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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Christian Atheism
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Certainly atheists do become theists of all sorts (and vice versa). However a certain percentage of converts seem to to exaggerate their former state into atheism to make a better conversion story.
BTW context is important. The fuller Brian Cox quote is
“Philosophers would rightly point out that physicists making bland and sweeping statements is naive. There is naivety in just saying there’s no God; it’s b----s,” he says. “People have thought about this. People like Leibniz and Kant. They’re not idiots. So you’ve got to at least address that.” (The Telegraph which did the interview kindly blotted out some letters)
You can read the entire Telegraph article
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Wikipedia has a list.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I think this is because, once an atheist, knowing that there are, nor ever were, any actual gods but only human ideas, you simply could not return to belief.
You're building a No True Atheist argument on a false premise, Susan Doris. You say that no atheist, after "knowing" there is no God or gods, could "return to belief." But no atheist "knows" that there aren't or never were actual gods, any more than a theist "knows" there is a God. Both are beliefs, based on evidence or lack of evidence sufficient or insufficient to persuade an individual. Whether or not there are any gods cannot be proven or known, at least not in the sense you seem to be using "knowing."
The correct premise would be that once one is an atheist, believing that there are, nor ever were, any actual gods but only human ideas, one simply could not return to belief in a God or gods. But of course, this premise is not only illogical, but also demonstrably false.
[ 14. February 2016, 14:28: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I was an atheist once. I got over it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
My thanks for above posts; yes, I knew it would be challenged, if not shot down, but went ahead anyway! quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Certainly atheists do become theists of all sorts (and vice versa). However a certain percentage of converts seem to to exaggerate their former state into atheism to make a better conversion story.
Well said!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
It is a bit frustrating when all you do is acknowledge our challenges and answer "well said!" to whoever vaguely agrees with you.
You say you believe in the scientific method. You formulated a hypothesis: atheists cannot return to belief. You are confronted with evidence that falsifies your hypothesis. Are you going to ignore the evidence or are you going to do what a scientist should do: abandon your hypothesis in face of evidence to the contrary?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Le Roc
I really do apologise for not finding quotations and info, copying it, collating and writing a post to present my arguments, and find it reallyfrustrating not to be able to do so, but there are times when the blindness makes the task just too daunting.
[ 14. February 2016, 15:28: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
My thanks for above posts; yes, I knew it would be challenged, if not shot down, but went ahead anyway! quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Certainly atheists do become theists of all sorts (and vice versa). However a certain percentage of converts seem to to exaggerate their former state into atheism to make a better conversion story.
Well said!
Hmmm. Kinda disagree. Yes, those people will exist. But if you are pretending that adamant atheists are less likely to become theists, you fail to understand human psychology. True-believers, or I suppose in this case true-unbelievers, have a higher likelihood of susceptibility to change than protection from change.
The openness to switch one's perspective for any one issue is greatly affected by many factors. The strength of conviction isn't the most important of those for most people.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I got one name after 1 second on google and a second name in the next second.
Presumably these guys weren't true atheists otherwise they wouldn't have fallen away? Otherwise they would violate the once unsaved always unsaved rule?
I used that exact line in a stand up routine one, sad to know I am just not original in my comedy!
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I really do apologise for not finding quotations and info, copying it, collating and writing a post to present my arguments
You don't need to as one can't prove a negative with a collation of information. You simply need to acknowledge that a number of us provided information on atheists who became theists; including some serious, thoughtful people who left atheism for theism. There are plenty who made the opposite trip (including some on this board) so I don't offer that as proof of the superiority of the theist position - far from it. But you asserted that the direction of travel was one-way and it clearly isn't.
The lists have been collated and the information provided - no need for you to do any work at all.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by starbelly:
I used that exact line in a stand up routine one, sad to know I am just not original in my comedy!
Well its even sadder for me to note that I got there after you.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... But if you are pretending that adamant atheists are less likely to become theists, you fail to understand human psychology.
