Thread: Crappy Choruses & Horrible Hymns redux Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
In a spasm of efficiency, and in anticipation of the new church year, I have moved Alaric the Goth's magnum opus to the archive--all thirteen pages of it.

Now donch'all go rushing to read it all at once, but do review it before posting on this thread, its continuation.

tomb
hellhost
 


Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
I thought you said it was the crappy choruses and horrible hymns re-mix. When is it coming out on CD?

Louise
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
I will kill myself first, thanks all the same.

T
 


Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
i never read ANY of that thread

P
 


Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
I will kill myself first, thanks all the same.
T

Oh,don't do that Tomb....Hell couldn't possibly manage without you.....
It would lack...well....a certain something.....
 


Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Oh,don't do that Tomb....Hell couldn't possibly manage without you.....
It would lack...well....a certain something.....

besides which, then wood would think he'd won (we all know he wouldn't have - buthe'd think it)...

and how would 'frin police hell without you?

don't do tomb, i beg of you

viki
 


Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
besides which, then wood would think he'd won (we all know he wouldn't have - buthe'd think it)...

and how would 'frin police hell without you?

don't do tomb, i beg of you


What do you mean, would think?

Anyway. Apart from Sarkysteak's misunderestimation (thanks, Dubya) of me, I agree. Don't kill yourself, Tomb.

I'd have no one to make me look good.
 


Posted by Arietty (# 45) on :
 
tomb don't do it. We all love ya, hon. (Gets out onion and weeps copiously into special SOF hankie).

But if you do, could you tell us who will get your organ?
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Ah shucks.

tomb modestly digs a razor-clawed toe into the carpet and scratches at the patch of dry scales on his spine. He's touched that so many people care so very deeply and quickly wipes away a tear before it drops onto his desk and eats a hole the French polish.

But back to Crappy Choruses and Horrible Hymns.

tomb had the misfortune of attending a funeral of a woman who was his contemporary this weekend.

It was at a charismatic/non-denominational cum evangelical church up in the mountains.

The husband of the deceased had requested "worship music." So the congregation was led through spirited renditions of "Shout to the North," "Days of Elijah," "We will dance (on the streets that are golden)," and several other similar pieces.

Now, don't get tomb wrong. He has actually been known to program every one of the songs he sang. Just not at a friggin' funeral.

It reinforced tomb's intention to be buried out of the American 1928 Prayer Book, the burial office of which never mentions the name of the deceased and which programs a stupefying number of obscure Psalms.

tomb hastens to add, however, that he is not a hidebound traditionalist. Although he does not Believe in cremation, he has told his wife that he wants to be pickled and has given special instructions about the designs on the exterior of his canopic jar.

But back to the rant. tomb disapproves of funerals that masquerade as wakes. Five minutes into the service (after the first spasm of Worship was over), the husband of the deceased got up to speak (10 minutes worth). tomb muttered to hisself that he needed a drink. At a wake, this wouldn't be an issue; at a funeral, it was a Big Problem.

After two hours of reminiscences, when the service was less than half over and the Liturgical Dancers were preparing to Flit About to yet another Praise Chorus, tomb and his wife had to leave, having a previous engagement.

As they drove away, they could see the shadows of the dancers in the lighted sanctuary and could vaguely hear the {boom} {boom} of the bass guitar through the walls.

tomb found occasion to give infinite thanks to Almighty God that he is too busy to last through a funeral. It got him out of a horrible situation.

He grieved for his friend while driving down the freeway toward town. It was the first holy moment he had experienced.
 


Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
Posted by tomb:
quote:
I have moved Alaric the Goth's magnum opus to the archive--all thirteen pages of it.

Gothic warrior groweth angry!
You might have let the thread get to a SIGNIFICANT NO. of replies, like it was up to 636 and you might have waited for another 30, say!

 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Too bad.
 
Posted by rachel_o (# 1258) on :
 
OK, to really get things going on the horrible and crappy front, how about this...

I want to be a tree that's bearing fruit,
that God has pruned and caused to shoot,
oh, up in the sky so very, very high
I want to be, I want to be a blooming tree.

Chorus:

God has promised his Holy Spirit will water our roots and help
us grow;
listen and obey, and before you know it, your fruit will start to grow,
grow, grow, grow, grow!

You'll be at tree that's bearing fruit,
with a very, very, very strong root;
bright colours like daisies, more fruit than Sainsbury's*
you'll be a blooming tree.

Someone told me about this at CU, and I thought they were joking. Sadly, they informed me that it was real. I nwas VERY impressed that my GLE CU didn't take it on as a theme song, and in fact hated it with a passion.

Can you do worse than this?

Rachel.

PS... I found the full words on the web. Thankfully they ahve not yet implanted into my brain. Take care not to look at them for too long, however....


* Sainsbury's is a supermarket chain, in case any non-English shipmates were wondering!
 


Posted by rachel_o (# 1258) on :
 
I am booting this up, just in case nobody has read my very nauseating lyrics, which I was hoping would incite some response!

R.
 


Posted by Stooberry (# 254) on :
 
it's a doug horely song, isn't it?
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rachel_o:
I am booting this up, just in case nobody has read my very nauseating lyrics, which I was hoping would incite some response!


R.


I'm speechless.

Moo
 


Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
What was truly terrifying was that I was able to mentally create a suitable happy-clappy, mindlessly cheerful tune for the lyrics before I had even finished reading them once through! [shudders]

I'm afraid that the fivefold repetition of "grow" is now permanently implanted in my brain.

Obviously these lyrics are the work of the devil!
 


Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Totally in agreement with tomb on funerals. My boss has a rule--a good one, mind you-- that people get the music that they want at funerals. Good ministerial practice requires me to say very little about the things I've heard at the Crem, but, since this thread has been provided by the Providence of Hell, I hereby offer up "All Things Bright And Beautiful" as my least favorite funereal ditty. It is always chosen when people "don't want the service to get too sad and solemn".
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Bring on the Crappy Choruses Remix, say I--I am convinced that neither death nor life nor principalities nor powers nor anything else will separate tomb from Hell.
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Funeral hymns. hmmm. One of the standards in the local RC churches here (where I cantor at funerals) is "How Great Thou Art". I've never figured out quite how it fits a funeral, especially with the typical American RCs who never sing all the verses of a hymn. So you end up singing two verses about mountain grandeur, twittering birds, and silvery moons and then abruptly ending. Drives me nuts!
 
Posted by Maestro (# 1881) on :
 
A seasonal one from the English Hymnal, not crappy - just hilarious.

Saint Joseph stood beside the cradle
and embraced the Holy Child,
Then he knelt upon the sod..........
 


Posted by kennedy (# 90) on :
 
Thank you maestro. That is very good indeed.
 
Posted by Dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Two of the naffest religious pap tunes I've heard recently are one called "My Sweet Lord" by someone named Harry something, and a dirge called "Imagine" by a John Lennon, not to be confused with the now deceased parish priest of St Columba's, Chester.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I don't know if these are still popular, but there were a number of RC hymns, all extremely sad, that, for a reason I've never been able to find out, used to be popular at weddings. (Including them at funerals would have at least had some logic.)

The words all seemed to be on the theme of having the Virgin Mary intercede for poor sinners when they die. There was one, "Mother ,At Your Feet is Kneeling," for which I don't remember all of the lyrics, but I clearly recall "Mother, when my Jesus calls me, from this world so dark and drear..." Though not as popular at weddings, there was another with words about "Mother of Christ, star of the sea, pray for the sinner, pray for me."

Of course, my worst fit of giggling came when a couple I knew who did like classical music (but understood no Italian, and did not bother to ask for a translation of the words) used the Italian art song (actually not at all liturgical) "Virgin, tutto amor." It's a wonderful piece of music, though very dramatic, but the words speak of the sad lament of the sinner asking for God's mercy.
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Newman, you *must* get a copy of the book "Why Catholics Can't Sing." The author spends two chapters on "Mother, at your feet is kneeling."

It seems that JFK and Jackie had it at their wedding, and it was also sung at JFK's funeral.

It was one of only a handful of "standards" of the pre-Vatican II age.
 


Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I hereby offer up "All Things Bright And Beautiful" as my least favorite funereal ditty.

Monty Python's All Things Dull and Ugly
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
.... Good ministerial practice requires me to say very little about the things I've heard at the Crem, but, since this thread has been provided by the Providence of Hell, I hereby offer up "All Things Bright And Beautiful" as my least favorite funereal ditty....

It is, perhaps, my disordered imagination, Amos, but I assume the song is sung as the coffin is sliding into the fire? Bright, perhaps, but certainly not beautiful, I daresay.
 


Posted by CJ (# 2166) on :
 
I probably shouldn't resurrect this thread after so long, but I've been reading it and its archived predecessor while off work with 'flu and have laughed myself well again. Thanks to all; it's wonderful to know I'm not alone in refusing to sing abhorent things, giggling helplessly at things the song writers didn't mean to say, and cringing at the sub Lloyd Weber nonsense.

Have to share this gem in the 'do we really think childen are that stupid' category:

Jump, jump, jump, jump,
Jumpity jump, jump, jump,
jump, jump, jump, jump,
Jumpity jump for Jeeeesus

Hop, hop, hop...you get the idea. It went on for four verses, with actions
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Damn.

And I thought I'd managed to kill this miserable thread.
 


Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
Oh, but I've missed this thread so much. Shortly before Christmas, I attended the ordination of a friend of mine whose musical taste is usually impeccable. He chose "Earth and All Stars"---discussed on the original thread---as the recessional. As I was putting on my coat, a woman nearby said to me, "What a lovely hymn," and without thinking I blurted out, "I always knew that one as 'Loud flushing toilets.'" She moved away quickly
 
Posted by Thomasine (# 2178) on :
 
This is funnier if you know the tune, but the worst one I've heard for a while goes like this...

When Jesus heard that his very best friend
Called Lazarus had died,
He went to the grave and he cried REAL TEARS
And he told him to come alive.

It was a miracle, It was a miracle,
It was a miracle, and it's true-oo-oo
It was a miracle, it was a miracle,
cos that's what Jesus did do.

There's another verse I don't remember, and the piano does this odd 'dum de dum' thing after 'died'...
 


Posted by simon 2 (# 1524) on :
 
In refference to the tree song, I read it as 'then I'll be a bloomin tree'. Bloomin as in 'aye that were a bloomin fine pint'.

Since you have no choice when you are christened and half the choice when you are married why shouldnt you have all the choice when you die. For me I think happy stuff, seeing as we dont have wakes usually over here in the uk.
 


Posted by Steve_R (# 61) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simon 2:

Since you have no choice when you are christened and half the choice when you are married why shouldnt you have all the choice when you die.

It is, after all, your last chance to really wind the organist up and s/he can't answer back!
 


Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Oh, no, Thomasine, I can hear the melody for that horrible "lazarus died" thing, too! I have this sinking feeling that at the age of 50 I have finally found my true calling: composing really disgusting, perky tunes to accompany even more disgusting and perverted and stupid and... lyrics for children's christian choir ditties. Obviously I did something *really* bad and God is pissed! (You have to understand that I can't come up with a tune to save my life under normal conditions.)
 
Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
This Sunday during Communion, we will be singing a little ditty with a refrain that runs: Bind us together, Lord/Bind us together/with chords that cannot be broken.../bind us together in Love.

It's actually not too bad, and the verse fits the propers quite nicely.

Still, I am incapable of thinking of it as anything other than "Bondage for Jesus."

tomb
 


Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Bind us together, Lord/Bind us together/with chords that cannot be broken.../bind us together in Love.

But chords can be broken (arpeggios) and aren't very helpful for tying things with either! Cords however are a different matter.

As to the hymn I liked it when I was about 10 but have gone off it over time.

Carys
 


Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
simon 2, I think the 'blooming' thing is supposed to be taken both ways. Ah, cutting edge humour.

Back in the old, old days of the Ship I started a thread called 'musical irreverence' where someone posted "bind us together with cords and black leather and tie my legs to the bedpost"...

Lazarus - I'm afraid the second verse is imprinted on my memory:

So they took the bandages off him
And he stood up strong and straight
And the people around all ooh'd and aah'd
As he sat right down and ate

Even worse, however, was one with the refrain:

Come down, Zacchaeus, come down from the tree
Come down, Zacchaeus, give the Lord his tea
 


Posted by Weslian (# 1900) on :
 
Does anyone else find it impossible to sing the otherwise reasonable song: 'All I once held dear', without thinking of Danny Kaye's 'Ugly Duckling' when singing 'you're my all, you're the best, you're my joy, my righteousness.'??
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
And he LOOKED.. and he SAW.. and he SAID.. "I AM a swan! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

I`mmmmmmmmmmm Not such an ugly duckling
No feathers all stubby and brown
And the other birds in so many words say
*mch* The best in town
*mch* The best
*mch-mch* The best
*mch-mch* The best in town

I suppose there is a bit of a similarity, now you come to mention it. Myself, I really like that song, except for the "you`re the best" bit, which really spoils it.
 


Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Weslian:
Does anyone else find it impossible to sing the otherwise reasonable song: 'All I once held dear', without thinking of Danny Kaye's 'Ugly Duckling' when singing 'you're my all, you're the best, you're my joy, my righteousness.'??

lol

So I'm not the only one. Gets me every time!

And what about "I'm Special" - which to me has the same pathetic...empathetic....(emetic) feel to it as that sweet little ditty by Keith Harris and Orville. You know - all together now:

I wish I could fly
Right up to the sky but I..... (nearest thing to a vomiting smiley)
 


Posted by madkaren (# 1033) on :
 
I got home from a night out yesterday to find my husband had got out a pile of music from the summer camps his community helped run. We found:

Scratch another head
Scratch a head next to you
Scratch another head and sing along....

