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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A mentally healthier congregation
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
My concern in this thread is more that in discussing medical diagnoses in the abstract, people are using the phraseology "suffering."
I was diagnosed with the forerunner of ADHD under the DSM- II, Boogie. I, too, have had to develop coping strategies over the years.
To put this back in the original context, I think most congregations and religious leaders are not well positioned to provide positive mental health care support.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
An Autie could be said to be "face blind"- unable to read social signals and non verbal communication.
It would be wiser not to use this term (faceblind) for autism or other communication issues. I am largely faceblind in the proper sense, where I simply do not register or remember faces (let alone being able to use them to identify people!) and I'm the opposite of autistic, if such a thing exists. I'm overly sensitive to social cues and nonverbals.
Actually I use the term advisedly because I know people who's place on the spectrum was diagnosed exactly because of this. Some of the test for autism require the identification of emotions from pictures of eyes and can be impossible. Faces contain so much information they can overwhelm the autistic system so it shuts down. Hence the avoidance of eye contact. And identifying people, particularly out of a usual context, can be difficult.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) Look, if you mean "inability to identify emotion" or "trouble coping with information overload," say so. Find a new term that is more accurate. Leave face blindness for what it says on the tin--blindness to faces. Not a stand-in for a different primary issue.
I identify emotions with no problem at all. I do not have information overload problems either. What I DO have is a visual processing disorder which makes it damn near impossible for me to see and retain a face in memory, working or long term, even for a second or two. They basically aren't there for me in the way that hands, hair, backs, eyeglasses are. In my memory every single face is blurred out, as if someone had photoshopped a blur over it. Including my own. The area of the brain that is dedicated to faces (yes, there is such an area) is kaput. If I want to identify someone, I do it by voice, movement, hair, back, butt... Or I store a description in verbal memory and hope I describe the person (internally) well enough that I don't make embarrassing mistakes the next time I meet him/her.
And I don't mind calling this a disorder, or a disability, or whatever the hell it is. It certainly complicates my life, and I'd give a great deal to be free of it. (You realize even my mental image of Christ is faceless? I "see" him basically from the chest down.)
Look, if you co-opt the term "face blindness" to mean "I can actually see the face just fine, but it overwhelms me, or I can't read its emotions correctly"--then what the hell am I to call my visual problems? Seriously, it's a problem for me. Because I already spend way too much time explaining to well-meaning people that yes, I have a disability, and please, don't blame me when I totally ignore you in the elevator because I don't recognize you, and NO, face-blindness does NOT mean I'm bad with names, it means I really freaking can't see your face and visually retain it for any length of time whatsoever.
Sorry for the rant. This is screwing up large segments of my life (like work, church, social life) and I really don't want one more misunderstanding barrier to clamber over.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I find it interesting that "suffers" and "suffering" have been used in relation to people with diagnoses (...)
I have much lived experience with the autism spectrum including working with university students on the spectrum. I have never had one of them describe themselves as "suffering" from their diagnosis.
For my part, the only place where I have used the term here is to describe those with "disorders" who are claimed by some to be a distinct category apart from those on the autism spectrum, so I'm not sure just how you find my use of the term "interesting" in view of your experience with autism.
quote:
To put this back in the original context, I think most congregations and religious leaders are not well positioned to provide positive mental health care support.
To be sure, terminology is loaded and may be used hamfistedly or approximately. I don't think that capability of providing positive mental health care support is entirely dependent on having a good grasp of "approved" terminology, though, not least because there is no consensus on what is "approved".
This whole tangent began because I invoked the DSM in support of describing ASD as a disorder (surely "approved" terminology in some meaningful sense?), and was promptly challenged.
[ 05. August 2016, 15:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IMHO the DSM exists for the purpose of identifying "thingamajigs" and not for the purpose of stigmatizing, devaluing, or causing grief to anyone. It's simply necessary in many settings to have a short way of referring to a doohickey without having to describe it at length every freaking time. The DSM allows shrinks and others to identify and communicate about the whatchamacallits they come into contact with on a regular basis, given the line of work they're in. The fact that something occurs in the DSM simply means that the compilers consider it likely that the users thereof will see and have a need to identify certain whatsits on a regular basis.
