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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: lilBuddha and Benedict XVI
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
So as not further to derail the Pope vs Trump thread, I want to clear something up here with lilBuddha. I do so with reluctance as I had hoped it would fizzle out but I find I can't quite overcome my inner niggle now that he has belatedly responded. With any luck this can be cleared up quickly and I can stop giving the hosts more petty drivel to wade through.
So, the thing is this. Beginning a few posts back from the one I'm going to quote below, lilBuddha started making oblique digs at Pope Emeritus (I'll agree, that title sounds absurd) Benedict XVI, quondam Joseph Ratzinger. I admitted that I had a great residual loyalty to that man, whom I admired enough to take Benedict as my Confirmation name, and I took issue with lilBuddha calling him a Nazi. Here's how it went after that (sorry for the nesting):
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
*I let the "Herr pope" reference slide (because, you know, Benedict is German, even if the relevance of that escapes me)
It was shorthand for 'The previous pope whose name I do not remember and do not have the time at the moment to look up.'
You could[n't] remember his name - what, neither of them? And it never occurred to you that you could just have said "Francis's predecessor" or "the pope before"? You'll forgive me if I decline to buy such goods.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Conditionally I will state that the Nazi epithet might not be fitting. But his conservatism draw no respect from me.
Two things:
1) You didn't "respect his conservatism"? That's your justification for calling him a Nazi?
2) Can I just confirm if that conditional admission (and why conditional?) means that you are withdrawing the Nazi slur? If so, just say so and I'm happy to drop this tangent altogether.
Happy to take this to a whole 'nother thread if you really don't want to reply here - just say the word and I'll start it.
lilBuddha responded this morning: quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
2) Can I just confirm if that conditional admission (and why conditional?) means that you are withdrawing the Nazi slur? If so, just say so and I'm happy to drop this tangent altogether.
I was going to let this go, but Tukai's post down in Hell triggered this response.
I will offer no apology for insulting Benedict. I detest the conservative Catholic positions on women's rights and LGBT issues. Whilst Francis may not be changing policy, his much less self-righteous and judgmental position is a step forward.
I will give Benedict this much: he did begin the removal of abusive clergy. But given that this is merely the least of what should have been done decades past, it is hardly call for great praise.
Good to hear that lilBuddha (kinda grudgingly) admits that there was some good in Benedict, and I'm going to let the implication (with which I profoundly disagree) that Benedict was "self-righteous and judgmental" pass so that I can concentrate on the Nazi issue, which is my real beef ("original and still the best").
So I repeat my challenge to lilBuddha either to justify that very specific slur or ask him unconditionally to withdraw it. For me, this is personal, and I don't mind admitting that: I find it enormously offensive. But it's also about charity and justice.
Anyway. That's all. See here for the whole exchange.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
It occurs to me that I can't remember (if I ever knew) if lilBuddha is a he or a she. Apologies if the latter - thoughtless of me to assume.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Lilbuddha has rant against Catholicism/Pope XYZ...
Will there be something on the late news?
Go and search for any vaguely Catholic thread and that hoofwanking bunglecunt will be whining "oh the children, won't anyone think of the children" all over it.
To be honest, as the Popes go further and further back he hates them more and more. If you mention St. Peter I suspect his aorta might pop. Go on, mention St. Peter and see if it does.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Chesterbelloc,
If you wish a discussion of the pros and cons of Benedict I will happily do so. If you wish me to withdraw the nazi comment, we can discuss this, but as it was meant in disrespect, I'm not sure you will be satisfied.
beano, your post wouldn't be worth the reply except others might believe it as well. I do not have a problem with Catholics. I do have a problem with some of the official positions of the church and some of the problems inherent in their management system. But this is equally applicable to the Orthodox and, to a lesser extent, the CofE. Basically any group that regards women as second class and treats LGBT people as less than will earn no respect from me for those positions.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Without scouring the source material, did the ex-pope get directly referred to as a Nazi? Or is that entirely inferred from the technically-correct German title "Herr"?
Just curious, and wanting to annoy both of you.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Chesterbelloc,
If you wish a discussion of the pros and cons of Benedict I will happily do so. If you wish me to withdraw the nazi comment, we can discuss this, but as it was meant in disrespect, I'm not sure you will be satisfied.
