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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: July Book Group: Memory, by Lois Mc Master Bujold
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is it July already? Then it's time to start thinking about the July book, We selected Memory, a science fiction novel by Lois McMaster Bujold.
It should be easy to get a copy. Over on Ebay you can get a mass market paperback for 99 cents. It was a major award winner, and published in all formats world wide, so scope out your local public library or your nearby used book store. You can also buy the ebook edition over at the publisher, at
Baen Books' web site.
It is a notably fast read -- all the Vorkosigan novels are like falling down a well, not a dull page in them. So let's begin, and I'll poke around and find fun web sites and things to help tis thread stay afloat.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I'm in! I bought the whole series after you recommended it and went on to buy everything she ever wrote. Just got 'Penric and the Shaman', but saving it until I've reread the rest of the Chalion series (just because).
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I'm in too - just bought it for my Kindle and wil start reading when I've finished the detective novel I'm currently ploughing through (I'm finding it a bit dull).
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is a famously common reaction; Bujold's books partake of the nature of methamphetamine. Think of me as Walter White, standing in the Arizona desert and pressing upon you a free sample. Just one, pal, see if you like it...
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Always Bujold. Have to find my copy, somewhere in the apartment after my move, and reread it.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Definitely crack--I started reading her stuff about 5 months ago, and have gone through everything once and parts of the Vorkosigan series up to 7 rereads. Beware.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Celtic Knotweed
Shipmate
# 13008
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Posted
I'm in. Will be delaying the re-reading of book until after a job interview on Thurs, as I need to be thinking/talking about that rather than mercs or nobility!
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My little sister is riding 100k round London at night to raise money for cancer research donations here if you feel so inclined.
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
I'll look around for a copy and see if I can join you.
I've not read any of the Vorkosigan series, but I liked Chalion a lot. I've avoided this series because I have a wariness about long serials and rat-holes. If I disappear after falling down this one, it's all Brenda's fault.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It's utterly addictive, the crack cocaine of the genre. I have warned people to pace themselves. Do not devour all 14 volumes (or whatever it is up to) in one week, or one month. Pace yourself, rationing the books to one a month so as to spin the experience out. Because once they're all devoured, you have nowhere to go. You'll be sitting on the sidelines with the rest of us, grumbling about why Bujold is not writing faster, and whether there is some way to render her immortal.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Found it. About to start rereading.
Memory is one of my favorites of the series, I've read it quite a few times already.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Landlubber
Shipmate
# 11055
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Posted
I have bought a copy, but now I'm afraid to open it ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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They that go down to the sea in ships … reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Been a fan for well over 20 years. The only caveat on Memory might be whether Mirror Dance should be read first.
As for Memory, look out for elephants. I feel Memory is where Miles learns that an earlier statement of his: "I've got forward momentum. There's no virtue in it. It's just a balancing act. I don't dare stop." Which worked for several books (and years) won't always work.
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spinner of webs
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Mirror Dance is a tough read, and not the one I'd begin on. One reason why it is OK to not begin at the beginning, is that Bujold is very very good indeed about making the series friendly to new readers. Begin anywhere, any volume, and you should be OK. She has gone so far as to find people who have never read any of the series, to read the current manuscript, and see if there is anything they don't understand.
The other reason Memory is a good one for us is, it's the hinge work. Because the books evolve as the series go on; they are not just slices cut off the same bold of cloth. The characters evolve and grow. The volumes that precede Memory are closer to space opera. As the quotation above indicates, Miles moves fast. He does so in this book too, and if you like that, you go back to the earlier volumes and are delighted.
But it's also the work where Miles his the wall and bounces. He has changed; things have changed, and the old answers no longer compute. So he learns, and changes, and the following books carry that on, so if you like this direction you go forward and have a grand time.
FWIW the first book in the series that I read was A Civil Campaign. Not the ideal one to begin on, you say, and I agree. Didn't make a particle of difference. (It happened to be in the library on the day I was there.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
My first was the Vor Game. Her newer books do tend to cause one to reevaluate stuff in earlier books and to appreciate them more (though the earlier books are rougher). Learning about how some people perceive Ivan in Captain Vorpatril's Alliance made me wonder what exactly he went through in the Vor Game and if he knew one of his worst fears was likely to become true.
I agree that Memory is a hinge book and it will be interesting to see virgin Bujold readers experience of it. Beside Miles it also deepens what we know of Simon, Gregor, Alys, and Ivan.
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spinner of webs
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
All right, here's a fun link. The award-winning fantasy writer Jo Walton has blogged for years over on her publisher's web site. She's a Miles fan and has blogged about all the books in the series. Here is the one about Memory. Note that she thinks that Memory is the worst volume to begin on! You can click around and find all her other posts on the subject, there are lots.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I think the worst one to begin on would be the newest one, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen. I though Memory would be a bad one to begin on until I reread it thinking of it in that way, and changed my mind.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I did not like Jole nearly so well as the others. Nor is Vorpatril a favorite. A worrying trend.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
But how did you feel about Penric?