If you need the analogy, pregnancy is not a disorder or disease either, but one would certainly hope that physicians' manuals would have a section devoted to it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Indeed LC. The DSM disorder list comes with 5 digit codes in the form xxx.xx. A code has to be entered into a form or computer for the fee-for-service to be paid for the treatment of the disorder. This also allows gov't or insurance companies to see that drug X (identified by a DIN or drug identification number) has been given for whatever DSM code.
For therapy or counselling, there's usually procedure code which specify what sort of treatment (if not drug) was given. This is supposed to allow statistical records and Wise Decisions to be made about what to fund. Which is usually drugs it seems. Public mental health services waits are currently 7 months in my locale. Plus usually travel is required unless you live close to one of the 5 locations where services are provided.
Where we live, we see that clergy who have done CPE units (clinical pastoral education) and interned in hospital or health chaplaincy) may well be the only service availably in many rural areas (we're 2½ times larger than the UK with 1/60th of the population). And if not the only, better than what else there is. There may be a nurse practitioner showing up weekly for a day or 2 and doctor every 2 or 3 weeks. The clergy have much more experience and training than many "counsellors" who are totally unregulated. Anyone can claim to be one. They have also downgraded educational requirements to be called a psychologist to 2 years of a Master's degree, the vast majority who are school/educational trained, and practice counselling beyond their competence in our experience. So I prefer the clergy.
[ 05. August 2016, 16:55: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Autism is so individual it has its own Act of Parliament in the UK. Legislation at least recognises it as a special case.
In what way "special"?
The Act sets out to improve quote:
the provision of relevant services to such adults by local authorities, NHS bodies and NHS foundation trusts.
In other words, it is seeking to extend services, notably health services, to cover autism and have it more widely recognised as a disability, not to create anything "individual" because autism is "special". The spectrum is wide because the diagnostic tool is relatively recent.
Thanks. Disability but not a mental illness. That is the only point I've been trying to make. And it is not different in that respect. Just keep the two apart.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You talk as if autistic people don't form part of the church themselves, and cannot themselves contribute to providing genuine fellowship. Why is that?
We have more than our fair share of autism in our family. I get to see it first hand. The kids who don't get invited to parties, ever. Unintentional exclusion because fellowship time is so damned inaccessible. The lack of opportunity to use their gifts.
Of course 'they' can contribute to fellowship. If only there was a bit more awareness.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What is it that you think is so qualitatively different from a mental illness, why is making this distinction so crucially important to you ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Autism is not to do with the chemistry
Not everyone agrees.
Oh God no. Autism speaks. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Autism Speaks has a turbulent relationship with the autism community. In short it is because don't even have people with autism in the organisation and this leads to the belief they don't really speak for autism or work forthe autism community. It sometimes seems like AS are looking for the magic potion that will remove Autism from the world.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
What is it that you think is so qualitatively different from a mental illness, why is making this distinction so crucially important to you ?
People who are autistic are not sick. (Unless they have a mental illness like depression for instance).
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
It sometimes seems like AS are looking for the magic potion that will remove Autism from the world.
I see. That in and of itself doesn't invalidate the findings of the study that suggest that contrary to what was asserted above, there might be a link between autism and brain chemistry, though, does it?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
@ Lambchopped
Nothing should invalidate your experience or condition in anyway. It's horrible and must make life hell at times.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
We have more than our fair share of autism in our family. I get to see it first hand. The kids who don't get invited to parties, ever. Unintentional exclusion because fellowship time is so damned inaccessible.
How could fellowship time be made more accessible to people with autism?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
What is it that you think is so qualitatively different from a mental illness, why is making this distinction so crucially important to you ?
People who are autistic are not sick. (Unless they have a mental illness like depression for instance).
