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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Presbyterians and Ash Wednesday
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
What do other Presbyterians do on Ash Wednesday?
We have an enthusiastic church member, not Presbyterian by upbringing, who wants to introduce ash crosses on our foreheads this year.
This would be a lay-led service, i.e. led by her. I got an e-mail this morning asking me to help lead it.
I have not come across this in a Presbyterian service before. I'm not against in in theory, and I'd be happy to participate in somebody else's church, should I find myself elsewhere on Ash Wednesday, I just find the idea odd in my own church.
(We are a parish church in an area where a lot of people have moved in in connection with the oil industry, so we're Presbyterian-lite anyway. The same person set up a temporary stations-of-the-cross at Easter couple of years ago, but apparently I was the only person who twigged to what they were, so that rather went under the radar.) (Or at least I was the only person who went ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) -is that what I think it is? Other people may have been studiously ignoring.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Hm - I would check carefully with the minister before agreeing to help. They may or may not be aware of what this person is planning, or of the details. In the Church of Scotland, the Kirk Session is responsible for the time and place of ALL services, and the minister is directly responsible for the conduct and content of worship. Has the Kirk Session agreed to this service? Has the minister agreed to devolve responsibility on this occasion?
Having said that, Ash Wednesday, and Lent in general, are only fairly recently on the Kirk's horizon, coinciding with the 20th century re-discovery of the value of the liturgical year. There is no Ash Wednesday rubric in Common Order, though I note that the PCUSA (always higher than us) has such a rubric, in which the imposition of ashes is offered as an option. I love an Anglican Ash Wednesday service myself, but like you, I would be wary of 'copying' it without fully understanding it. For example, is it appropriate for a lay person to lead the service and impose the ashes? I don't know. If the service is to go ahead, might I suggest having a look at the PCUSA Book of Common Worship rubric. At least this would be authentically Presbyterian. Have a look here - scroll down to p.221.
On balance, as a minister, I would be inclined to do a serious and meaningful Ash Wednesday devotion without actual ashes being involved. If there were an Episcopal church in the neighbourhood, this might be an excellent opportunity for some ecumenical sharing. But I would not be happy with the enthusiastic church member instigating and leading a service without considerable oversight from myself.
)But the Stations of the Cross, now - I have no problem with these at all! I wouldn't necessarily organise a whole service around them, but would happily make them part of a labyrinth or Holy Week meditation.)
But it seems to me there is a wider issue here. I have encountered it several times before, where people, usually from an Anglican background, move to Scotland and join their parish church, not realising quite how much the tradition differs. Accommodations can be made, and a sensitive minister will make them. But no matter how much a person misses their accustomed ways of doing things, they cannot simply recreate an Anglican church in a Presbyterian one. The lady may need someone to sit down with her and talk this over.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Presbyterians distributing ashes. What an age we live in!
The Presbyterian Church, USA website has plenty of stuff for the day, including an order of service to download.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks, Cottontail! Exactly the sort of thoughtful input I was looking for. The Ship is a wonderful place! This has been on the calendar for quite some time as the church being open for quiet reflection on Ash Wednesday evening, with readings and subdued music (from a CD, rather than live music). We've done these before at different times. The ones I've been at usually attract about two dozen people. I've done a reading before - it's all very low key and though it isn't exactly to my taste, I have no objection.
I don't know if, technically, you'd call it a service.
Then this morning I get an e-mail asking me to read over the schedule with a view to volunteering for something (presumably one of the two readings which I'd be happy to do), and the schedule includes: explanation of ashing, ashing round circle of people with music, saying together "Today I receive the mark of the cross" and quiet meditation with candles!!!
The e-mail went to 6 potential volunteers, but not the minister. No idea if he knows anything beyond the "quiet time with readings and music" on Ash Wednesday. I am sure the Session knows about the "quiet time" but knows nothing about the ashes.
Would it make a difference if it wasn't, technically, a service? Although I said "service" in my OP, I'm not sure what counts as a service.
