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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anglican Church is the worship of Britishness
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the long ranger
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# 17109
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Posted
I was reading a fairly dull prize-winning novel at the weekend - but was struck by this idea that the Anglican church was less about worshipping a deity and more about worshipping British culture - parish life, village greens, cricket and warm beer. I was thinking this is a grotesque parody of the reality of Britishness - who actually likes warm beer these days?
But then I was also thinking that there is something about organised religion and the intersection of nationalism which seems particularly strong in the UK. And that this trend is not solely found in the Anglican church, many different styles of religion seem to reflect different aspects of Britishness and culture.
Sometimes it is overt. Remembrance Day, for example. Sometimes it is a more subtle retelling of a national narrative which is harder to pin down, but involves old ladies spending money on elaborate flower arrangements, large booming musical instruments and correct postures.
Is there something about the way the British do religion, or is it reflected in every culture?
[ 06. June 2012, 20:38: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
Surely every culture does religion with it's own flavour?
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Well, I'm sure that is true. I guess I'm wondering if we Brits have become unable to see the difference between religion and nationalism, the extent that we confuse one with the other.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
It came pretty close over here last Sunday. My parish church flew the Union Jack, prayed for HM in the collect, and we sung GSTQ at the end of the service.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I was reading a fairly dull prize-winning novel at the weekend - but was struck by this idea that the Anglican church was less about worshipping a deity and more about worshipping British culture - parish life, village greens, cricket and warm beer. I was thinking this is a grotesque parody of the reality of Britishness - who actually likes warm beer these days?
But then I was also thinking that there is something about organised religion and the intersection of nationalism which seems particularly strong in the UK. And that this trend is not solely found in the Anglican church, many different styles of religion seem to reflect different aspects of Britishness and culture.
Sometimes it is overt. Remembrance Day, for example. Sometimes it is a more subtle retelling of a national narrative which is harder to pin down, but involves old ladies spending money on elaborate flower arrangements, large booming musical instruments and correct postures.
Is there something about the way the British do religion, or is it reflected in every culture?
If you turn on your telly right now you will be able to see the Supreme Governor of the Church of England arrive at St Pauls for a service of thanksgiving for her diamond jubilee.
If you do turn on the telly you will be one of millions of British people, christians, members of other faiths and none, who will watch an Anglican church service, hear hymns and listen to a sermon by the Archbishop of Canterbury. For many,it may be the first sermon they've heard since last years royal wedding.
It's not how the British always "do religion" - perhaps it's more about the how the established church (in part of Britain) "does Britishness."
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
anne, I don't think that is entirely fair. The Jubilee is not led by the Established Church as much as the Establishment, of which the Church is a privileged part. I have a hard time believing this would happen in the Netherlands.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Well we did sing GSTQ - after the service had ended.
However our emphasis was on living in a country where we are free to worship in public, are free to be a royalist or be free to say I am not a royalist. Without fear or favour.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
I'm struggling to grasp why embeddedness in local culture should be an issue for an incarnational faith?
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Well, I'm sure that is true. I guess I'm wondering if we Brits have become unable to see the difference between religion and nationalism, the extent that we confuse one with the other.
The diamond jubilee service would be proof of this, I'd say.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I find it quite possible to be an Anglican in Britain without having to be either a nationalist or a monarchist. The church is what it always was: part of one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, but with practices adapated to local needs.
Certainly the establishment of the church, particularly in England, has meant that cultural Christianity has tended to accrete around Anglicanism instead of other denominations, but that doesn't tell you anything about Anglicanism itself. The Church of Scotland (where we were also subjected to GSTQ after the service on Sunday) has a lot of the same in Scotland, and the Roman Catholic church in Ireland.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
I'm struggling to grasp why embeddedness in local culture should be an issue for an incarnational faith?
There is a big difference in being 'embedded with' and actually worshipping the culture.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I am reminded of this. (The Youtube videos no longer show in the UK, hence this link. Just get beyond the 30-second advert and you'll be fine.)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
...who actually likes warm beer these days?
Me, for one, and most of those who turned up at The Compasses for beer festival this weekend, I would guess.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
...who actually likes warm beer these days?
