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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: March book group-The Dark is Rising.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Our book up for discussion in March is The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper.
A modern children's classic, this is the second book in her The Dark is Rising sequence of five.
Please post here if you'll be joining in. As usual, question around the 20th.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I'll be joining in. If I've read this it was so long ago that I can't remember anything about it.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I will join in! One of my childhood favourites which I have re-read occasionally - not for a few years though.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I will probably pop in. One of my favorite children's books. I can buy a copy on my Nook.
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Good choice! Looking forward to this one. I've started singing it already...
(The rhyme "When the Dark is rising", printed at the end of one of the books though I don't remember if it's this one, fits rather nicely to "Now the green blade riseth")
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
Interesting. I haven't read this one for decades. It might just be within my power to find a copy now.
Cattyish, off to the library shortly.
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Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've got it somewhere, so I'm in. The film was rubbish, and a waste of actors. Don't know where it was set, but it certainly wasn't where it should have been, and got the US and the UK thoroughly mixed.
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I love this book (and this series) too. I once spent a half term holiday in a cottage in Wales, where the only reading matter was theological, and partly in Welsh, a collection of quotations from Jane Austen with uncut pages, and my library book - The Dark is Rising. I read it nine times.
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
Not sure if I'll have the chance to read it, but if I can I'd like to join in.
I loved this series as a child; it influenced a later ill-fated attempt at learning welsh and a life-long weakness for Celtic myth.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I discovered the series at the age of 16, which was just on the verge of slightly too late to be 100% absorbed by it all, but loved the stories enough to buy and re-read them over the years.
Not sure which is my favourite, I like "The Grey King" but also "Silver on the Tree".
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I'm in if I can find it in the library. I read the series in my twenties so it will be interesting to re-read.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I read this ages ago and bought it on my Kindle when I was buying books for the Ship group (but I'm likely to be slow, I'm still reading the last one - nasty bout of 'flu for the last few weeks and temp contract that meant I had to keep working, so had no energy for anything else).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
I should have read this long ago, but I haven't. So I will take this opportunity to read it before my granddaughter does.
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Celtic Knotweed
Shipmate
# 13008
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Posted
Assuming that my sister remembers to bring my copy back at the weekend, I'm in! (If she forgets I'll have to try the library service...)
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
How are we doing? Would questions on Sunday be acceptable or shall I delay a bit?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Personally, I'd be happy with questions on Sunday, if you want to do that. People don't have to join in straightaway, and those who are at a bit of a loose end may welcome it.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I'm ready to go whenever.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
OK then, some questions for you. Feel free to answer them or not, or post your own.
1. If this is a re-reading for you, what memories do you have of your first reading and how was it different this time?
2. I see similarities between this and our recent read, The Box of Delights. If you've read both, compare and contrast.
3. Have you read the other books in the sequence and / or the film? Thoughts?
4. Taking place at Christmas, with key scenes occurring during carol singing and the Christmas Day carol service, Will says,"Any church of any religion is vulnerable to their [ancient pagan forces] attack, for places like this are where men give thought to matters of the Light and the Dark". Do you think this is so?
5. The edition I read has an interview with the author at the back and some Christmassy activities. Aimed at children, and a bit of fun, generally are these sort of appendixes a good thing? Are you ever tempted to do any of the projects?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I too was reminded of Box of Delights , in fact I wondered if that was in Copper's mind when she started the book, mysterious tramps, the cold winter weather, the 'dark is rising' instead of 'the wolves are running'. I thought it worked a lot better, it wasn't a dream for a start and it was properly grounded in a recognisable reality. There were some of the same motifs – Herne the Hunter for instance.
I've not read any of the other books, but probably will over the next few months. From all accounts the film is dire, so I think I'll give that a miss,
I thought the Christian bits fitted a bit uncomfortably with the pagan bits, though I was carried along by it all when I was reading it. I got a very strong sense of place, which reminded me a bit of Sylvia Warner's Lolly WIllows another book set in the Chilterns. There is always something of an echo of the past in areas like this that to all intents and purposes are now tamed. I used to live in the Norwood area of London, very built up now, but my husband and I always said that you could still feel the Great North Wood, after which the area was named, in the background somehow.