I'm not going to torture you further with the rest

Madkaren
 


Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
I know that one! They rhyme "next to ya" with Alleluia. As in

Allalalala-lalalalaleluia
Allalalalalale, Allalalalalale,
Allalalala-lalalalaleluia
Allalalalalale, Alleluia

Hold another hand, hold the hand next to ya..

(the couple in front of me at that point obeyed gladly)

Hug another friend, hug the friend next to ya..

Kiss another friend..

(the couple in front of me started off on a marathon snogging session that lasted the rest of the event)

I think it stopped there (at any rate, I`m pretty sure there wasn`t a "shag another friend" verse..)
 


Posted by Gill B (# 112) on :
 
'You are my hiding place' starts off like 'The Phantom of the Opera' so I keep expecting Michael Crawford to appear in clerical robes to conduct the service.
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
We sang 'All I Once Held Dear' at church Sunday morning. This was a song which I could get through before by thinking about the good lines, and ignoring the naff/trite (such as 'you're the best' ). Tahnks to this thread I was reduced to helpless laughter as I imagined the Ugly Duckling lyrics instead. This caused *bad looks* from the holier-than-thou couple who sit across the aisle from me

I hope you all burn in Hell for this

Viki
 


Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
Ha! *We* had "Bind us together", and I couldn`t help but think of the bondage version.. and ended up trying to finish it! ("Strip me and tether me
Naked, and leather me
Bind us together in lust")

Robin is seriously thinking of complaining that we were made to sing something so trite and annoying. But that`s the sort of thing that happens when the warden (a man with taste) is away.

As a matter of fact, the verses are rather worse than the chorus. The chorus is merely twee. But "Born with the right to be clean" is bad theology. (We don`t have rights, we don`t *deserve* to be made clean, we are made clean only because God loves us.) And who is the third verse addressed to? Some lines seem to imply it`s us, others that it`s Jesus. There`s an alternative set of verses at the back of Mission Praise that are better in their theology (though they don`t scan any better).

Ultimately, it`s a totally unsuitable song for singing in church (especially as an introit hymn, which is how we had it, played on the organ). It`s for strumming on the guitar round a campfire or in a sitting-room, or singing unaccompanied when there are only a few of you. And it`s still not very good then.
 


Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
Hymns Old and New now has the second verse lines

quote:
Fit for the Glory of God
......
born with the right to be free
......

Which seem just as bad.
 


Posted by Charismanic (# 2200) on :
 
If I were a butterfly...to the tune of Eastenders. Horror Incarnate.

Or just as bad; Shine Jesus Shine to the tune of Grease. Both possible, and both hideously performed at St Mary Bredin, Canterbury.
 


Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Though this approach was far from universal, I easily can recall, during my young adult years (late 1960s-early 1970s), when two ghastly approaches were possible. The first was when popular songs were "analysed," some vague connection to religious content (which the author of the lyrics is unlikely to have intended) would be detected, and said song either was the topic of an article, used in a discussion group at church, or used in worship. The second, on the same theme, was when some local church "musician" would use a popular song's melody and compose new lyrics to be used in a worship service.

Oddly enough, I cannot remember specific instances in great detail (though I vaguely recall, when I spoke at a retreat for young adults during the 1970s, that they sang something about "I'm looking for space, and to find out who I am")... perhaps a lapsed memory is merciful on some conditions. However, enjoying this thread as I am, I ask others with similar memories to fill in the blanks.
 


Posted by Kevin - Aberystwyth Student (# 1264) on :
 
With regards to your 2nd category, familiar tunes to which someone make's up words, I offer the following. We used to occasionally sing this awful chorus at our Family Eucharist to the tune of 'Match of the Day'

'Why don't you put your trust in Jesus,
and ask him to come in,
He saw or need from up in heaven
and died to save our sin;
Why don't you take him as your captain,
and crown him as your king,
For he'll love and help and guide you
he will never ever fail.

Clap-Clap-Clap- Jesus!'

I am not sure who wrote it though!
 


Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
NO - Did you ever see the christian lyrics set to 'WonderWall'?

It was the way the write had tried *so* hard to keep closely to the original lyrics, but make them to God instead. And he *almost* got it rhyming!

Viki
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
Ha! *We* had "Bind us together", and I couldn`t help but think of the bondage version.. and ended up trying to finish it! ("Strip me and tether me
Naked, and leather me
Bind us together in lust")

Hmmm. Well done, and it scans better than the original, which isn't, I suppose, saying much.

I wonder if we couldn't expand the scope of this thread by listing *actual* songs that would be suitable for people with various emotional, physical, and personality disorders.

"Pass it on" immediately comes to mind for people afflicted with communicable diseases. I suppose it would also work for anybody afflicted with pyromania: "It only takes a spark to get a fire going/" etc.

"Shout to the North" would be an excellent theme song for a television weather reader--particularly one burnt out by reporting winter storms. I'm assuming, you'll note, that being a meteorologist is a personality disorder. Certainly the way they behave on television leads to that conclusion.

And how about "Whispering Hope" for the schizophrenics?

And having thoroughly explored "Bind us together" for bondage enthusiasts, how about expanding the repertoire with "Draw us with the Spirit's tether"?

Others?

tomb

[fixed my own stinkin' UBB code]

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: tomb ]
 


Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
"Have you seen Jesus my Lord?" for those who constantly misplace things (is there a word for that?) or for the visually challenged.
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
'When I Needed a Neighbour, Were You There?' For the amnesiacs among us

Viki
 


Posted by Thomasina (# 2178) on :
 
At the time of the Foot and Mouth crisis, did anyone else's church sing 'All Creation Groans and Travails' which was written for the cattle plague of 18-something-or-other and (I think) reprinted in The Times.

It was all pretty dire, but one line gave me a particularly loud, prolongued and embarrassing laughing fit. It was an earnest prayer that:

"Our sheep may bring forth thousands
And ten thousands in the streets."

It brought to mind such a vivid picture that even when the main laughter had subsided (thanks to angry glances from a more senior member of my choir), I was unable to prevent myself from emitting the odd giggle throughout the rest of the service.
 


Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Hey big Daddy
You up there
Tune in to
Our special prayer

Make our world a better place
Help us save the human race
Give us food to feed our faces
As we’re put through our paces
Keep us safe from evil’s harm
Be our safe-ty alarm

You’re in charge
Oh you’re so cool
Cos’ you ain’t
No man’s fool

Yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck I was subjected to this recently, and it has a tune as dire as the words! It's a kind of rap (i.e. it tries to be a rap, but fails miserably due to lack of scansion )

Can you spot what this is a modernisation of?

Answers on a postcard to the usual address

Viki
 


Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
I prefer the txt mssg version!
 
Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
Right. Hello.

I had been resisting joining this thread because this is a subject I happen to feel very strongly about.

But a recent experience has changed all that. I just need to check the furious face is working :
yes? Right. Here goes.

This week I went off to cell group, leaving husband (who'd had a foul day and didn't want to talk to anyone) at home.

When I arrived I had two new songs inflicted upon me. One was entitled Adjust to the Dove, and the second, The Waters are Breaking.

I don't really think I need go on, but I will. I can't actually recall many of the words to either, but the chorus of the first went:
Come Holy Spirit
Come Holy Spirit
To rise above the Mountains
We must adjust to the Dove.

The second included a line beginning 'I feel like pushing' but strangely didn't have anything along the lines of 'it's been 36 hours and I've had enough, give me more pain relief' or 'this is all your fault, I'm never letting you anywhere near me again'.

When I got back husband and I had a good laugh, but now I'm just

Who in their right mindcan possiblythink that any such DRIVEL can be appropriate to worship God?

I've got myself all cross now, I'm going to have to go.

I would have taken the sheet of words to 'share' with others, but I was scared it might be interpreted as a positive response.
 


Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Welcome, Birdie. My eyes are streaming because your post had me laughing so much! Your assessment is quite correct, of course, but on one point you are sadly mistaken. None of the people who write and propagate such "hymns" are by any means in their right minds!

I'm glad to see the resurection of this thread - it's my favourite. Someone I know was telling me of a hymn called "The Angel Gabriel," which she was taught by nuns at school. I'd never heard of it - perhaps one of the nuns was the composer - and it loses much when one cannot hear the bizarre tune, but these are the words as I recall:

Verse:
The Angel Gabriel declared to Mary,
That she would be God's mother you see.
And on the Cross, Jesus our brother,
Said behold thy mother.

Chorus:
Hail, Mary, mother of God,
Lady in blue, I love you,
Hail Mary, mother of God,
Mary is my mother too.
 


Posted by Tax Collector (# 2044) on :
 
Crappie and annoying songs (from any era and any stable) =
any ones that overuse words along the lines of, 'Jesus died on the treeeee', 'he died for meeee', 'at Calvareeeee', 'so I can go freeee'

Anything for a rhyme.

 


Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
You forgot 'at thirty-threeee'...

More info please on the 'dove' and 'breaking waters' songs. I've just got to see those words for myself!

I've heard rumours of a 'prayer of Jabez' chorus asking God to 'enlarge my borders'. As a dedicated Weight Watcher, there's no way I'm asking God to enlarge my anything!

Could be a useful song for managers of large American bookstores though.
 


Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
I will try and get hold of the words for the two songs mentioned. You must understand that this is a risky mission.

I lead worship on a Sunday morning occasionally and I can't help be scared that asking for more details of these songs will mean people then expect to hear them.... I have already decided what I will say if I'm ever singing as back-up and someone schedules these songs, as I can't, in all conscience, sing them!

I can't shake off the image I have of God, in heaven, listening to us, and saying 'eh?'

I'll be back when I've found them!

Birdie
 


Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
quote:
Birdie wrote:
When I arrived I had two new songs inflicted upon me. One was entitled Adjust to the Dove....

It is perhaps my profoundly unregulated imagination, but this immediately made me think of Leda and the Swan.

tomb

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: tomb ]
 


Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
since tomb has closed the thread I was going to reply on I'll say it here.

For a song to be become the new 'shine Jesus shine' It has to be sung in places like here where 'shine Jesus shine' is really modern and He has to appear on songs of Praise.
 


Posted by Atticus (# 2212) on :
 
I hate that song that has a middle part about dancing:
I Could Sing of Your Love Forever(which the song attempts to mimick by indeed, repeating itself, you guessed it, forever)

"Oh I feel like dancing
It's foolishness I know,
But when the world has seen the light,
they will dance with joy like we're dancing now."

I always want to scream,
"I don't feel like dancing,
it's not just foolishness, it's bullsh!t,
the world has seen the light, and they crucified it,
AND NOBODY IS DANCING NOW!
Furthermore you're all sitting on your under-excersized McDonald's fed arses with nothing moving at all but your bloody hands waving in the air!"

Which is why I skip the music part of the service and time my arrival for the sermon and communion, what ever happened to "What a friend we have in Jesus" and "Amazing Grace" There's a song you can sing. My favorite is the Doxology. "...praise Father Son and Holy Ghooooooost. Aaaaaamen." in pleasant harmony can make my spine tingle.
 


Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
Sorry didnt know about this thread...sorry
 
Posted by simon 2 (# 1524) on :
 
That old hymn about the trump of God. For the flatulent choir.
 
Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
Jumping back to the "christian lyrics to pop songs to show just how incredibly hip and trendy we can be" I've got burned into my brain some "youth" service at the large charismatic house church (though we met in a school and a swimming baths and if that hasn't given it away yet, oh well) back in, oh, I guess the late 80s.

Some pop/rap type song of the day, had the refrain "No money man can win my love, it's sweetness that I'm thinking of" ... and we were inflicted to, of course, "it's JESUS That I'm thinking of" sung (badly) over an even worse kareoke backing track by two rather daringly clad young women.

And I've never been able to get it out of my head since. I think they did one or two others, but those, along with the verses to said song, are obliviated in the mists of time and my ageing brain.
 


Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
And a current "peeve"...

One of the favourite songs at the Catholic Community here in Nottingham seems to be a little ditty called "Zion".

The refrain of which is:

"Zion, holy mountain, holy city
Lead me on to the Father
Sacred road
I set my face like flint for you Jerusalem
My greatest joy."

Is it just me, or can /anyone/ make any sense out of this? "I set my face like flint?" *boggles quietly*.

Unfortunately we're doing it this Sunday. I'm sorely tempted to go to the 11am Latin Mass at the Cathedral instead...
 


Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
I think Christ, as prophesied by Isaiah, grimly set his face like flint at his suffering and stubbornly went on.

There`s another song which uses that line. I can`t remember much of it, but it does go

Setting our faces like flint
We`ll walk into the light

with such a cheery bouncy tune that it makes a mockery of the whole idea that we`re meant to be setting our faces like flint to the prospect of *suffering*!
 


Posted by Little Miss Chatterbox (# 86) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:

There`s another song which uses that line. I can`t remember much of it, but it does go

Setting our faces like flint
We`ll walk into the light

with such a cheery bouncy tune that it makes a mockery of the whole idea that we`re meant to be setting our faces like flint to the prospect of *suffering*!


It was called 'We shall stand', and was a favourite in the early 90's. It went something like:

We shall stand
With our feet on the rock
Whatever men may say
We'll lift your name up hi-igh
We shall waaaaalk
Through the darkest night
Setting our faces like flint
We'll walk into the liiight


Hopefully that's now all stuck in your heads

(PS I did quite like it at the time )
 


Posted by Cuttlefish (# 1244) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Birdie:
Adjust to the Dove[/i]

I would have thought that you, of all people would have appreciated this one. Now, can someone find me a song including a line about cephalopods?
 


Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
quote:
Little Miss Chatterbox reminded us all:
It was called 'We shall stand', and was a favourite in the early 90's. <snip>
Hopefully that's now all stuck in your heads

Ach. So it is. And the "Zion" one has a similarly bouncy feel to it. All most un-flint-like.
 


Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
Inanna said
quote:
I set my face like flint for you Jerusalem My greatest joy."

setting your face like flint comes from Isaiah 50 vs 7 'Because the Sovereign Lord helps me, I will not be disgraced.
Therefore have I set my face like flint,
and I know I will not be put to shame'

Basically to be determined to reach Jerusalem in the context of your song. Now does that mean heaven
 


Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
Back, triumphant! Hope you're all ready for this:

Bitterness is poisonous to my soul
Un-forgiveness makes the heart grow cold...
O to forgive and be forgiven
Release and be release.
We were created to be free.
To rise above the mountains
We must adjust to the dove....

Holy Spirit come
Holy Spirit come
To rise above the mountains...
We must adjust to the dove...

Quarelling is damaging this I know
With forgiveness the anointing flows...
O to show mercy and to know mercy
Grace and know grace
Filling our lives with peace again
To rise above the mountains
We must adjust to the dove

It's not actually as bad as I remember it.

I can only bring myself to give you the fisr verse of the other one:

The waters have broken
All across this land
Birthing a new dawn
I don't fully understand
But hwew I am
Watching, Watching
The Earth is groaning
There's pain within this land
I feel like pushing
I don't fully understand
But here I am
Praying, shaking
Anticipating... something...
Better than before, it's got to be
And expecting... something...
Greater than we've ever known
A new thing...
From the ancient spring.

I bet you all though I'd made it all up. I have to confess that I quite like the line about the ancient spring, but I think that's a reaction against churches who tend to behave as though Jesus was born in 1962. If you know what I mean.

In some ways I feel quite bad about posting this...after all some people obviously love them and I know God can use anything to speak to people. But I can't forget the horror when I was handed the sheet of words....

sigh.

Cheers
Birdie
 


Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
oops... apologies for the typos above. I'm sure you all know what I meant!
 
Posted by Cuthbert (# 2044) on :
 
Used to visit a young offenders' institute with a group of eager young Christians to lead the mid-wek service.

There was the time when one bright spark decided we should sing:

"Jesus take me as I am
I can come no other way..."

Needless to say, the inmates (with lots of tittering) saw meanings to the word that the songwriter had not even imagined!
 


Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
We did a couple of new songs on Sunday and once again Christian Music is leading the way. First up was A delightful ditty which started off with the line "Two sins have we commited".Yeah and the rest.

Next was another stinker whose only line I can remember is

"Judgment is good.Mercy is Best"

Stood there halfway between laughing and just going What? One day we may do a good new song at church.Huh.Fat chance.
 


Posted by Cuttlefish (# 1244) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:
"Two sins have we commited".Yeah and the rest.
"Judgment is good.Mercy is Best"

Musicman, you're a genius. You just formed a rhyming couplet which scans perfectly (or as well as many others). Keep working on it and you'll have a complete chorus to teach your church by Sunday.

Cuttle.
 


Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
you might like to look at this great web page....
http://www.wibsite.com/wibblethorpe/fridgemagnet.htm

I love it!
 


Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cuttlefish:
Musicman, you're a genius.
.


At last my gift is recognised by the rest of the world.Watch Out Kendrick here I come.
 


Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by da_musicman:

Next was another stinker whose only line I can remember is

"Judgment is good.Mercy is Best"


I think the song is Greater grace
and i like the words...sorry
null
 


Posted by GeoffH (# 133) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Atticus:
I hate that song that has a middle part about dancing:
I Could Sing of Your Love Forever(which the song attempts to mimick by indeed, repeating itself, you guessed it, forever)"


When this forst came out our worship leader had scrawled on the bottome of his music copy
"repeat 29 times to fade"

I think he was joking
 


Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
last night, in my dreams, some of these songs came back to haunt me... I dreamt I was in the clappy happy church of my youth!
Ah dear!
 
Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
I remember our church mission group doing a parody version of "Jesus take me as I am" based around our mission leader of the time:

"Make me like a David Stone
Six foot two and finely combed"

Of course, this was also the group which turned "Ascribe greatness to our God the Rock" into the following:

Ascribe lateness to our faulty clock
It's works are dirty and both its hands are bust (repeat)
A clock of latefulness and completely rusty
Good and uptight are we... (repeat)

Not to mention the new modern re-working of Jesus wants me for a sunbeam: "I wanna be an LED for Je-e-e-esus"
 


Posted by Nancy Winningham (# 91) on :
 
Camp song, never ending:

I may never
March in the infantry
Ride with the calvary
Shoot the artillary
I may never
Fly o'er the enemy
But I'm in the Lord's Army!

I'm in the Lord's Army!
I'm in the Lord's Army!

(Start over, with actions. Once sung for over half an hour in the van as we left Camp Lutherhaven.)
 


Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Over half an hour!

I just mentally ran through it three times to figure out how to transition back to the "verse" and that was horrible enough.
Were there adults on this bus? Did the church pay for their psychiatric care?
 


Posted by gkbarnes (# 1894) on :
 
There was a song at Spring Harvest (I can't remember it's name), which had the lines;
quote:
You give the baren woman healing
She'll dance for joylikethe mother of children.

I actually paused during that.
 


Posted by Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
Am I the only one who has had to endure the musical atrocity known only as "I leap up high".

I am, well let me share. Remember that all this is accompanied by actions.

"I leap up high and I touch the ground
I touch my knees and I turn around
I've got to (Woo-hoo)praise the Lord"

The next stanza includes the line

"I might look silly, but that's all right, I've got to (woo-hoo) praise the Lord".

Just so everyone knows that the truly pious person will be jumping around like a loon and not standing at the back trying to work out how the same God who inspired Bach was also responsible for this drivel.

Thank you for letting me get that particularly traumatic experience off my chest.
 


Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
the version i know of that is
i reach up high
i touch the ground
i stanp my feet
and i turn around

look on the bright side...it could be
Oh jesus thou hast promised to the cheesyest tune possible.....i was cringing in the pew....
(scared for life by st georges parade..we had no matter what played on the organ once......aaaagggggghhhhh)
 


Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Yaffle:
[QB]Am I the only one who has had to endure the musical atrocity known only as "I leap up high".

QB]



aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!

No, Yaffle, you're not.
 


Posted by Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
sophs, your recollection of the lines is probably more correct than my own. I have been doing my best to blot out the memory.
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sophs:

look on the bright side...it could be
Oh jesus thou hast promised to the cheesyest tune possible.....i was cringing in the pew....

That`s not the one that goes

OJesusI have prom ised (pom pom pom)
Toservetheeto the end (pom pom pom pom)
Bethouforev er near me (pom pom pom)
Mymasterand my friend
I-shall-not fear the battle (da-da-da)
If-thou-art by my side
No-or WANder from the pa-athway
If thou wilt be my guide (pom, pom, PA-da and into next verse)

is it?
 


Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sophs:
I think the song is Greater grace
and i like the words...sorry
null

Okay eating my hat slightly here.The song aint that awful(we sung it again yesterday) but that last verse/Chorus/Bridge(You know that bit which is to an entirely differnt tune and tempt to to the rest of the song) is dreadful.
 


Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
On Sunday.....we sang.....The Undignified Song!!!!

Picture this. A church of 253 adults after the children have left to go to their groups. (I'm stood in the balconey, counting heads ) The adults are ALL singing:

I will dance, I will sing
To be mad for my king
Nothing Lord is hindering
(nice rhyme there)
The passion in my soul!

And I'll become (bom-bom)
Even more undignified than this
etc. etc. etc.

Pan over the entire congregation. All.Stood.Still.
Rigid even. Which, lets face it, if I had to be in the body of the church for this song, I too would be stood stock still. Either that, or I would have gone out 'to the loos' before the song started. But I wouldn't have sung it. And they ALL are!!

And when I discretely asked several of them afterwards, if they could see any problems with singing this, and standing still, NONE of them got it!!

Anglicans. Tchuh.

Viki
 


Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
<< you might like to look at this great web page.... http://www.wibsite.com/wibblethorpe/fridgemagnet.htm >>

Too, too faboo. It has been sent to assorted Friends of Real Music/Enemies of Tripe. Thank you!
 


Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
I would like to second the suggestion of the person (on Page 1) who recommended "Why Catholics Can't Sing." Particularly satisfying in that volume is the discussion of the egregious bit of drivel, "Here I am, Lord," a shining example of what author Thomas Day calls the "Vox Dei" school of church music. (My favorite is the bit that steals from the theme song for "The Brady Bunch.")

We owe God our best, and it is my considered opinion that NONE of the lyrics offered thus far for our consideration in this discussion remotely qualify. (And I'm sure the same is true of the tunes.)


 


Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Honest version of 'here I am Lord':

Someone else, Lord
Please not me, Lord
I am hiding underneath my bed
I won't go, Lord
I'm too scared, Lord
Won't you please send someone else instead?
 


Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
That`s not the one that goes

OJesusI have prom ised (pom pom pom)
Toservetheeto the end (pom pom pom pom)
Bethouforev er near me (pom pom pom)
Mymasterand my friend
I-shall-not fear the battle (da-da-da)
If-thou-art by my side
No-or WANder from the pa-athway
If thou wilt be my guide (pom, pom, PA-da and into next verse)

is it?


That'll be the one......
 


Posted by Ginga (# 1899) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
That`s not the one that goes

OJesusI have prom ised (pom pom pom)
Toservetheeto the end (pom pom pom pom)
Bethouforev er near me (pom pom pom)
Mymasterand my friend
I-shall-not fear the battle (da-da-da)
If-thou-art by my side
No-or WANder from the pa-athway
If thou wilt be my guide (pom, pom, PA-da and into next verse)

is it?


What a fabulous rendition! I couldn't for the life of me remember the tune, but suddenly - thanks to your effortless use of punctuation - it all came flooding back, and now it won't leave. At all. Even whistling the Great Escape isn't working.

I'm not a happy ginger.


 


Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
hmmm

Since posting yesterday seem to have got that 'I Jump up high' song on the brain!! Can't stop whistling it!

Wondered why there was a gust of laughter from Mr M and daughter last night as I wandered into TV room mid-rendition. Turns out Ricky Gervaise was just sounding forth about people who whistle.

I have been sent to Room 101!


 


Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel
That`s not the one that goes

OJesusI have prom ised (pom pom pom)
Toservetheeto the end (pom pom pom pom)
Bethouforev er near me (pom pom pom)
Mymasterand my friend
I-shall-not fear the battle (da-da-da)
If-thou-art by my side
No-or WANder from the pa-athway
If thou wilt be my guide (pom, pom, PA-da and into next verse)

is it?


*Irony* Thank you so much - you've now removed my current crap chorus from my brain almost totally. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not...

Anyhow, anyone else get really bugged by " I want to walk with Jesus Christ"? It's not the words, so much as the tune, which sounds as though it should be performed by a German Ooom-pah band!! I'm almost completely incapable of singing this, as I end up convulsed with laughter!
 


Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Honest version of 'here I am Lord':

Someone else, Lord
Please not me, Lord
I am hiding underneath my bed
I won't go, Lord
I'm too scared, Lord
Won't you please send someone else instead?


Exactly what i'm thinking ATM...Thanks GillH!!
 


Posted by Matt the Mad Medic (# 1675) on :
 
quote:
We did a couple of new songs on Sunday and once again Christian Music is leading the way. First up was A delightful ditty which started off with the line "Two sins have we commited".Yeah and the rest.

If you are talking about the song that goes:
"two sins have we committed,
Two sins are plain before our eyes
We have turned from you,
the fount of living water
and have tried to drink from cisterns cracked and dry"

Then you are talking about a song written by a guy called Sam Chaplin who is a mate of mine and a thoroughly fantastic bloke and

It's also a cool song. and YES I believe he's right about the two sins. That essentially is what all our sin revolves around...rejecting God and embracing idols..including idolising ourselves.

As a general point, is taking the piss out of people's musical efforts really neccesssary?

If you don't like them. Don't sing them. But as a song writer myself, I HATE placing new songs before churches. It takes a lot of guts for people to stand up in front of a church with a new song.

The Bible calls us to "sing a new song to the lord" and ok, so you might not like it, but you could at least applaud people for having a go.

Our offerings to God are like a child's painting. When your 3 year old kid tells you you they've painted a picture of you, you don't comment on their water colour technique. You love it for the offering and the gift of love it represents.

Stop dissing your brothers an sisters and start encouraging them instead.

Ok....getting all het up now. This is hell after all
 


Posted by OP3 (# 2703) on :
 
"be a bloomin' tree".... hmmmm..... and the bit about the store....HELP!!!!! Even though I use musique all across the spectrum in worship (meaning worship of the Almighty, not of my own whatevers...), THAT is a bit much....(heading to the WC to barf)
 
Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt the Mad Medic:
Then you are talking about a song written by a guy called Sam Chaplin who is a mate of mine and a thoroughly fantastic bloke


I have no doubts that he is but sorry I just don't like that song. Personally If I make something which people don't like I'd like to know as you've let me know with your reply.
 


Posted by Karl (# 76) on :
 
You're months too late, MTMM. I got the rum, the crap songs got the boot.


 


Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
Not a crappy chorus or a horrible hymn, this one, but rather a pretty good song that is really let down by the arrangement, and by one line of the lyrics.

The song: O let all who are thirsty. It`s a lovely slow piece, which I sang solo in church yesterday. But the arrangement! It needs a moving bassline, for sure, but does that justify the dee-daw siren effect that goes right the way through it? This was in the most recent edition of Hymns Old and New. In an older edition there`s a different arrangement; not that good either, but a lot better. So why did they feel the need to change it?

And the lyric? The third line of the last verse. "Bring the children without might". What on earth is that about?
 