People with schizophrenia usually first experience symptoms in late teens / early twenties - they will then usually live with that condition their whole lives, likewise bipolar disorder. They are not acutely ill most of the time. You do not catch either of these conditions, like measles or flu - and there is a genetic component to vulnerability.
Objectively, the difference between them being defined as a mental illness rather than a developmental disorder, like asd, is that the onset of the condition is more likely to be 18 than 3 and the fact that medication can mitigate some of the symptoms (though that is also true for some people with asd).
The diagnostic distinction may be relevant to treatment and prognosis, but I do feel the degree of offence people take to whether the descriptive term condition, illness, problem, or disorder is used after the word "mental" is largely related to relative levels of stigma. To which people with conventionally described mental illness might reasonably respond - why are you so desperate to distance yourselves from us, what does that say about what you think about us ?
[ 06. August 2016, 18:13: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
It sometimes seems like AS are looking for the magic potion that will remove Autism from the world.
I see. That in and of itself doesn't invalidate the findings of the study that suggest that contrary to what was asserted above, there might be a link between autism and brain chemistry, though, does it?
Unless you believe mind is some free floating entity separate from the brain, there surely must be differences in the brains of people with autism and people without ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
I was talking specifically about autism
Indeed, that's part of the problem as I see it.
This thread was supposed to be about how congregations deal with mental health in general.
Since you first weighed in on this thread, you've been trying to put autism in a category apart, and not displayed any goodwill to any other category at all.
You are not keen on autism being classified as a "disorder", and in support of your view argue that (presumably unlike these "disorders") autism is a "neurological variant", which in turn, you argue, means that each autistic person is an individual case.
The clear implication is that individuality does not apply, or matter, when it comes to sufferers of these "disorders".
For my part, I have readily acknowledged the need for all autistic people to be considered as individuals, and of course congregations should be sensitive to the wide range of difficulties faced by people at different points on the autistic spectrum.
However, I can't find anywhere here where you acknowledge that the "individuality" you wish to claim for autistic people should apply to any other condition, and that's where I perceive the lack of goodwill to be.
It wouldn't take much for you to clear up that misunderstanding.
[corrected link]
E - please read for understanding. Since I was not talking about anything other than autism, nothing was implied about other conditions. You appear to be reacting to what I did not say rather than what I did. The misunderstanding, if any, is entirely yours.
Your use of "weighed in", by the way, seems an odd way to describe a contribution to the thread. Isn't that what every poster, including yourself, does?
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Doublethink, the brain has chemistry, and it has structure. The nerves form connections in various directions, dealing with various inputs. The messages are passed between them through the media of various substances. What I have read suggests that what varies in autism is the structure, not the messenger substances, which are known to be agents in some other conditions such as depression.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
It sometimes seems like AS are looking for the magic potion that will remove Autism from the world.
I see. That in and of itself doesn't invalidate the findings of the study that suggest that contrary to what was asserted above, there might be a link between autism and brain chemistry, though, does it?
Unless you believe mind is some free floating entity separate from the brain, there surely must be differences in the brains of people with autism and people without ?
There is far stronger evidence that there is a physical connectivity/ under-connectivity. Of course there is always brain chemistry since we have material bodies.
Article
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
You appear to be reacting to what I did not say rather than what I did.
I was reacting, originally, to this from you: quote:
I am not keen on the term "mental disorder" when applied to autism. As I understand it, autism is a neurological variant, and as Caissa implies, each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
I translate for a living, freelance, and one of the ways I keep my order book full is to spend time looking carefully at what is written.
In the above paragraph you are explaining why you are not keen for the term "mental disorder" to apply to autism. Your argument is twofold: i) autism is a neurological variant ii) each autistic person is an individual, one size doesn't fit all.
Your argument has no force at all if either of its propositions - and notably, the second one - can be fairly applied (from your perspective) to anyone with a mental disorder in addition to anyone with autism.