I quite looking at the activities, hints for book groups etc. that you find in the back of books, but can take them or leave them, and rarely if ever do the projects, though the questions are good as starters if I'm leading the book group and are stuck.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There still are bits of the wood about Norwood, and, of course, Penge still recalls the Celtic past, being derived from Pen Coed, the head of the wood.
I did read the whole sequence back when they were published, and must do it again.
I also noticed the parallel with the Box of Delights, but the dark is much darker, and much more powerful than Abner Brown. I remember being very much disturbed in my first reading by the irruption of the dark into the church.
My other bother with it was that if one is the Chosen One, one really has no choice about acting it out. It isn't the only book with this snag.(Joy Chant's "Red Moon and Black Mountain" comes to mind.)
And I can't get rid of Christopher Eccleston from my mind. (And what a name that is. Christbearer Church - either town or stone! Can't be dark, really, can he?)
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
I have such wonderful memories of all the books in the series that I really don't want to see the film, though I have seen stills of Christopher Eccleston looking evil!
I first came across the series by watching Jackanory, which was one of the best children's TV programmes ever! They did Over Sea, Under Stone, illustrated with still photos of the children in Cornwall - and I think it was one of the first times they'd used photos rather than illustrations to go with the narration.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
1. If this is a re-reading for you, what memories do you have of your first reading and how was it different this time?
It's much the same, although I'm looking at it from a more adult perspective now.
quote:
2. I see similarities between this and our recent read, The Box of Delights. If you've read both, compare and contrast.
I have to say the similarities elude me. This is a much more polished, articulate story that carries you along, where the characters are plausible and have depth. There's altogether less poetry but the book still manages to be magical.
quote:
3. Have you read the other books in the sequence and / or the film? Thoughts?
The film is quite awful and I'm not surprised the author wanted nothing to do with it. The books are great. I prefer the stories where Will is the leading character, though; the other ones seem a bit babyish by comparison, although having said that I do like Greenwitch.
quote:
4. Taking place at Christmas, with key scenes occurring during carol singing and the Christmas Day carol service, Will says,"Any church of any religion is vulnerable to their [ancient pagan forces] attack, for places like this are where men give thought to matters of the Light and the Dark". Do you think this is so?
No. I think they are places of sanctuary.
quote:
5. The edition I read has an interview with the author at the back and some Christmassy activities. Aimed at children, and a bit of fun, generally are these sort of appendixes a good thing? Are you ever tempted to do any of the projects?
I haven't seen that in the back of books but I really hate lists of suggested questions for book groups. They always feel like "you've read the book, now here's your homework." I'd rather a book was presented "as is", I want to enjoy it, draw my own conclusions, etc.
[ 21. March 2016, 20:23: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I first read this book as an adult, so my view of it hasn't changed significantly.
I have no intention of seeing the film but have read the other books. Over Sea Under Stone is the most accessible in terms of other children's books around at the time (Lone Pine series, Alan Garner, even Famous Five to some extent); I suspect she might have had problems finding a publisher if she'd begun with The Dark is Rising - much as I like it, it's not a conventional children's book and it's certainly dark.
Greenwich is ...ok. It didn't make much impression.
The Grey King is the best all round, with a good balance of believable characters, personal issues, and the magical aspects fit seamlessly into the action.
Silver on the Tree - less sure about this. I haven't read it for a long time but remember the magical aspects as bewildering at times. A few things jar; the introduction of environmentally destructive mink and casual racism as manifestations of the Dark is very worthy, but just feels like a box-ticking exercise to make the story relevant to modern youth and all that.
But this is just nitpicking. It's a great series and I may well reread them all this spring.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm currently tearing through the lot and part way through "Silver on the Tree". I know she hinted at a development at the end of "Over Sea, Under Stone" but the decade wait may mean that her ideas changed a bit between that and "The Dark is Rising".
I'm now wondering if Sebastian Bacziewicz, the writer of the "Pilgrim" series on Radio 4 was influenced in his youth by these books. There are places where it seems to intersect with Cooper's Britain, though it's more of a grey than light and dark world.