[ 06. February 2013, 11:47: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I'm not quite sure myself where the line falls between a 'service' and 'not a service'! But this looks like a service to me, in that it has a 'leader', a schedule/order of service, a liturgy, public reading from the Bible, and someone leading in prayer. Moreover, it is in the church building, so under the minister's direct jurisdiction.
If I were you, I would have a quiet word with the minister. If s/he's on board, then there is no reason why you shouldn't take part. But regardless, if you are uncomfortable with the whole thing, then you shouldn't feel any obligation to be involved. It should be an occasion for worship, not for anxiety.
[ 06. February 2013, 12:36: Message edited by: Cottontail ]
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
There's no public reading from the Bible. The "readings" are "Thought of the Day" type readings. TBH, I find the readings a bit twee, but that's me.
The prayer is open prayer, though usually the organiser starts and finishes. Then we all say the blessing together.
The whole thing takes 30ish mins, then coffee. It's advertised as something where you can be in and out of church in an hour.
It's not up on the church website's "forthcoming events" yet, and it wasn't in last week's intimations, so I don't know how it will be described.
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
Okay, then - not a service! Sort of. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
Fascinating. When I went to non-denominational schools (ie Protestant) in the 70's the chaplain was always CofS and there was never the slightest hint of liturgical seasons. Since Calvinism asserts Sola Scriptura I would suggest that you focus on Biblically inspired themes of fasting and penitence. quote:
24 Heart whispers, The Lord is my portion; I will trust him yet.
25 In him be thy trust, for him thy heart’s longing, gracious thou shalt find him;
26 If deliverance thou wouldst have from the Lord, in silence await it.
27 It is well thou shouldst learn to bear the yoke, now in thy youth,
28 Just burden, in solitude and silence justly borne.
29 Joy may yet be thine, for mouth that kisses the dust,
30 Jeering of the multitude, and cheek buffeted in scorn, bravely endured.
31 Know for certain, the Lord has not finally abandoned thee;
32 Kind welcome the outcast shall have, from one so rich in kindness.
33 Kin of Adam he will not crush or cast away wantonly;
Lamentations 3
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
[del]
But it seems to me there is a wider issue here. I have encountered it several times before, where people, usually from an Anglican background, move to Scotland and join their parish church, not realising quite how much the tradition differs.
[del]
A bit tangential, but there must be many of us on both sides of the Border who are basically C of X -- that is we're "presbyterian" or "anglican" accidentally and not substantially, and so don't mind nudging the tradition a bit one way or another.
I wish I could remember the Scots minister's catalogue of categories prior (for him) to being a presbyterian. Christian, catholic, reformed, paedobaptist, calvinist, ...
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Firstly it must be fine for a lay person to impose ashes just not preferred. I have been the person who imposed ashes on the cleric at an ecumenical Ash Wednesday service.
It is one of the few services I really make an effort to go to. There is something healing about it. I started to think what I would do if I was organising such a service. Firstly it can not be Eucharistic, which is what the Episcopalians and such would have but to be that you need both minister and sermon. So what you have instead is a communal act of forgiveness and rededication.
If I was involved in a lay form of this, I would do somethin like this:
- A statement about the purpose of Ash Wednesday service, having looked at the one in PCUSA, I actually prefer the present CofE one which sets it as a custom that has developed. That of course reads differently in a Reformed church to an Episcopalian but in a way that feels honest.