From this it is entirely legitimate to challenge you about your attitude to those you categorise as having mental disorders.
If you want me to let this go, all you'd have to do is concede that the "individuality" you wish to claim for autistic people should apply to those with any other condition.
Particularly as this seems to me to be Step 1 for anyone when it comes to better consideration of the mental health of all members of a congregation.
quote:
Your use of "weighed in", by the way, seems an odd way to describe a contribution to the thread. Isn't that what every poster, including yourself, does?
You can replace it with the term "contributed" if you wish. But the fact remains that all your contributions on this thread revolve around claiming autism as a case apart rather than considering any other condition.
Pointing up the distinctive requirements of this condition (as you see them) is fine, but doing so in disregard for the gamut of mental health issues a congregation might face doesn't come across as very empathetic.
[ 07. August 2016, 06:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
What is it that you think is so qualitatively different from a mental illness, why is making this distinction so crucially important to you ?
People who are autistic are not sick. (Unless they have a mental illness like depression for instance).
People with schizophrenia usually first experience symptoms in late teens / early twenties - they will then usually live with that condition their whole lives, likewise bipolar disorder. They are not acutely ill most of the time. You do not catch either of these conditions, like measles or flu - and there is a genetic component to vulnerability.
Objectively, the difference between them being defined as a mental illness rather than a developmental disorder, like asd, is that the onset of the condition is more likely to be 18 than 3 and the fact that medication can mitigate some of the symptoms (though that is also true for some people with asd).
The diagnostic distinction may be relevant to treatment and prognosis, but I do feel the degree of offence people take to whether the descriptive term condition, illness, problem, or disorder is used after the word "mental" is largely related to relative levels of stigma. To which people with conventionally described mental illness might reasonably respond - why are you so desperate to distance yourselves from us, what does that say about what you think about us ?
I'm not desperate to separate my self from anyone.
Autism is probably more akin to conditions like dyspraxia, dyslexia, perhaps Downs syndrome. I'm not sure about ADHD. I know people who have had diagnosis that were changed from one to the other. I don't think that any of these are mental illnesses. Disabilities yes. Disorders because they do not work like normal.
One big difference is that autism is a steady state- you don't see changes from time to time. It just is.
As Tony Attwood writing on Asperger's Syndrome said
quote:
The reader will be interested to know that I have discovered a means of removing almost all of the characteristics that define Asperger's syndrome in any child or adult. This simple procedure does not require expensive and prolonged therapy, surgery or medication, and has already been secretly discovered by those who have Aperger's syndrome. The procedure is actually rather simple. If you are a parent, take you child with Asperger's syndrome to his or her bedroom. Leave the child alone and close the door as you leave the room. The signs of Asperger's syndrome in your son or daughter have now disappeared.
Tony Attwood The complete guide to Asper's Syndrome. 2007
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Autism is probably more akin to conditions like dyspraxia, dyslexia, perhaps Downs syndrome.
This is turning into a whole separate debate, but it really isn't like Downs syndrome in that there isn't a yes/no chromosomal difference.
Even if there is zero difference in brain chemistry, and it's all down to connectivity between brain areas, there is no hard line between "brain wiring type A" and "brain wiring type B". I think everyone agrees autism is a spectrum.
Because of this, I think the diagnosis of autism has a very high social component. Here in France - one of the UK's closest neighbours - it was virtually unknown until a decade or so ago. I'm sure there are countries and cultures where if you explained an autism diagnosis people would just look at you blankly and quite possibly others where people would say "but everyone here's like that". One close relative who is a qualified health practitioner with an autistic child describes autism, in jest, as "extreme maleness".
(Not only do diagnoses evolve, entire conditions come and go. How long is it since you heard of anyone with ME (which never ever made it to France)?)
All of which takes me back to one of my first comments on this thread, i.e. congregations will need to have some acknowlegement of the prevailing social view of "mental health" issues if they are going to get anywhere at all in coping with them.