I have a vague remembrance of someone, maybe Wesley or Fox, saying that the scoffers would be converted but not the lukewarm. Scientifically I'm sure you are right (for a popular science discussion see Kathryn Schultz "Being Wrong"). Most of us seem to like a leap from one certainty to another and you can go both ways.
What appeals is certainty: "Atheism is so clear and straightforward to me, especially in stark contrast to my faith in God as a child" as SusanDoris says. Some things are clear but untrue, others are fuzzy and puzzling but true. Mostly I'm in the fuzzy zone: an atheist but I don't find atheism any more convincing than theism. I just happen to believe the former and not the latter. I have a feeling I would be hard to convert - why give up one uncertainty for another?
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I got one name after 1 second on google and a second name in the next second.
Presumably these guys weren't true atheists otherwise they wouldn't have fallen away? Otherwise they would violate the once unsaved always unsaved rule?
Those are great articles. Especially about Flew, whom I was aware of in my Philosophy Major days. Thank you for posting those!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Thanks one and all for your comments.
I am reminded of the (apocryphal?) story of the journalist in Belfast during the Troubles who was shoved into the back of a car between two masked men. As the car sped away one of the men put a pistol to the journalists head and demanded to know if he was a Catholic or a Protestant. According to the story the journalist replied that he was an atheist.............................................. After a few minutes digesting this response the alleged comeback was “yeah, OK, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?”
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
...formal Christian Atheism is a theological framework ...
I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. Christianity, by definition, requires a belief in a God who exists. The concept of a theological framework requires a God to exist. However, atheism requires there to not be any God.
I don't see any way to wrap your head around that.
Technically atheism does not require that there not be any god(s); simply - atheism is the view that, due to our inability to discern either evidence or need for god(s), we are unable to believe in them. Most atheists will probably feel that the specific god(s) presented for their belief are rationally impossible – but that doesn’t exclude, for example, the existence of something with godlike powers which does not interact with our universe.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The truth of God clearly cannot be falsified by the question of suffering, as Christianity demonstrates. The resurrection of Christ illustrates the truth of God through suffering.
Surely this must depend upon your concept of “the truth of God”, your definition of “demonstrates” and your belief in the “resurrection of Christ”. Once one has sorted these problems to one’s satisfaction I suspect that belief becomes less of a problem.
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
after a long absence I venture back with a brief exception to the topic.
Having left the church I find myself in a sort of self-imposed limbo. I do not want to be called an atheist (Christian or otherwise) since it seems that a lot of atheists are really "anti-theists" and militantly opposed toward any church. I regard all religions as being primarily a means of establishing a moral code with appropriate rewards (Heaven, eternal life) and punishments (Hell). And there is an authority (God, Allah etc.) to prosecute or reward the adherents. When practiced with reasonability, I find religions to be acceptable to the general good.
I have chosen to call myself a humanist and have made a few ventures into the Humanist Association in my former home and expect to meet with the local branch soon to see if they meet my needs for sociability.
Have any shipmates had contact with these associations?
I am a member of the British Humanist Association – they have a website which was what led me to realise that I was one-of-them. HERE. I can’t help with humanism in the US – but I strongly suspect that you will find a conviction that a) moral codes are not religion dependant and that b) actions predicated on belief without evidence are, on balance, dangerous for individuals, the state and humanity. Thus, yes, many atheists are against organised religion on the grounds that it provides a baleful influence on the only life we know we have. Splitting hairs perhaps but we are not anti-god any more than we are anti tooth-fairy – it’s irrational to be anti something we don’t believe in. Perhaps it’s our equivalent of love the sinner hate the sin – but in our case it’s ignore the hypothesis but resist it’s effects.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The truth of God clearly cannot be falsified by the question of suffering, as Christianity demonstrates. The resurrection of Christ illustrates the truth of God through suffering.
Surely this must depend upon your concept of “the truth of God”, your definition of “demonstrates” and your belief in the “resurrection of Christ”. Once one has sorted these problems to one’s satisfaction I suspect that belief becomes less of a problem.