Me, for one, and most of those who turned up at The Compasses for beer festival this weekend, I would guess.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
OK, I am willing to accept the rebuke that some people like warm beer. I am not going to accept that it is a majority of beer-drinking Brits, though.
Hence if it is a worship of Britishness, it is of an idealised fictional Britain.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
OK, I am willing to accept the rebuke that some people like warm beer. I am not going to accept that it is a majority of beer-drinking Brits, though.
Hence if it is a worship of Britishness, it is of an idealised fictional Britain.
Since the majority of beer drinking Brits drink "bloody lager" - as it is called in this house - their preferences can be discounted.
I agree with the premise of your OP, though.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
There is a big difference in being 'embedded with' and actually worshipping the culture.
While I am sure it's true that there are some Anglicans who "worship the culture", I find it difficult to accept that we can make such a generalisation about the Anglican Church per se. I speak as an Anglican.
I would say that, if anything, it's more about affirming the particular sub-culture associated with that particular parish. I belong to an Anglican Church that would be called "middle-of-the-road" - i.e. traditional, Bible believing in a low-key non-fundie way, eucharistic (meaning we celebrate the eucharist every week, which is what attracted me to the church, given that I regard the eucharist as the central Christian act of worship), but not really Anglo-Catholic. Of course, the style of the service is a bit "stiff upper lip", but that would be true of any obviously traditional church anywhere in the world.
I have been involved with two other Anglican churches in the past - one was more evangelical in the "Reform" mould ('fraid not my kind of evangelicalism), and the other was evangelical cum soft (Jungian inspired) charismaticism with a good dollop of good ol' middle class champagne socialism. Both these churches drew on different aspects of British sub-cultures.
The fact is that churches which are attended by British people will be "British". What do you expect?
Your argument would make a lot of sense, if it could be shown that this interrelationship between church and culture was not true (to the same extent) in other countries. But clearly it is. Surely we can see that certain forms of evangelicalism / fundamentalism in the USA seem to be a "worship" of a certain kind of American culture. To paraphrase Revelation 4:10 (re "casting their crowns before the throne") - would such Christians really be prepared to cast the Stars and Stripes down before the Cross of Christ? From attitudes I have seen, I am not so sure.
So give the Anglican Church a break. It's a mess, because freedom is a mess. And people will bring their cultural baggage to church, because that is who we are. Everybody does it. It's just that some churches may be able to hide it, and pretend that their particular culture is really more "spiritual" (or more authentically "New Testament") than others. It isn't.
(Talking about worshipping a culture: I remember once going to a local restorationist church, which met in a school hall. It seemed to me that anyone who turned up in a suit and tie would be regarded as very "bound up". Bermuda shorts were the order of the day. Apparently they're more spiritual!! Clearly this church involved a glorification of "the culture of informality", which is, of course, nothing more than a psychological reaction against "Old Church". Gimme a break!)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The fact is that churches which are attended by British people will be "British". What do you expect?
It isn't so much that they are 'British' cultural activities but that they're actually being worshipped in a Christian church.
And I thought I'd made it fairly clear that I'm not only talking about British Anglican churches.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Your argument would make a lot of sense, if it could be shown that this interrelationship between church and culture was not true (to the same extent) in other countries. But clearly it is. Surely we can see that certain forms of evangelicalism / fundamentalism in the USA seem to be a "worship" of a certain kind of American culture. To paraphrase Revelation 4:10 (re "casting their crowns before the throne") - would such Christians really be prepared to cast the Stars and Stripes down before the Cross of Christ? From attitudes I have seen, I am not so sure.
Also about this - you should try talking to people about taking down military standards in Anglican churches. I don't think there is a material difference in your description of USAmerican churches and the reality in many/most Anglican churches in the UK.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I have a hard time believing this would happen in the Netherlands.
For better or worse, this is not the Netherlands. And you need to establish why there should be a problem with fondness for local culture being included in the way people express their faith.
The point about being incarnational has to do with God becoming one with all of humanity's life and experience. For some of it, we have to repent; for others, we are allowed to be glad in him.
I think what lies at the core of my aversion to your OP is that it lacks the generosity I would like to aspire to when looking at people's faith. Why should they not see God in warm beer as much as I might see God on a mountain-top? And why should they not relate that experience to God's presence in a crucified and risen Christ?