They may not agree with them, if they are in Soviet Russia they will certainly disagree with Christianity being labelled as a mental illness and its adherents interned in psychiatric hospitals, but they will have to get beyond simply arguing over labels.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally quoted by The Midge:
If you are a parent, take you child with Asperger's syndrome to his or her bedroom. Leave the child alone and close the door as you leave the room. The signs of Asperger's syndrome in your son or daughter have now disappeared.
This offers further evidence that the challenges for people on the ASD spectrum are above all social, doesn't it?
Which is where, labels aside, we come back to the issue raised in the OP.
[ 07. August 2016, 08:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
]This offers further evidence that the challenges for people on the ASD spectrum are above all social, doesn't it?
Which is where, labels aside, we come back to the issue raised in the OP.
By definition Eutychus. National Autism Society (UK)
So answering the questions "Is Autism a mental illness?" No.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
We have more than our fair share of autism in our family. I get to see it first hand. The kids who don't get invited to parties, ever. Unintentional exclusion because fellowship time is so damned inaccessible.
How could fellowship time be made more accessible to people with autism?
From the link to the Welcoming Autistic People in our Churches and Communities above:
Two Minutes to Spare?
Just read this:
Quick Low Cost Things to Make a Difference for Autistic People.
Always ask us what may help. Our brains take in too much detail. Our brain wiring can literally overheat as it tries to handle too much input at once. We try very hard to avoid an overload of sensory or social situations. It’s not us being awkward, it’s a physical brain difficulty.
1. Check the lights in each room, especially fluorescent ones – any flickering ones? Please replace them with new ones or LED ones with a diffuser panel and no dimmer switch.
2. Noise levels. Is there anything unexpected in today’s service/meeting? Can it be changed easily? If not, can you warn us? [My note "back ground music" can be problematic because it adds a whole layer of auditory stimulation. Please turn it off!]
3. The building. Do we know what it looks like, and what the layout is like? Is there information on a simple website, perhaps?
4. The Order of service – really clear instructions for us e.g. where to sit, when to stand and sit, what to say at each point? Either write it down, or get someone to be with us to quietly say what to do, please. (This also helps those new to church).
5. We are very literal, and our minds may see pictures, not words. If you need to use complicated language, can someone be available to explain it afterwards if we need it, maybe by email? (This helps those who find reading more difficult, too, which is one in every five people in the UK)
6. Physical events e.g. shaking hands? Water being splashed about? We may find this physically painful, as many are hypersensitive. Please warn us what will happen, and avoid physical contact unless we offer first.
7. Rest area – somewhere quiet to go if we need to, please. Or don’t worry if we wander outside for a while.
8. Socialising. Be aware we find it difficult and exhausting as we cannot ‘see’ or hear you that well, especially in a crowd. Our body language can be different to yours, and we may not make eye contact. Please don’t think we’re rude. Sitting next to us to chat, somewhere quieter, is easier than facing us.
9. Be Clear and Accurate. If you say you’ll do something, please do it. Those on the autistic spectrum will always find it very distressing if you promise to help and don’t, or promise to phone at a certain time and don’t. Or if you use expressions like, “I’ll be back in five minutes” when you mean, “I’ll be back some time in the next hour”. If you need to change arrangements, please just let us know.
10. Support: Find a quiet caring person to be aware of us, someone ready to lend a little assistance if we need it. Brief them well, and please respect our confidentiality and privacy.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
E - you insist on claiming that I because I referred to one particular condition I was deliberately excluding others from individuality etc. I was making no comment at all about anything other than autism. Please stop setting up straw targets which have nothing to do with what I actually said. It's unnecessary to "concede" that every human on the planet is an individual. That's bleeding obvious, and I'd take it kindly if you would stop attributing ideas to me which I have not expressed.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
*tangent*
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Autism is probably more akin to conditions like dyspraxia, dyslexia, perhaps Downs syndrome. I'm not sure about ADHD. I know people who have had diagnosis that were changed from one to the other. I don't think that any of these are mental illnesses. Disabilities yes. Disorders because they do not work like normal.
