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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purple
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Yes, the gospel at Solemn Mass was always sung facing north, usually inside, or in a small church, just outside the sanctuary. It still is in places where the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is celebrated. It is not odd-looking, as usually the gospel procession is not that far from the altar, and it does not involve an unusual seating arrangements. See. http://youtu.be/bWmcbpXd_3Q
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Yes, the gospel at Solemn Mass was always sung facing north, usually inside, or in a small church, just outside the sanctuary. It still is in places where the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is celebrated. It is not odd-looking, as usually the gospel procession is not that far from the altar, and it does not involve an unusual seating arrangements. See. http://youtu.be/bWmcbpXd_3Q The gospel procession forms at 22:00 in.
[ 29. November 2015, 18:25: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Advent... traditionally involves fasting in the run up to Christmas - it's why people eat fish on Christmas Eve.
Never heard of eating fish Christmas Eve!
But I grew up low church in the Protestant Episcopal Church. In my youth we didn't have colored hangings, the only garment worn by clergy was black, year round. Fasting (giving up meat for fish) was scorned as "Catholic" (usually pronounced "Papish").
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
...don't tell me- when you were so poor you could only afford meat once a week, you always saved it for Friday... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Advent... traditionally involves fasting in the run up to Christmas - it's why people eat fish on Christmas Eve.
Never heard of eating fish Christmas Eve!
Me neither -- except my Swedish grandmother who had to have her herring on Christmas Eve (but at least it wasn't lutefisk!).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
It is traditional in many countries e.g. Oysters in France, eel in Italy, carp in Poland.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Cod in egg sauce popular in my circles. The tortiere came out at Revillon, after mass on Christmas Eve. Usually that was, in my youth, at 0130.
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Even more so than I was before
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Fasting (giving up meat for fish) was scorned as "Catholic" (usually pronounced "Papish").
They can't have been reading their prayer books then!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Surely everyone's heard of the Italian Feast of Seven Fishes? But yes, fish on Christmas Eve is extremely common and the norm in Catholic countries.
Now being used by food charities.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Surely everyone's heard of the Italian Feast of Seven Fishes? But yes, fish on Christmas Eve is extremely common and the norm in Catholic countries.
Nope, this is a new one for me. But I never lived in a Catholic country. (The Catholic traditions in these parts are mostly Hispanic.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Surely everyone's heard of the Italian Feast of Seven Fishes? But yes, fish on Christmas Eve is extremely common and the norm in Catholic countries.
Now I am confused. Is eating fish "fasting" or "feasting"?
Anyway, I thought fasting means eating simple foods, common and inexpensive. Where I live the simple meals are vegetarian, like beans and rice, or rice and lentils, or a peanut butter sandwich.
Where I live, fish is a more special food than chicken or the cheaper cuts of beef than have to be ground or pounded or cooked for hours to be edible. The idea of fish as universally a common cheaply available food therefore a food for fasting is inconsistent with practical reality.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In most of Central Europe the traditional Christmas dinner eaten on the evening of 24th December is completely meatless. In Poland it is called 'Wigilia'.The main course is by tradition carp.
Until about 30 years ago the Eve of Christmas was a fast day in the Catholic church and this has had enormous influence on the traditional form of the Christmas Eve dinner.
For almost every area in Europe apart from the British Isles the family meal for Christmas is held on the evening of 24th Dec.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/slight tangent alert/
It was the American satirist/song writer Tom Lehrer who, many years ago (when introducing Vatican Rag) observed that there seemed to be some inconsistency in the RCC's rules, in that 'it was all right for a soldier to kill a man on a Friday, but a sin to eat him......'.
My own p-in-c (not an RC, but if the Pope says 'Jump!, he asks 'How high?') was recently rabbiting on about how and his wife had 'pigged out' (his words) on a cheap-and-cheerful pizza one Friday at our new local ASDA. He pointed out the fact that the pizza was meat-free, but got a bit antsy when I asked how this was in any way 'fasting' (given that his own stated reason for abstaining from meat on Fridays was to give honour to Our Lord and his sufferings on the cross....).