Well, I thought I'd made myself pretty clear and I think it's pretty simple. But here goes again...
Please justify and defend your specific epithet "Nazi" or please withdraw it. Either way, we can discuss it if you'd like to, but have the courtesy to let me know which you're doing.
I'm certainly not going to get into a more general pro/con argument about Benedict with you. Plenty of shit has been flung at Benedict over the years - some of it on these boards - but on this occasion I'm just calling out this bit.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Without scouring the source material, did the ex-pope get directly referred to as a Nazi? Or is that entirely inferred from the technically-correct German title "Herr"?
I refer the Honourable Admin to a post in the chain I linked to some moments ago: quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, if pope nazi had made that criticism to a public figure, would that have drawn the same response as when pope feelgood said it?
By "pope Nazi" lilBuddha meant to indicate Benedict XVI.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Chesterbelloc,
If you wish a discussion of the pros and cons of Benedict I will happily do so. If you wish me to withdraw the nazi comment, we can discuss this, but as it was meant in disrespect, I'm not sure you will be satisfied.
beano, your post wouldn't be worth the reply except others might believe it as well. I do not have a problem with Catholics. I do have a problem with some of the official positions of the church and some of the problems inherent in their management system. But this is equally applicable to the Orthodox and, to a lesser extent, the CofE. Basically any group that regards women as second class and treats LGBT people as less than will earn no respect from me for those positions.
You missed islam off your list lilbuddha. You onlu mentioned Christian organisations, not islam.
Perhaps you just don't like Christians rather than "any group" that doesn't like LGBT people. Seems that way you holier-than-thou, self-righteous cockwomble.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
It's pretty simple. But here goes again...
Please justify and defend your specific epithet "Nazi" or please withdraw it. Either way, we can discuss it if you'd like to, but have the courtesy to let me know which you're doing.
Why do you care? My distaste for the man can hardly be a novel experience for you, when so many Catholics were pleased by his departure.
Charity and justice? What of charity and justice for LGBT people? Especially the Catholics who wish to be faithful and are treated like anathema?
As far as justifying calling him a Nazi, it is a common epithet directed towards him as he was in the Hitler Youth. And because he supports the canonization of Pius the XII who knew of the treatment of the Jews in Nazi Germany but said nothing.
Hitler Youth membership doesn't make a Nazi,though his actions regarding this are less than stellar.
Nor does supporting a pope who failed to challenge Nazism make one a Nazi, but again, less than admirable.
This hurts me sooo fucking much, but from what I can find he is and was not a Nazi. I do not say this to satisfy you, and in no way to show respect towards Benedict, but because the insult was lazy and inaccurate.
I still think he was the wrong choice to lead the RCC and the second best thing he did was resign.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
missed islam off your list lilbuddha. You onlu mentioned Christian organisations, not islam.
Perhaps you just don't like Christians rather than "any group" that doesn't like LGBT people. Seems that way you holier-than-thou, self-righteous cockwomble.
You missed this part
quote:
Basically any group that regards women as second class and treats LGBT people as less than will earn no respect from me for those positions.
which covers any group which holds those positions.
But then paying attention isn't your strong suit, you diseased arse pustule.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
holier-than-thou, self-righteous cockwomble.
you diseased arse pustule.
I disagree with lilBuddha on this, but 10 out of ten10 for this retort.
Well done.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
It occurs to me that I can't remember (if I ever knew) if lilBuddha is a he or a she. Apologies if the latter - thoughtless of me to assume.
Not central to the debate but I'm thinking she.
The Nazi taint on Benedict came from him being drafted into the Hitler Youth movement, as were many young males in his predicament. It didn't in any way make him a bad person.
AIUI he did lift the lid on child abuse in the RC which was more than his predecessors were prepared to do. Easy though for critics to jump on his back and say he didn't go far enough.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The Nazi taint on Benedict came from him being drafted into the Hitler Youth movement, as were many young males in his predicament. It didn't in any way make him a bad person.