Posted by The Charientist (# 2269) on :
 
A happy-clappy college church I used to attend programmed this one a lot:

My heart shall sing
Of the day you bring
Let the fires of your justice burn
Wipe away all tears
For my dawn draws near
And the world is about to turn

They invariably accompanied it with a flute and a fiddle and played gaily-tripping-along at breakneck speed. This caused my friend Bob and me to dub it "The Pirate Ditty." Whenever the choir launched into it we'd catch each other's eye across the nave and mouth the words, "Arr Matey!" while gleefully hoisting imaginary flagons of ale.
 


Posted by hippimama (# 463) on :
 
Hippimama has picked herself up from the floor where she has been convulsing with combined howls of tears and loathing and is now seriously pissed off with you all for putting these ghastly songs back in her head when she has spent the better part of the last decade exorcising them.... To revenge herself, does anyone remember the horrible lyrics that were set to the even nastier theme tune from The Chariots of Fire?

My personal favourite bad hymn is "There is a fountain filled with blood" -- I once worked in a Christian community where the naughty students would repeatedly request this, and it was then sung very earnestly by half the community while the other half bit the insides of their cheeks hard to keep from screaming. Seriously though, I direct a kids' choir at our church and it's awfully tough to find songs for the un-tutored young singer that don't make me barf. Any suggestions?
 


Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
oh don't get me started on "fountain filled with blood". my mentally handicapped (autistic) brother took a shine to that hymn when it was used in church one time, and he's STILL talking about it... grosses my mother out. don't think she's ever forgiven the minister.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Oriel -- don`t know Hymns Old And new, but what you sang looks a lot to me like a song from the 70s by the St. Louis Jesuits (Foley, SChutte are the key names). In which case, the mysterious line is "Bring the children, without price" -- for rationale, look at the passage from Isaiah (I think) from which this is drawn.

John Holding
 


Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I rather like "There is a fountain". Hard to see how someone who can't handle that could keep a straight face during the Eucharistic Prayers.

My current unfavourite is nothing to do with the (rather pleasant) tune but the utterly un-Christian theology.

"Dear Lord and Father of Mankind"

I now find strength not to sing it. Maybe when I'm a bit bolder I'll find the strength not to stand up when everyine else is.

It should appear in no Christian hymnbook. Vile.
 


Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
I rather like "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind", I have to say. I don`t find it at all unChristian, and am puzzled as to what you find in it that is. It is a prayer that we may not be whipped up into an artificial emotional frenzy or seek that in our worship -- running after feelings instead of truth. The whole poem from which the words are taken, The Brewing of Soma by John Greenleaf Whittier, makes this quite clear.

quote:


Oriel -- don`t know Hymns Old And new, but what you sang looks a lot to me like a song from the 70s by the St. Louis Jesuits (Foley, SChutte are the key names). In which case, the mysterious line is "Bring the children, without price" -- for rationale, look at the passage from Isaiah (I think) from which this is drawn.


Given that the next line is "Easy the load and light", I reckon somebody at some point decided that rhyme was more important than sense. Of course, good writers can do both at once.. Here are the full words, including "Without might".
 


Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
I have heard people object to the first line of "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind", on the basis that God is not the Father of everyone, but only of those who have been saved. Personally I disagree with that view (if I was going to be picky I'd object to exclusive language, but I don't believe in rewriting hymns), but I've never heard anyone condemn the whole hymn. What's the problem with the rest of it?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Dear Lord and Father of Mankind considered harmful

quote:

I have heard people object to the first line of "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind", on the basis that God is not the Father of everyone, but only of those who have been saved. Personally I disagree with that view (if I was going to be picky I'd object to exclusive language, but I don't believe in rewriting hymns), but I've never heard anyone condemn the whole hymn. What's the problem with the rest of it?

It is perfectly Biblical to say that God is the father of us all! Trust me, I'm, a Calvinist.

The problem is first that the rest of the hymn, as a hymn, though perhaps theistic, is not Christian. I can cope with that - obviously much of the praise we use is Jewish and not Christian, and I have no problem with those beautiful Muslim prayer-poems the exordium to the Koran and the call to prayer...

But DLAFOM is specifically anti-Christian at points, anti-incarnational, gnostic, anti-materialist.

Oh nuts, I think we need to start a new thread because this wanders off-topic.

I'm going to try to set one up in Purgatory because it merits Serious Theological Discussion rhater than name-calling. If it works it will be my first thread!
 


Posted by adso (# 2895) on :
 
I once went to a Big Christian Event (never again)where the latest hit had one verse that went:
Jesus has all authority in this place
All authority here (rpt)

while verse 2 went:
Satan has no authority in this place
No authority here

As you can imagine the words sometimes got a bit confused after a few repetitions. It was kind of surreal to watch earnest Christians swaying around, hands raised, asking Satan to have all authority... [Devil]

We have a very varied selection of music at church which is mostly OK. At the "modern" end my particular hate is "Great is the darkness that covers the earth" (anyone else agree that choruses that go on about "nations" are ususally crap?) [Mad] while at the "ancient" end, a few lines in "Come thou holy Paraclete" (nothing like accessible terms for the Holy Spirit!) always make me start sniggering:

"What is rigid, gently bend;
What is frozen, warmly tend;
Strengthen what goes erringly."

Oh, and there's an obscure verse in "For the beauty of the earth" that contains the line:
"For thy virgins robed in snow"

[Eek!]
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by adso:
Oh, and there's an obscure verse in "For the beauty of the earth" that contains the line:
"For thy virgins robed in snow"

[Eek!]

Presumably these virgins would be frigid? [Snigger]

Viki
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
I suppose that would make it easier for them to remain virgins...

Sieg
 
Posted by da_musicman (# 1018) on :
 
Now I couldn't decide whether to put this her on in the Tunes for Hymns thread(Something like that.) in Mystery Worshipper but it seemed more a this thread thing so you lovely people can enjoy it.

Now we sometimes sing a children's song in church which has the following words.

"Our God is a great big God
Our God is a great big God
Our god is a great big God
and he holds us in is hands

He higher than a skyscraper
Deeper than a submarine
He wider than the universe
and beyond our wildest dreams
He's known me and he's loved me since before the world began
How wonderful to be a part of God's amazing plan.(Then back to Great big bit.)"

Now a friend of mine pointed out to me last night that this song fits the tune of YMCA.Go on just give it a try.Which personally makes it sound a lot better to me.Though I don't dislike it to start with.
 
Posted by mysticlisa (# 2867) on :
 
Finally took the time to read this thread and laughed 'til my face hurt... Brought back many memories...

Our young people's group singing with gusto to a tune resembling a very happy march...
(Low voice:)
Un-told mil-lions are still un-told
(high voice)
un-told mil-lions are out-side the fold
(low voice)
who will tell them of Je-sus love
(high voice)
and the heav-en-ly man-sions a-wait-ing a-bove


The elders made up stop singing it begun it was too "fun".

Not the song's fault... just twisted students at Calvary Bible College singing in loud, happy voices:

Years I spent in vanity and pride
Caring not my Lord was crucified
Knowing not it was for me He died...
While At Calvary!


And finally... is there anything worse than contemporary Christian wedding music??? I probably hate this 1) because it only talks about a woman's submission and nothing about a man's role... and 2) I'm divorced and am probably still bitter and angry and.... No!!! This song is crap! And I had to sing it at my college roommate's wedding:

(picture sweet fluttery music)
A gen-tle, qui-et spi-rit
An in-ner pee-eace of mind
A gen-tle qui-et spi-rit
Such hap-pi-ne-e-ess I find
Through yield-ing i-in sub-mis-sion
This is the Fa-a-ther's plan
A gen-tle, qui-et spi-rit
Show-ing sweet love for my man.

Not sure if I want to [Waterworks] or [Projectile]
 
Posted by EQUINAS (# 2907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mysticlisa:

Not the song's fault... just twisted students at Calvary Bible College singing in loud, happy voices:

Years I spent in vanity and pride
Caring not my Lord was crucified
Knowing not it was for me He died...
While At Calvary!


And finally... is there anything worse than contemporary Christian wedding music??? I probably hate this 1) because it only talks about a woman's submission and nothing about a man's role... and 2) I'm divorced and am probably still bitter and angry and.... No!!! This song is crap! And I had to sing it at my college roommate's wedding:

(picture sweet fluttery music)
A gen-tle, qui-et spi-rit
An in-ner pee-eace of mind
A gen-tle qui-et spi-rit
Such hap-pi-ne-e-ess I find
Through yield-ing i-in sub-mis-sion
This is the Fa-a-ther's plan
A gen-tle, qui-et spi-rit
Show-ing sweet love for my man.

Not sure if I want to [Waterworks] or [Projectile]

My most detested, music-and-words-wildly-mismatched hymn is "Love Lifted Me".

"I was sinking, deep in sin
Far from the peaceful shore.
Very deeply stained within,
sinking to rise no more..."

and so on. The music is "Gay 1890's" treacle, which is bad enough, IMO, but to put it with these lyrics sets my teeth on edge. Not that crazy about the lyrics, either. Seems like quite a few hymns of this era were on the sappy side.

As to the wedding song, both responses are appropriate, IMO. Sugar-coated everything, hardly a realistic view of marriage.
 
Posted by EQUINAS (# 2907) on :
 
Clarification: Meant to say "The music reminds me of "Gay 1890's treacle". Not sure when it was actually written.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
How about this for a wedding song?
Three part harmony

Not too treacly, and no mention of submission.
 
Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :
 
I know it's been covered earlier in the thread, but our vicar currently seems to have adopted 'Bind us together'. Thanks CM - this will never be the same again (and I never liked it to start with!).

But what really gets me is the people-will-like-us-if-we-use-'popular'-tunes-in-the-liturgy. So we have had the following Gloria:

To the tune of 'English Country Garden'

Glory to God, to Go-od in heaven
a-and peace to ev-ry (bom) na-a-tion

It continues, but gets no better.

I started working out how the Gloria could be done to Londonderry Air, but gave up since our dear Rev. would think it was a serious suggestion

[Flaming]
 
Posted by Snow White (# 2390) on :
 
Does anyone else know this one? I can't remember all of the words but I know it starts like this...

"Mister Cow, how do you
Say to God "I love yoooo"?

AHHHHHH! [Help]
 
Posted by EQUINAS (# 2907) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
How about this for a wedding song?
Three part harmony

Not too treacly, and no mention of submission.

Much better. [Smile]
Hubby and I used favorite hymns and choral works, both of us being ultra-trad in our sacred music preferences.
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Beethoven:
our vicar currently seems to have adopted 'Bind us together'. Thanks CM - this will never be the same again

I live to serve. [Smile]

David
now with 35% less salacious humour
 
Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
The current "pick of the pops" for weddings at our church recently is (and darn, I can't remember the composer. One of the Big Three I think - Haugen, Haas or Schutte) "Wherever you go".

Which is very nice, based on Ruth's words to Naomi, and bits from Song of Solomon... apart from the opening line:

Come set me like a seal upon your arm
A seal protecting your heart


I can't sing/hear that without wanting to make barking noises and start clapping flippers together...

Shame really, coz my partner would rather like it for our committment ceremony...

Kirsti
 
Posted by likeness (# 2773) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
Come set me like a seal upon your arm
A seal protecting your heart


Erm...doesn't that make two seals? [Paranoid] If this is derived from the Song Of Solomon, I hate to think what they might be up to. [Wink]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
A seal protecting one's heart can't be on one's arm?

Reader ALexis
 
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
It can if one is standing sideways. Perhaps that pose should adopted into the liturgy?

scot
demonstrating why I'd never make it in MW
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I see. You are only used to protective shields with very limited range. Or very, very small ones.

Look at a warrior who uses a shield to protect his chest. He wears it on his arm.

Reader alexis
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Snow White:
Does anyone else know this one? I can't remember all of the words but I know it starts like this...

"Mister Cow, how do you
Say to God "I love yoooo"?

AHHHHHH! [Help]

Allow me to drive you all insane...

Mi-ster Cow, how do you
Say to the Lo-ord I lo-ove you?
Mi-ster Cow, how do you
Say to the Lo-ord I love you?

Well I stand around in a field all day
Which gives me plen-ty of time to say:
Mooooo, moooooo
I love you.


Repeat with Mr. Duck, Mr. Hen, Mr. Sheep Mr. Horse etc.

Note:
Viki, who felt Hell needed a little stirring up [Wink]
 
Posted by andy_s (# 2792) on :
 
Oh for pity's sake! WTF is the theological objection to Old MacD - or is it just we don't dare sing it at Sunday School in case someone accuses us doing something just for fun!

-----------------------------
Run for the hills.
 
Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by Snow White:
[qb]Does anyone else know this one? I can't remember all of the words but I know it starts like this...

"Mister Cow, how do you
Say to God "I love yoooo"?

AHHHHHH! [Help]

Allow me to drive you all insane...

Mi-ster Cow, how do you
Say to the Lo-ord I lo-ove you?
Mi-ster Cow, how do you
Say to the Lo-ord I love you?

Well I stand around in a field all day
Which gives me plen-ty of time to say:
Mooooo, moooooo
I love you.


[QB]

I have a sneaking fondness for that one, but only becuase the frst time I heard it, it was on a tape that our sunday school co-ordinator had got from somewhere and was maing us listen to because it was funny. Especially that when it gets to Mr Sheep, when he replies he has a very definite Welsh accent. (Well I sit arrrrround..). No stereotyping here! [Razz]

Wouldn't ever consider actually singing it in church though!

bird

ps. it won't let me preview my post. a thousand apologies if the nested quotes are messed up.
 
Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
um... mister cow? hasn't anyone ever pointed out that a mister cow is actually a bull ?? [Eek!]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
"Cow" is like "Duck" or "Goose." The generic term for the species as a whole is also the female-specific term. Thus, all bulls are cows but not all cows are bulls. All drakes are ducks but not all ducks are drakes. All ganders are geese, but not all geese are ganders.

Your Handy Roadside Pedant Service Representative,
Alexis
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
wanting to make barking noises and start clapping flippers together...