WTF is all this shite about?
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
/slight tangent alert/
. . .
My own p-in-c (not an RC, but if the Pope says 'Jump!, he asks 'How high?') was recently rabbiting on about how and his wife had 'pigged out' (his words) on a cheap-and-cheerful pizza one Friday at our new local ASDA. He pointed out the fact that the pizza was meat-free, but got a bit antsy when I asked how this was in any way 'fasting' (given that his own stated reason for abstaining from meat on Fridays was to give honour to Our Lord and his sufferings on the cross....).
WTF is all this shite about?
Reminds me somewhat of the church where I sang in the choir while in college. The Good Friday service was three hours long—technically, it was three separate services back-to-back, with some cushion between. Lunch was available in the parish hall throughout. Since it was Good Friday, the lunch was meatless. The main dish on offer was lobster bisque.
That always seemed to me to be missing the point somewhat, adhering to the letter of law while totally missing the spirit of the law.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Fasting (giving up meat for fish) was scorned as "Catholic" (usually pronounced "Papish").
They can't have been reading their prayer books then!
The Geneva-gown ghetto has never been any better at obeying the prayer book than the Anglo-Catholics have.
Although I will say that in my experience, A-Cs are more apt to add to what's in the BCP than to subtract from it.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Nick Tamen posts:
quote:
The main dish on offer was lobster bisque.
That always seemed to me to be missing the point somewhat, adhering to the letter of law while totally missing the spirit of the law.
Not necessarily; the rector may have been aware that his choir contained several gourmands who were allergic to shellfish.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Lytton Strachey in his picture of Cardinal Wiseman quotes one of Wiseman's colleagues who, after describing how HE sat down to a lunch containing 4 courses of fish, said that "There is a lobster salad side to the Cardinal".
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Surely everyone's heard of the Italian Feast of Seven Fishes? But yes, fish on Christmas Eve is extremely common and the norm in Catholic countries.
Now I am confused. Is eating fish "fasting" or "feasting"?
Anyway, I thought fasting means eating simple foods, common and inexpensive. Where I live the simple meals are vegetarian, like beans and rice, or rice and lentils, or a peanut butter sandwich.
Where I live, fish is a more special food than chicken or the cheaper cuts of beef than have to be ground or pounded or cooked for hours to be edible. The idea of fish as universally a common cheaply available food therefore a food for fasting is inconsistent with practical reality.
Eating fish is fasting, but Christmas Eve is often the day many Europeans open their gifts and is the main day of Christmas so in this case it is part of a feast. I don't see the confusion.
Also of course fish isn't a requirement of Catholic fasting but going without meat is - I can't imagine that vegetarian food is particularly rare or expensive where you live, and that is a perfectly normal feature of Catholic fasting. Vintage recipe cards for Lenten dishes from Catholic areas often show dishes like macaroni cheese or vegetarian stuffed peppers.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
A little clarification here, since we are speaking about RC disciplines in this tangent.
Fasting is going without food. It means having only one meal in the day, and two small snacks ("collations"), which together do not add up to a full meal. The only canonically required fasting days currently are Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. Others, however, can be recommended by the Pontiff or the bishops. Francis did so for peace in the Middle East in 2013. Sometimes bishops' conferences or individual bishops will do the same, for a specific cause. As has been mentioned here, the pre-Vatican II discipline included a greater number of fast days, one of which was the Vigil of Christmas, a.k.a. Christmas Eve.
