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Thread: MW 2865: Holy Trinity Pro-Cathedral, Brussels, Belgium
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
Back to this being a Pro-Cathedral, how come it's a pro-Cathedral when the diocesan bishop has a perfectly good proper Cathedral in Gibraltar?
Distance, I think. Gib is a long way from Northern Europe where most of the congregations are.
quote:
Is it the place where a Suffragan bishop hangs out? Suffragans in England seem to manage without pro-Cathedrals, but I guess having many cathedrals might be useful in geographically larger diocese.
I don't think so. I don't think this church has any kind of permanent bishop, just an occasional one. I don't think it would be called a Cathedral in England - pro or otherwise. Poss analogous to Coventry Cathedral pre 1918 when it was a parish church with special status.
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arse
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
My guess is that this has to do with the prior existence of the colonial Diocese of Gibraltar (1842), which covered the fortress-colony and whose bishop was responsible for CoE chaplaincies in southern Europe and the Mediterranean. Northern European chaplaincies were part of the Diocese of London (by Caroline order-in-council) and, for many years were administered by the Bishop of Fulham, suffragan to the Bishop of London.
Around 1980 (if memory serves me well), they tried to rationalize the Anglicans-in-Europe situation by creating a Diocese of Gibraltar in Europe (there is an overlapping TEC jurisdiction called the Convocation of American Churches, as well as overlapping Portuguese and Spanish Churches, and then there are the Old Catholic Churches, and now there are arrangements under the Porvoo Agreement, all fodder for ecclesiastical jurisdiction foamers and geeks). So Brussells' pro-cathedral status likely finds its origin in its Fulham jurisdiction days....
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Ah yes, you might be right there. Of course, we now have a diocese in England with three, I think cathedrals (W Yorks and the Dales), though how long that will last I don't know. And CofI dioceses seem to have lots of cathedrals, although CofI shipmates will be able to tell me whether e.g. Limerick, Ardfert, Aghadoe, Killaloe, Kilfenora, Clonfert, Kilmacduagh and Emly is strictly speaking one diocese or a collection of dioceses.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Used to be based somewhere near Crawley, IIRC, handy for Gatwick Airport.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Diocese of Europe admin is based in the UK, the Bishop is in Brussels, Cathedral in Gib. Handy.
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arse
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Diocese of Europe admin is based in the UK, the Bishop is in Brussels, Cathedral in Gib. Handy.
Sort of how the Dutch government works ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Diocese of Europe admin is based in the UK, the Bishop is in Brussels, Cathedral in Gib. Handy.
If I understand right, the territory included in the diocese amounts to about 25% of the land mass of the world. Seen in that context, what you describe is centralisation!
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
Well I guess the bishop's local church is allowed to be a pro cathedral.
I'd never thought about where the diocese of Gibraltar was administered from before. Interesting.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Diocese of Europe admin is based in the UK, the Bishop is in Brussels, Cathedral in Gib. Handy.
I have picked up that Revd. Canon Robert Innes, until now, Chancellor of the pro-cathedral in Brussels, has been appointed Bishop of Gibraltar in Europe. (They have chancellors, rather than deans in this case.)
I notice that while Canon Innes has been on the staff of the pro-cathedral, he had a home address in Waterloo, interestingly enough. It is recorded somewhere, that he is going to be based in Brussels when he takes up his new appointment and it may mean that he won't be moving house.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Ah yes, you might be right there. Of course, we now have a diocese in England with three, I think cathedrals (W Yorks and the Dales), though how long that will last I don't know. And CofI dioceses seem to have lots of cathedrals, although CofI shipmates will be able to tell me whether e.g. Limerick, Ardfert, Aghadoe, Killaloe, Kilfenora, Clonfert, Kilmacduagh and Emly is strictly speaking one diocese or a collection of dioceses.
In Ireland, these are united dioceses, usually with a cathedral for each of the constituent sees (although a few of the western ones have not had a functioning cathedral for some centuries, such as Achonry in the diocese of Killala & Achonry, which united with Tuam-- in the United Diocese of Limerick et al, Ardfert cathedral burned down in 1641 and Emly's was demolished in 1877 and this united diocese retains two cathedrals of the original 8). Owing to (among other things), civil disorder and the absence of Irish-speaking clergy, many of the western and southern dioceses never had more than a nebulous existence.
While it's odd ecclesiology, multiple cathedrals is not a new phenomenon, nor restricted to Ireland. The RC diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall in eastern Ontario features a cathedral and a co-cathedral, but no chapter for either of them.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I have picked up that Revd. Canon Robert Innes, until now, Chancellor of the pro-cathedral in Brussels, has been appointed Bishop of Gibraltar in Europe.