I think she may be tired of the Nexus though she won't do as Doyle did and kill off the main character (or maybe she will, the worst thing I can imagine for Aral Alexander is for his father to die while he is still a minor or young adult and having to live up to the reputations of his great grandfather, his grandfather (and grandmother), and his father). She might want to rest for a while and just write the occasional novella.
I liked Vorpatril though it is not as good as her top ones but then I have this vision of Ivan being a character who has evaded the author for some 20+ years (an author who has said she likes doing the worst thing possible to her main character) in his characteristic merging to the background. Finally in Vorpatril she drops him into a marriage that he has been avoiding for some 10+ years in book time and only half-heartedly been serious about for a few more.
But back to Memory where the main character is Miles, who is driven to not be in the background or in fact anywhere except as leader (Gregor and his parents excepted). This is a drive that leads him not to reveal his seizures (except to a doctor he trusts and who he hopes can find a cure) since it would mean removal from the field at least temporarily (and therefore removal as an admiral of a mercenary fleet). He doesn't even reveal it to his lover, Elli, or to his second-in-command, Baz, or to Elena and the latter two are oathbound to him which should mean they won't go to ImpSec (though, I suppose, Elena might tell Miles' mother or possibly Mark [depending on how oaths work]).
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spinner of webs
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In the latter books I see a distressing impulse to lay everybody neatly back into the box, the 'happily ever after' syndrome. There is a reluctance to totally overset the status quo, which she was quite free from earlier in the series. I miss that wild liberty.
Penric was okay, but frankly there needs to be tons more of it to see if it is worth while. I still maintain that Curse of Chalion is her best fantasy.
However! As to Miles. He is fascinating, one of those ongoing characters who truly grows and develops over time. There are masses of characters in series (all superheroes, all TV and movie characters, for instance) who cannot -- are not allowed to -- change in any way. You got a winning formula with a rich guy dressing like a bat, why change it? He makes mistakes, colossal ones, and very nearly always pulls it out of the hole. It's thrilling to watch Miles gun the engine and try to jump over the Grand Canyon.
And he was one of the first really physically-disabled characters in the genre. Bujold cunningly allowed him to gradually recover from his disabilities (hi-tech SF cures), and then neatly socked him with a different but equally disabling issue.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
So what do the new readers think of Miles? Did Simon and Gregor let him off easy given what he did?
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spinner of webs
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I wouldn't call it easy at all. His ImpSec position (and the way it makes possible the Naismith role) is basically the center of his life, at least consciously. In this book he begins to find that he actually has something more to him than the little Admiral role--but it takes the whole book for him to figure that out fully. So he starts off suicidal, which is logical, as what he considers his very self has been destroyed.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And it is visible in this book, but if you have read the earlier ones it is even more notable, how core the being able to serve the Imperium is, not only to Miles's nature but to the entire self-image of the Barrayaran male.
All the guys want to be in the armed forces; if you can't then you're automatically less -- less desirable to chicks, less cool, less of a man. Unless you can get into ImpSec, which allows you to weasel out of the physical fitness requirements of being a soldier and is nearly as cool. And now Miles has lost that too. He has lost all the affirmation of his culture that he worked so hard to earn.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
I wouldn't quite say all Barrayar men though the exceptions are pretty rare. Imperial Auditor Vorthys doesn't seem very military oriented (though we don't really meet him until Komarr).
If Elena and Baz had decided to stay with the fleet would Miles had decided otherwise perhaps by talking to Elena or would he have ignored her advice as much as he did Elli's? Elena was more likely to have known how to appeal to his Barrayaran sense of duty.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
(small fangirl post)
Although Miles is the hero of this series, and it is clear that Aral is the character that powers the story in the author's creative processes, the person I most admire is Gregor. He's the one under the harrow, stuck by every tooth of Barrayar. This book is particularly fine for Gregor fans, because in this one the sad Emperor finally gets through to some of the good things in life. The pony. The cream cakes. OMG.
And, are there recipes? Yes there are! The books are far-famed for their food, and energetic fans have stepped into the breach.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Newtburgers? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Bug butter
...although I'd hire Ma Kosti as a cook too, if I got the chance. Better than Andre Norton's e-rations.
I like the way Ivan's character develops in this book - the whole subplot about the Vorrutyer succession is great comedy (the scene at the shuttleport is priceless) but also manages to slide a(nother) serious issue in without either derailing the whole book or making the characters less believable.