- A hymns I would tend to pick up the theme of discipleship rather thhan repentance. So maybe</font>
- I want to walk with Jesus Christ
- No more my God I boast no more (Isaac Watts LM)
- Just as I am
Insist on at least one Bible reading. If she objects remind her you are CofS and that the people coming have the right to expect a Biblical warrant for it. I would suggest Matthew 6:1-21.A time of quietMetrical version of Psalm 51. There is a twentieth century version in R&S paraphrased by I.R. Pitt Watson in 10:10:10:10 and is number 64 in CH3. There are others.An act of penitence and forgiveness based on the Iona form which is more reciprocal than the standard form. It is on page 100 in "The Pattern of our Days" by Kathy Galloway. You will find it elsewhere as it is widely used. I expect it is in all Iona Worship books.A simple statement of Faith that all can participate inSimilarly I would have the ashing passed from hand to hand not solely done by the celebrantFinal prayer and Lord's prayerYou could finish with the rousing hymn
Forth in thy name O Christ I go
That should happen in about half an hour as there is no eucharist. It has strong Reformed elements in it. The moving of the forgiveness to being communal is partly this but also the use of singing to develop congregational participation.
Jengie
[ 07. February 2013, 12:47: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Interesting foot note but there is something fairly similar to Lent in the preparation time during Communion season. So services of penitence and rededication were part of the Scottish scene. It is just putting them into the liturgical year that is odd. They of course are also the origin of Revivalist Tent meetings.
Jengie
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
Rsther strange to hear that members of the Church of England are not aware that their sister church just across the border is the Scottish Episcopal Church and not the Church of Scotland.
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Robert Kennedy
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by Utrech Catholic:
Rsther strange to hear that members of the Church of England are not aware that their sister church just across the border is the Scottish Episcopal Church and not the Church of Scotland.
Oh, some of us are! It's why I'm now a piskie.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Oh it works both ways, there are Scots who do not realise the CofE is not Presbyterian. Some of them go to their local parish church once, get a shock and do not darken any churches doors again!
On the other hand there are Scottish Episcopalians who do much the same sort of thing in their local URC!
Jengie
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
but there must be many of us on both sides of the Border who are basically C of X -- that is we're "presbyterian" or "anglican" accidentally and not substantially, and so don't mind nudging the tradition a bit one way or another.
I don't mind nudging, though my preference is to nudge towards "more Presbyterian." It it weren't for the attitude towards various Dead Horse topics, I might well be Free Church; attending a Free Church service on holiday is a bit of a guilty pleasure.
When on holiday, or visiting friends, I've attended C of E, Roman Catholic and Methodist services, indeed I have a Methodist god-son.
But I've never been "ashed" before and doing it in my own church is out of my comfort zone.
I've decided the easiest thing is just to not go. I don't want to hurt the feelings, or squash the enthusiasm of the person who's running this. She puts a lot of her time, considerable talents, and money into our church.
I'm just glad that I was sent the running order in the hope that I would play a role, and have thus had an opportunity to avoid it! There's no Bible reading, indeed no mention of scripture at all that I can see, unless that's going to happen during the ashing.
North-East Quine, becoming a proper crabbit, ill-fashit, contermatious Presbyterian.
ETA - do I need to provide translations? Crabbit - short-tempered. Ill-fashit - bad-tempered. Contermatious - argumentative.
[ 07. February 2013, 15:08: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'm just glad that I was sent the running order in the hope that I would play a role, and have thus had an opportunity to avoid it! There's no Bible reading, indeed no mention of scripture at all that I can see, unless that's going to happen during the ashing.
This worries me because it implies that others attending might not be aware of it being an ashing service when they arrive. This is not something I would spring on my home congregation without a clear explanation. It is quite something to go through that act publicly in front of others. It will invoke idea of mourning and repentance at the very least. These are not emotions people are always comfortable expressing publicly. I would want people to have some idea what they were coming to before hand.
Equally it is not an simple symbolic guesture, there are too many wrong interpretations that can happen, including the sectarian. Acts which people will accept when given time to think about them can stick in the gut when sprung on them. I note that both Common Worship, (I am pretty sure Methodist Worship and PCUSA) rites all have explanations at the start and I assume this is why. I would also expect information in any notice, such as a simple statement that the service will involve the act of ashing.
Personally I certainly would not want to turn up to a monthly fellowship service and find it was a service include ashing and I appreciate the service. My problem would be that it did not give me time to prepare.