Shame really, coz my partner would rather like it for our committment ceremony...

Not... saying... a word!

David
snickering uncontrollably at the resulting image [Razz]
 
Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
quote:
Main Entry: 1cow
Pronunciation: 'kau
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English cou, from Old English cu; akin to Old High German kuo cow, Latin bos head of cattle, Greek bous, Sanskrit go
Date: before 12th century
1 a : the mature female of cattle (genus Bos) b : the mature female of various usually large animals (as an elephant, whale, or moose)


 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
How convenient for you that you cut the definition in half, leaving out item #2:

quote:
2 : a domestic bovine animal regardless of sex or age
Nice try. Too bad others have access to dictionaries too, isn't it?

Alexis
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Sorry, I left out the demoniacal laughter:

Bwahahahahahaha! [Devil] [Devil] [Devil]

-Alexis
 
Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
first definition is the main one. so there. thhhhppttt.......

[Razz]

(but ok, how about we call it a truce?)
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Main schmain. Depending on the dictionary, it could be the older one, the more widespread one, the one that is closest to the etymology, or just the one that the editors thought looked best going first.

Truce works for me.

Alexis
 
Posted by Bishop Joe (# 527) on :
 
I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I would forego Advent and even happily skip Christmas not to have to sing "Oh come, Oh come, Eee-MAAAAAAAHHHnnnnYOOOOOOelllll". Maybe this dirge-upon-a-dirge sounds better with a British accent, but to me it sounds like a cross between a distant jackhammer and the bad oboe reed competition just outside the nave.

Probably some people put this classic on a par with real tunes like "In the Bleak Midwinter" or "It Came Upon a Midnight Clear," but after 30 years of churchgoing I just can't warm up to the durn thing. If the clerics feel they MUST use this invitation to suicide, couldn't they give us advance warning?

PO'd in the Midwest [Wink]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Sorry you don't like that song, BJ, but some of us do. I find it very lovely if sung properly.

Although "It came upon the midnight clear" is clearly a classic, it wasn't even written by a Trinitarian Christian but by a Unitarian as a protest against the impending US Civil War. My fave version is on Bruce Cockburn's Christmas album, where he sings it in a minor key and it works extremely well.

I'm not sure, however, if Christmas Carols really are on-topic for this thread?

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Of course it's on topic!

What could be more hellish than Christmas in July (unless, perhaps, it's Christmas in December).

Despise "It came upon a midnight clear."
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
What could be more hellish than Christmas in July?

Obviously, arguing about whether Christmas in July is hellish.

The minor key version really undoes the syrupy aspects of the melody so it's far more palatable to people without a serious musical sweet tooth. The smug self-righteousness of the lyrics, however, remain.

But there are few Christmas Carols that I will denigrate. It's one of my absolute favorite art forms. Even more than oil-on-velvet paintings of nude ladies.

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Quote from Bishop Joe
quote:
I don't know if this has been addressed before, but I would forego Advent and even happily skip Christmas not to have to sing "Oh come, Oh come, Eee-MAAAAAAAHHHnnnnYOOOOOOelllll".
I suspect your organist plays it in a very slow, dragging manner. Some people think that all plainsongs should sound like dirges.

I like it very much the way it is sung in my church.

Moo
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Hmmm...yes....but where are you meant to breathe. I generally end up going blue in the face by the end of the first four lines, and squeaking out the 'Rejoice, rejoice..' [Frown]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Miffy, you wouldn't do well in our choir, where some of our sheet music actually has things like "Don't Breathe Al Fin." or "NO BREATHING THROUGHOUT" written on it. Our choir director is so insistent on our not breathing that the choir once bought her a t-shirt that says "Don't Breathe. Stagger."

Which is what you have to do -- stagger your breathing with other people singing the same part. You have to coordinate with your partmates as to who is going to drop out which words (so you don't all do it at the same time) in order to breathe.

It really gets interesting when someone is particularly short of breath on a given day and has to breathe more often than usual. [Roll Eyes] But most of the time the end result is a smooth piece of music with no gasping inhales audible in it. [Smile]

Reader (and ersatz Tenor) Alexis
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
[Eek!] [Paranoid] [Frown] [Help]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Is Rossian thing. I'm not so sure I understand it myself. [Ultra confused]

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by Bongo (# 778) on :
 
Not sure if I've posted this somewhere back in the mists of time, but...anyway.

Anyone else recall this cringeworthy 'action song' (I can only remember the chorus)?:

I'm not a grasshopper, I'm a giant for the Lord (repeat 3 times)

When you get to the chorus, you're supposed to hurl your arms straight down in front of you (like line judges do when a ball is in at Wimbledon) and jump up and down maniacally. Good clean fun. NOT!

And as for altering lyrics - when I was a wee young thing in a youth group, we used to sing "Come on and sellotape, sellotape, sellotape and string; sellotape and string, drawing pins..."

Bongo
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Bongo: what song is the "cellotape" thing meant to be a spoof of?

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Bongo: what song is the "cellotape" thing meant to be a spoof of?

Reader Alexis

Come on and celebrate,
Celebrate, celebrate and sing
Celebrate and sing to our ki-i-i-i-i-i-ing [Big Grin]

It's a wonderful song [Wink]

Viki
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
So sorry I missed it! [Roll Eyes]

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bongo:
Not sure if I've posted this somewhere back in the mists of time, but...anyway.

Anyone else recall this cringeworthy 'action song' (I can only remember the chorus)?:

I'm not a grasshopper, I'm a giant for the Lord (repeat 3 times)

When you get to the chorus, you're supposed to hurl your arms straight down in front of you (like line judges do when a ball is in at Wimbledon) and jump up and down maniacally. Good clean fun. NOT!

I wanna be a flea for the Lord [Wink] Failing that, a cow? [Big Grin]

Viki
 
Posted by Boot (# 2611) on :
 
Not a horrible song, but one of the ones from the Soul Survivor stable with the first line of the chorus being "Let me be a shining light for you" always provokes much amusement from me.

It invariably gets sung as "let me be a whineing shi*te for you" by our youth group.

Which is strangely appropriate for most of them.

Bless

b
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The one I really hated, which is not a worship song per se but I have heard it done as "special music," is

Love Crucified a Rose.

I always wondered: what in the heck would Love do that for?

Reader ALexis
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
The one I really hated, which is not a worship song per se but I have heard it done as "special music," is

Love Crucified a Rose.

I always wondered: what in the heck would Love do that for?

Reader ALexis

Hey, maybe we've all got it wrong? Jesus wasn't a man. He wasn't even human. He was a flower, in fact, a rose.

Question: How would you crucify a rose? Where would you hammer the nails?

Viki
 
Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
The one I really hated, which is not a worship song per se but I have heard it done as "special music," is

Love Crucified a Rose.

I always wondered: what in the heck would Love do that for?

Reader ALexis

Somebody was trying to be literary. All that rose imagery in medieval and early renaissance European poetry. If you're a disciple of D.F. Robertson (or you happen to be D.F. Robertson) you figure the Rose is Christ. If you're anybody else, you just assume it's a vagina.
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I never know, Tomb, when you're joking and when you're being serious.

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
Why do you think it's red roses on Valentines day?
 
Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Hmmm, either I'm going to be helpful OR I'm going to prove that I'm the only one too slow to pick up on the joke. However, just to show that I am selfless to a fault and exist only to help others... [Roll Eyes]

I think you'll find that it is 'Love Crucified Arose' as in 'Love embodied in Christ, was Crucified and then Arose from the dead'

Okay, let the mockery begin.

scot
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
I've always assumed that too. But perhaps I'm incorrigibly literal-minded.

I logged on this morning, Lord, because I just wanna lift up to you my brother Tomb who yesterday put the tune of "Shine Jesus Shine" into my head for the whole of the day. [Help]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Hmmm, either I'm going to be helpful OR I'm going to prove that I'm the only one too slow to pick up on the joke. However, just to show that I am selfless to a fault and exist only to help others... [Roll Eyes]

I think you'll find that it is 'Love Crucified Arose' as in 'Love embodied in Christ, was Crucified and then Arose from the dead'

Okay, let the mockery begin.

Mockery? For someone brave enough and selfless enough to perform the deed you just have? Never.

Nonetheless, you're the only one too slow to pick up on the joke. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

The problem with the song, however, is that when you first hear it it sounds like the floral thing; you gotta kinda twist it around in your head for a microsecond to realize what they're really saying. Which, I submit, means it is a poorly written song.

REader ALexis
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I logged on this morning, Lord, because I just wanna lift up to you my brother Tomb who yesterday put the tune of "Shine Jesus Shine" into my head for the whole of the day. [Help]

Somehow I have managed not to have heard that song. I gather I am blessed beyond all measure.

Moo
 
Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
Moo, just to make your day.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ann:
Moo, just to make your day.

No, thanks. My day is fine just the way it is.

Moo
 
Posted by fusilli (# 2930) on :
 
From other threads you will probably have guessed that I like a lot of the new worship songs that are around. My pet hate, though, is where an otherwise good song is ruined by lazy lyrics. For example
quote:
The Lord's loving kindnesses
indeed will never cease
And his compassions
they will never fade away

They are new every morning
They are new every day
Great is thy faithfulness


The Lord's amazing grace
abounds to us every day
And his great mercies
they will never fade


is potentially a really good song but spoile by the horrible scansion in the second verse. An extra 5 minutes effort would have improved it no end.

Then there are songs that mix thee and thou and you in the same verse!

[Cool]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
But fusilli, isn't that verse just straight from the psalms?

Those doggoned psalmists. Too lazy by half!

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by fusilli (# 2930) on :
 
Yes, but the tune used fits the first verse well. For the second verse you need a crowbar!

[Cool]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Y'all just need to point it for Orthodox chant. Then syllabification is (almost) irrelevant. [Smile]

Reader Alexis
 
Posted by DMcV (# 545) on :
 
The biggest grammatical irritation in modern crap choruses is that one that goes 'It was for freedom/That Christ has set us free.' Get yer tenses right, O shiny-gnashered ones.

And, yes, unwitting changes of viewpoint abound in modern crap choruses, but generally they manage to get back to I/Me fairly quickly.

I offer again a spoof chorus composed by one of my peers on an SU Holiday team:

Turn, turn, turn or burn,
Turn, turn, turn or burn,
Turn, turn, turn or burn.
Thus saith the Lord!

 
Posted by Professor Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by DMcV:

quote:
The biggest grammatical irritation in modern crap choruses is that one that goes 'It was for freedom/That Christ has set us free.' Get yer tenses right, O shiny-gnashered ones.
I have fond memories of that particular song from my house church days. According to the acetate we used the next line went:

'No longer to be subject to a yolk of slavery'.

Which always made me chuckle.
 
Posted by Lux Mundi (# 1981) on :
 
Sorry if this one has already been done, but I, and my friends at University used to balk at:

'...You do all things well;
Just look at our lives.'
from 'His Banner over me is Love.

I don't quite class my life as being that good [Disappointed] , but then again compared to what it could be... But in its context it is a little too silly to be singable.

Lux
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lux Mundi:
Sorry if this one has already been done, but I, and my friends at University used to balk at:

'...You do all things well;
Just look at our lives.'
from 'His Banner over me is Love.

I don't quite class my life as being that good [Disappointed] , but then again compared to what it could be... But in its context it is a little too silly to be singable.

Lux

That song was on my list of All-time Most Hated, for that line. It got redeemed, when I put it up on the original Crappy Chorus thread, and someone came back and told me what the the lyrics could be translated as (they're from Songs of Solomon) [Wink]

Viki
 
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
Don't be shy viki. [Wink]

His banner over me is love is about a man on top of a woman during sex.

I mean who's stupid idea was to put into a song....
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
God's.

Or Solomon's.

(Gives me the giggles though - I'd love to sing the literal translation.)
 
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
I mean put into a worship song....
 
Posted by Robert Miller (# 1459) on :
 
I heard a song over the weekend - "I could sing unending songs" etc., etc., which has the line

"And we're so happy"

Why the hell are Christians supposed to be happy all the time with a big cheesy grin and a smile and everythings happppppppyyyyyyyy [Sunny]

[Flaming] [Mad] [Flaming]
 
Posted by Fr. Gregory (# 310) on :
 
theology-lite ... theology-lite ...

Jesus wants us to be comfy in him, undisturbed by bad things or having to think.

[Projectile] [Puke] [Projectile]
 
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
How big is your chip Fr G?
 
Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
How big is your chip Fr G?

Want some salt to go with it?

How about vinegar?

Viki
 
Posted by Fr. Gregory (# 310) on :
 
My bullshit detector is just fine thank you very much.
 
Posted by Robert Miller (# 1459) on :
 
Thanks Fr. Gregory - I knew it - but are most of the choruses we sing not theologically lite anyway?

*BEGIN RANT*

This is just so lite that it floats. Why can't we sing songs that are real!

"If I were a butterfly I'd thank you God that I could fly!"

or

"I've got joy like a fountain I've got peace like a river I've got love like an ocean in my soul"

Do we feel children let alone kids are unable to understand theology!

*END RANT*
 
Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
How big is your chip Fr G?

Fr G is Orthodox.

He uses VALVES, silly! [Big Grin]

Christina
 
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
I am so glad Fr G it will be needed on a bit of self-assessment.
 
Posted by Fr. Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Dear Robert

What do you mean, "we"? [Wink]
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
This might have been posted previously (but I don't recall it) - there are various goodies here, and I particularly liked this one.

