Ship of Fools: What's changed?

Thread: What's changed? Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

So another celebrity, no doubt well-loved (I do not recall much about him), has been accused of sexual assault [misconduct? really? is that a legal term? seems a bit 'polite' to me]

Why, since Weinstein, have all these allegations come out? Is it simply now is the time, women, and men, were fed up? Is it that once someone as big as Weinstein was outed as a sexual offender, it became easier for people to come forward? Something else?

I may not read the right sites but I have not come across such an analysis yet. I'm sure it's out there. And I'm curious what it is, and what shipmates think.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Is it that once someone as big as Weinstein was outed as a sexual offender, it became easier for people to come forward? .

I think this is a major factor. Both in that people are emboldened to come forward and they are more likely to be listened to than in the past.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I think it's partly due to Trump. He opened Pandora's box, and basically made it more ok to do the bad stuff he reportedly has done, and even says he's done.

But that may have been enough to get people saying, "OMG, I can't do anything about that creep, but maybe I can speak out about the one(s) who hurt me".

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Why can't they do anything about that creep? Law doesn't apply to him?

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Here you go, a superb article explaining how it has changed.
This one is from the Guardian.
You are not alone in noticing the correlation between the elevation of a self-confessed pussy grabber and the anger of women. We are not going to go away, and we can no longer keep quiet. Because you can see what good being silent did us.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I have been pondering the change.

Thirty years ago, I worked in an office in which one of the young solicitors was "handsy." On one occasion I was backed up against a photocopier when he told me a "joke" the punchline of which involved him grabbing and groping my breasts. Another (male) solicitor told him he was out of order, but also told me that I had to laugh it off, or risk damaging my fledgling career. On a separate occasion the "handsy" solicitor also grabbed a teenage filing clerkess, reducing her to floods of tears in the office.

That was thirty years ago. Mr Handsy's career has progressed and he is now a pillar of the community with a wife and grown up children.

I find myself pondering - what if I heard on the grapevine that the filing clerkess has reported him for that long-ago incident? Or someone else (I can't believe we were the only two females he treated like that). I have no wish to hurt Mr Handsy, but, actually, I would step forward and back up any other complainant.

At no point in the past thirty years has it ever occurred to me that Mr Handsy might ever face repercussions - but it's occurring to me now. It seems possible in a way that it hasn't before that someone else might complain. I won't complain (it's too long ago) but I would back up another complainant.

Something has changed.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We are not going to go away, and we can no longer keep quiet.

(what I really want is a pussy-hat emoji or a wonder woman emoji)

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

NEQ, it is your experience and your entirely sensible feelings that are shared by so many of these women coming forward. It is not we, piling on. It is many victims, backing up the one woman that starts the avalanche. There is a tee shirt which says "What do you call more than one snowflake? An avalanche." That's what this is.

It is my hope that all this turmoil is to the good. Surely at this moment any current Mr. Handsy is going to think hard and several times, before grabbing a boob or pinching a bottom. It is not particularly important to the victims, why Mr. Handsy is restraining himself. Mere civilized behavior is not much to ask; he can cope by himself with the lust in his heart -- get therapy, talk to Jesus, up to him. Let them all be scared straight. This will allow a new social dynamic to be set in place, and our daughters will have a better life.

Which is why public pillorying, howls of execration jail time, and the loss of jobs/movie roles/political position/money/wives is very important. The terror has to have teeth in it. I think it's over at The Atlantic magazine yesterday that I read an article about endangered birds. People trying to encourage them to breed are feeding them, building bird habitat, etc. And this has the unfortunate effect of making the birds tamer -- easier prey. So, to save the species, they're shooting the birds, just a few -- teaching them fear. They have to learn to be wary. It's paradoxical, but the hope is that this will save the endangered species.

And so things like comedian Louis CK's movie premiere being cancelled, or Kevin Spacey being cut out of a movie (replaced by Christopher Plummer!) are good. For us, of course, not them. But they didn't consider us. Now they have to.

Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on :

An acquaintance of mine recently directed (at my request) one of my plays at a small local theatre. He's an able director (though he tends to go for the obvious), and I've worked with him before, both as playwright and as actor.

At any rate, as work progressed on this play, some differences in interpretation opened up -- certain lines, certain characterological features, etc. -- which I spoke to him about outside of rehearsal so as not to involve actors. I'd state my case, he'd listen, then he'd state his case and conclude (A) by informing me that he was the director, and (B) by enveloping me in an embrace.

