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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Imagine
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Imagine no religion...
I know that the famous Lennon song is probably more of an idealistic dream than looking through the lens of reality, but it has always sat uneasily with me. I think it's because the song is considered such a holy ark; which is rather rather ironic of course. But I've often tried to imagine a world without religion as the song suggests. I know Mr Lennon was probably referring to wars, but there have been countless arguments about that; many which sometimes argue quite successfully that religion had little if anything to do with it. So, pondering a world with no religion started to leave me feeling more and more bereft the more I pondered it. So here's my take; perhaps you can add your own.
Imagine no cathedrals, no mosques, no Hindu temples or Buddhist shrines.
Imagine no classical statues, no great gold Buddha's, no western art for almost one and a half thousand years.
Imagine no suppression of women, and imagine too the suppression of women - depending on where and what you are.
Imagine no illuminated Bibles, no stunning Qoran in calligraphic mastery, no Islamic miniatures, no beautifully block printed scrolls.
Imagine no pyramids, no ancient temples no magnificent Shinto monuments.
Imagine no Islamic mathematics or engineering, no great Christian push for healing and medicine in the west, none of the amazing literature of the east.
Imagine all the music that would be lost, their themes of yearning, their resonance with the souls longing.
Just imagine....
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Imagine no Islamic mathematics or engineering, no great Christian push for healing and medicine in the west, none of the amazing literature of the east.
As far as I am aware, mathematics, engineering, medicine and literature are still going like gangbusters, even in countries where religious belief/observation is low.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Francis Spufford in his (IMHO) excellent 'Unapologetic' has a great rant about this (p11-12):
quote:
...or for a piece of famous fluffiness that doesn't just pretend about what real lives can be like, but moves on into one of the world's least convincing pretences about what people themselves are like, consider the teased an coiffed nylon monument that is 'Imagine': surely the My Little Pony of philosophical statements...imagine all the people, living life in - hello? ...I don't know about you, but in my experience peace is not the default state of human beings, any more than having an apartment the size of Joey and Chandler's is.
[ 17. October 2016, 12:06: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Francis Spufford in his (IMHO) excellent 'Unapologetic' has a great rant about this.
Brilliant book! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I dislike Lennon's song intensely, but then I also dislike Spufford's book. By gum, this is fun.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Imagine is shite, from every perspective I can view it.Poorly written and poorly thought out from a person capable of much more on both fronts.
This from a massive fan of much of his work.
Remove religion and you still have that which makes us often horrible, and occasionally wonderful, creatures.
We would still have art and creativity, but what we might lack is the focus of resource that wrought much of the world's most magnificent works art/architecture.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I dislike Lennon's song intensely, but then I also dislike Spufford's book.
And yet in polls by the BBC and HMV in the 90s 'Imagine' was apparently voted the song with the best lyrics.
The same link also highlights an interesting fact: an organisation called 'the World Church' (identified elsewhere as the World Council of Churches) liked the song so much that they requested permission to change 'Imagine no religion' to 'Imagine one religion'. Permission was refused. (The fairly liberal WWC was presumably less concerned about the appeal to imagine no heaven or hell....)
The song has even provided a clergyman at York Minster the opportunity to preach a very warm-hearted sermon about tolerance. Like the preacher, I too find the tune very pleasant, and can understand how thoughts of peace and brotherhood, etc., would appeal to many listeners, regardless of theology.
As for Spufford's book, I do appreciate it, but I suppose you could argue that the author was unnecessarily literal about 'Imagine'.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
If religion preceded agriculture, as evidence now points, then it is a far greater force within us than john Lennon or the whole of secularism ever realises.
I could, and often do, go on a rant about how fucked up religious institutions have fucked people's lives for thousands of years, but take it all away, every scrap of it? Even if were possible to completely erase religion, (the advance of secularism is pushing in that direction), I can't help but feel that empty ritual and a peculiar void will be left in it's wake.
And, as LB says above, the human potential to be horrible will still be there. Religion may have been used to try and conquer that aspect of our make up, and in far too many instances failed miserably, it did not though put it there in the first place.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The real problem with the song is unrecognised nostalgia. There's nothing to imagine via its lyrics, it's all recall.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The real problem with the song is unrecognised nostalgia. There's nothing to imagine via its lyrics, it's all recall.
Why? It seems to invite us to imagine a world without nation states, without private property, and without religion - presumably that which is above us, as opposed to only sky. Isn't that visionary? A bit like the Sermon on the Mount? Imagine - I wonder if you can? It's easy if you try.