Keep me truckin' for the Lord.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Misses out several vital verses:

Give me wax on my board, keep me surfin' for the Lord

Give me batteries in my torch, keep me shining
(with the chorus 'Ever Ready, Ever Ready, Ever Ready for the King of Kings')
 
Posted by Robert Miller (# 1459) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
Dear Robert

What do you mean, "we"? [Wink]

OK Theology-lite churches [Cool]
 
Posted by Tonus_Peregrinus (# 3058) on :
 
[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] I haven't laughed so much for ages! Thanks everyone. But sometimes it isn't the hymn or song itself which is bad, but the context. For example, "Lord dismiss us with thy blessing" as the first hymn, or "The day thou gavest Lord is ended" at 10 AM. [Eek!] I can no longer sing "Take my life and let it be..." with a straight face since one of my choristers dubbed it "The Suicide Song" (and suggested that it should be used for organ transplant occasions).

For those who like action songs, try "I've got knees, feet and toes", all of which lend themselves to great moves if you don't mind the music getting lost [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Robert Miller (# 1459) on :
 
Do we feel adults let alone kids are unable to understand theology!

oops - typo above [Roll Eyes] - sorry, ranted too much
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Our otherwise Mattins and Evensong vicar in the 1970s decided to pull out all the stops for the new Family Service - we had Christian words to 'The Wombles of Wimbledon Common are we' and 'Coke, it's the real thing'!
 
Posted by Aardvark (# 2295) on :
 
The following went down well at a comedy evening at a church in our area recently. (I've left out some of the verses)

To be sung to the tune of "Jesus taught us how to be a family"

Anyone can write a Graham Kendrick song
Anyone can write a Graham Kendrick song
You just make the words up as you go along
Anyone can write a Graham Kendrick song

Graham Kendrick leaves out all the (clap) crucial beats
Graham Kendrick leaves out all the (clap) crucial beats
So instead of singing you can stamp your feet
Graham Kendrick leaves out all the crucial beats

As you go throughout the song you get faster
As you go throughout the song you get faster
The pianist can't keep up but then who cares about her
As you go throughout the song you get faster

Pick your favourite verse and sing it once again
Pick your favourite verse and sing it once again
That way everyone will know when you've reached the end
Pick your favourite verse and sing it once again

Pick your favourite verse etc..
 
Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
The chorus I most hate and actually will be sung in hell is 'isn't he beautiful'

Anyway on the off chance that some one finds a new chorus or hymn to hate,I have decided not to delete this thread but send it to dead horses.

Nightlamp
Hellhost
 
Posted by Arch-Deacon (# 982) on :
 
Now that this thread resides deep down in the bowels of a dead and buried horse, I can now reveal a terrible, terrible truth about myself, sure in the knowledge that no-one will ever read it.

I have written Christian words to go with the tune to Bob the Builder specifically for our Tiny Tots service in Church. The tots think they are great- I am just deeply, deeply ashamed- there, I've have confessed and no-one will ever know.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Ha!
 
Posted by David Brider (# 3233) on :
 
(Leaping in late to this particular thread...)

quote:
Originally posted by Lux Mundi:
Sorry if this one has already been done, but I, and my friends at University used to balk at:

'...You do all things well;
Just look at our lives.'
from 'His Banner over me is Love.


Erm, can we just clarify exactly who amongst your friends at uni balked at that particular song? I always loved it. Maybe I was just too easily pleased.

(And remind me, did we end up managing to get the ad hoc choir to sing that one at my wedding, or did they refuse?! [Big Grin] )

David.
 
Posted by flev (# 3187) on :
 
Apologies for returning to a type of "crappy chorus" discussed a couple of pages ago, but I recently heard a song designed for kids which in my opinion was the absolute epitomy of awfulness.

I quote:

Jesus, you are wonderful,
Jesus, you are great.
You put a smile upon my face
And washed my sins away.

And I will jump, jump, jump around,
And lift your name on high.
Jump, jump, jump around,
'Cos you are in my life


As you might imagine, it's obligatory to "jump, jump, jump around" in the chorus - possibly an attempt to tire out the kids in preparation for the next song.

Oh yes, and it's one of those songs which is endlessly repeated, getting faster and faster.

Grrr....
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
This one, which I vaguely remember, came to me today when I was doing my laundry... so it must beg to be shared. Unfortunately, it loses much of its impact if one cannot hear the dreadful tune.

Spirit of God in the clear running water,
Calling to greatness the trees on the hill,
Spirit of God in the finger of morning,
Fill the earth, bring it to birth, and blow where you will.

Blow, blow, blow till I be,
But breath of the Spirit blowing in me.

Down in the meadows the willows are moaning,
Sheep in the pasture land cannot lie still,
Spirit of God, creation is groaning.
Fill the earth, bring it to birth, and blow where you will.

Blow, blow, blow till I be,
But breath of the Spirit blowing in me.
 
Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
Ooh. ooh. ooh.

How many campfire song leaders does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
 
Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
Only one. But soon all those around can warm up to its glowing.

Christian campfire songs are probably too easy a target. They aren't supposed to be high culture, and simplistic theology is not inappropriate.

Nonetheless, "Father Abraham" is absolutely boggling -- in both versions. The first three lines and the repeated actions are standard dumb. The parallel structure of the first two lines is actually a a wee bit better.

But the last line of verse doesn't rhyme, doesn't scan, doesn't even complete the thought. Both versions, "For God loves me and you" or "So let's just praise the Lord" seem utterly random, as if they wandered in from someone else's campfire across the lake.
 
Posted by Laudate Dominum (# 3104) on :
 
Apologies if anyone posted this already, but:

Our God is an awesome God
He reins from heaven above
With wisdom, power, and love
Our God is an awesome God.


(sung to a horrible pop-type tune, with handsigns [Puke] )
A priest (who incidentally had a very unkempt beard and played the guitar) taught my classmates and I to sing this while we were on retreat. He actually admonished the ones who refused to sing along, saying that we were not sufficiently enthusiastic about praising God. I may be scarred for life.

Oh, and has anyone else had to endure songs by the Gaither family? Because he liiiives, I can face tomorrow; because he liiiiives, all fear is goooone; because I knooooow he holds the future, my life is worth the living, just because he liiiiiives....
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
I most sincerely appologise if "Shine, Jesus, Shine" has been addressed already. If it has, it probably hasn't been addressed in this way: have you ever heard "Shine, Jesus, Shine" on a pipe organ? If you haven't, save yourself the trouble. I've been through it, and I would rather have my head slammed into a brick wall than hear that attrocious combination again. That song was last played over a year ago. I told the pastors I would leave if that song was ever played again. Fortunately, my threat carries some weight since I am the bell choir director.
 
Posted by Tonus_Peregrinus (# 3058) on :
 
Dear Newman's Own:

Thank you very much. I have had that silly song running in my head for the last twenty-four hours, now that I've been reminded of it. It was one of the favourites of the Director of Religious Studies at the parish school - and it got sung at every school Mass for about 2 years (and I got to play it every time, as well as at all the practices!!!).

The other one it brought to mind was Colour My World. I can't remember the verses (thank you God) but the chorus went:

Colour my world with gladness,
Colour my world with joy,
Colour my world with a rainbow of love,
Colour my world with joy.

[Puke] [Puke] [Puke]

If this is what the teachers are exposing primary school children to, it's no wonder their faith development stops at about age 6, and we're stuck with childish adults (not child-like, which is something else, and at times quite a good thing).
 
Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 
"Come as you are, that's how I want you.
Come as you are, feel right at home...."

...with apologies if it's been posted before. That other prime piece of drek is "For the Beauty of the Earth" by Rutter. Our choir sounds like the liturgical arm of the Mike Sammes Singers when we sing the wretched thing.
 
Posted by Ian S (# 3098) on :
 
there was an action song c.10yrs ago

Holy spirit, holy spirit, pour your power, pour your power, on me, on me on me

each verse added something else you asked the h.s. to do but it always finished on me, on me on me.
 
Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I've heard rumours of a 'prayer of Jabez' chorus asking God to 'enlarge my borders'. As a dedicated Weight Watcher, there's no way I'm asking God to enlarge my anything!

Could be a useful song for managers of large American bookstores though.

Your wish is my command, Gill H

bird
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I mercifully have forgotten many of the words, but does anyone remember a popular "kids' hymn" (from, I would say, about 1970... though, God help us, it endured for at least another 10 years), which began with

I'm alive in Christ
He's alive in me
And that pretty well sums up my whole philosophy.

Another verse began with:

And he lives in you
And he lives in me
And the three of us together, that's community.

Another was:
What a happy place this whole world would be
If we all could learn to live in peace and harmony,
What a very happy place we'd all be in!
We'd be alive in him!

I hope this thread never dies - it is a favourite of mine.
 
Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
OH NOOOOO!! Our music minister is almost done preparing our new supplimental song book. Lots of Betty Pulkingham and... I can't say it... Sh*ne Jesus Sh*ne. [brick wall] [Waterworks] [Projectile]
 
Posted by Elizabeth Still Believes (# 3555) on :
 
And Elizabeth slowly becomes unglued as the long-repressed memories of Sunday school come flooding back.... [brick wall]

One consisted of the line "God became a baby boy", repeated over and over and over and over again, and nothing else.

And then there was "Jesus was a child like me/ He would fall and scrape his knee/ His mom would soothe his hurt/ And clean up all the dirt/ Jesus was a child like me"

[Help]
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
ELizabeth, leave now while there is still hope.

The rest of us have already succumbed to the dark side.
 
Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
I learned a song in Solomon Islands pidgin English, that goes like this:

Me one talk long you
You one talk long me
Me one talk long Jesus
Jesus hemme one talk true


Roughly translated this means:

I and one with you
You are one with me
I am one with Jesus
Jesus is the True One


And the music is just as bad. It was written by an Australian guy the same day he learned a few words in pidgin. Can you tell?
 
Posted by Gabriel (# 827) on :
 
I think my all-time worst chorus has to be the 1960's (or possibly 70's) (Yes, i'm showing my age!)

Bind us together Lord
Bind us together Lord
With cords that can not be broken
Bind us together Lord
Bind us together Lord
Bind us together with love

It was, at the time, required that everyone held hands as they sung it (!)
 
Posted by pcd (# 3570) on :
 
:wow: awhole site devoted to a hobby horse of mine! has anyone shared the joy of singing hymns to 'Land of Hope and glory' or worse the dambusters march. trust me it doesnt matter what the words are :
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Elizabeth Still Believes:
And Elizabeth slowly becomes unglued as the long-repressed memories of Sunday school come flooding back.... [brick wall]

One consisted of the line "God became a baby boy", repeated over and over and over and over again, and nothing else.

And then there was "Jesus was a child like me/ He would fall and scrape his knee/ His mom would soothe his hurt/ And clean up all the dirt/ Jesus was a child like me"

[Help]

Don't worry, Elisabeth. It happened to me as well. [Projectile]

It is possible to find help. [Wink]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I just love this thread - but, since it has had a (happily) long life, please excuse me if I am repeating anything I said in the original. (If so, it is not intentional.)

One of my pet peeves was when a popular song, in no way religious and perhaps quite a good one, was used for worship - the more because lots of us romantic types, during the 1960s and 70s, did not realise that the effect would be unintentionally hilarious. This goes equally well for when people used a song that indeed was religious, but had no familiarity with the Scripture passage that formed the text - I cannot tell what a problem it was to try to explain to couples (this was in the days when "But it's her wedding justified anything" - no support from the clergy) that one popular folk hymn that was from Hosea was hardly appropriate for a wedding.

A number of my friends (religious Sisters of various congregations) were very creative in their profession ceremonies - but I'll spare you the details of some of the nonsense, noting only the occasional use of a popular song. For those of you too young to remember, this song had the lyrics (if I recall):

There's a new world somewhere
They call the promised land.
And I'll be there someday if you will hold my hand.
I could search the whole world over, until my life is through,
But I know I'll never find another you.

There is always someone for each of us they say, and you'll be my someone forever and a day. (etc.)

Tune changed:
It's a long, long journey, so stay by my side.
While I walk through the storm you'll be my guide,
If they gave me a fortune, my treasure would be small.
I could lose it all tomorrow, and never mind at all,
But if I should lose your love dear, I don't know what I'd do,
For I know I'll never find another you.

This actually very pleasant popular song tended to sound really silly at a profession ceremony. But you can imagine how I blushed when a novice mistress I knew, having heard the rather obscure John Denver song "Poems, Prayers, and Promises" saw it as lovely for an investiture ceremony.

"Lie there by the fire,
And watch the evening tire,
While all my friends and my old lady
Sit and pass the pipe around.
And talk of poems, prayers, and promises,
And things that we believe in,
How sweet it is to love someone,
How right it is to share,
How long it's been since yesterday,
And what about tomorrow?
And what about our dreams and all the memories we share?"

Have you ever tried to get a novice mistress down from the clouds and explain to her what "pass the pipe around" means? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by pcd (# 3570) on :
 
probably i hate danny boy as a hymn tune asmuch as afore mentiohed land of h and g and the using of pop tunes with the words changed as Elizabeth describes. See also 'gladly thecross eyed bear 'and' just as i am without one pea' However if i never hear 'fear not or majesty again I shall die happy'
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
My life is too full(!) to go through the entire thread to check if my favourite spoonerism is here:

For
I will make you fishers of men...

how about

I will make you vicious old men....
vicious old men......
etc, if you follow me....

 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I had not thought of this one in years, but I doubt it can have its impact if one does not know the dreadful tune... nor how awkwardly the second verse fits the melody.

Follow Christ and love the world as he did,
When he walked upon the e-e-earth,
Love each friend and enemy as he did,
In God's eyes we have equal worth.

Follow Christ and serve the world as he did,
When he min-i-stered to every-o-o-one,
Serve each friend and enemy as he did,
So that the father's will be done.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Thanks Birdie, but I couldn't get in without a password. Never mind, I can get assaulted by enough Prayer of Jabez nonsense every time I walk past a Wesley Owen...

The 'Holy Spirit' song is a chain song (like 'Old Macdonald' but without the animal noises, unless you're in that sort of church). I play it for the kid's slot sometimes, very fast in the style of 'Tutti Frutti' (hey, I'm really down wiv ver kids).
 