I get the director thing, I do; I've done some directing myself, and there does need to be a single, unified vision of the production, and directors sometimes do find things in plays that playwrights themselves failed to notice.

It was the embrace that rankled. Don't get me wrong; there was nothing sexUAL about it, but it felt, at least to me, profoundly sexIST. It had this *air* about it of "There, there, you silly ninny, I've got this, and there's nothing to worry your pretty little head about."

(He's frequently gone on about how stupid actors are, and how dumb audiences can be, an attitude I don't share. Maybe he feels the same way about playwrights.)

One thing that's changed, for me, is the ability or willingness -- partly as the result of reading what so many other women are now writing and saying -- to start actually examining my own reactions, to cut through the confusion and fury and hurt, take the incident apart, and come to terms with what's really wrong with it. In this case, it's the misguided idea some guys seem to have that a hug is some sort of all-purpose, never-fail, conflict resolution device which invariably works in their own favor.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Here is another superb article, expressing the spirit that animates many of us. (Mildly obscene, but alas, if you're one of the Me Toos then you have already seen what you didn't want to see.)

Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Here is another superb article, expressing the spirit that animates many of us. (Mildly obscene, but alas, if you're one of the Me Toos then you have already seen what you didn't want to see.)

Looks like Louis C.K. read that piece...

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
The hardest regret to live with is what you've done to hurt someone else.

Yes, Louis. It is about you. Must be tough.

Lucky those women got over it quick smart.

No need to say "sorry" either.

[/sarcasm if needed]

I'm happy he's admitted it. It's 1 step. I would hope more would be forthcoming. That statement reads like something a management consultant would write. I don't see an apology...may've missed it.

--

Thanks for the comments. Greatly appreciated and helpful

NEQ and Ohher; thanks for sharing; so sorry for what happened. I appreciated reading your responses.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I'd love to know what's going through Mr Handsy's mind now. I suspect he thought of himself as a bit of a lad then, a joker, a man's man, etc. I doubt he remembers groping me against the photocopier, but I hope he remembers the day he reduced a teenage filing clerkess, two months into her first job after leaving school, to tears.

I wonder if he is worried?

[ 11. November 2017, 10:01: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

I have been leery of posting in these threads partly because I'm worried that I will say something inappropriate, as is my wont. I also feel like I'm being a hypocrite if I condemn somebody for sexual harassment, although I do think I could counsel or advise a harasser about changing their behavior. I've acted inappropriately on two occasions in my life that I can identify, once as a teenager patting women on the arse in a crowded club (thank God I was pulled up), and once when I asked a woman out at work.

So that's why I've been quiet.

I do hope the allegations against Weinstein et al and in Britain represents a cultural shift. In Australia, the stats on sexual assaults, harassment and domestic violence are going in the wrong direction. We have had laws against sexual harassment in the workplace and elsewhere since the 1980's. There have been ads aimed at behavioral change intermittently over the years. The cops and the courts have been focused on domestic violence intentionally for the last decade. Maybe this will make a difference.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

Fuck a duck.

Lying in bed thinking. I don't want to overshare, which I do often I know, but it's important to me to be accurate.

I think there are two other suss incidents, both of which occurred at the beginning of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships.

Bloody hell.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

What's changed for me: after three waves of feminism and the most qualified USA Presidential candidate ever, men still don't get it and I have completely run out of patience.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

No disrespect Simontoad but the best advice in an avalanche situation is probably keep mouths closed.
In the current climate males across the Developed World must be racking their brains to try and filter out times they might have, even in a relatively innocuous way, behaved inappropriately towards a female during their independent lifetimes.

Maybe true cultural shifts, if is what is happening here, do have to start at the bottom and work their way up (no pun intended). But as we in this Country are only too aware, while Joe Bloggs is wringing his hands in confusion at the base of the heap it is generally those at the top of the who are the best protected....or have been up til now.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

I agree.
"Good Men" have nothing to contribute to the discussion at this point.

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Here is another superb article, expressing the spirit that animates many of us. (Mildly obscene, but alas, if you're one of the Me Toos then you have already seen what you didn't want to see.)

Thank you, Brenda.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

If you're in the right corner of Christendom there may be an ingrained culture of older men preying upon very young women.

[ 11. November 2017, 22:10: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I agree.
"Good Men" have nothing to contribute to the discussion at this point.

If I may suggest, they might want to go here in the "What do we do..." Purg thread. Some posts that might be of use.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

That is a good post GK. I plan to talk to my wife about this all in January, when she is no longer snowed under with her work. She's very good at cutting through my shit.