Abstinence is the practice of not eating meat. This is canonically required on all Fridays of the year, except on solemnities, which are the highest-ranking feasts, that fall on a Friday. Two solemnities that are always on Fridays are Easter Friday and the Sacred Heart. Others may fall on a Friday. However, bishops' conferences may permit the substitution of another discipline in place of abstinence on Fridays outside of Lent. Some bishops' conferences specify which substitutions can be made: Not sure if this is still the case, but the French bishops directed Friday abstinence from meat, wine or cigarettes, at the choice of the individual. U.S. and Canadian bishops direct the individual to decide on the Friday practice outside of Lent--the instruction of which, sadly, has been neglected by many priests, leaving their parishioners thinking that only on Lenten Fridays is anything different done from the rest of the week. The English bishops for many years had a similar "choose it yourself" directive (though they listed some choices among the options), re-established the traditional year-round abstinence in 2011.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks for the clarification, Ceremoniar. ISTM that abstaining from meat but pigging out on a non-meat pizza somehow misses the point.....though I'm still not sure exactly what the point of abstaining from meat actually is .
Whatever, this sort of thing should surely be a private matter between the person concerned and God, if it is part of their personal spirituality. Who was it who said we shouldn't parade our piety in front of others?
Apologies for prolonging the tangent.
Our Place was duly empurpled on Sunday, complete with Advent wreath (3xpurple candles, 1xpink, and 1xwhite).
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In the olden days meat was something which could not easily be afforded or even obtained every day, at least for most people.
It made sense to give up something which was special on the day traditionally associated with the death of the Lord.
Nowadays this situation no longer obtains ,at least in the developed world .This is why the traditional practice of Catholics abstaining from meat on Fridays was dispensed with,at the time of Vatican 2.
Catholics were asked to choose their own penance on a Friday. No doubt some do , but centuries of thinking of no meat on a Friday, can not be changed to something else easily.
It was said to be a mortal sin to eat meat on a Friday and this idea was backed up often from the pulpit,almost as bad as missing Mass on a Sunday. Since Vatican 2 one rarely hears of mortal sin, sometimes one even rarely hears of sin and most people have completely forgotten what used to be a distinguishing mark of Catholics.
BF asks what is the point? Fair enough,it is just a trifle compared with recognising Jesus as out Lord and Saviour. One could equally ask, what is the point of using purple vestments during Advent or rose coloured vestments on the 3rd Sunday of Advent ? How far do these traditions advance the Kingdom of God on earth or prepare Christians for the Kingdom to come ?
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks for the clarification, Ceremoniar. ISTM that abstaining from meat but pigging out on a non-meat pizza somehow misses the point.....though I'm still not sure exactly what the point of abstaining from meat actually is .
Whatever, this sort of thing should surely be a private matter between the person concerned and God, if it is part of their personal spirituality. Who was it who said we shouldn't parade our piety in front of others?
I would agree about feasting on non-meat on days of abstinence. Eating a ton of ice cream would be equally un-penitential for most--though not all, certainly. Those who follow the letter of the law to the exclusion of its spirit do so at their own risk.
The point of abstinence is sacrifice, since meat is a staple (if not the staple) of diets in much of the world. The lack of substance and sustenance is intended to serve a penitential purpose, through self-denial. Obviously, there is no small number of folks for whom abstinence from meat is no penance, such as vegetarians. They would be well-advised to abstain from something closer to their palate. But the Church's law is quite minimal, as it is intended to point people in the direction of sanctity through moderation, not actually accomplish it. Our Lord did give His Church the power to bind and loose, through Peter. So a minimal discipline is established, and people are asked to accept and practice it, in the name of fostering holiness, and uniting themselves with the Lord's practice in the desert. Should there be a truly extraordinary situation, a dispensation may be sought from one's confessor or pastor.
As for not parading piety, that's obviously a given. Nothing in the minimal discipline that the Church currently practices even remotely suggests doing so, and I am unclear as to how or why it is even mentioned here. People who fast or abstain should not be advertising it, or even bring it up, IMHO, unless specifically asked. Even then, the explanation should be brief, factual, and free of anything even remotely self-aggrandizing. I've never really noticed anyone do otherwise.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thank you, Ceremoniar - very clearly explained.
The person I mentioned does tend to parade his Friday abstinence, perhaps thinking that it makes him look more holy. He is not a member of the RCC, so not bound even by the minimal (and very sensible-sounding) discipline you describe.