The shepherd Rowland, in "The Grey King" raises a query about the forces of the Light and their use of mere mortals in order to defeat the Dark, and Will recalls the end of Merriman's servant in "The Dark is Rising" with some doubt. And under Cader Idris, Merriman is throned with a representative of the Dark in administering the test in which Bran and Will get hold of the harp. There are strong questions about what is meant by Light and Dark - though the Dark seems to be evil, it is questionable whether the Light is good in the generally accepted sense. Rowland (itself a name associated with going up against darkness, in Burd Ellen's story) almost implies that in its use of others, in the end justifying the means, the Light is on the way to jihad, and not in what we are taught is the true meaning of that word.
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Martha
Shipmate
# 185
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Posted
One of my favourite books. I can't remember when I first read it, but I know the series has been on my bookshelf for a long time, and I regularly re-read it. I grew up not far from where The Dark is Rising is set, and love how the place is so exact - I could almost point out where the village should be on the local OS map.
The local folklore is real, too; I still occasionally come across a legend she has used. This very evening, quite randomly on my Twitter feed, I discovered that there actually is a Trefeddian Hotel in Aberdovey. Having persuaded my parents to visit North Wales, in my teens, on the basis of these books, I may have to pay it a visit!
[ 22. March 2016, 20:47: Message edited by: Martha ]
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I forgot to add that if I had read this book as a child, I would have absolutely hated the addition of Christmassy activities for a bit of fun at the end. Probably even more than I would now.
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
I read The Dark is Rising as a child and (as far as I can remember) loved the elements of history, mythology, mystery and magic and the idea of an ongoing struggle between Light and Dark taking place in our world. I still do!
Like Penny S, I have been inspired to read the other books. Before TDiR,I read Over Sea, Under Stone and I just finished Greenwitch. I like the way that the first two books focus on different characters, who come together in the third book.
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
4. Taking place at Christmas, with key scenes occurring during carol singing and the Christmas Day carol service, Will says,"Any church of any religion is vulnerable to their [ancient pagan forces] attack, for places like this are where men give thought to matters of the Light and the Dark". Do you think this is so?
Only in stories. In the real world, anyone who talked like that would sounds (to my ears) like the very nice Christian guy in high school who told me that playing Dungeons & Dragons would expose me to attack from evil pagan forces. "Why?" I asked. He explained "It teaches you magic, which exposes you to attack from demonic forces". "Really?" I asked, explaining how I used magic in D&D, like this:-
Me: I cast my Sleep spell.
Dungeon Master: Okay, roll the dice to see how many goblins fall asleep.
... which has left me instinctively sceptical when Christians talk about such things. I know that many Christians see this very differently, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
5. The edition I read has an interview with the author at the back and some Christmassy activities. Aimed at children, and a bit of fun, generally are these sort of appendixes a good thing? Are you ever tempted to do any of the projects?
For me, it depends on what is there. Like Ariel and Aravis, I probably wouldn't use questions, seeing them as homework. That doesn't mean that things at the back of a book are always bad - I enjoyed the interview at the back of Jim Butcher's first Harry Dresden book, Storm Front, and the 'making of' material at the back of Neil Gaiman's Marvel 1602.
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Having got to the end, I find the inability of the church to protect echoed in Merriman's dismissal of the Dark Age monks "praying to the sky". I don't like the dualist universe with no power above Ahriman and Mazda*. I suppose it does make the conflict more convincing, since if there is a God, then the good must win, but it has to, anyway, or no-one would want to read the book.
The church episode worried me on my first reading, though a more literary friend said I was missing something. I still don't know what. I'm still not happy.
By comparison, I wasn't in the least bothered by Pullman. Or Rowling, who omits any religious anything but a secular Christmas. And I have not been very drawn to obviously "Christian" fiction. In which I do not include Lewis, Tolkien or Williams. Or Macdonald.
*For want of a better analogy.
[ 23. March 2016, 14:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
I have no intention of seeing the film but have read the other books.
Don't bother seeing the film. Will and his family are Americans who have come to live in England. His brothers are horrible to him, his only support comes from his little (and only) sister Gwen. On his 14th birthday, which his family ignore because it's so close to Christmas, he discovers that it's his job to save the world. He fancies Maggie Barnes, there's no Lady or Walker, Mary is his mother and you wouldn't believe what a useless twerp Merriman is.