I don't think it is that simple. I am sure that being drafted into the Hitler Youth would have made me a bad person. I hope I would have got over it, and I also hope that I would have been sufficiently self-aware later in life not to dash into re-writing the history of the 1930s. He should have told the Spanish Bishops, so keen to canonise the Franco supporters, "not yet, not until we are all dead."
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
It occurs to me that I can't remember (if I ever knew) if lilBuddha is a he or a she. Apologies if the latter - thoughtless of me to assume.
Not central to the debate but I'm thinking she.
The Nazi taint on Benedict came from him being drafted into the Hitler Youth movement, as were many young males in his predicament. It didn't in any way make him a bad person.
AIUI he did lift the lid on child abuse in the RC which was more than his predecessors were prepared to do. Easy though for critics to jump on his back and say he didn't go far enough.
But that kind of detail is enough for lillbuddha to call him a Nazi. The word "drafted" is probably something he skips over though, being a hard-of-thinking oxygen thief.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
missed islam off your list lilbuddha. You onlu mentioned Christian organisations, not islam.
Perhaps you just don't like Christians rather than "any group" that doesn't like LGBT people. Seems that way you holier-than-thou, self-righteous cockwomble.
You missed this part
quote:
Basically any group that regards women as second class and treats LGBT people as less than will earn no respect from me for those positions.
which covers any group which holds those positions.
But then paying attention isn't your strong suit, you diseased arse pustule.
Interstingly though, your list comprised only major Christian denominations. The most active group that is currently killing gay people with abandon, ISIS, a muslim organisation, is relegated to the mere generic "any group".
You are a coward as well as a bell-end.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Chesterbelloc,
If you wish a discussion of the pros and cons of Benedict I will happily do so. If you wish me to withdraw the nazi comment, we can discuss this, but as it was meant in disrespect, I'm not sure you will be satisfied.
beano, your post wouldn't be worth the reply except others might believe it as well. I do not have a problem with Catholics. I do have a problem with some of the official positions of the church and some of the problems inherent in their management system. But this is equally applicable to the Orthodox and, to a lesser extent, the CofE. Basically any group that regards women as second class and treats LGBT people as less than will earn no respect from me for those positions.
I've had to read this again because something was bothering me about it. I've just realised what it is. You mention that Pope Benedict XVI is a Nazi because he was forced into the Hitler Youth; you mention that you don't like Christians who regard women and LBGT people as second class citizens.
But you don't mention anything about child abuse in your list of things you don't like.
It seems to me that you will grasp onto anything to beat the Christian denominations with, but this time im your rush, you forgot historic child abuse. To me, therefore, your issue isn't with any specific issue with Christianity, it's just that you hate Christianity and will use any particular stick to beat Christian denominations.
You are not interested in child abuse, Nazi's, the treatment of women or the treatment of LBGT people. You just don't like Christianity. The child abuse etc is merely your fig leaf to cover up your real attitude.
You're a broken record.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
missed islam off your list lilbuddha. You onlu mentioned Christian organisations, not islam.
Perhaps you just don't like Christians rather than "any group" that doesn't like LGBT people. Seems that way you holier-than-thou, self-righteous cockwomble.
You missed this part
quote:
Basically any group that regards women as second class and treats LGBT people as less than will earn no respect from me for those positions.
which covers any group which holds those positions.
But then paying attention isn't your strong suit, you diseased arse pustule.
Interstingly though, your list comprised only major Christian denominations. The most active group that is currently killing gay people with abandon, ISIS, a muslim organisation, is relegated to the mere generic "any group".
You are a coward as well as a bell-end.
The key words there being "currently" and "abandon". ISIS is very much here and now and they will kill anyone who doesn't fit their own narrow definition of Islam. I'm sure they are at least as ruthless with insiders too. It is as likely to implode than be defeated from the outside.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
deano: ISIS, a muslim organisation, is relegated to the mere generic "any group".
You are a coward as well as a bell-end.
While you are at this moment out in the desert, fighting twenty armed ISIS warriors with a blunt tea spoon.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
deano: ISIS, a muslim organisation, is relegated to the mere generic "any group".
You are a coward as well as a bell-end.
While you are at this moment out in the desert, fighting twenty armed ISIS warriors with a blunt tea spoon.