Yes, the whole book's about identity, but not just about Miles's identity.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In every SF novel (and to some extent fantasy) there is a Thing, a concept, that is the main wow factor. In Star Trek it was the 'going where no man has gone before' thing -- an endless menu of new worlds to briefly dip into, like a tapas restaurant.
In LOTR it is, not the Ring as a power object per se -- if that were all it would simply be a MacGuffin. It is the Ring's corrupting power, that you use it and are damned. But you have to use it, oh yes my precious.
So! in the Vorkosigan series the wow is all in biotech. Barrayar suffers a social revolution when gene modification arrives -- the Vorrutyer thing is just perfect. Each book pokes a stick into a different aspect of this central issue, teasing out new implications.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I think one of the other things that struck me about the Vorkosigan series is... the arts. So many SF writers describe their technologies in loving detail and ignore art, literature, music... dance... Bujold's cultures are more well-rounded.
I'd have said children was the theme running through the whole series. So many of the plots turn on rescuing children, or wanting to have children, and how biotech is used (and abused) in pursuit of this goal.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Celtic Knotweed
Shipmate
# 13008
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Posted
One other theme that seems to be running through the series is self-knowledge, starting with Cordelia and Aral in Shards of Honour, and going on from there.
Personally I've been interested to see more of Ivan's thinking in Civil Campaign and then in Vorpatril - I did wonder if he was ever going to grow up! I haven't read more than the taster chapters on Baen for Jole yet, as I have no shelf space for hardbacks, and given the dollar:pound exchange rate and local government budgets the library might not be getting it for a little while ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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My little sister is riding 100k round London at night to raise money for cancer research donations here if you feel so inclined.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I don't suppose you do ebooks -- Baen is very good with them. One of my great triumphs was buying the first edition hardback of CRYOBURN -- this was the one with the disc in the back, that had all the Vorkosigan novels on it!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Celtic Knotweed
Shipmate
# 13008
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Posted
Oh, I do do e-books, but I still haven't sorted out a tablet or e-reader. My 30 min lunch break today is split between the Ship and A Liaden Constellation volume 3 on Baen ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) . The Oxon library copy of Cryoburn still had the CD in when I borrowed it, so I copied it (permission is given on CD to copy for personal use only ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
I just prefer hardcopy, especially when I have all the others that way. (Plus it's easier on my eyes and means I can read in bed and in the bath).
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My little sister is riding 100k round London at night to raise money for cancer research donations here if you feel so inclined.
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I like the way Ivan's character develops in this book - the whole subplot about the Vorrutyer succession is great comedy (the scene at the shuttleport is priceless) but also manages to slide a(nother) serious issue in without either derailing the whole book or making the characters less believable.
Totally agree. Ivan is one of my favourite characters and the Vorrutyer plot is so perfect in the way it mucks around with the patriarchy.
Btw it may be confusing that there are two of us with an orange as our icon picture posting on this thread. Not sure what I can do about that except apologise. I really like that orange...
[ 12. July 2016, 12:03: Message edited by: Helen-Eva ]
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have never been able to figure out how to make SoF do an icon, so I gave up.
I forget whether it's this book or the next, that Ivan and his mom go to the place where his father died. But all of Miles's family, out to the uttermost cousins, have had hugely tragic blows to them over the years. The slow revelation that Ivan's facade is protective coloration is really great.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
Btw it may be confusing that there are two of us with an orange as our icon picture posting on this thread. Not sure what I can do about that except apologise. I really like that orange...
And we both like Ivan.
Given this is the ship we could talk about religion in the Nexus. It doesn't show up much in the books though Cordelia is a theist of some sort. Barrayar doesn't seem to have any priests. Miles does have to redefine himself in this book, almost a religious experience (wrestling with temptation), so perhaps the religion is deeper down (life stance as Norway might categorize it).
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spinner of webs
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I have never been able to figure out how to make SoF do an icon, so I gave up.
I forget whether it's this book or the next, that Ivan and his mom go to the place where his father died. But all of Miles's family, out to the uttermost cousins, have had hugely tragic blows to them over the years. The slow revelation that Ivan's facade is protective coloration is really great.
Vorpatril's Alliance where Alys hands the annual ritual over to Ivan (and Tej). Mirror Dance has Ivan take Mark to the location. It must make a deep impression on Ivan that every single one of his birthdays (unless he is off-planet and possibly while he was in military school [and even then Alys may have gotten him to attend, it helps being the Emperor's official hostess]) starts with a dawn ritual remembering the murder of the father he never knew.
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spinner of webs
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
So what do the new readers think of Miles? Did Simon and Gregor let him off easy given what he did?
Sorry, late to this discussion. As I recall, Simon roasts Miles as only Simon can, at a temperature of about 200 degrees below - and then essentially says that Miles has been let off easy, giving him the option of a medical discharge rather than being sacked, in consideration of all his previous service. Simon's (and Gregor's) definition of "easy" does not match that of lesser mortals.