Without the resurrection, the cross would be the end of the story of Jesus. Without personal evidence of the living Christ, I would not be a Christian. If we follow Christ, in every aspect of his teaching, consciousness of and belief in God, and experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit may become evident too.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
^^ I used to read The Humanist magazine from the US, and The Humanist In Canada, at my local library. While much of it was what you would expect, they also had a strong tendency toward supporting population control, from the usual Malthusian angle, an agenda I am somewhat dubious about.
The Humanists in N. America seemed to have a bit of overlap with Unitarianism(again, going by their publications), but I haven't really noticed that since becoming re-involved with Unitarians a few years back. I'm actually not sure if I have ever met, in person, someone formally associated with Humanism.
[ 16. February 2016, 18:47: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Without the resurrection, the cross would be the end of the story of Jesus. Without personal evidence of the living Christ, I would not be a Christian. If we follow Christ, in every aspect of his teaching, consciousness of and belief in God, and experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit may become evident too.
I don’t doubt your sincerity – I do doubt the accuracy of your conviction. Personal evidence is a potentially dangerous justification – much harm has been done by people convinced that they were doing the personally revealed will of their deity/deities. It seems to me that a caring God would act differently and prevent such damage.
You imply that the God in which you believe may, or may not, become evident to someone who sincerely follows his teaching. Are you suggesting that your God refuses to allow genuine seekers to find him? What would such a refusal say about your God?
Without changing your meaning I could rewrite your post as
Without the story of the resurrection, the cross would be the end of the story of Jesus. Without the belief that I have personal evidence of the living Christ, I would not be a Christian. If we follow Christ, in every aspect of his teaching, we may become convinced that consciousness of and belief in God, and experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit may become evident too.
Are you OK with that, and if not, why not?
Stetson Unitarianism describes itself as an open-minded and welcoming approach to faith . The British Humanist Association describes Humanism as a Non-faith based worldview. Beyond the accommodation for faith there are a number of commonalities, but the faith thing seems, to me at least, to be a massive separator between the two.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
There are humanists as well as Christiana and pagans (also former members of a wide assortment of religions exploring their beliefs) in my local Unitarian Universalist church. Last week's service was relatively Christian (Amazing Grace was sung) though usually it tends to the more humanist side. I suspect some in the church might describe themselves as Christian atheists (one in particular who died a couple of years ago at 96 had been a Presbyterian minister and missionary before becoming a humanist but still had an interest in Jesus as a person).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Hugh wrote:
quote:
Stetson Unitarianism describes itself as an open-minded and welcoming approach to faith . The British Humanist Association describes Humanism as a Non-faith based worldview. Beyond the accommodation for faith there are a number of commonalities, but the faith thing seems, to me at least, to be a massive separator between the two.
Atheist and agnostic Unitarian Universalists
Those are N. American UUs. I believe the British Unitarians might generally be more theistic in their orientation. No time for googling now, I'll be back later.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(LOL, for a moment I wondered whether Stetson Unitarianism was a thing ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Hugh wrote:
quote:
Stetson Unitarianism describes itself as an open-minded and welcoming approach to faith . The British Humanist Association describes Humanism as a Non-faith based worldview. Beyond the accommodation for faith there are a number of commonalities, but the faith thing seems, to me at least, to be a massive separator between the two.
Atheist and agnostic Unitarian Universalists
Those are N. American UUs. I believe the British Unitarians might generally be more theistic in their orientation. No time for googling now, I'll be back later.
Humanist Unitarian Universalists
Haven't had time to read that. (Too busy with the Stetson variety!)
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
]Without the resurrection, the cross would be the end of the story of Jesus. Without personal evidence of the living Christ, I would not be a Christian. If we follow Christ, in every aspect of his teaching, consciousness of and belief in God, and experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit may become evident too.
That might be a fair description of your own profession, but does not mean that you have unique dibs on the term, nor that your beliefs can be used as a measure for everyone else who has ever used the title.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Without the resurrection, the cross would be the end of the story of Jesus. Without personal evidence of the living Christ, I would not be a Christian. If we follow Christ, in every aspect of his teaching, consciousness of and belief in God, and experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit may become evident too.