I'm not the one ignoring that problem though. Lilbuddha is.
Oh, and from wiki... quote:
The most criticised doctrine is found in Amida Buddhism’s vow 35: "The Buddha established the Vow of transformation [women] into men, Thereby vowing to enable women to attain Buddhahood"
Lilbuddha, you fucking hypocrite!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
deano: I'm not the one ignoring that problem though.
How courageous of you.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Please justify and defend your specific epithet "Nazi" or please withdraw it. Either way, we can discuss it if you'd like to, but have the courtesy to let me know which you're doing.
[snip]As far as justifying calling him a Nazi, it is a common epithet directed towards him as he was in the Hitler Youth. [...] Hitler Youth membership doesn't make a Nazi,though his actions regarding this are less than stellar.
What is that supposed to mean? Do you know anything at all about the wartime experiences of the young Ratzinger and his immediate family under the Nazi regime? Because it really doesn't sound like it.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Nor does supporting a pope who failed to challenge Nazism make one a Nazi, but again, less than admirable. [Benedict] supports the canonization of Pius the XII who knew of the treatment of the Jews in Nazi Germany but said nothing.
And you clearly know as little about Pius XII's actual wartime record as you do about Ratzinger's. That Pius XII did and said nothing to help the Jewish people during the war is another ignorant and malicious falsehood which you could have saved yourself the embarrassment of uttering by the smallest amount of judicious googling.
Why do you set yourself up in this way? Take my advice and avoid painting yourself into the same corner on Pius as you just have with Benedict by reading this handy link.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This hurts me sooo fucking much, but from what I can find [Benedict] is and was not a Nazi. I do not say this to satisfy you, and in no way to show respect towards Benedict, but because the insult was lazy and inaccurate.
At long last - albeit with an ill-grace that would make a tantrummy child ashamed - we get what I'm going to accept as a retraction. Thank you.
You know, it would have hurt you a lot less if you'd not been so hell-bent on smearing one of your shit-listers without bothering to check if you had the first notion of what you were talking about.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I've had to read this again because something was bothering me about it. I've just realised what it is. You mention that Pope Benedict XVI is a Nazi because he was forced into the Hitler Youth; you mention that you don't like Christians who regard women and LBGT people as second class citizens.
But you don't mention anything about child abuse in your list of things you don't like.
WTF? I mean.. really. I don't like melon. Nobody has to list all the things they don't like for your benefit you utter prick.
quote:
It seems to me that you will grasp onto anything to beat the Christian denominations with, but this time im your rush, you forgot historic child abuse.
Right, goddit.
quote:
To me, therefore, your issue isn't with any specific issue with Christianity, it's just that you hate Christianity and will use any particular stick to beat Christian denominations.
So what? Even if someone here does actually "hate Christianity", what is it to you?
quote:
You are not interested in child abuse, Nazi's, the treatment of women or the treatment of LBGT people. You just don't like Christianity. The child abuse etc is merely your fig leaf to cover up your real attitude.
So, one is not allowed to have opinions on those things whilst simultaneously disliking Christianity. I see.
quote:
You're a broken record.
And you're a giant cock.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
And you're a giant cock.
I think you're flattering him. (Perhaps you should check the size of his hands...)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Interstingly though, your list comprised only major Christian denominations. The most active group that is currently killing gay people with abandon, ISIS, a muslim organisation, is relegated to the mere generic "any group".
Usually, if we're discussing some kind of bad treatment of a particular minority group by some group or other in the West, we don't need to add the rider "ISIS would be worse".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
And lilbuddha won't complain about islam oppressing women and LBGT people because he/she is fully aware that they second he/she does so someone on here will screm"racist!!" because eveyone knows that to say anything bad about islam is code for saying bad thing about people with different coloured skin.
And Buddhists think that to be equal with men, women are somehow converted into men. Nastiness to LBGT's or just women? You decide.
Nobody on this website has to like Christianity. I don't like anyone lower down the candle than me, but at the very least a modicum of balance and objectivity would surely be welcome. Lilbuddha has none of that and instead replaces it with cowardice and hypocrisy. Nice faith he/she likes.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
but at the very least a modicum of balance and objectivity would surely be welcome.
deano says this? While screaming about hypocrisy?