It might be simplistic, but I don't see it as nostalgic.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My favourite hymn.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Isn't that visionary?
No, it is silly. I don't know that religion was inevitable, but nations certainly are. It is an extension of our nature, part of what humans are.
Now, one can project meaning and purpose beyond the words and claim that Lennon was using simple wording to make an indirect point, but it is projection.
The point might not be, but the words are simplistic and silly.
I wouldn't say nostalgic myself. Hippy-dippy, platitudinous, silly, etc.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
To be fair, most pop-songs have fairly 'silly' or at least superficial lyrics. People don't listen to pop hungering after deep theology or philosophy.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
'Imagine' channels the idea that we can all return to a mythical Eden where there's only sky, no countries, no religion etc etc. The only time this actually has any possible purchase on human reality is the pre-farm, pre-surplus population which must be kept in control or thrown against the neighbouring population to conquer. That's why it's nostalgia. The channelling of a nonsense golden age we could have if only; golden ages future are always predicated on past projective (mis)understanding.
There is no Walden in Lennon. Though there maybe Lenin (or rather Marx) and a lost Waldo in my understanding of this as being as hopeless as a nostalgic plea to a return to some ridiculous human natural state. Primeval. Pining for the fiords of the unattainable.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Didn't Lennon pen 'Imagine' to compete with the success of former colleague McCartney?
I never really thought of it as a secular anthem, just a bit of a nonsense lyric. It has probably occurred to most from time to time that there may indeed be no Heaven or Hell, not terribly earth shattering stuff.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've heard that John wrote it about the Irish Troubles. Puts it in a different perspective, I think.
I do have days when I sing it to myself.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This song works musically for me, but that's about it. As I have commented before on these boards, the only way I can "imagine" a world anything like the one Lennon envisions is if everybody is permanently stoned, and that begs the question of who is growing the food and where they will get the money for their next fix, especially as they all have "no possessions".
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The same link also highlights an interesting fact: an organisation called 'the World Church' (identified elsewhere as the World Council of Churches) liked the song so much that they requested permission to change 'Imagine no religion' to 'Imagine one religion'. Permission was refused. (The fairly liberal WWC was presumably less concerned about the appeal to imagine no heaven or hell....)
I'm suspicious of that "fact". From your other link, it would appear that Lennon made this claim in a Playboy interview and at first glance, I can't find any independent confirmation.
It reminds me of the "bigger than Jesus" provocation. It's egotistical and self-serving, and about as plausible as the band's claim that Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds was about a drawing by one of their kids, and not LSD.
(See also the story of Itchycoo Park by the Small Faces, from the same era. In fact it's hard to find songs from that time that aren't about drugs. My white bicycle; Horse with no name...).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
I prefer Schiller in the Ode to Joy
Seid umschlungen Millionen!
Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt!
Bruder, uber'm Sternenzelt
muss ein lieber Vater wohnen.
AFF
You millions, I embrace you.
This kiss is for all the world!
Brothers, above the starry canopy
There must dwell a loving Father.
Hmmm, it's better in the German. Goes with the choon.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This song works musically for me, but that's about it. As I have commented before on these boards, the only way I can "imagine" a world anything like the one Lennon envisions is if everybody is permanently stoned, and that begs the question of who is growing the food and where they will get the money for their next fix, especially as they all have "no possessions".
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The same link also highlights an interesting fact: an organisation called 'the World Church' (identified elsewhere as the World Council of Churches) liked the song so much that they requested permission to change 'Imagine no religion' to 'Imagine one religion'. Permission was refused. (The fairly liberal WWC was presumably less concerned about the appeal to imagine no heaven or hell....)
I'm suspicious of that "fact". From your other link, it would appear that Lennon made this claim in a Playboy interview and at first glance, I can't find any independent confirmation.
Where would one look for independent confirmation, I wonder? It's probably not something that the WCC would keep on its website, especially since permission was refused. Maybe there's a copy of a letter somewhere deep in someone's archives.
The exact words John Lennon used in the interview were apparently these (scroll down). They don't suggest that he was just having a 'laff' at his interviewer's expense, but I suppose one might study the thinking and trends within the WCC at the time to judge whether or not it was likely.
FWIW, googling suggests that the story is taken at face value in at least one academic book. As for the song, it seems to have been considered with a degree of broad-mindedness on a number of Christian websites and in sermons. And Liverpool Cathedral even allowed it to be played on the church bells!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Where would one look for independent confirmation, I wonder? It's probably not something that the WCC would keep on its website, especially since permission was refused. Maybe there's a copy of a letter somewhere deep in someone's archives.