Jengie
[ 07. February 2013, 15:48: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It's not up on the church website "Forthcoming Events" yet, and it wasn't in last Sunday's intimations. So I don't yet know how it's going to be advertised. I can't say yet they're not going to give advance notice of the ashing.
I've been cc'ed into another e-mail from someone volunteering to take a role, and she does refer to it as "the service" but English isn't her first language, so I'll assume that by the "service" she means the "not-quite-a-service-not-exactly."
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Somebody in your congregation has oversight for worship (or worship-like events) and should be contacted immediately. "Just making something up" is inappropriate for anybody, be they lay volunteer, elder, or pastor. You just don't go importing unfamiliar customs and liturgy into a congregation without proper oversight and appropriate agreements. It causes no end of fights.
In particular the ashing thing--this reminds me of the time my future husband and I went to an Ash Wednesday service with optional ashing and he had previously had no notion of what was going to happen. Being snakebelly low in his background at the time, he went into a three-day tantrum on how what we were doing was "idolatrous" and "superstitious" and who knows what other horrors of blasphemy. (Yes, he obviously got over it)
But ashing can call forth some major emotions in people. This is not a change to spring on either a congregation or the pastor responsible for its care.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
It will invoke idea of mourning and repentance at the very least.
I don't know what the "explanation of ashing" will involve, but neither of the two "Thought for the Day" style readings mention either mourning or repentance. This is one sentence which gives the general flavour: "The ashes that mark our brows are signs of humble thanks for the new life we have in Christ."
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Aye but they are Presbyterians....
...they will be aware of the Biblical symbolism of wearing sackcloth and ashes.
Need I say more.
An act of worship does not stay separate from the surrounding culture no matter where it is imported from.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
There's no Bible reading, indeed no mention of scripture at all that I can see, unless that's going to happen during the ashing.
North-East Quine, becoming a proper crabbit, ill-fashit, contermatious Presbyterian.
I don't think it is necessarily crabbit, ill-fashit, contermatious or even Presbyterian to object to an act of worship that does not include Scripture. This Catholic Anglican would object strongly, and I suspect so would any 'pukka' Catholic.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Tangent// Lamb Chopped!! How are you feeling? //End tangent.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Across the Pond and north of the Line, I have never in my three decades seen an actual imposition of Ashes in a United Church of Canada congregation. There is a hymn in Voices United which is "Sunday's Palms are Wednesday's Ashes", and I believe there is an Ash Wednesday service in Celebrate God's Presence but it is more theoretical than actual, like everything but one paragraph in that book it's just a guideline, not a rule.
We do, however, enthusiastically and widely serve pancakes on Pancake Tuesday, aka Shrove Tuesday, aka Fat Tuesday. Anything which includes maple syrup needs little excuse in Canada anyway.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm, like kingsfold, a piskie now I'm North of the border; but worshipping with a CofS congregation out of necessity (not that they're not a good bunch). Due to our isolation the congregation is a bit of a mixed bag, so the minister has to walk a bit of a tight rope between those of us from a more, ceremonial is perhaps the right word, background and the more traditionalist Presbyterians (many of whom might well be Wee Frees if we had any Wee Frees). In this case she decided she probably couldn't get the Kirk Session to agree to an Ash Wednesday service, never mind ashing. Consequently our small band of piskies is organising a modified service of evening prayer, though we will have to skip the ashing in the absence of a priest.
It strikes me that the liturgical centre point for Anglicans and Presbyterians is not all that far apart, it's just that the fringes of each, and what is considered radical or inappropriate, spread further in different directions.
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PRESBY DUDE
Apprentice
# 16035
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Posted
I'm thinking that many (not all) American Presbyterians - at least of the more progressive Presbyterian Church USA branch - wouldn't find the reception of ashes off-putting or shocking. In my congregation, we've done the service a number of times over the years, although I haven't heard that it's scheduled for this year.