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
For better or worse, this is not the Netherlands. And you need to establish why there should be a problem with fondness for local culture being included in the way people express their faith.
The problem is when the 'fondness' spills into worship. I think I have been fairly clear about this, to be honest with you.
quote:
The point about being incarnational has to do with God becoming one with all of humanity's life and experience. For some of it, we have to repent; for others, we are allowed to be glad in him.
I think any time we replace worship of God with worship of anything else, we need to repent. End of story.
quote:
I think what lies at the core of my aversion to your OP is that it lacks the generosity I would like to aspire to when looking at people's faith. Why should they not see God in warm beer as much as I might see God on a mountain-top? And why should they not relate that experience to God's presence in a crucified and risen Christ?
Hard cheese. I'm not as generous as you are of idolatory. How is that an argument?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Hard cheese. I'm not as generous as you are of idolatory. How is that an argument?
Clearly you have decided your own limits for God and God's presence in people's lives. If you have already decided that the matters you describe in your OP are idolatrous, then you are making a circular argument; if you don't want to listen to an alternative view - that's fine.
Now that's clear, I'll get on with my idolatrous life... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
So, tlr, why don't we just get on with disdaining your lack of generosity regarding "idolatry" and allow you to get on with disdaining the (large number of) people who appear to enjoy a bit of pomp and circumstance?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
...prayed for HM in the collect...
You DIDN'T???!!! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Really, I am utterly horrified!! You must have BNP members in your midst!
Seriously, the Russian Orthodox Church (and Greek etc.) in the UK, pray for our Queen in EVERY service. Not because we are nationalists, but because it is our christian obligation.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
...having said that, some of the Anglican churches I have experienced in the past hardly ever pray for the Queen, and the clergy turn out to be (no kidding) anti-royalist marxist revolutionaries! (I may be able to supply the long ranger with some contacts if he's interested.)
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Mark Betts -
First piss off.
Second, I am not a marxist revolutionary.
Do you have anything to contribute to this discussion or is thought beyond your feeble mental abilities?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Your argument would make a lot of sense, if it could be shown that this interrelationship between church and culture was not true (to the same extent) in other countries. But clearly it is. Surely we can see that certain forms of evangelicalism / fundamentalism in the USA seem to be a "worship" of a certain kind of American culture. To paraphrase Revelation 4:10 (re "casting their crowns before the throne") - would such Christians really be prepared to cast the Stars and Stripes down before the Cross of Christ? From attitudes I have seen, I am not so sure.
Also about this - you should try talking to people about taking down military standards in Anglican churches. I don't think there is a material difference in your description of USAmerican churches and the reality in many/most Anglican churches in the UK.
Errm... I was actually applying Revelation 4:10 metaphorically.
As in... jingoistic attitudes being sacrificed for the sake of the gospel.
I must admit that when I attend my church, I am not overwhelmed by a desire to look down on other nations or cultures. Nor am I encouraged to do so. In fact, not once in the many years I have been attending Anglican Churches has any such idea been even remotely insinuated (quite the opposite, in fact).
So I think your references to "nationalism" and "idolatry" are completely unwarranted.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Is there something about the way the British do religion, or is it reflected in every culture?
In the United States, there is what Robert Bellah has called Civil Religion in America. In this 1966 essay, he differentiates between "civil religion" and "church religion".
I think it could be argued (and I'm not familiar enough with his later work to say whether Bellah himself argues) that civil and church religion in the United States have converged over the past 40 or so years. We see this in the increasing politicization of religious conservatives following Roe v. Wade in 1973 to the situation today, where in some circles faith is virtually indistinguishable from toeing the Republican party line.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Has anybody noticed that the title of this thread can be sung to 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Alogon - CHEERS! Was at a wedding reception yesterday. Nightmare. Bloody KEGGY WEGGY! Until I found three bottles of Doom Bar. Splendid.
Mark Betts - God bless YOU !
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Mark Betts -
First piss off.
Second, I am not a marxist revolutionary.
Do you have anything to contribute to this discussion or is thought beyond your feeble mental abilities?