Next question: is lilBuddha actually claiming to be Buddhist? Or even a proponent of Buddhism? Because I work with a guy named Jesus Muhammed, and I'm pretty sure he's atheist. Assuming things based on superficial coincidence is not always fruitful.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
What is that supposed to mean? Do you know anything at all about the wartime experiences of the young Ratzinger and his immediate family under the Nazi regime? Because it really doesn't sound like it.
I have read several sources, rather than give one of the many anti references, I will give the link to a balanced one. Hardly paints him as the devil, but, IMO, far short of heroic.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And you clearly know as little about Pius XII's actual wartime record as you do about Ratzinger's.
I read that very same link and my takeaway was that the leader and moral backbone of a major religion, one with large numbers of adherents in Germany, should have made a very public denunciation of such an evil. An evil that he knew of with much greater detail than the vast majority of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
At long last - albeit with an ill-grace that would make a tantrummy child ashamed - we get what I'm going to accept as a retraction. Thank you.
It indeed lacked grace. No apologies for that. And don't thank me, you are not why of it.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Lilbuddha, you fucking hypocrite!
Yeah, I probably am in several ways. But not for this.
It is a muckraking distraction tactic to claim one must give detailed denunciation of every possible related thing before contesting any POV. Go ahead, look those words up before continuing to read, I'll wait.
Yes, some variations of other religions have issues as well. But this thread isn't about them. In order to even discuss any of it, you would have to learn the various differences between those variations, their structure, etc. and you have shown resistance to any such knowledge so what is the point?
Side note: At first I was impressed than you were mounting a prolonged, though pathetic, attack instead of your typical tactic of flinging a bit of your own poo and scampering away. It doesn't take more than a moment, however, to realise your bravado comes from hiding behind Chesterbelloc's cassock.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
What is that supposed to mean? Do you know anything at all about the wartime experiences of the young Ratzinger and his immediate family under the Nazi regime? Because it really doesn't sound like it.
I have read several sources, rather than give one of the many anti references, I will give the link to a balanced one. Hardly paints him as the devil, but, IMO, far short of heroic.
To the extent that your "balanced" source agrees with you that Benedict's resistance as a minor to the Nazi regime was real but not actually downright heroic and that therefore he is to be considered with moral disdain - to that extent, I dispute its "balance". Even wikipedia does better than that.
But, of course, this is all a sideshow to distract attention from the fact you've had to back down on your claim Benedict was a Nazi.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And you clearly know as little about Pius XII's actual wartime record as you do about Ratzinger's.
I read that very same link and my takeaway was that the leader and moral backbone of a major religion, one with large numbers of adherents in Germany, should have made a very public denunciation of such an evil.
Nice try, lilBuddha - but your original claim was that Pius said nothing in the face of the sufferings of the Jews, not just that he should have said/done more. Whereas in fact - whether you, I or anyone else think it was enough - he did enough to save perhaps as many as 800,000 Jewish lives. His own explanation for having said less than he might have was that he was frightened of making things worse - and yes, things could have been even worse - by blowing the thin cover of Vatican "neutrality" altogether.
But at this distance in time and having read a wikipedia entry, you know so much better, so off to the moral gulag with him.
If you want to continue our illuminating coversation about Pius XII start your own pissing hell thread.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
At long last - albeit with an ill-grace that would make a tantrummy child ashamed - we get what I'm going to accept as a retraction. Thank you.
It indeed lacked grace. No apologies for that. And don't thank me, you are not why of it.
That's right - you were just about to retract anyway. Anyone can see that. You're a really classy act.
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
So, in summary, what are the overriding arguments in support of B16 being a Nazi?
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
What is that supposed to mean? Do you know anything at all about the wartime experiences of the young Ratzinger and his immediate family under the Nazi regime? Because it really doesn't sound like it.
I have read several sources, rather than give one of the many anti references, I will give the link to a balanced one. Hardly paints him as the devil, but, IMO, far short of heroic.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And you clearly know as little about Pius XII's actual wartime record as you do about Ratzinger's.