Nonetheless, though absolutely no one complained about the service being "too high up on the candle" (a phrase that I've learned from this website), we haven't packed in the worshippers on Ash Wednesday either. I think perhaps about thirty-five stalwart souls attended last year's service -- far less than a third of our usual Sunday morning attendance.
The Presbies can differ a great deal, just as the Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, etc., do.
Our own church has the liturgical colors, robes, candles, gold cross, lectionary readings, etc. Some Presbyterian churches wouldn't be all that comfortable with our modest pomp and circumstance. There are limits, of course! For example, we have a Communion Table, not an altar. I haven't seen anyone bowing toward it either!
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
Rsther strange to hear that members of the Church of England are not aware that their sister church just across the border is the Scottish Episcopal Church and not the Church of Scotland.
There are swathes of Scotland where the Scottish Episcopal Church is very thin on the ground. Where I am currently living, the nearest one is 23 miles across country. While that is not an impossible distance for those with a car, it could become so for older people. Some other places have Episcopal churches, but only have services once a month or so: in between times the congregation may well be full participants in their local CofS. And some islands have no such option at all.
Many of the Anglicans/former Anglicans who attend the Church of Scotland do so because they have found that it is not so much the distinctive Anglican ecclesiology that was their first commitment, but the whole idea and role of the parish church. If they live in a small village, they may find that they want to worship with and witness to their local community, rather than travel 23 miles to a community that they can only really access once a week. Some will enthusiastically throw their lot in with the Kirk; others become 'adherrents' (an official designation) without actually becoming members.
I sympathise with their quandry. When I lived in England, moving around a lot, I would always seek out a URC church for preference, followed by a Methodist one, followed by an Anglican one. But likewise, URC churches can be thin on the ground. I didn't have a car then, so in all practicality, my options were dictated by whatever I could walk to. I spent one happy year in an Anglican church that suited me very well, which was fortunate, because it really was the only church within walking distance. So I think Arethosemyfeet is right, that the two traditions can rub along better than one might suppose. But I would never have asked to be confirmed, or have become Anglican. I'm too dyed-in-the-wool Presby for that.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Our nearest Episcopalian church is 4 miles away, but as public transport is thin on the ground on a Sunday it's only accessible by car. I've been in it, but not attended a service. In fact, when Erin died and Shipmates were lighting candles all over the world, I lit a candle there.
We have quite a few church members who are not Presbyterian by upbringing but who prefer to worship within the parish church. As I said upthread, this is an area with a lot of oil-industry jobs, which can involve quite a lot of international movement; not only of Anglicans / Methodists etc coming in, but Presbys who have spent a couple of years in Houston, or Dubai, and have been part of non-Presbyterian churches there.
It's now on the website "forthcoming events" billed as "a very informal half-hour together" and no mention of actual ashes. Sunday's intimation sheet is up, too, with the same wording.
It's possible the minister still has no clue about the ashing, though it's equally possible he does.
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Salicional
Shipmate
# 16461
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Posted
At our PCUSA shack in a small-ish town in a rural area, we've done the imposition of ashes for about five years now. It was suggested by our associate pastor at the time, who was very receptive to ideas from other branches of Christianity. We've always done a simple meal followed by Communion on Ash Wednesday (in the fellowship hall rather than in the sanctuary), so it was not difficult to add the ashes to the existing service. The minister explains the ritual beforehand, and announces that people are free to participate, or not, as they see fit.
The first year I'm not quite sure that people knew what to make of it -- there may have been some suspicion, particularly among the 'old guard' of the church, that it was moving us perilously close to Popery. But I get the sense now that people have really come to accept and appreciate the richness of the symbolism, and almost everyone who attends the service now receives the ashes. (The weekly worship at this church is very sermon-centered, and deeply lacking of ritual and symbolism, so perhaps people have a need that was waiting for an opportunity to be met.)
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
I don't even think we should be doing it in the Church of England. Doing it in the Kirk sounds absurd.