Thanks - I hope you have a nice day as well! Let me put it this way - In my experience, many inner city Anglican churches are the exact opposite to the way you have portrayed them, although the clergy smile sweetly for photos if there happens to be a royal visit. I don't like the hypocracy any more than you do, but I can assure you that is my experiece.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Where is the hypocrisy in being courteous to a visitor, whatever one thinks of his/her status?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Where is the hypocrisy in being courteous to a visitor, whatever one thinks of his/her status?
Well, he portrayed the C of E in the way we see it in the media, rather than the state of how it really is in reality. I'm sorry the long ranger if I misunderstood you, I honestly thought the things which I'd seen were how you wanted things to be.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We don't worship the culture, we worship through our culture. The CofE is under pressure these days to be more like African culture (free and easy, swing along to the music), which may suit many extroverts. But the British traditional way of worshipping is more suited to the style of introverts, who still make up a significant part of our culture, despite the pressure to make us more Mediterranean or African in style.
You only need to see the distress when an extrovert leader takes over a church full of mostly introvert worshippers to see a clash of cultures and an increase in the level of stress.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I was thinking this is a grotesque parody of the reality of Britishness - who actually likes warm beer these days?
Me. And a few million other people. (For values of "warm" between maybe 5 and 15 C)
There may well be Anglican churches that work the way you describe. But then we live in a city, and we don't have a village green. Admittedly our curate does play cricket, very, very well, but then he's not British...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
We don't worship the culture, we worship through our culture. The CofE is under pressure these days to be more like African culture (free and easy, swing along to the music), which may suit many extroverts. But the British traditional way of worshipping is more suited to the style of introverts, who still make up a significant part of our culture, despite the pressure to make us more Mediterranean or African in style.
It is very much a cultural thing isn't it? Coming from a culture (Irish) which tends to be noticeably more informal, open and extrovert, I'll cheerfully admit that traditional parish Anglicanism would suck the life out of me (give me the Africans anyday ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ). I think the charismatic movement within the British churches could be understood partly as a rebellion against a particular type of Englishness, which to some extent reflects a shift towards greatly informality and emotion in the wider culture.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
What's with this "warm beer" bollocks? The whole idea is a social construct, dreamt up by countries whose own beers are so lamentably poor (you know who you are) they can only be drunk if frozen to buggery. Beers are supposed to be stored in a cellar, and mysteriously, often still are. That puts them several degrees below room temperature, or 12C on average for the UK.
Now carry on...
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
a particular type of Englishness,
is what it is. There's no shortage of extrovert behaviour outside the stiff-upper-lip middle classes and cap-doffing lower orders. As an introvert myself I shy away from the happy-clappy in church, and similar secular contexts, but I don't pretend it's inferior to more restrained behaviour.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I was reading a fairly dull prize-winning novel at the weekend - but was struck by this idea that the Anglican church was less about worshipping a deity and more about worshipping British culture - parish life, village greens, cricket and warm beer. I was thinking this is a grotesque parody of the reality of Britishness - who actually likes warm beer these days?
But then I was also thinking that there is something about organised religion and the intersection of nationalism which seems particularly strong in the UK. And that this trend is not solely found in the Anglican church, many different styles of religion seem to reflect different aspects of Britishness and culture.
Sometimes it is overt. Remembrance Day, for example. Sometimes it is a more subtle retelling of a national narrative which is harder to pin down, but involves old ladies spending money on elaborate flower arrangements, large booming musical instruments and correct postures.
Is there something about the way the British do religion, or is it reflected in every culture?
There's something about the particular flavor of American evangelicalism (especially that of the Baptists) which gets wrapped up with a narrow stereotypical Americana. Whenever you see "Middle America" in documentaries or right-wing populist propaganda, they don't show the Catholic parish or the big Gothic Episcopal building downtown; they show the little wooden chapel out in the fields.
That particular flavor of religion correlates strongly today with the Republican Party and with a certain brand of (White) American nationalism. It's a much more "patriotic" brand of Christianity that gets mingled with the idea of what it means to be a real "American." Every major Republican candidate panders overtly to this tradition, and many Southern Democrats at least pay it lip-service.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
What's with this "warm beer" bollocks? The whole idea is a social construct, dreamt up by countries whose own beers are so lamentably poor (you know who you are) they can only be drunk if frozen to buggery. Beers are supposed to be stored in a cellar, and mysteriously, often still are. That puts them several degrees below room temperature, or 12C on average for the UK.