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Over at the Tor.com website, there's an entry about five books by British people about Time Travel which includes the Dark is Rising series. The author of the piece also shows amazement at the level of folklore and historical knowledge which is assumed in British children, as well as the sophisticated use of language, and considers the books to have been written for adults!
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
One thing that struck me when I read the book this time that I don't think I picked up on the first time (as a kid) was the way the Light seems to be uninvolved with regular humans. As far as can be told from this book, regular humans can be used as tools by the Old Ones, but have no chance of doing anything to help the Light on their own. In contrast, it seems that a regular human can rise to power in the Dark, at least I didn't get the feeling that Maggie was anything other than a regular human who turned to the Dark.
If I remember correctly (it's been a long time since I read them) this may change a bit in the other books.
[ 23. March 2016, 22:52: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
But see John Rowlands in the last book. Though the Old Ones can't resist tweaking him.
[ 24. March 2016, 11:27: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tree Bee:
Answering my own questions:
1. If this is a re-reading for you, what memories do you have of your first reading and how was it different this time?
As mentioned previously, I first read The Dark is Rising in about 1977 when I was working on a Schools Library Service mobile van in Buckinghamshire. I have a clear memory of sitting in the van, in Amersham I think, or maybe Chesham, and it may have been snowing, or that could have come from the book. Anyway, I felt part of the action in such a vivid way. So as I now live in north Bucks and have retired this reading was quite different but it was so good to revisit it.
2. I see similarities between this and our recent read, The Box of Delights. If you've read both, compare and contrast.
I was so disappointed in the Box of Delights. TDIR won on each point here. Mainly, the intense cold and deep snow was palpable. The anticipation and magic of Christmas came across, mainly because of Will's large and loving family. In the Box of Delights missing children weren't noted or cared about.
I really felt the danger that Will was in, and his courage in fighting the Dark.
3. Have you read the other books in the sequence and / or the film? Thoughts?
I read Over Sea Under Stone to my girls maybe 30 years ago so I've just re read it and loved it,especially the Cornish setting, and the summer weather was as much a character as the cold was in TDIR.
Haven't seen the film and I see it's not recommended.
4. Taking place at Christmas, with key scenes occurring during carol singing and the Christmas Day carol service, Will says,"Any church of any religion is vulnerable to their [ancient pagan forces] attack, for places like this are where men give thought to matters of the Light and the Dark". Do you think this is so?
It suits the plot to be so, but in real life, I'm not so sure. I think there are 'thin places' which are more spiritual than others. Whether you are more susceptible to attack there or not, I don't know.
5. The edition I read has an interview with the author at the back and some Christmassy activities. Aimed at children, and a bit of fun, generally are these sort of appendixes a good thing? Are you ever tempted to do any of the projects?
I've never found these activities appealing and wondered if I was odd. I quite enjoy author interviews though. It's good to discover how their minds work.
Sorry, didn't mean this to be all in bold!
[ 26. March 2016, 20:31: Message edited by: Tree Bee ]
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I like the way the Light is portrayed as sometimes cold and ruthless, while the Dark appeals more to people on a personal level. It's a sophisticated depiction as a change from the usual dualism.
What occurred to me initially on my first reading of the book years ago is that Will is very lucky that all the Signs are so local to his home, if not quite within walking distance, instead of being dispersed across the world as one might expect. He's also described as being the last of the Old Ones, which given that there are centuries to go yet always seemed a bit final.
There's a bit of a red herring, or potential plot development that never got off the ground, when Merriman is looking at Will's mother's ring and comments on the odd runic lines around the edges that he must look at more closely at some point. Material for a spin-off at some point, perhaps?
There are hints, some broader than others, in the series, that Merriman is actually Merlin. That always seems a bit contrived to me, and pegs him firmly to the later Romano-British era and not before, but I doubt that the author ever got as far as thinking that through in detail. Still a good story that carries you along, though.
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Alwyn
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# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I like the way the Light is portrayed as sometimes cold and ruthless, while the Dark appeals more to people on a personal level. It's a sophisticated depiction as a change from the usual dualism.
Me too!