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Yes, the gospel at Solemn Mass was always sung facing north, usually inside, or in a small church, just outside the sanctuary. It still is in places where the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite is celebrated. It is not odd-looking, as usually the gospel procession is not that far from the altar, and it does not involve an unusual seating arrangements. See. http://youtu.be/bWmcbpXd_3Q The gospel procession forms at 22:00 in.
Thank you for all those who've commented about this curious custom. 'One learns something new every day'. I have to admit though that the only sense in which it does not look odd is that since the whole service is in a tongue not understanded of the people, a thicko like me might not have realised when the service had got to at that point.
Incidentally, I happen to have a Catholic Sunday Missal from the 1940s. It has a parallel translation of everything that was then in Latin. It looks as though it covered the UK and Irish Republic. It gives the strong impression that the Gospel was normally said or sung (depending on whether a Low or High Mass) in English. The rubric says the gospel is read from the gospel (i.e. left) side but there's no suggestion it was read or sung facing in any other direction than the obvious one, i.e. towards the people who are supposed to be listening to it.
I'm CofE and have no experience of a pre-Vatican II Mass. So I suppose four questions about those days. Is there any Catholic shipmate old enough to remember?
1. Was the gospel normally in Latin or the vernacular?
2. Did this differ depending on whether you were in the British Isles or another Anglophone part of the world?
3. At an ordinary parish Mass, would it usually have been read or sung?
4. In which direction would the person reading or singing it have been facing?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In the olden days meat was something which could not easily be afforded or even obtained every day, at least for most people.
It made sense to give up something which was special on the day traditionally associated with the death of the Lord.
Nowadays this situation no longer obtains ,at least in the developed world .This is why the traditional practice of Catholics abstaining from meat on Fridays was dispensed with,at the time of Vatican 2.
Thank you for the history. Growing up in a "meat is the cheap food, fish is a special and rare treat" culture, I never understood why eating fish instead of meat was considered "fasting" (abstinence). Sounds like "eat simple foods on Fridays" would have communicated less confusingly.
I don't question the point of periodic abstinence or fasting; I question taking a locally reasonable custom and imposing it on all the world even where locally it doesn't make sense, such as "eat fish instead of meat on Fridays." That culture-bound proclamation confuses instead of clarifying the underlying message.
But several web pages say the RCC rule against meat still applies during lent, even for lands where fish is more expensive and less common than meat. Sounds like awareness that in some areas meat is cheaper and more common than fish isn't the full reason for removing the "avoid meat" rule.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't question the point of periodic abstinence or fasting; I question taking a locally reasonable custom and imposing it on all the world even where locally it doesn't make sense, such as "eat fish instead of meat on Fridays." That culture-bound proclamation confuses instead of clarifying the underlying message.
You're forgetting the 11th Commandment: "Because that's the way we've always done it."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Thank you for the history. Growing up in a "meat is the cheap food, fish is a special and rare treat" culture, I never understood why eating fish instead of meat was considered "fasting" (abstinence). Sounds like "eat simple foods on Fridays" would have communicated less confusingly.
Well indeed. To quote some doggerel I once heard,
quote:
The Church's rules on abstinence,
Most peculiar are.
She bids me Feast on sausage-meat
And Fast on caviare.
I would however take issue with the concept of meat as a 'staple'. It never was, and the idea that it might be is a feature almost unique to the developed world in the last few decades - and obviously completely unsustainable. Meat was to be avoided because it was a luxury, and I believe the Eastern rites are more explicit about forbidding other luxuries such as alcohol and dairy products as well.
Most of the people who were subject to the rule wouldn't even have noticed it, any more than the average Christian in Sub-Saharan African does today. Not very difficult to avoid eating meat when you mostly eat millet porridge every meal of your life...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
... Meat was to be avoided because it was a luxury, and I believe the Eastern rites are more explicit about forbidding other luxuries such as alcohol and dairy products as well. ...