I read that very same link and my takeaway was that the leader and moral backbone of a major religion, one with large numbers of adherents in Germany, should have made a very public denunciation of such an evil. An evil that he knew of with much greater detail than the vast majority of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
At long last - albeit with an ill-grace that would make a tantrummy child ashamed - we get what I'm going to accept as a retraction. Thank you.
It indeed lacked grace. No apologies for that. And don't thank me, you are not why of it.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Lilbuddha, you fucking hypocrite!
Yeah, I probably am in several ways. But not for this.
It is a muckraking distraction tactic to claim one must give detailed denunciation of every possible related thing before contesting any POV. Go ahead, look those words up before continuing to read, I'll wait.
Yes, some variations of other religions have issues as well. But this thread isn't about them. In order to even discuss any of it, you would have to learn the various differences between those variations, their structure, etc. and you have shown resistance to any such knowledge so what is the point?
Side note: At first I was impressed than you were mounting a prolonged, though pathetic, attack instead of your typical tactic of flinging a bit of your own poo and scampering away. It doesn't take more than a moment, however, to realise your bravado comes from hiding behind Chesterbelloc's cassock.
Bollocks.
I am accusing you of only OUTRIGHTLY condeming Christianity and of not naming names in the religions that are oppressing women and LBGT people, when Christian denominations are actually changing to improve these situations. Whilst it may not be on the timescales you want, and it might have historical baggage you dislike, they are taking steps towards improvement.
The other religions are not, and are actually taking steps to make things worse. You choose not to discuss these openly, but merely hint at them.
That is why I am calling you a coward and a hypocrite.
I don't need to hide behind anyone's cassock to do that. Here I am, front and centre.
We are in Hell, let's dance!
[ 05. March 2016, 21:49: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Has lilBuddha outright condemned Christianity? Where? And which rule states that if you condemn one thing, you should condemn another thing too?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Has lilBuddha outright condemned Christianity? Where? And which rule states that if you condemn one thing, you should condemn another thing too?
Yes. Read post lilbuddha has made over the last few years. I believe that they represent nothing more than a sustained attack on Christianity, especially high up the candle denominations and Catholicism in particular.
The first post lilbuddha made in this thread listed a number of organisations that allegedly subjugated women and LBGT people. All of which were Christian denominations. The organisations that are actively doing these things were relegated to "any other groups".
Your mileage may vary depending on your own particular spiritual and political point of view.
There isn't a rule, but to not do has a special name... "Hypocrisy".
[ 05. March 2016, 21:57: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
An outright condemnation isn't very outright if you have to go through various years of posts to find it.
And I still don't understand. Even if she has condemned Christianity. By which rule should she also condemn other things?
(PS I do find that lilBuddha shouldn't have used the term 'nazi pope'. I'm no big fan of Ben16 either, but this is a term you need to be careful with.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
deano: There isn't a rule, but to not do has a special name... "Hypocrisy".
No, this isn't what the word 'hypocrisy' means. It doesn't mean that when you condemn one thing, you are therefore compelled to condemn all things that are equally bad.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Um, is Christianity supposed to have a protected status on these boards?
And, AIUI, hypocrisy is basically saying one thing and doing another. Example: a classic joke. "I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't take the Lord's name in vain...God damn it, I left my cigarettes in the bar!"
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
lilBuddha--
You said:
quote:
I do not say this to satisfy you, and in no way to show respect towards Benedict, but because the insult was lazy and inaccurate.
I still think he was the wrong choice to lead the RCC and the second best thing he did was resign.
Apologies if I missed it, but what do you see as the best thing he did?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lilBuddha--
You said:
quote:
I do not say this to satisfy you, and in no way to show respect towards Benedict, but because the insult was lazy and inaccurate.
I still think he was the wrong choice to lead the RCC and the second best thing he did was resign.
Apologies if I missed it, but what do you see as the best thing he did?
Ramp up the proper removal of abusers. I did mention that was a good thing he did, but perhaps on the original thread.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Usually, if we're discussing some kind of bad treatment of a particular minority group by some group or other in the West, we don't need to add the rider "ISIS would be worse".