I am also convinced that we blokes who claim to be feminists or fellow travelers need to look at our own behavior with clear eyes first before we can:

(a) live up to our own professed beliefs; and therefore
(b) make a useful contribution to improving the way society works.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

simontoad--

Thanks. Talking to your wife sounds good, and being sensitive to her workload even better.

FYI: Louis CK, the comic who's currently tumbling down, had something of a reputation as a feminist.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
simontoad--

Thanks. Talking to your wife sounds good, and being sensitive to her workload even better.

FYI: Louis CK, the comic who's currently tumbling down, had something of a reputation as a feminist.

He does jokes that attempt to understand women’s experiences with men. Something very rare from men in comedy.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

lB--

Yes. I haven't seen much of his comedy, but I like some of it. And I've liked him on talk shows. He's done Colbert's show. And, if I correctly understood, he was supposed to be on Colbert's show last week, but cancelled.

I am soooo sick of finding out that someone I liked/respected has (allegedly) abused/assaulted. From the news, over many years, Stephen Collins, Woody Allen, Bill Cosby, and all the latest crowd. (And yes, they're celebs, and I obviously don't know them personally.)

It makes it hard to decide whether I can still *watch* their work, let alone enjoy it. I haven't seen any WA films in decades. A local station still runs "Fat Albert & The Cosby Kids", a wonderful, inspirational cartoon series that BC did in the '70s or so. He did all the voices, and the characters were based on childhood friends. I occasionally watched it, up until more and more allegations came out. I think SC's fall was the hardest for me. (ABC News) He had the lead in "Tales of the Gold Monkey", one of my favorite series. And he played Matt Decker's grown son in the first Start Trek movie. (Of course, there was the "7th Heaven" series, where he played a pastor. A local station recently started running it. I doubt I'll be able to watch it. For me, that show was a mixed bag; but there were good things in it.)

I'm beginning to feel like we need to put treatment centers for abusers, sex offenders, etc., every couple of blocks.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

It makes it hard to decide whether I can still *watch* their work, let alone enjoy it.

Bill Cosby was someone I admired. Undeniably one of the funniest, most creative comedians ever. But nothing he has done can bring me joy ever again. I will not watch or listen to anything he had something to do with.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

It makes it hard to decide whether I can still *watch* their work, let alone enjoy it.
Bill Cosby was someone I admired. Undeniably one of the funniest, most creative comedians ever. But nothing he has done can bring me joy ever again. I will not watch or listen to anything he had something to do with.

I think I could still enjoy his material if he had been a writer who created jokes for other people to deliver, not a comedian who actually delivered the jokes. Most of us never know or care who writes the jokes, but we do usually develop and emotional connection with the person who tells them.

I think it's this same sort of dichotomy that has allowed Roman Polanski to continue with a directing career, whereas I think Kevin Spacey is done like dinner.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Is Polanski the one who hid out in Europe for a long time?

If he's that one, there was something in the news about him in the last few years. The woman who was the girl he hurt has said she doesn't want to dredge it all up again. So that may be a factor, too.

[ 13. November 2017, 07:06: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Roman Polanski is still hiding out in Europe. Essentially he was convicted (i.e. found guilty by a court of law) of raping an underage girl and fled the US before he could be incarcerated for the crime. Given the current atmosphere, a Parisian retrospective of his work recently made a lot of people very angry.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I'd love to know what's going through Mr Handsy's mind now. I suspect he thought of himself as a bit of a lad then, a joker, a man's man, etc. I doubt he remembers groping me against the photocopier, but I hope he remembers the day he reduced a teenage filing clerkess, two months into her first job after leaving school, to tears.

I wonder if he is worried?

I'd been wondering about this too. My work experience week from school, when I was fifteen, (mid 1980s) was with a guy in a remote tucked away office. He liked to get nice and close - know what I mean? Up close and personal? I didn't realize how normal this would be in working life.

First thing I was told about my first boss was 'watch for his wandering hands'. The older women would tell him off, sometimes. But he reckoned he was Jack-the-Lad. I can still see the puckish little-boy grin on his face when he had just been 'tickling' you, or putting his hands on your waist, chest or behind. 'Who me? Do anything naughty? We're just having a bit of fun, aren't we?' With some of the older women he had a special trick of undoing the back of the bra - don't ask me how!