This comment reminded me of what is wonderful about the Ship. Several years ago on a thread about transportation, a shippie mentioned that s/he could not ride a bike, being dyspraxic.
This was a term I'd never heard before, despite working in the mental health field for several years. It's not a common diagnosis in the US. But I have a son who was never able to ride a bike despite years of frustrating attempts. Curious, I googled the term and found scant info on American sites but a very detailed and extensive UK site. Reading the diagnostic criteria, I became convinced it fit my son. He had been referred earlier for testing for ADHD as a young child, the conclusion was he did not have ADHD but had what at that time was simply referred to as "immaturity" and a cluster of symptoms. In the years since, the info I found on the UK site have been helpful to me and my now-adult child many times, as he struggled with things like learning to drive a car. Honestly, it has made a huge difference (for one, we stopped trying to teach him how to ride a bike).
Obviously we don't want to get into things like amateur or remote diagnosis, but the sharing of resources/info that happens even unintentionally on a site like this is truly a wonderful thing.
*end tangent*
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
each autistic person is an individual, with a range of neurological characteristics/sensitivities which may be greater or lesser, depending. One size doesn't fit all.
So it's important to you that those with autism are recognised as individuals with a range of characteristics and sensitivities. Great. quote:
It's unnecessary to "concede" that every human on the planet is an individual. That's bleeding obvious.
But for everyone else, including those with mental disorders, say, people diagnosed with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, such recognition is "bleeding obvious".
Oh.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
A mentally healthier congregation?
Pastors can remind us, often, that once we have confessed our sins and been forgiven, the sins are over, in the past, erased, done, We can and should quit beating ourselves up about them and move on.
We can be encouraged to see one another -- the one who can't bear to be touched during The Peace, the one who periodically shouts random words, the one who needs reassurance that the dish you brought for pot luck isn't poisoned, the cranky old lady -- as the delightful, interesting, quirky, loveable people we are.
[ 07. August 2016, 20:20: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(Not only do diagnoses evolve, entire conditions come and go. How long is it since you heard of anyone with ME (which never ever made it to France)?)
I hear of it quite regularly, but then I know a few sufferers. I can assure you ME hasn't "gone" as far as they are concerned, but you're not alone in thinking that and the battle for proper recognition continues.
BTW today is Severe ME Awareness Day
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is it really incumbent on a church to prepare itself for every type of condition, symptom package, disorder or illness?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is it really incumbent on a church to prepare itself for every type of condition, symptom package, disorder or illness?
As an individual congregation, we can't-- it's just not feasible. But we should be able to respond to the needs of the people right in front of us-- the ones who come to our door. That's difficult, especially for smaller churches, but it is essential to our calling, so pretty much non-optional.
This is where being part of a larger connectional church is a Very Good Thing-- because a large denominational body can, in fact, think thru these issues and have resources available their various individual congregations can draw from as these specific needs arise.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is it really incumbent on a church to prepare itself for every type of condition, symptom package, disorder or illness?
Good question.
For something that affects 1 in 4 I would say yes. Being aware and missionary minded means that a church has to be on the look out for and be prepared to admit people with conditions. At the very least churches will need to willing to listen and adapt when they come them.
As the saying goes "The church is an organisation that doesn't exist for itself". At east that is a theory.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Good question.
For something that affects 1 in 4 I would say yes. Being aware and missionary minded means that a church has to be on the look out for and be prepared to admit people with conditions. At the very least churches will need to willing to listen and adapt when they come them.
As the saying goes "The church is an organisation that doesn't exist for itself". At east that is a theory.
So we're not talking of Autism then.
quote:
DSM-5, p 55, heading "Prevalence" reads:
In recent years, reported frequencies for autism spectrum disorder across the U.S. and non-U.S. countries have approached 1% of the population, with similar estimates in child and adult samples.
