as our own.
Nonsense - I know nothing of the sort. This, I suspect, is an assumption which you choose to believe based on the necessity of your dogma rather than evidence.
To the contrary, it is based on experience rather than dogma. Evidence is seen in a small child whose smile illustrates his recognition of goodness, and whose body language gives him away when he tells lies.
I will respond to your other comments on a separate post.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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