Simon getting arsy is always a pleasure to behold, from a distance.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Oh, and here's another thrilling side issue: the role of women. Bujold embodies this beautifully in the role and development of the Koudelka sisters, Delia, Olivia, Martya and Kareen. I love them all. Their mom was a pioneer and the daughters are especially fun as they spread out and do different things. And it is amusing to see them from Miles's point of view: they are playmates, possible love objects, but never really quite right.
Here's a good sisters question: Who are they named after? Delia is clearly named after Cordelia, Kareen after the late Princess, and Olivia seems to be a high-class girl name (Aral's mother was Olivia Vorbarra). But who is/was Martya?
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I have never been able to figure out how to make SoF do an icon, so I gave up.
OK. This is tangential to this thread so let's try to avoid a discussion about it here. But go into your own profile and scroll down to where it says, in red, "Select a different avatar". Click on that to get a few pages of pre-set ones. If you want something different, contact an admin who for a small fee will set one up for you.
And now, back to the discussion of "Memory".
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Does anybody have a clue why ImpSec uses silver Horus eyes? It seems an odd choice when most everything else is Russian-influenced (or Greek, or Spanish...)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Martya and Olivia might be the names of relatives of Drou or Kou.
On Imperial Security, did they exist before recontact? I'm inclined to think later since earlier the emperor probably used his armsmen (perhaps then making a distinction between the armsmen he was due as a count [and limiting those to 20] and ImpSec which is loyal to him as emperor [and could be as large as he wanted]). The Horus eyes might be something picked up elsewhere from the Nexus (perhaps Negri chose them as he certainly made his mark on ImpSec). Or maybe they were on some stray prints that weren't lost during the time of isolation.
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spinner of webs
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is also significant that Drou and Kou were of the first generation who could select the genders of their offspring. And they quadrupled down on girls, very smart. Because everyone else on Barrayar was going crazy for boys. Giving the girls high-class names also was smart, to encourage marrying up.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It being about mid-month, perhaps most of us have finished reading the book and are ready to discuss?
In the meantime, here's the Vorkosigan wiki, which should answer -any- questions you might have about who and what!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It being about mid-month, perhaps most of us have finished reading the book and are ready to discuss?
In the meantime, here's the Vorkosigan wiki, which should answer -any- questions you might have about who and what!
We learned in Mirror Dance that there is a list of people who have Gregor's as close to direct as possible line (Mark is given it and Ivan comments that that list is very short). We see Miles use it in Memory. We know Ivan has it. Who else has it? Aral and Cordelia certainly. Henri Vorvolk also (Gregor's close friend from school). Alys? Drou?
What was your favorite scene in the book? I'm not sure I can make up my mind. Alys demanding from Miles what is happening with Simon. Miles and Simon on the lake. Ivan giving Miles an ice bath.
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spinner of webs
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I'm still reading. According to my kindle I'm about 65% through Memory.. As a complete beginner to the books I'm really enjoying it so far. I told my husband about it and he is starting at the beginning of the series. Not sure if that is the best part to start or not.
Anyway I'm happy if people want to start talking about the book. I'll join in when I've finished.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is he beginning with the first book about Cordelia, or Warrior's Apprentice, the first book about Miles? I confess to a powerful weakness for the first two books about Cordelia, which were collected under the overarching title Shards of Honor.
My favorite bit of Memory is the ending. Those who are just arriving there, I won't spoil it for you. But as you read, observe how it doesn't end abruptly, all problems solved, ring into volcano, boom. There's a steady deceleration of problems to face and be solved. =Very= neatly done, by a master hand.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Actually the first book is Shards of Honor, which together with Barrayar (the sequel) is called Cordelia's Honor (overarching title for the pair).
I adore Barrayar, especially her shopping trip to the capital, where she comes back with a nevermind in a shopping bag. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Yes, that's one of the best bits in the series.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And it has the most delicious repercussions on down through the series, too. In the next book, Komarr, someone suggests that they go shopping, and Miles replies that that isn't an invitation that a son of his mother often gets.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
And there's a reference to it in Diplomatic Immunity too.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Well too much indulgence in wine on Saturday meant I didn't fancy doing anything much more than lying in bed finishing Memory yesterday morning. So I'm now up to discussing it. I've certainly enjoyed it enough to download the next in the series for my holiday next week.
The book my husband is reading is Falling Free which seems to be a bit apart from some of the other books in the series.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Well here's a Q. Let's think about parents. One of the things this series is about is the influence that parents have on people.
Should Cordelia and Aral have tried to influence Miles more firmly? What about Mark? And Cordelia and Aral have their followers; it is clear for instance that Kou and Drou are raising their kids along more modern lines.
It is significant that Miles finally moves into old Piotr's fancy suite.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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