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
What occurred to me initially on my first reading of the book years ago is that Will is very lucky that all the Signs are so local to his home, if not quite within walking distance, instead of being dispersed across the world as one might expect. He's also described as being the last of the Old Ones, which given that there are centuries to go yet always seemed a bit final.
I agree on both points. For me, Will's quest for the Signs could have been more active. It seemed as if he was swept along by events and just needed to spot each Sign as he was swept into its location. The plot seems like a bit like a 'railroad'; Will is occasionally tempted by the Dark (which, if he had succumbed to temptation, would have taken him down a different track) but which otherwise takes him where he needs to go. I wonder if others felt the same way about the 'railroading'.
I also thought it was strange for Will to be the last Old One. (I didn't notice the undeveloped detail about the ring which you mentioned). I agree about Merriman/Merlin; it seems that the author was fascinated by the late Romano-British era - and tales of King Arthur - and expects her readers to be, too. To be fair to Susan Cooper, I enjoyed the connections between the present-day story and the earlier times in history, including the late Romano-British period.
[ 30. March 2016, 08:27: Message edited by: Alwyn ]
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
According to the Radio Times for next week, there is some good news. There is to be a TV series based on the books. The bad news is that it will be done by Sky, so those of us not keen to add to the empire of the Dark that is Murdoch will be unable to see it.
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Nicolemr
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# 28
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Posted
The spell on the ring was not left undeveloped. It was the spell used by the Dark to enchant Mary.
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Martha
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# 185
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Posted
The Merlin thing is developed more in the later books, when the Pendragon (Arthur's son) also appears.
I'd never really noticed about all the signs being in Will's locality; I guess as an 11-year-old he would have trouble travelling the world (except by moving out of time, and Susan Cooper doesn't really use that as a way to travel, more a way of being able to perform an extended activity in a particular place).
I think the point of Will's being the last Old One is that this is the time when all the Things of Power are collected and used for the final battle against the Dark. It doesn't necessarily signify the end of time.
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
If I remember correctly, she had already established the Merriman=Merlin link in Over sea and under stone, which was more explicitly based on the grail legend...
I have no idea how much of the cosmology of The dark is rising had been envisaged at that point...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Marama
Shipmate
# 330
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Posted
Sorry I'm a bit late in this one:
1 I'm too old to have read this as a teenager - which is a shame as I think I would have enjoyed it then. Reading it as a mature adult I found it engrossing, and mostly forgot it was a young adult book. I gather the film is awful, so no desire to see it.
2. I didn't read 'Box of Delights' so can't comment on comparisons. But I did find myself think of the 'Lord of the Rings' - there are differences, but there are also, it seems to me, some parallels. LOTR was fairly new in 1973 - I wonder how much Cooper was influenced by it.
3. The link with Christianity is interesting, and overt. Of course many old churches in England are on old pagan sacred sites- is this relevant to the relationship between the church and the Darkness. I found the ambiguity interesting.
4. Not much interested in 'reading guides' - and I don't think I would have been any keener as a teenager.
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Attention may already have waned and turned to the next book on the list, but...
Did anyone not like the book?
Anyone think it weak?
Characters you disliked?
(Just curious, it seems to be a favourite of a lot of people.)
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
I just crafted a careful post and the ipad ate it. However, trying again:
Very late to this one. I borrowed an audio version from the library and it worked well in this format; I enjoyed having it read to me. That said, I found myself a more passive listener than I would be a reader, so I did not feel the railroading that Alwyn mentioned. I did enjoy the book, so am not going to provide a contrary view, in response to Ariel. The only part which jarred, was the scene in the church. I understand why the Vicar could not act, but my willing suspension of disbelief struggled; I wanted him to be able to. In the context of the story, the vulnerability of places of worship to attack makes sense. In reality, I see them as potential 'thin places' and closer to heaven etc.
I have not read the related books, or The box of delights, so no comments there.
There were no interviews or acivities in the audio book. I recently read a book with questions for book groups in an appendix and, thinking of Tree Bee's question, I read them with interest, but found them bland. If I had read this book with or to my children when younger, I migrht have been tempted to try any activities.
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
Posts: 383 | From: On dry land | Registered: Feb 2006
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