Perhaps everyone who wishes to criticize anybody for treating minorities poorly should be required to add that to their sig.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
And Buddhists think that to be equal with men, women are somehow converted into men.
Where on earth did you get that weird idea from?
He was quoting the writing of one particular Buddhist denomination. A bit like quoting Calvin on predestination and claiming all Christians believe that. However much of Buddhism does seem to have that belief, but, then most people, men and women, are unlikely to become Buddhas in this lifetime.
There were some early Christian writings (not canonical) that said something similar. Gospel of Thomas Saying 114 "For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven".
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
IMO, any text should be read as to how it resulted to the whole of the work and the point of the text. So, in Buddhism, gender should be irrelevant. That it isn't is due to cultural artifacts. This isn't to say discrimination is therefore OK, it is not.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The Nazi taint on Benedict came from him being drafted into the Hitler Youth movement, as were many young males in his predicament. It didn't in any way make him a bad person.
I don't think it is that simple. I am sure that being drafted into the Hitler Youth would have made me a bad person. I hope I would have got over it, and I also hope that I would have been sufficiently self-aware later in life not to dash into re-writing the history of the 1930s. He should have told the Spanish Bishops, so keen to canonise the Franco supporters, "not yet, not until we are all dead."
Having had some years ago the interesting task of preparing paper to defend a Conservative minister who had been a member of the Hitler Youth as a child, I not only dug into the situation, but spoke with several elderly German immigrants who had been in the same boat as Mr Oberle. It was made clear to me that there was no real choice in the matter and, even if an 8-year old had been sufficiently politically mature to object, it would have caused grave problems for their parents. I knew of one exception, where a parent had kept his son out, but he was a disabled Iron Cross holder and likely used his street creds for that purpose.
It should also be noted that the adolescent Ratzinger deserted from the army auxiliary unit to which he had been assigned, and could have been shot for this (some estimate that thousands of deserting adolescents were executed for this offence in the last weeks of the war). Whether or not one likes Benedict or thinks he should have been elected to the papacy, or even ordained, the Nazi epithet is not warranted, and IMHO is too foul to be used as a rhetorical insult.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And which rule states that if you condemn one thing, you should condemn another thing too?
It's a general 'rule' of internet arguing, used as a tactic to delegitimise otherwise perfectly valid observations. If you highlight one thing, you are taken to be downplaying the 35,000 other things that you didn't mention at the same time.
See also: "Black lives matter".
[ 07. March 2016, 02:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, in Buddhism, gender should be irrelevant. That it isn't is due to cultural artifacts.
Which is exactly the sort of tap-dancing Christians (including me) do to make sense of their religion.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Breaking news: all belief systems and their believers have problems.
In other news: the pope is still Catholic*, and bears do use Porta-Pottis in the woods.
*As possibly distinguished from Orthodox popes, depending on the definition of "Catholic".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
lB--
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Apologies if I missed it, but what do you see as the best thing he did?
Ramp up the proper removal of abusers. I did mention that was a good thing he did, but perhaps on the original thread.
Thanks. Thought that might be it.
I wasn't a fan of B16. Lot of water under the bridge, since then; but IIRC my non-fandom was due to saying something offensive about Muslims, early on, and not reportedly not understanding why it would be offensive; and mostly some bad handling of people related to the abuse scandal. (I think a priest or cardinal was moved to Rome.)
But anything he did to open up the abuse mess was to the good. And I did feel sorry for him towards the end of his reign, where it seemed like a lot of other stuff was going on and he was simply overwhelmed. And his body seemed such a wreck.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Breaking news: all belief systems and their believers have problems.
Yes, get your PhDs in urso-sylvatic-scatology while they're hot.
The episode you are recalling was the Regensburg lecture. quote:
Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.
I'm pretty sure we had a thread about it.
[ 07. March 2016, 06:30: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
In the Netherlands there was a lot of discussion about the late Prince Claus, father of our current King, who was in the Hitler Jugend also. It's good that these discussions are held, but I have a lot of respect for Prince Claus.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
[above]
Thanks.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A the A - thank you for all your post and in particular the last sentence. lilBuddha's slur was cheap and nasty.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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