I don’t doubt your sincerity – I do doubt the accuracy of your conviction. Personal evidence is a potentially dangerous justification – much harm has been done by people convinced that they were doing the personally revealed will of their deity/deities. It seems to me that a caring God would act differently and prevent such damage.
You imply that the God in which you believe may, or may not, become evident to someone who sincerely follows his teaching. Are you suggesting that your God refuses to allow genuine seekers to find him? What would such a refusal say about your God?
Without changing your meaning I could rewrite your post as
Without the story of the resurrection, the cross would be the end of the story of Jesus. Without the belief that I have personal evidence of the living Christ, I would not be a Christian. If we follow Christ, in every aspect of his teaching, we may become convinced that consciousness of and belief in God, and experience of the indwelling Holy Spirit may become evident too.
Are you OK with that, and if not, why not?
It's true to say that some people cannot discern between imagination and reality, and it is of course dangerous if we don't use discernment and if we do harmful things thinking that they are good. This applies to everybody. It does not mean that there is no God, nor that people who believe are imagining that there is.
The caring God will not be manipulated by us. God is not a human puppet. The effort must be on our side to seek and to continue to seek for the next glimpse of God, to continue to invite him into our lives as he invites us into his. Our human frailties are fully understood by God, who may bless us with more knowledge of his presence the further we travel the road. I acknowledge that some say that they have not known this blessing, which is why I use 'may'. I don't know why that is the case, it has been discussed on other threads.
What we know, we are convinced of, we believe to be the truth. Your revision of the words I used may be the way you see it, but I stand by my original words.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
For the first time in ... forever the mystery of existence didn't demand God for me as I walked across the park to the car gone 7 tonight. As I told Him at the time.
There is just NO argument for God. No Presence. I asked Him how He perceives that which He sustains. I.e. infinite everything. What His Point of View is. The integral of the infinite points of view of all - infinite views - of and from all infinite points.
How intense He is, how present at each point.
It's infinitely, aleph aleph ... aleph simpler that He is not.
But He is.
The universe is ... ever so big - infinite - and complex. And just one infinitesimal perturbation. In an infinity.
And God is greater.
The ONLY and still sufficient external evidence to me being the Jesus story. In which we all have eternal life. As have the infinite denizens of eternity before us. In their infinite Jesus stories.
Frit the missus with that up the Tissington Trail Valentine's Day. I suggested a squid Jesus.
In trans-infinite/eternal, meta-infinite/eternal God.
And that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This morning I got "Yeah, I'm transcendent and then some. And immanent.".
Last night I hypnagogically envisaged myself as a point with a thread umbilically mapping to a me shaped hole, shadow on an infinite womb surface: MY God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
A few weeks back I watched a sketch featuring unborn twins in a womb, speculating on whether there was life after birth.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Is that different to the one about them debating that there's a Mother?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah, it's both: The conversation of a set of twins in the womb of their mother ...
“Say, do you actually believe in life after birth?” the one twin asks.
“Yes, definitely! Inside we grow and are prepared for what will come outside,” answered the other twin.
“I believe that’s nonsense!” says the first. “There can’t be life after birth—what is that supposed to look like?”
“I don’t exactly know either. But there will certainly be much more light than in here. And maybe we will be walking about and eat with our mouths?”
“I’ve never heard such nonsense! Eating with the mouth? What a crazy idea. There is the umbilical cord that nourishes us. And how do you want to walk about? The umbilical cord is much too short.”Unborn twins
“I am sure it is possible. It’s just that everything will be a little bit different.”
“You are crazy! Nobody ever came back after birth. Life is over with birth. That’s it.”
“I admit that nobody knows what life after birth will look like. But I do know that we will see our mother then, and that she will take care of us.”
“Mother???? But you don’t believe in a mother, do you? Where is she?”
“She is here, all around us. We are and we live within her and through her. Without her we couldn’t exist at all!”
“Nonsense! I’ve never sensed a mother, consequently she doesn’t exist.”
“Yes, sometimes, when we are very quiet you can hear her sing, or feel how she caresses our world.”
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My Muslim boss loved it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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