My second office had two regular well-known pervs. A younger and an older man. The older women would sometimes tell them to eff off, when they saw we younger girls didn't know how to respond. But it still sounds like a Carry On movie when you describe being chased around the filing stacks, or cornered in a stationary cupboard. It was completely ordinary behaviour. Just a typical part of your week's working life.

And my next office also had a couple of 'look out for this guy' types. Creepy types, who spoke to you and looked at you as if you were lying naked in front of them. Some of the women refused to visit one guy's office alone; which was awkward because there wasn't always another woman available to go with them, when they needed to get something done.

It's strange to think how completely 'normal' it all was.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

I think it's this same sort of dichotomy that has allowed Roman Polanski to continue with a directing career, whereas I think Kevin Spacey is done like dinner.

As far as people watching Polanski’s work? Maybe, for some Still staying to figure out how people justified working with the bastard.
But one place removed and the stench still reaches my nose. Merely not having to see the abuser directly isn’t a sufficient blind to enjoy their work.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

What a nightmare, Anselmina. And how we have been socialized, to accept it.
Far elsewhere on the internet a friend reports that a friend was in a crowd when a stranger began feeling her bottom. She turned around and punched him in the face. We online applauded, adding only the advice that if you have something heavy in your hand the pain of a blow is increased. A set of keys would do.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Good for her, Brenda!

Long ago, I read of an actress on a NYC subway, in a similar situation. She grabbed the creep's hand; held it up; and, in her best stage voice, said "And whose hand is THIS?"
[Cool]

This was part of an article (maybe in "Mademoiselle") about this kind of assault/harassment. Another part was a classroom of girls, where the teacher asked who had been through this kind of thing on the subway.

Every girl's hand went up.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

That sort of reaction from the last woman I groped when I was 18, a public dressing down, stopped my potential descent into being one of those men who women warned each other about. None of my mates would have had the maturity to confront me about it, but I'm so glad someone did.

As for Louis CK, I haven't followed the story but I saw a facebook headline suggesting that he thought his actions were consensual at the time, but that he now understands that the women involved were overawed by his position. Here's where GK's statement of the rules for men is useful.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Louis CK reportedly asked them if they wanted to see it, and they thought he was joking.

Ok, if he asked, that's at least better than not asking at all. But who in the world thinks it's ok to do that all???

(Unless already in a mutually-consensual sexual relationship.)

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

A useful but depressing question to contemplate is, have you ever viewed a penis that you didn't want/ask to see?
I wonder if there are any women who can say no.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Louis CK reportedly asked them if they wanted to see it, and they thought he was joking.

Ok, if he asked, that's at least better than not asking at all. But who in the world thinks it's ok to do that all???

(Unless already in a mutually-consensual sexual relationship.)

This is just my opinion; but it is really hard to believe he though it was OK if you listen to, or even read about, his routines. We humans are capable of compartmentalising and rationalisation, but this is not the same as not knowing.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

lB--

That may very well be true. I'm just sick of the whole thing.

I feel sorry for his family. I don't know if he currently has a SO; but he does have kids.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As far as people watching Polanski’s work? Maybe, for some Still staying to figure out how people justified working with the bastard.
But one place removed and the stench still reaches my nose. Merely not having to see the abuser directly isn’t a sufficient blind to enjoy their work.

When this whole batch of abuser news all started breaking, a few weeks ago, I saw a headline that an actor who'd just finished making a movie with Woody Allen is going to donate his entire salary to RAINN, an anti-abuse organization.

Wise man.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I've acted inappropriately on two occasions in my life that I can identify, once as a teenager patting women on the arse in a crowded club (thank God I was pulled up)

I had my arse felt on a number of occasions in clubs and at parties in my youth (by men and women). None of them felt like an assault - they all felt like a mild flirtation: an expression of interest that, should it be reciprocated, might lead to us finding somewhere quiet to "get to know each other better".

I was never interested in random sex, so neither responded to the advances nor did any arse-grabbing of my own, but there was no power differential and I didn't feel victimized in any way.

So I suppose I'm not surprised by the idea that people could think that arse-grabbing, asking people if they want to see your genitalia, and so on would be OK in some circumstances.

Posted by MaryLouise (# 18697) on :

The culture of intimidating women, inappropriate touching, telling 'dirty jokes' to women and insisting they laugh, mocking women for being 'prudish' or 'frigid', the more serious grabbing and harassment behind closed doors -- it has been so ubiquitous and as girls and women we just learned to look the other way.