You seem to be intent on impugning the WCC despite reporting that
quote:
The exact words John Lennon used in the interview were apparently these
quote:
the World Church called me once and asked, “Can we use the lyrics to ‘Imagine’ and just change it to ‘Imagine one religion’?”
What's this got to do with the WCC? And do you realy, um, imagine any serious organisation asking Lennon permission to alter and then use a copyrighted work simply by ringing him up (and besides, how would they go about doing that)?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm surprised you think I was 'impugning' the WCC. That would mean I've accused them of lying or somehow being particularly deficient. I don't think I have really, but in any case, in my posts above I've been fairly positive about Christians making use of 'Imagine' so why would I condemn the WCC for allegedly wanting to adapt and use it?
I don't understand why a simple phone call couldn't have been made to Lennon, or to his record company, to broach the issue. Any further discussion or agreement would have taken place by letter, but it's probably correct to assume that the idea wouldn't have got that far.
With regard to Lennon's interview, I was thinking in particular of what he said about the prayer that Dick Gregory had given him. This suggested to me that the song was the result of a certain degree of careful reflection, and that he therefore wouldn't be inclined to make up frivolous stories about requests from religious organisations.
Of course, if the WCC has publicly rejected Lennon's claims then that puts another slant on things.
[ 18. October 2016, 11:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm surprised you think I was 'impugning' the WCC. That would mean I've accused them of lying or somehow being particularly deficient.
Impugn: quote:
dispute the truth, validity, or honesty of (a statement or motive); call into question.
To the extent that you have brought the WCC into this at all, attributing actions to them that Lennon attributed to another body (the 'World Church'), and attributing motives to their actions, on no more basis than misquoting so far as I can see, I think it's fair to say you're impugning them, and continuing to do so.
quote:
Of course, if the WCC has publicly rejected Lennon's claims then that puts another slant on things.
Why on earth would they reject a claim he apparently never made about them in the first place?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
To the extent that you have brought the WCC into this at all, attributing actions to them that Lennon attributed to another body (the 'World Church'), and attributing motives to their actions, on no more basis than misquoting so far as I can see, I think it's fair to say you're impugning them, and continuing to do so.
Oh, I see.
If you read my first post again you'll see that I added in brackets that the 'World Church' was 'identified elsewhere as the World Council of Churches'. The claim wasn't my own. In fact, I made a deliberate effort to look for this information, because I've never heard of any organisation called 'the World Church'.
It's the York Minster preacher in my second link who attributes the request to the World Council of Churches. I presumed that a clergy person working in such an esteemed location would be far more likely to know the truth than my pew-dwelling self, but perhaps not!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In my experience Christian ministers are notoriously bad at fact-checking, and indeed this has been the case of disciples of Jesus in general since at least New Testament times.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
The "no religion" line has grated on me, but then it depends on how you define "religion." I think of the new heaven and earth in Revelation:
I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. (Rev. 21:22-3)
If religion is a search for God and for truth, then in this vision there is no need for religion because we have an unmediated relationship with God and all truth has been revealed. Or, as Jeremiah 31 puts it, "No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me."
In no way am I suggesting John Lennon was thinking along these lines, but inasmuch as "Imagine" resembles these visions of a new world of peace and joy I can appreciate it.
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Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Given that he claimed to be agnostic, expressly said he was not Christian and didn't believe in Jesus, I think it is safe to say he did not mean his words in the way that makes you feel comfortable.
Though he called himself "spiritual" and not anti-religious, he did not seem to think that organised religion was a good thing.
Whilst I think it naive and simplistic to think getting rid of religion would bring peace, it is not an unreasonable view to think that. Religion [i[has[/i] been used as a focus for heinous acts. Anything that can be so used is dangerous, but that isn't limited to religion.
But the damning thing about some religions, Christianity included, is that they do not prevent horrible things by their adherents.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Wikipedia has more on "Imagine" than most people would ever want to know!
E.g., Yoko was responsible for a lot of it, and John was too much of a jerk*, at the time, to give her credit.
*(Paraphrase of his quote in the "Composition" section, but he did own what he did.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
It seems to invite us to imagine a world without nation states
I'd say rather a world without nationalism. Nothing to kill or die for... In context it's country as something to fight for rather than country as such that the song suggests we'd be better off without.
I don't know offhand if English has a word that is to religion as nationalism is to country.
Jihadism ?
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
The English equivalent is surely crusade, though I may need to give my sarcasmometer a good tap...
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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