Posted by Birdie (# 2173) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Thanks Birdie, but I couldn't get in without a password.

How strange. Nor can I now. It definitely worked when I posted it...

b
 
Posted by Jengie (# 273) on :
 
Anyone remember the Sunday School collection hymn

Dropping, dropping dropping
Hear the pennies fall
Every one for Jesus.
He shall have them all.

I may have got the first line wrong but the rest is fairly accurate.

Jengie
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Yes, I remember it! And the boys all tried to miss the box slot so the pennies really would be dropping - all over the floor.

We were supposed to be sending the money off to missionaries in Africa, so the box was in the shape of a mud hut.

The other song we would sing about it was:
'Jesus loves the little children
all the children of the world
Red and yellow black and white
All are precious in his sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world.'

I used to try to imagine what little children with red, yellow, black and white stripes looked like, and where they might live. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I don't know if this ever was a song used in worship (I certainly hope not...), but, after a lapse of about thirty years, somehow my mind became filled with memories of a dreadful song about

Put your hand in the hand of the man who stilled the water,
Put your hand in the hand of the man who calmed the sea,
Take a look at yourself and you will look at others differently,
By putting your hand in the hand of the man from Galilee.

Whoever recorded it, incidentally, pronounced "hand" as if it were "hay-ned" and "stilled" as if it were "steeled."

I am bracing myself... I just know I'm going to learn that this actually was used in services somewhere or other.
 
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 
That is really eerie! I was thinking about that song earlier today. I havent thought of it for a couple of decades and it turns up twice in one day!

I didn't know it in a worship setting, I used to play bassoon in a schools orchestra and it was done instrumentally in a completely secular "big band" style. Mind you I must have heard it elsewhere too, because a couple of lines of lyrics are familiar.

Here's one from the same era (mid-seventies) on a similar theme:

Here comes Jesus, see him walking on the water
He'll lift you up and he'll help you to stand.
Here comes Jesus, he's the master of the waves that roll
Here comes Jesus, he'll make you whole.

I dunno, the yoof of today complain about worship songs. If they had to go through some of the songs we did in the seventies (the above is actually comparatively good) then blah blah blah etc.

<polishes walking stick and mumbles off, stage left>
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
A verse for 'Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so' that I can't find in my hymn-book, but that we sung at our Sunday School run by some independent evangelical folk went like this.

'Jesus loves the Indian boy
bow and arrow for his toy;
And he loves the cowboy, too
with his horse and big lassoo

Yes, Jesus loves me, Yes, Jesus loves me etc'

Were we the only ones to sing this er... rather unusual version?
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Lord have mercy, Jonah - I had completely forgotten that "Here Comes Jesus" song, which I remember now hearing at a charismatic service about 25 years ago! I am just sorry that those who were not around to hear this atrocity cannot realise just how horrible the melody was!

Now, this one goes back further than the 1970s (probably much further, though I've no notion of its origins), but I understand that it was popular at RC evening services (novenas and other devotions) back when Mass could not be celebrated after midday. I have no idea of the cirumstances (is there an elder shipmate who does?), but remember hearing that Pius XII himself, who rarely bothered with things so trivial as English RC hymns, directly prohibited its use. (There was a verse about how Jesus was the shepherd, which I cannot recall.)

Good night, sweet Jesus,
Guard us in sleep,
Our souls and bodies
In thy love keep.
Waking or sleeping,
Keep us in sight,
Dear gentle Saviour, good night, good night.

Good night, sweet Jesus,
Thanks for thy loyal love,
And all thy wondrous gifts
Sent from above.
Grant us forgiveness,
Poor sinners in thy sight.
Dear gentle Saviour, good night, good night.

Good night, sweet Jesus, good night, good night.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
To my amazement, I found that Laura's MIDI Heaven has "Good Night, Sweet Jesus" (horrible arrangement of the horrible tune) amongst its offerings. I'm mentioning this largely because I know those who love this thread as I do may find some of their favourites there. (Though no songs still under copyright can be included, so the 1970s messes are largely absent.)
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
Funeral hymns. hmmm. One of the standards in the local RC churches here (where I cantor at funerals) is "How Great Thou Art". I've never figured out quite how it fits a funeral, especially with the typical American RCs who never sing all the verses of a hymn. So you end up singing two verses about mountain grandeur, twittering birds, and silvery moons and then abruptly ending. Drives me nuts!


 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
? did that post miss something?

Anyway, the song fits funerals very well, being a statement of faith in God, and of hope in the resurrection.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I just noticed that the rather different crimes agains hymnody thread has been closed and merged with this one.

Which means I have to use this thread to ask if anyone else knows the song, sung often at our church, that goes something like:

quote:

Give thanks, with a grateful heart
Give thanks, to the Holy One
Give thanks, because He's given
Jesus Christ, His Son

And now, let the weak say "I am strong"
let the poor say "I am rich"
because of what the Lord has done for me

Not the most beautiful of poetry, but it is better than many. But there was something familiar about the tune...

A week or so ago I was in the Brighton Bead Shop with my best-beloved, light of my eyes, et.c, et.c and we were listening to the loud music being played from some old pop compilations.

And they played The Village People's other song, the one that isn't about the YMCA: Go West!.

And then I realised where I'd heard the tune before.
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
quote:
Give thanks, with a grateful heart
Give thanks, to the Holy One
Give thanks, because He's given
Jesus Christ, His Son......

And they played The Village People's other song, the one that isn't about the YMCA: Go West!.

[Killing me]

(Actually I think it's the Pet Shop Boys)

Give Thanks is one of my very favorite songs btw, but I'll never be able to sing it without giggling again.

BK

(Umm Ken, "Best Beloved"? "Light of my eyes"? Anything that you might want to be telling me [Razz] )
 
Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Last year we did a modified version of 'Venus' where the title was changed to 'Jesus'.

I kid you not.
 
Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
Remember the flintstones.....

i remember singing 'jesus, meet with Jesus, he's the greatest one in history......' etc
 
Posted by Little Ms Chatterbox (# 86) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisT:
Last year we did a modified version of 'Venus' where the title was changed to 'Jesus'.

I kid you not.

[Confused] How would that work?! I could be mistaken, but didn't the words go something like:

I'm your Venus, I'm your fire, Your desire ..

Is it just me or would that wound rather odd if you put 'Jesus' in instead of Venus?
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
I just found this thread and have been [Killing me] [Killing me] for the last hour. Brings back fond [Snigger] memories..
When my brother- & sister-in-law married in the 70s, they had that sappy Carpenters song, "For all we know" christianized to, "Lord, look on the two of us" and "Love will grow, for all to know." But they kept in the line about "Strangers in many ways," which I always thought was an inauspicious start to a marriage. Oh well, 25 yrs and 4 kids later, what do I know?
Newman's Own, you have the lyrics to "Another You" just right, as I recall them. I loved the song but never thought of it in the context of holy orders! Also, you mention:
quote:

after a lapse of about thirty years, somehow my mind became filled with memories of a dreadful song about

Put your hand in the hand of the man who stilled the water,

I don't know if this was ever used in a worhsip service, but I admit to owning a 45 rpm of this sung in French by Nana Mouskouri.

Anna B, Not that I could ever sing "Earth and All Stars" with a straight face (even tho I kinda like it), but your "Loud flushing toilets" verse takes the cake! [Not worthy!]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Oops, looks like I did the quote thingy wrong. [Embarrassed] Sorry.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Anyone remember this gem, which was sung in a "round" and could go on nearly forever? It loses its impact, admittedly, if one does not know the dreary tune.

Love, love, love, love,
Christians this is your call.
Love your neighbour as yourself,
For God loves all.

Then again, that was probably a cut above "They'll Know we are Christians by Our Love," which assumed that we had already arrived.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
I most sincerely appologise if "Shine, Jesus, Shine" has been addressed already. If it has, it probably hasn't been addressed in this way: have you ever heard "Shine, Jesus, Shine" on a pipe organ? If you haven't, save yourself the trouble. I've been through it, and I would rather have my head slammed into a brick wall than hear that attrocious combination again. That song was last played over a year ago. I told the pastors I would leave if that song was ever played again. Fortunately, my threat carries some weight since I am the bell choir director.

While working overseas and looking for a church, after four weeks at one I thought it was it: great people, good sermons and services, great hymns, nice pipe organ.

And guess what was played on the fifth week? On the pipe organ?

And guess who never went back?

Sauerkraut, you are right. It was the most horrific experience one can imagine.

Admiral.
 
Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
quote:

Originally posted by little Miss Sparkle:
How would that work?! I could be mistaken, but didn't the words go something like:

I'm your Venus, I'm your fire, Your desire ..

Is it just me or would that wound rather odd if you put 'Jesus' in instead of Venus?


This reminded me of the time my Dad walked out of an Easter service when I was a teenager (some 25 years ago). The vicar had chosen a hymn which was sung to the tune of the Drunken Sailor. The chorus went thusly
quote:
Way-oh and up he rises
Way-oh and up he rises
Way-oh and up he rises
Early in the morning.

And, on the topic of inappropriate wedding hymns I have two favourites, I'm dreaming of a white Christmas and Balfour Gardiner's wonderful but puzzling as a choice for a wedding Evening hymn with its second verse about defending us from all nightly fears and fantasies.

And yes, I have been present at a wedding for each of these.

Deborah
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Holder:
While working overseas and looking for a church, after four weeks at one I thought it was it: great people, good sermons and services, great hymns, nice pipe organ.

And guess what was played on the fifth week? On the pipe organ?

And guess who never went back?

Sauerkraut, you are right. It was the most horrific experience one can imagine.

Admiral.

I am sorry you had to go through that. Really, I wouldn't want even my worst enemy to have to go through that torture. It is so bad with me that I cannot listen to any version of that song anymore without hearing the organ moaning like a dying whale in my head. It is making the hair on the back of my neck stand up just thinking about it.

Why I continue to put up with my church, I do not even know. The Sunday after I wrote my complaint on this board, guess what song was played (if you can call it that) on the organ. I have yet to confront the pastors about this last offence, but I do not think I have to. Many more people have come to their senses and complained about the song. The next voter's meeting, I might propose a bylaw banning any incarnation of that song from ever being played in the church again.
 
Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Then again, that was probably a cut above "They'll Know we are Christians by Our Love," which assumed that we had already arrived.

My dad used to sing, out loud and in church, "They'll know we are Christians by our bumper stickers". [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
Sauerkraut:
My sincerest sympathies regarding the "resurrection" of *that* song.

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie:
Anyone remember the Sunday School collection hymn

Dropping, dropping dropping
Hear the pennies fall
Every one for Jesus.
He shall have them all.

Indeed: and our leaders' talents extended to:

"Swiping, swiping, swiping
Swiping credit cards.
Every card for Jesus!
He shall have them all!"

Despite the lack of the rhyme, how many 10 year olds have Credit Cards?

I seem to remember cheques being mentioned as well: can't remember that, thankfully!

Admiral.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Then again, that was probably a cut above "They'll Know we are Christians by Our Love," which assumed that we had already arrived.

Argh! I had forgotten this one!

Try the lines "We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand" as you stroll around the hall grabbing the hands of the nearest person and "walking hand in hand" with them [or if, you were like me, trying to avoid everyone while the enthusiastic worship leader clapped and pranced down the aisles, enjoining all to follow suit].

On another issue...one good memory of some bad songs, though: a parishioner with a wonderfully wicked sense of humour [and who knew "modern" songs weren't my thing] used to "do the twist" next to me with a wry smile as the guitar and drums took centre-stage...

Admiral.
 
Posted by Thumbprint (# 3056) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
A verse for 'Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so' that I can't find in my hymn-book, but that we sung at our Sunday School run by some independent evangelical folk went like this.

'Jesus loves the Indian boy
bow and arrow for his toy;
And he loves the cowboy, too
with his horse and big lassoo

Yes, Jesus loves me, Yes, Jesus loves me etc'

Were we the only ones to sing this er... rather unusual version?

Mine was even more horrible than yours.

Jesus loves the Indian Boy,
Bow and arrow for a toy.
Big Filipino, small Chinese
They live far across the seas

[Help]

As bad as this chorus is, Shine Jesus Shine on a pipe organ still wins the top prize - I HATE that song! [Projectile]

T.
 
Posted by Thumbprint (# 3056) on :
 
Just thought of another verse (must have been repressed inside the dark recesses of my mind) You will know why after reading this...

Jesus loves me when I'm good
When I do the things I should
Jesus loves me when I'm bad
Though it makes him VERY sad.

T.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Just wondering - Though "Jesus Loves Me" is dreadful in any case, are the verses about Indians, cowboys, and the other things mentioned here part of the "official" hymn, or were they made up by some well intentioned local fool who was looking to make things more relevant?

I mention this because, when on relevance duty during the 1960s, I heard some really ghastly adaptations, where verses were written by someone on a parish's staff. (That is probably illegal, come to think of it.) As one example which sadly sticks in my memory, one nun wrote her own version of "Blowing in the Wind," which began with "How many times must their blood be shed - Before they know that it's mine?"

Of course, sometimes even I make allowances (however grudgingly). Once, I saw a group of children, aged three, sing "Father Noah had an Ark," an original adaptation of "Old MacDonald had a Farm." Had they been aged four, I would have protested.

In one RC parish of which I knew (and, of course, never attended), the head of the religious education programme was constantly re-writing hymns - not only to make sure God was never referred to as He, but to eliminate all mention of sin, forgiveness, or anything else that would potentially wound the self esteem of the godly children. I wish I could recall a few - they were gems - but my memory mercifully has emptied the recycling bin.
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
In one RC parish of which I knew (and, of course, never attended), the head of the religious education programme was constantly re-writing hymns - not only to make sure God was never referred to as He, but to eliminate all mention of sin, forgiveness, or anything else that would potentially wound the self esteem of the godly children.