What seems so obvious now in the wake of #MeToo was unthinkable back then. That in order to stop this hidden abuse, we need to talk about it in the workplace, at home, in schools and churches, lay charges, support others laying charges, bring the sexual abuse out into the open. Because that is the biggest deterrent for sex pests and rapists, the knowledge that there will be immediate and public consequences, a court case, fines or prison, job losses, social ostracism. To ensure they feel the shame, not us.

Never an easy choice, but it feels more possible now.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

A thought occurred to me:

Given that there are many, many accusers; and that many/most cases won't make it to court, either because the authorities are overloaded or the victims/survivors may not choose to go through with all that...

Would there be any use for a truth and reconciliation commission (TRC)? Like South Africa had, after apartheid.

I can see at least two serious problems:

--people who might otherwise have chosen to press charges or file lawsuits against their abusers might choose TRC instead;

--possibly neither side would have a lawyer, and thus not have help fighting for themselves.

It might be good for offenders (admitted or proven) to pay for therapy for their victims/survivors, AND for themselves. (Where possible. Most of the celebs could probably afford it.)

This is me kind of thinking aloud. Your thoughts?

[ 14. November 2017, 06:25: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What a nightmare, Anselmina. And how we have been socialized, to accept it.
Far elsewhere on the internet a friend reports that a friend was in a crowd when a stranger began feeling her bottom. She turned around and punched him in the face. We online applauded, adding only the advice that if you have something heavy in your hand the pain of a blow is increased. A set of keys would do.

Well, just to complicate things. Not many of us, that I'm aware of, saw it at all as a nightmare. Just a normal part of working life. Sometimes the blokes would get told where to go. But it was just one of those permanent and accepted elements of working with a crowd of people, that a couple of those people liked to grope or make sexy overtures.

Of course, it's possible that some women (even men) were being much more seriously pressured, assaulted etc, and we knew nothing about that. If 'superficial' touching and chasing etc was so accepted, then goodness knows what was going on elsewhere.

To add to the mix, my feelings about being annoyed in work by the gropers were a little different to how I felt when I was, still a schoolgirl in uniform, groped on public transport, where my response was to turn round to the guy and asking him very loudly, so everyone could hear, 'would you please not touch me like that?' I was angry with him in a way I wasn't with work colleagues, later on. Isn't that strange?

Could've saved my breath though. Everyone on the bus just pretended I hadn't spoken. I even told a male relative later about it, and he genuinelly seemed surprized that I wasn't at least partly flattered by the attention.

I think those early experiences partly informed my developing feminism, later in life, when I realized how completely accepted this kind of thing had been, and yet how completely unacceptable that sort of behaviour really was. What kind of a society where we creating for our younger folk.

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

I think it is difficult to go chasing after past incidents, unless rape. It often ends up with a he said/she said. Does that get us anywhere?

What this whole thing shows is that we need is a behavioral change, particularly on the part of men. They have got away with it for too long. We women need to stand up and say that we are people with feelings. Respect is the name of the game.

The root of this whole this is quite simply lack of respect for other people and failure to control oneself - usually on men's part. This has nothing to do with feminism but just plain good manners.

As women, for too many years, we have put up with men who have never grown up, who act like teens discovering what sex is. You would think that they would know by now.

I remember landing a hard backward kick on the shins to a guy on the Tube who was was feeling my bum......I was wearing cube heels. I hope he had a lovely bruise!
When I was a student working holidays in our local library, I was warned about "Handy Andy." He was a sad character: used the same tea bag all day, drying it out on the radiator and wasn't even that good at cataloguing books for processing. We kept clear.

There is no excuse for men putting their hands on a women's body, unless she has said she wants it verbally......no matter what their age! Males need to be taught to behave respectfully from young.

I wonder how men would feel if a strange women came up and rubbed herself against him or grabbed his bits?

Why do we need to touch a stranger or work colleague sexually anyway? Are men (and occasionally women) that perverted?

Society seems to be going backwards to the days when men thought they ruled and women were chattels. And look at the mess men have made - who starts the wars........ not usually women!

Men keep you hands to yourself! It's as simple as that. It's not a philosophical or sociological discussion, just respect and good manners.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I remember an incident, back when: someone I knew, didn't like much, very much a misogynist* who fancied himself as a gift to womankind. This evening he was all over a girl, she snogged him back for a bit, felt his genitals, told him he wasn't adequate and walked away. He was outraged.

At the same time I was dealing with men coming up and grabbing my breasts in the street and offering to pay me for sex - really difficult to walk away from that one, strangers, exposing themselves to me on the tube system regularly, masturbating next to me on train carriages. A company I worked for in the 1980s had a policy to send women home by cab if we worked later than 9pm as the public transport system was beyond unpleasant but actually dangerous. Rush hour journeys included being groped and/or rubbed up against.