Orthodox shipmates will undoubtedly know a lot more than I do, but I understand the position to be that on a fast day, ( inter alia the whole of Lent and every Monday, Wednesday and Friday throughout the year) no animal products at all, not just no meat or fish, but no milk, cheese, butter, eggs etc, nothing cooked with fat, no oil and no wine.
I seem to remember hearing somewhere that the wine prohibition is specifically of wine, not alcohol, so that beer is OK.
On the other hand, fish without spines, such as shrimps or shellfish don't count as fish. Nor do snails. There's even a category of feasting fasting recipes (e.g. shrimps) for eating if a saint's day falls on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday.
Perhaps an Orthodox shipmate can also tell us how strictly in practice ordinary lay people in, say, Greece or the US, keep this.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I'm still not sure exactly what the point of abstaining from meat actually is .
Meats will thank you
I have a friend who abstains from meat during Lent (not even munching on a permitted sausage on Sundays or red-letter days) on the grounds that he is able to enter into a time when he does not derive his sustenance from the lives of other creatures.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Enoch
in pre Vatican 2 days the Gospel would have been read IN LATIN in all Roman Catholic churches whether they were in UK,France,America,Africa or China or indeed anywhere in the world.
Most Masses would have been Low Masses without music. The priest would have faced the altar and the tabernacle (he would have had his back to the people and leading them towards God).
At Sunday Masses the Gospel (and the epistle) would usually be read in the vernacular also, generally from the pulpit at the same time as the priest was in the pulpit for the sermon.
At the principal Mass on a Sunday if it were celebrated as a Missa Cantata (Sung Mass) then the Gospel would be sung in Latin in the same way that it was read.
Only on the relatively rare occasions for ordinary Catholic parishes when High Mass was sung
(celebration with a deacon and sub deacon) would the Gospel be sung facing liturgical north (to help announce the Word of God to the unevangelised north when Christianity was already well developed in the south of Europe.
Enoch may have seen in a typical popular missal from the period of the 1940s that the Epistle and Gospel were often printed only in the vernacular.
This was not because they were read or sung in the vernacular,but simply because most people in the pews would not want to read the Gospel in Latin and it would save on printing costs.
On the other hand they might want to read in Latin both the Ordinary (mainly unchanging parts)
as well as the Latin forms of the Introit,Gradual,Offertory and Communion verses which might be sung by the choir at a Sung Mass.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Thank you Forthview.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Remember that the Extraordinary Form continues to be celebrated regularly in many places, especially in the English, French and German-speaking worlds. I realize that this still quite a small number of venues, vis-a-vis the entire Catholic population of the world, but with the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest (and a few other orders) ordaining more and more priests each year, the number of traditional Latin Masses continues to grow. Several full-sized seminaries fuel this movement.
I'm not looking to open a discussion on the merits of this, or forecast its future appeal. I mention it only because its use is a normal, everyday function for those of us who attend such parishes and oratories. Many here speak of its use as something limited to the past, while there are many clerics and laymen who live it, along with associated devotions and catechesis, on an ongoing basis.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Ceremoniar, I would hope not to be speak of the pre Vatican 2 Roman rite Mass, only as something of the past.
It was something extremely important to me when I was young and I am still happy to attend such a Mass from time to time.
Although people participated in a different way from nowadays at a standard type Novus Ordo Mass, they did participate FULLY in a devotional way, even although most people did not understand every word. They did know and appreciate what was going on.
The Mass, as I described it,was the only way of celebrating Mass,as far as Roman Rite Catholics were concerned.
It was very much the priest's Mass, as he said everything,even when the choir sang.
Nowadays both clergy and laity play their active part in the celebration.
In popular forms of the Roman Missal the Canon of the Mass was often given only in the vernacular,as it was recited silently(because it was so awe inspiring),so only those who knew Latin needed to have it in Latin.