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
Today is Ash-Wednesday,and most of the major churches in London like St.Paul's,Westminster Abbey,
St.Martin in the Fields,St.Mary Abbots, Southwark Cathedral,are commencing Lent by having the Eucharist with the Ashing.So it is currently a normal liturgical practise, unlike forty years ago,when the Ashing was only found in Anglo-Catholic churches.
I would not be surprised to hear that even Open-Evangelical churches, like St.Mary's Islington
observe Ash-Wednesday.
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Robert Kennedy
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I'd guess a majority of CofE parishes do nowadays, not just the well-known ones you listed. Even we do it, though the vicar is a bit reluctant or cautious sometimes. Almost as if apologising for doing it. Same goes for the footwashing at Maunday Thursday. Tends to over-explain and go on about how no-one is expected or required to come up be ashed or washed and no-one will mind if you don't... which of course just about everyone does!
Maybes its a desire to keep everyoine comfortable with what's done. But those rituals are meant to make you feel uncomfortable.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
As a Methodist minister with a good relationship with the neighbouring Presbyterian parish, who I know are stretched for clergy cover right now, I issued an invite in their bulletin to our Ash Wednesday service; which featured the imposition of ashes and a celebration of the Eucharist.
I think there were as many Presbyterians as Methodists at the service. We passed the ashes from one to another either in silence or with an encourging word. It all went very well.
[ 13. February 2013, 18:02: Message edited by: Matariki ]
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I don't even think we should be doing it in the Church of England. Doing it in the Kirk sounds absurd.
Why do you think that? Personally, I find it a helpful practice and a reminder that we are in the company of a much greater company of witnesses as we tread the road to calvary and beyond.
I'm a Methodist presbyter and I've celebrated two Eucharists today, both with imposition of ashes. The Methodist Worship Book gives a liturgy for the day which includes that and I certainly see no reason not to do it. Within the service, it's of course optional for those there as to whether they wish to receive the ashes or not.
[ 13. February 2013, 18:16: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
This Presbyterian went to Mass.
Tiny rural NZ church but fullish.
The church was green and Father wore purple.
But it moved me. Grieving for my mother, after the Mass I feel an Internal Shift and ready to move on a bit.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Although it's spread rapidly, and I rather like it, Ashing is rather a recent thing in the ordinary parts of the CofE, more or less unknown until within the last 15 years or so.
It has been normal though to have a Communion Service on Ash Wednesday throughout my adult life, as Ascension Day, often in the evening, even if only the keen types attend it.
NEQ, although the CofE is more liturgical than the CofS and traditionally attaches much more importance to the Church Year, I'd agree with those who have said that Ashing without scripture would sit very uncomfortably with normal CofE assumptions about how things are done and what you expect to happen.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I went to an Imposition of Ashes service this evening at t'other Anglican parish here ... a catholic-lite liberal catholic one. The parish we're in is snake-belly low evangelical and wouldn't entertain such a thing - although I don't think they'd object to people doing it elsewhere.
I've only ever attended one Kirk service in Scotland and had a fascinating chat with the minister afterwards. He was clearly used to dealing with Anglicans and understood - and had a lot of respect - for their position and was clearly adept at explaining things to Anglican visitors or people who shifted towards the Kirk as they moved north of the border.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Whatever happens in Anglican churches the imposition of ashes in Catholic churches is certainly surrounded by as many scriptural references as would surely make even Ian Paisley happy.
There is a reading from the prophet Joel,as well as a reading from the second letter of St Paul to the Corinthians,followed by the Gospel reading from St Matthew reminding us not to parade our good works before men.
In addition the liturgy has the recitation of the Psalm 'miserere mihi' Have mercy on me...
At the distribution of ashes the priest (or other distributer) may say 'Repent and believe the Gospel' or 'Remember that you are dust and unto dust you will return' or pre Vatican 2 'Memento,homo,quia pulvis est et ad pulverem reverteris'
Traditionally in Rome the pope takes part in the Ash Wednesday liturgy in the station church of Santa Sabina. (Yesterday because of the special circumstances the ceremony was transferred to St Peter's basilica).