It goes on to say that these rates are an increase from prior, and uncertain if this is increased awareness, subthreshold cases being included, or true increase in the frequency.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Ordinary friendliness works, but is not alwayeasy to instigate.
I run coffee mornings for guide dogs at my house. They are fundraisers, that's their purpose. I put leaflets around the local area when one is coming up.
They have turned out to be great social, neighbourly occasions. Many old folk who are almost housebound turn up and we are getting to know each other like never before. They come, with heads held high to do the charity a good turn. Meanwhile they are helped too.
I love this, so great.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Is it really incumbent on a church to prepare itself for every type of condition, symptom package, disorder or illness?
You mean formal prepare like for a major incident or something?
I'm sorry to be flippant, but this people that we are talking about here. Broken, hurting. A little humanity often goes a very long way.
In much the same way as we learn about other people in our daily lives, as churches we also learn, through getting to know each other.
I'm liking Twilight and Lamb Chopped's words.....
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So we're not talking of Autism then.
No. This thread is about mental health ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
We should go with 1 in 5 then I think: Prevalance of any mental illness is 18.1% according to this USA info. Now, that stat cited, we can assume/presume that family members will be involved and affected in some way. So we could elevate the total impact statistic.
Further browsing of those stats indicate that 4-5% have a serious mental illness. These folks will have a lot more trouble I think, I take serious as at the level of hospital and ongoing psychiatric care.
Re Autism, I think I'd conceptualize it's as a mental disorder or relatively stable condition, which is different understanding than a progressive illness or even a waxing and waning illness. It's probably in situations of dual diagnosis that things get more troubling, e.g., depression, behavioural disturbances added to the Autism.
The diagnosis of interest to us where I live in terms of neuro-development is FASD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We should go with 1 in 5 then I think: Prevalance of any mental illness is 18.1% according to this USA info. Now, that stat cited, we can assume/presume that family members will be involved and affected in some way. So we could elevate the total impact statistic.
Further browsing of those stats indicate that 4-5% have a serious mental illness. These folks will have a lot more trouble I think, I take serious as at the level of hospital and ongoing psychiatric care.
Re Autism, I think I'd conceptualize it's as a mental disorder or relatively stable condition, which is different understanding than a progressive illness or even a waxing and waning illness. It's probably in situations of dual diagnosis that things get more troubling, e.g., depression, behavioural disturbances added to the Autism.
The diagnosis of interest to us where I live in terms of neuro-development is FASD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.
I don't think it works to say "this illness/ condition/ disability/ atypical condition is common, so we need to be prepared for it..." but "your illness /condition /disability /atypical condition is less common, so we can't be expected to deal with it."
We are called to care for the persons right in front of us, whether their situation is common or uncommon. We deal with them not as a group or a class of people or a disability or a disease, we deal with them as people, with all the challenges particular to them in their particular life situation.
Again, having access to resources such as can be found from large denominational bodies is quite helpful when you find yourself in unanticipated situations. But first of all we have to recognize that our calling is to welcome and care for the people in front of us-- as people-- whoever they might be.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
(Not only do diagnoses evolve, entire conditions come and go. How long is it since you heard of anyone with ME (which never ever made it to France)?)
I hear of it quite regularly, but then I know a few sufferers. I can assure you ME hasn't "gone" as far as they are concerned, but you're not alone in thinking that and the battle for proper recognition continues.
BTW today is Severe ME Awareness Day
No, renamed CFS/ME in the UK, CFIDS in the US, it still exists as an umbrella diagnosis for anything debilitating that cannot be diagnosed otherwise, and identified in several different forms, I suspect the different cases will be eventually diagnosed with rare conditions. So far I know sufferers who were later diagnosed with: an unusual form of pernicious anaemia, someone else who had a genetic mitochondrial problem that killed her at 40, leaving a son with the same condition, and a couple of girls suffering the effects of the hypermobility form of Ehlers-Danos Syndrome at puberty - that's another genetic disorder, this one of collagen formation, and very hormone sensitive.
[ 12. August 2016, 20:51: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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