If anyone has seen the new film 'Brooklyn' it starts with an Irish priest celebrating Mass reciting out loud the prayers of the Canon of the Mass. This would most certainly not have been the case before the 1960s
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
I mentioned some entries back that in 2014 we had commissioned a new set of Advent vestments in blue. If anyone would like to have a look of them you can find it here: Anglican Communities of Our Lady
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
Will many of you be using Rose vestments this Sunday?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Our Place will doubtless field our lovely rose chasuble - alas, no matching dalmatic/tunicle.
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
The two posts above from Forthview are very, very good. A fine explanation of the positive way the Tridentine mass worked without being sentimental or antiquarian.
I hope there will be some way to preserve them when this thread goes.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Baker
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# 18458
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Posted
American Episcopalian checking in here. I worship at the cathedral church of my diocese.
We use Sarum Blue during Advent, unbleached linen during Lent.
Now I was raised Lutheran, conservative at that, and the church at which I was raised still uses purple for both Advent and Lent.
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Ad astra per aspera
Posts: 108 | From: Tottering-on-the-Brink | Registered: Aug 2015
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just for the record, I've never heard of blue in Advent in England in the last forty years.
I have a hazy recollection of blue at Exeter Cathedral some forty years ago, but I have never since come across Sarum colours.
Blue certainly isn't recommended in the C of E lectionary which sticks to purple.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
Here in the abbey church, the chasuble and dalmatic were a lovely soft rose (slightly edging toward lavender, perhaps), but the stoles for the con-celebrants were ROSE!! It was a striking shade, but extremely bold, and I'm glad that the chas and dal were not of the same fabric.
Excellent liturgy, though, complete with solemn opening of the Holy Door (we're so designated by the local archbishop).
About Holy Door(s), I'll probably start another thread.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baker:
Now I was raised Lutheran, conservative at that, and the church at which I was raised still uses purple for both Advent and Lent.
Around here, blue seems to be the norm in ELCA congregations, and this resource at the ELCA website seems to present blue as preferred. Likewise, this page at the LCMS website also seems to presume blue is the preferred color, but I'm not as familiar with what local LCMS churches actually do.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by venbede quote:
Just for the record, I've never heard of blue in Advent in England in the last forty years.
Really? Well the place where I am has never used anything else, other than rose for Laetare; we keep purple for Lent.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Live and learn.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Live and learn.
I have only ever seen it in Westminster Abbey and St Mary's Primrose Hill.
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Sarum Sleuth
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# 162
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Posted
I have been in Romsey Abbey today and frontal and vestments were both blue. Several cathedrals still use blue, Derby changing to blue from purple last year. Incidentally, Westminster Abbey uses red for Advent; the blue comes out for royal occasions. St Margaret's next door however uses blue. So the practice is not as uncommon as all that.
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Baker:
Now I was raised Lutheran, conservative at that, and the church at which I was raised still uses purple for both Advent and Lent.
Around here, blue seems to be the norm in ELCA congregations, and this resource at the ELCA website seems to present blue as preferred. Likewise, this page at the LCMS website also seems to presume blue is the preferred color, but I'm not as familiar with what local LCMS churches actually do.
My understanding is that the LCMS using blue for Advent only started up in the last 30 years or so. Many (including us) still use purple (though our host congregation uses blue).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Sacerdote
Apprentice
# 11627
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Posted
For some reason at Westminster Cathedral they always used to sing the Gospel facing about NW (liturgical NW that is.)I never knew why.
The ceremonies of Low Mass are derived from those of High Mass, so the Gospel is read facing the (liturgical) NE, ie as near North as possible, with the book on the altar, while the epistle is read facing east, as the subdeacon would do it at High Mass.
I'm not sure why the current Anglican fad of traipsing off down the centre aisle & usually directing the Gospel vaguely into the NW or SW corner of the church irritates me so, except that in practice it just doesn't work. The Gospel seems smothered down there. Better to my mind a shorter procession to a dignified raised ambo or lectern, if suitable worthily adorned, and facing the assembly.
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