Now carry on...
Would "tepid beer" suffice?
My complaint about beer in the UK is not the temperature, but the relative flatness and the weird flavors that sometimes crop up (but that could be due more to dirty tap equipment at the bars I went to than to the brewers).
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Well, our beers are mostly session beers, so they are not supposed to be stuffed full of CO2 which makes you bloat and fart. Though it does sound like you may have got some faulty beers there for which I can only (vicariously) apologise. But perhaps I should bow out of this tangent before I try too many people's patience.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
?My complaint about beer in the UK is not the temperature, but the relative flatness and the weird flavors that sometimes crop up (but that could be due more to dirty tap equipment at the bars I went to than to the brewers).
You mean that it isn't fizzy piss-water that tastes like it was invented in a laboratory. (I am in no way approving of badly kept ale - the purveyors of which should be tarred and feathered IMNSHO).
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
?My complaint about beer in the UK is not the temperature, but the relative flatness and the weird flavors that sometimes crop up (but that could be due more to dirty tap equipment at the bars I went to than to the brewers).
You mean that it isn't fizzy piss-water that tastes like it was invented in a laboratory. (I am in no way approving of badly kept ale - the purveyors of which should be tarred and feathered IMNSHO).
I'm with you that Standard American Light Beer is garbage... an Indian-British friend of mine in college described "American beer" as a "mildly alcoholic soda." But there are plenty of good beers in the U.S. outside of the old suspects which have good flavor AND a decent head.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
I took great pleasure yesterday in crowning a splendid Diamond Jubilee Thanksgiving Service with a pint of Leeds Jubilee IPA - just at the right temperature.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Clearly the essence of Britishness is the consumption of beer at the correct temperature. It's useful that future generations yet to come should know this, lest they be drawn into the ways of wickedness and iniquity.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
[T]he Anglican church was less about worshipping a deity and more about worshipping British culture - parish life, village greens, cricket and warm beer. I was thinking this is a grotesque parody of the reality of Britishness - who actually likes warm beer these days?
But then I was also thinking that there is something about organised religion and the intersection of nationalism which seems particularly strong in the UK. And that this trend is not solely found in the Anglican church, many different styles of religion seem to reflect different aspects of Britishness and culture.
[...]
Is there something about the way the British do religion, or is it reflected in every culture?
The dominant British church culture these days tends to be middle class, and I would assert that Britishness is also dominated by middle class values and experiences. (One might say that working class culture is a sort of subculture of Britishness, but it doesn't seem to hold equal place with ideas about middle class culture.) So it's perhaps unsurprising that church culture seems to be about promoting Britishness.
I think that over time the historical non-conformist churches have become closer to the CofE, theologically, culturally and ecumenically, so they would experience similar phenomena. (The new churches might be more ambivalent, especially if they're heavily influenced by American Christianity.)
And then, despite the British history of founding new denominations, and of periodical revivals, the typical British attitude towards religion is rather low-key and restrained. Getting openly enthusiastic about cultural or patriotic events is acceptable in a way that open enthusiasm about God isn't quite, even for churchgoers. Even British street preachers, although evangelical by definition, have a certain restrained quality about them. (The ones with ethnic minority origins seem somewhat livelier, which makes my point.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Has anybody noticed that the title of this thread can be sung to 'O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'?
That's actually pretty wonderful...and no, I hadn't noticed it until you mentioned it.
If you could come up with a few more lines (or a whole verse) it might be the best thing to come out of this thread!
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
What's with this "warm beer" bollocks?
Its what some sad lager drinkers call real beer. As I said, best between about 5 & 15 degrees.
And Mr Mockingale should stop mocking good ale if he knows what's good for him!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
What's with this "warm beer" bollocks?
Its what some sad lager drinkers call real beer. As I said, best between about 5 & 15 degrees.
And Mr Mockingale should stop mocking good ale if he knows what's good for him!
Tell you what - next time I'm in England you can introduce me to the good stuff, so that I might in the fullness of time come to know that true Anglican faith. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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