Yes he is now in office, having been consecrated in July last year.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
While it's odd ecclesiology, multiple cathedrals is not a new phenomenon, nor restricted to Ireland. The RC diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall in eastern Ontario features a cathedral and a co-cathedral, but no chapter for either of them.
Our diocese has a co-cathedral too. The diocese contains two major urban areas. The larger has the cathedral and the smaller the co-cathedral. Major diocesan events that permit it get done twice. Trust me, we think nothing odd of it at all when we we're saved a four hour round trip during Holy Week to attend chrism Mass!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
In Valletta Malta, where I was in January, there is a Catholic cocathedral and an Anglican procathedral within short distance of one another.
I wasn't sure of the difference, but wikipedia says that a pro is temporary. I guess temporary is a relative term.
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Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Well, indeed, the main Roman Catholic church in Dublin (!) is a Pro-cathedral. I've never worked out if this is a snub to the Dubs or because there is still some long-term plan to replace it with a permanent cathedral at some later point.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Not the only example. The Bishop of St David's lives at Abergwili which is just outside Carmarthen and a long way from St David's.
In the diocese of Bath and Wells, the cathedral is at Wells. Bath Abbey is a parish church.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
And Monmouth diocese's cathedral is at Newport.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Ah yes, you might be right there. Of course, we now have a diocese in England with three, I think cathedrals (W Yorks and the Dales), though how long that will last I don't know. And CofI dioceses seem to have lots of cathedrals, although CofI shipmates will be able to tell me whether e.g. Limerick, Ardfert, Aghadoe, Killaloe, Kilfenora, Clonfert, Kilmacduagh and Emly is strictly speaking one diocese or a collection of dioceses.
In Ireland, these are united dioceses, usually with a cathedral for each of the constituent sees (although a few of the western ones have not had a functioning cathedral for some centuries, such as Achonry in the diocese of Killala & Achonry, which united with Tuam-- in the United Diocese of Limerick et al, Ardfert cathedral burned down in 1641 and Emly's was demolished in 1877 and this united diocese retains two cathedrals of the original 8). Owing to (among other things), civil disorder and the absence of Irish-speaking clergy, many of the western and southern dioceses never had more than a nebulous existence.
While it's odd ecclesiology, multiple cathedrals is not a new phenomenon, nor restricted to Ireland. The RC diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall in eastern Ontario features a cathedral and a co-cathedral, but no chapter for either of them.
And the Diocese of New Westminster, IIRC, still retains its former cathedral in New Westminster as a pro-cathedral, in addition to the current one in Vancouver. (The naming of the diocese has always struck me as rather like calling that of Toronto "the Diocese of Mississauga," but perhaps NW was originally destined for loftier status. It would explain the name).
The oldest RC church in Toronto, St Paul's Basilica (so designated in 1999), is also a pro-cathedral.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Well, indeed, the main Roman Catholic church in Dublin (!) is a Pro-cathedral. I've never worked out if this is a snub to the Dubs or because there is still some long-term plan to replace it with a permanent cathedral at some later point.
Christchurch has been the cathedral of Dublin since the 1100s. As there are currently some squatters in it that have proven rather hard to evict, a pro-cathedral is needed. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
As one C of I clergyman told me, the RCs reckon Dublin has three cathedrals. One pro, and two amateurs.
(The C of I has two Dublin cathedrals - Christ Church and St Patrick's.)
[ 30. June 2015, 07:00: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There's a thought- where you have a 'national cathedral' like St Patrick's or the one at Washington DC, which bishop's cathedra does it contain? Presiding Bishop, in the case of Washington, the PB not having a diocese? But what about St Patrick's, where both Irish Primates have their own dioceses and cathedrals?
[ 30. June 2015, 07:45: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
Is that a similar situation to in Rome, where the bishop of Rome has both St John's Lateran (which I think is actually Rome's cathedral) and St Peters.
I get the impression that what happens is that everyone tends to forget about the city cathedral.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I have been in ultra-low Anglican churches for decades and was not even aware that there was a special "Gospel" reading
Having frequented a major English Cathedral in recent weeks, I now appreciate what you are all talking about.
I have heard rumours that some Evangelicals now celebrate the Holy Communion without a gospel reading. They jolly well shouldn't. It's a mandatory part of the service. The name "Evangelical" means following the gospel in any case.
My experince here was that not only did they not have the Gospel but there was no offertory or fraction either.
This is a far cry from the prayerful and 'legal' evangelical communion services in the late 1950s.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I have picked up that Revd. Canon Robert Innes, until now, Chancellor of the pro-cathedral in Brussels, has been appointed Bishop of Gibraltar in Europe.
Yes he is now in office, having been consecrated in July last year.
If my information refers to last year and not this, then my oversight.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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