It's said that it was at this ceremony at Santa Sabina well over 50 years ago that 'good' Pope John,having listened to all the Biblical readings in Latin, felt impelled to call the council at which at least one of the points under consideration would be a vernacularisation of the liturgy.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Sorry about Latin quote.Latinists will immediately see that it should be 'Memento,homo,quia pulvis es.........'(not est)
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
As long as we're being pedantic, the correct wording is: Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
"In" with the accusative case translates as "into" whereas "ad" would translate "toward".
[ 14. February 2013, 14:40: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Update. I e-mailed our minister last Friday, saying that I thought that it should be made clear in the intimations that there were going to be ashes at the "informal half-hour, with refreshments afterwards."
He replied that he had heard nothing about the ashing, would check and would ensure that the intimations gave a clear idea of what was happening.
On Sunday he commented during the intimations that "ashing is something that is done in many churches in many parts of the world" and that if anyone wanted to experience this, there would be ashes imposed on the back of the hand at the Wednesday evening gathering.
This seemed to me to be ideal - my main concern was that this was being sprung on people with no warning. I have considerable admiration for my minister's ability to handle matters diplomatically!
I don't know what actually happened last night, as I didn't go. The weather was cold and sleety and the pavements slushy so I suspect the numbers were lower than they might have been on a fine evening.
I do feel that ashing ought to be done as part of a "proper" service, complete with Scripture, but given that the organiser undoubtedly meant well, and the minister was confronted with a more-or-less fait accompli I think it all ended as well as possible.
Next year I might seek out an Episcopalian church myself on Ash Wednesday, as I have realised that I am woefully ignorant and am curious to learn more. It would have to be a "proper" service, though! Nothing "informal, with refreshments" for me on Ash Wednesday!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
NEQ, if you don't mind me saying this, 'intimations' is to me, a magnificently and indelibly CofS word, as precise a marker as all sorts of peculiar Russian words mark someone as Orthodox.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well handled North East Quine and you have a good minister who seems to have handled this well.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although it's spread rapidly, and I rather like it, Ashing is rather a recent thing in the ordinary parts of the CofE, more or less unknown until within the last 15 years or so.
My church must have been ahead of the curve when I was growing up, then. I remember my Dad burning palm crosses in the drive to make the ash, close to 20 years ago.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
NEQ, if you don't mind me saying this, 'intimations' is to me, a magnificently and indelibly CofS word, as precise a marker as all sorts of peculiar Russian words mark someone as Orthodox.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But it's not as magnificent as "Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland."
"Quinquennial visitation" is good, too.
And yes, Jengie, he's a very good minister.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I went to an Imposition of Ashes service this evening at t'other Anglican parish here ... a catholic-lite liberal catholic one. The parish we're in is snake-belly low evangelical and wouldn't entertain such a thing - although I don't think they'd object to people doing it elsewhere.
That's a parish with a long tradition of ashing. I remember choosing to be dashed aged 6 there (28 years ago) and disappointed new parish didn't for it (except once) though it had a service
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Or any of the following
- "Address the moderator" - speak to a meeting
- "The Manual" - how to run your church, every thing from calling a minister to fixing the toilets
- "communion cards" and "elders visit" or is my ex-pat congregation the only one still keeping this.
- "induction" - an even installing someone to a church office
- "Presbytery" - I think nearest Anglican equivalent is Deanery but...
- "Grand entrance" - the carrying of the elements by elders at the start of a communion service.
- One oddly shared with CofI is "Vestry" but altered to situation
I have to speak Presbyterian on Sundays!
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I'm glad it all worked out well, NEQ. I echo the praise of your obviously excellent minister.
And while we are on grand old Presbyterian words, 'anent' has to be one of the grandest! For example, "The Act Anent the Remarriage of Divorced Persons'. It's an old Scots legal term, I think, but it has survived in the Kirk.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Miss Amanda mea culpa I should have checked in the old Missal without thinking I could remember it from 40 years ago.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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