* He argued for the male only membership policy for the college newspaper social club for years after women started working on the paper.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

I don't know if an amusing anecdote would provide a little comic relief to this discussion, but here goes:

I once worked for a law firm where one of the senior partners, whose name was Martin, was known to be the "all talk and no action" type when it came to women. One day the accounting manager, a rather, erm, ample woman, was walking by his office. He made some sort of remark to her, to which she answered: "Oh, Marty, I'd be so much woman for you I'd make you stutter!"

Another senior partner overheard the exchange. Shortly thereafter, Marty happened to be walking by his office. He called out: "Hey, M-M-M-Marty, come her a minute, will you?"

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

And the Onion does not fail to amuse. You can count on satire to come close to the truth.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
I think it is difficult to go chasing after past incidents, unless rape. It often ends up with a he said/she said. Does that get us anywhere?

If you have been reading the thread, it has been outlined why past events have been key in confirming abuse patterns.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And the Onion does not fail to amuse. You can count on satire to come close to the truth.

From the article:

quote:
Moore went on to say that he would nevertheless continue his run for the Senate despite the charges against him because while the norms had shifted, they had not shifted nearly as much in Alabama.

This is sick, funny, enraging, and probably accurate, all at the same time. I'd like a break from Poe's Law now, please.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

This will help. John Scalzi (a man of whom it has been said, if you find yourself on the opposing side from Scalzi then you are a bad guy) offers the soundest advice I have seen yet to men who are worried about the current situation. Read this, gentlemen, and you will -- well, I can't promise that you will feel better. But at least you'll know what to =do.=

An interesting point he makes is that a South African-style truth and reconciliation commission was not run by white people. It was set up after black people took over and were running South Africa. In other words, it was not the oppressors who were able to seek truth and reconciliation. Such things have to be offered by the oppressed, after the oppression has been put paid to.

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

Read that Brenda. Thanks for posting.

As someone with bi-polar disorder who knows people with bi-polar disorder, I don't dump friends for doing wrong. I try to pull them closer. Often guilt drives people away though. One friend who was jailed for fraud back in the 1980s took 30 years to come back. I'm glad he did.

[ 14. November 2017, 21:24: Message edited by: simontoad ]

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

sorry, that thing about dealing with friends who do wrong is an utterly personal response and not in any way a recommendation or advice to others, or indeed a claim that the author's suggested way to proceed, which is to consider what value there is in the friendship, is wrong.

I'd go on, but it's a tangent.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Thank God. Christian pundits are calling for us to seize our faith and take it back from the loons.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Brenda, thanks for that Scalzi link!

---

Just for some balance: I know that boys and men are abused, too--and that's every bit as bad as when girls and women are abused.

I don't know what the current books are. But, back in the early '90s, there was a men's book called "Victims No Longer", by Mike Lew. IIRC, it was hailed as the first book for male survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Hopefully, there've been more books since then.

For women, try "The Courage To Heal", by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis. There's a main book, a workbook, and a couple of other related books. It's been through a couple of editions, and may still be in print. I highly recommend it.

Sorry, I don't know of resources for non-binary gendered folks, but there may will be some.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A useful but depressing question to contemplate is, have you ever viewed a penis that you didn't want/ask to see?
I wonder if there are any women who can say no.

Me. I can say no. So there's at least one. Doesn't mean I haven't been groped/squeezed/frotted/leered at, at work and elsewhere. But no flashing, no pxts.

Posted by Beautiful Dreamer (# 10880) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A useful but depressing question to contemplate is, have you ever viewed a penis that you didn't want/ask to see?
I wonder if there are any women who can say no.
Me. I can say no. So there's at least one. Doesn't mean I haven't been groped/squeezed/frotted/leered at, at work and elsewhere. But no flashing, no pxts.

I don’t know if this counts but I’ve been shown penises I didn’t want to see *then* (a boyfriend pushing me). I’ve had the other stuff, though, albeit not at work as much as elsewhere. Also, it doesn’t necessarily have to be *you* being targeted-it can make the whole environment feel toxic if that kind of stuff goes around unchecked. You have to constantly be on the defensive so you won’t be “next”.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

This is a (free) click from, of all places, Vogue. What times we live in, when the flagship fashion magazine can publish an article explaining exactly why it's so insulting to say 'if true.'

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