Goodness, isn't that against the RC rules or such? Or is omission not the same as openly saying different things? [Eek!]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
ChastMastr,
As far as I know, though it would be illicit to change the texts of the Eucharist itself, there are no such prohibitions on the verses of hymns. There are (as far as I know, still) particular texts of collects, entrance rites, and so forth, which are proper to services, but hymns used at entrance, offertory, communion, and the like allow for great variety.

Of course, things do get... creative at times. I well remember a house of nuns of which I knew, where the Sisters recited the "Office of Readings" daily. Each Sister had a turn at selecting the scripture and patristic readings to be used - there are ample selections from which to choose. One of them did not use readings at all, because "the Lord kept sending her prophecies."
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Wow! I figured the whole nihil obstat and imprimatur business would be absolute necessities for hymns as well...
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
How could we forget...

quote:

Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham
Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham
Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham
Oh, rock my soul

So high (reach up you hip-young youth!) I can't get over it
So low (reach down LOW!) I can't get under it
So wide (spread out your hands) I can't get round it
Oh, rock my soul

Rock my soul
Rock my soul
Rock my soul
Oh, rock my soul

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Wow! I figured the whole nihil obstat and imprimatur business would be absolute necessities for hymns as well...

Dare I confess ignorance and ask for a quick explanation - or link - to nihil obstat and imprimatur?

Admiral H.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Dear Admiral,
In the Roman Church, both nihil obstat and imprimatur are certifications that a book or other written publication is free from errors in faith and morals - without implying that the diocese issuing the imprimatur supports the views. Respectively, the terms refer to certification by whomever is the diocesan censor of books, with the latter being the formal declaration by the bishop.

Until the new code of canon law was issued in 1983, imprimatur was a strict requirement - magazines, articles, etc., written by priests and religious all were submitted in order to be considered Catholic.

Of course, many an author used the imprimatur by taking its name in vain! For example, banking on the ignorance of the general population, a priest who wrote a devotional 'biography' of some obscure candidate for sainthood would answer critics with "the work has an imprimatur" - as if that meant the 'saint' was a shoo in for canonisation.
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
I'm not even going to check to see if this one has been mentioned, but every time this one shows up on Sunday morning, my worship time is RUINED! RUINED, I tell ya!

I think it's called "The Heart of Worship," . . . I think. Frankly, I shield my eyes when it comes up on the OHP, so I'm not sure.

As with most crappy choruses, it's not just the words, the tune, or the way certain lines are emphasized. It's the way they all combine.

-----------

When the music fades
and all is stripped away
and I simply come,
longing just to bring
something that's of worth
that will bless Your heart.[1]

I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You have required.[2]
You search much deeper within
through the way things appear[3]
You're looking into my heart.

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about You.
It's all about You, Jesus.
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,[4]
when it's all about You,
it's all about You, Jesus.

---------
[1] First thing that gets me is the idea that I'm going to "bless Jesus' heart." It's theologically questionable, and it's overly precious. So I'm already cringing from the start.

[2] "For a song in itself is not what you have required"? Huh? The phrasing is awkward enough, but the song is already running in circles at this point. (Which, now that I think about it, may be fitting for some forms of worship.)

[3] I'm chewing aluminum foil when we hit "You search much deeper within through the way things appear." At this point I find myself thinking "What am I singing about anyway? 'Things'?" Some precise writing please!

[4] And then we hit "the thing I've made it." Once again, we're singing about a "thing" followed by the pronoun "it," which always has me searching for an antecedent. I'm lost and confused by this point, having no idea what the subject matter of this song is.

The song seems to be a worship song about singing worship songs, with Jesus as a passive receiver of "blessing." So, in a sense, it's not so much about praise to our God than it is about navel-gazing on the part of the singer. While I would agree that self-reflection is a necessary part of coming before God, in this case it doesn't quite work for me.

There's another verse, but I don't know it. At this point I've usually excused myself to visit the restroom.

(Sigh.) Thanks for letting me vent.
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Not to forget it seems to have been written by someone with the poetic soul of McGonagal (spelling?)
 
Posted by Belacqua (# 3977) on :
 
And then of course, there's the contextually relevant - and awful - children's chorus I once heard -

Aband
Aband
Abandon ship
Jump into the lifeboat of the Lord
 
Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on :
 
I had a little search for this one but couldn't find it. It astonished me it hasn't come up before!

It's by Tim Hughes, called My Jesus My Lifeline, nicknamed by one of my more cynical friends, "My Jesus my girlfriend". Here, for your edification and delight, is the first verse.

quote:
My Jesus, my lifeline
I need you more than I've ever known
There's no-one quite like you
I'm crying out for your loving

How anyone can sing the final line without a trace of "huh?" or "WTF?!" is beyond me. Whilst being the gungho happy clappy I am I appreciate the sentiment, I mean, could it be phrased any more sexually? Almost as bad as

quote:
Take me just the way I am
Wake up people.

I hereby declare it obligatory for all Christian songwriters to get at least one normal person (pref non Christian) to read their songs to check for innuendo and sheer dumbness.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sheriff Pony:
I think it's called "The Heart of Worship," . . . I think. Frankly, I shield my eyes when it comes up on the OHP, so I'm not sure.

To be fair, I think it was intended more as a personal song used in performance by the writer. A sort of apology for having inglicted so many glib choruses on the church

I don't think he ever meant it to be routinely used as a congregational hymn at the 10:30 Communion

[Smile]
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
The one that gets me every time, from "Over the Mountains and the Sea":

Oh I feel like dancing
It's foolishness I know
For when the world has seen the light
They will dance with joy like we're dancing no-o-ow...

Where I go this song is usually sung as a slow-ish worshipful thing rather than boppy and dancey, so whenever that bit gets sung I always have to do a double take - I *don't* feel like dancing (never do), and *nobody* is dancing now. Although whenever that last line is sung there's usually someone who'll start shuffling guiltily.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
There is a great tradition of poetry describing our relationship with God in terms of a loving and potentially "romantic" relationship...(see Rowan Williams' address at Greenbelt last year, which is probably still available from the Greenbelt website, and puts all this very well...)

When the poetry is artistically good it all can seem very appropriate. It is when you have verse after verse of trite rubbish as above that the conceit runs into problems...
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
The one that gets me every time, from "Over the Mountains and the Sea":

Oh I feel like dancing
It's foolishness I know
For when the world has seen the light
They will dance with joy like we're dancing no-o-ow...

Where I go this song is usually sung as a slow-ish worshipful thing rather than boppy and dancey, so whenever that bit gets sung I always have to do a double take - I *don't* feel like dancing (never do), and *nobody* is dancing now. Although whenever that last line is sung there's usually someone who'll start shuffling guiltily.

I know this one as "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever," and it tends to go on . . . forever. ("This is the song that never ends / It goes on and on my friends") And if it must be sung at all, the bridge portion that you quote above should be left out. In my staid, conservative Lutheran church such a sight would be . . . inconceivable!
 
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sheriff Pony:
I think it's called "The Heart of Worship," . . . I think. Frankly, I shield my eyes when it comes up on the OHP, so I'm not sure......

-----------

When the music fades
and all is stripped away
and I simply come,
longing just to bring
something that's of worth
that will bless Your heart.[1]

I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You have required.[2]
You search much deeper within
through the way things appear[3]
You're looking into my heart.

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about You.
It's all about You, Jesus.
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,[4]
when it's all about You,
it's all about You, Jesus.

---------.

I quite agree with all your comments, Sheriff Pony. My added gripe is that the writer keeps saying that worship is all about God, and then starting talking about himself again. Now, I don't mind songs of the "This is where I'm at" variety, as long as they're not overused. However, saying that you've sinned by making worship all about yourself, while singing a song which is essentially all about yourself, is a bit much!

All the best,

Rachel.
 
Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sheriff Pony:
I'm not even going to check to see if this one has been mentioned, but every time this one shows up on Sunday morning, my worship time is RUINED! RUINED, I tell ya!

I think it's called "The Heart of Worship," . . . I think. Frankly, I shield my eyes when it comes up on the OHP, so I'm not sure.

As with most crappy choruses, it's not just the words, the tune, or the way certain lines are emphasized. It's the way they all combine.


Amen! Amen! I rarely get up and leave a service, but it's either that or risk apoplexy when this ditty is sung. And for some insane reason, our choir seem to LIKE it. [Help]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by simon 2:
In reference to the tree song, I read it as 'then I'll be a bloomin tree'. Bloomin as in 'aye that were a bloomin fine pint'.

Aye, and for sure if you'd been a Roman, you'd have known the glorious hymn, "Oh, Mary, Queen of Blooming May." (Mercifully, I remember only that first phrase.) Selah.

I am always much annoyed with misplaced modifiers. I can remember when one 'folk' hymn of the 1960s, entitled "Hear, O Lord" contained the verse: "Every night before I sleep, I pray my soul to take; Or else I pray that loneliness is gone when I awake." The author, I'm sure, did not intend to express that line's literal meaning - let me die tonight if I'll be lonely tomorrow!

I vaguely remember another hymn, though most of the verses escape me, in which one verse ended with the line, "and we knew He was God when He rose from the dead, and we know that His love will never end." Unfortunately (and please remember this was before the days of inclusive language), the next verse was,

How can I be a friend to my fellow man?
To the stranger I meet along the way?
I'll remind him that he came to earth to set us free,
And his friendship and love will show the way.

Quite frankly, were a stranger, upon meeting me, to inform me that I had come to earth to set us free, I would be unlikely to cultivate a friendship with said individual. My schedule is full enough.
 
Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
The one that gets me every time, from "Over the Mountains and the Sea":

<snip>

Where I go this song is usually sung as a slow-ish worshipful thing rather than boppy and dancey, so whenever that bit gets sung I always have to do a double take - I *don't* feel like dancing (never do), and *nobody* is dancing now. Although whenever that last line is sung there's usually someone who'll start shuffling guiltily.

What actually makes it strangest is that the song is quite lively until you get to the bit about dancing, at which point dancing is just impossible!
 
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
Add to that the fact that the words MAKE NO SENSE AT ALLL!!!!!!!! How can a river run OVER mountains and sea? The whole thing is bollocks, words and music [Mad]
 
Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
theres a song that my minister likes. and oh! i can't tell him what mental image it conjures up for me... it goes:

lovely appear
over the mountains
the feet of those that preach
and bring good news (um, i have to admit i forget the next two words... its either "of love", "of god" or "to men")

anyway, all i can think of whenever i hear it is people walking on theor hands up the side of a hill so that as they crest it, the first thing that comes over the top isn't their heads, it's their feet.
 
Posted by ej (# 2259) on :
 
There's a line in one of the Delirious tracks which people seem to have pinched for use in congregational worship (Don't ask me why as the chorus is pitched WAY too high for your normal punter)...

"Dancers who dance upon injustice"

What the?! For one, it's just plonked into the middle of the chorus with no particular context. Second, what exactly is that supposed to mean? Thirdly, this just sounds hideous coming from an upper middle class church of ppl who not only aren't dancing, but who you know are going to go home with little inclination to do anything about injustice in the world, but will instead drive their large family sedan to McDonalds before going home and changing into their Nikes... Go figure.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
lovely appear
over the mountains
the feet of those that preach
and bring good news

That's the Bible! It's from Isaiah 52!

If its what I think it is it is also probably the best-known Christian song in the English language from the past 40 years, "Our God Reigns" by Leonard Smith. Heck, even the Pope likes it. And it is in the top ten most-requested songs from CCL.
 
Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
well i'm sorry, it still makes me think of people walking on their hands. very silly.
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
How come everytime I rant about "Shine, Jesus, Shine" on this board it always manages to pop up in the awful organ rendition? The group who wants to see that song buried within my church, however, is growing. I think the next time they even think about playing that song, there will be a mass revolt. I do not know why I haven't left yet.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
I went to a sevice at a certain large charismatic evangelical church in Oxford recently that has just completely renovated itself and acquired a lot of overhead projectors and videoscreens. At a cost i understand of several millions. It has built a large walk in bath thing for total body immersions and when I went along it had 7 dunkees lined up. (I was sitting next to a pair of very nice bemused parents)

And - to get to the point - it was so convenient having read this thread because although I don't come from that tradition, I was familiar with so many of the words from your posts! Oh, we danced upon injustice and sang of His love forever, let me tell you, with very great enthusiasm.

It did seem a shame really that with all that passion to be expended, there wasn't a vehicle of greater poetic and musical profundity and sensitivity to express it with...
 
Posted by Lots of Yay (# 2790) on :
 
A source (obviously a reliable one, although I can't remember who it was) told me that churches in my diocese have been asked to cease doing Shine, Jesus Shine. Not sure if it's true or not but I haven't heard that song for a very long time... except for when I started a rendition of it round the fire at the youth camp with some kids from a S,JS-singing school and was almost killed by everyone else who was around in the 80s. One of the girls there told me that she knew seven verses for S,JS - surely she's wrong!

Now, on to today's crappy chorus nomination. It's in the "Jesus my boyfriend" genre and has a refrain of "Jesus I am so in love with you", at the end of each verse and the chorus and probably a few times in between. I'm not actually sure what it's called (probably something like "Jesus I am so in Love with you" I'm guessing). Sorry, not a fan. I believe it's from the people who brought us "Come, now is the time to worship".
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
It goes:

You are God in heaven
And here am I on earth
So I'll let my words be few
Jesus I am so in love with you

(There's a few more lyrics but I don't want to break any copyright laws.)

I have several problems with this song. Firstly, the first two lines are stating the bleedin' obvious. (Yes, I know it's a Bible verse. Doesn't mean it makes a good lyric.)

Secondly, letting my words be few isn't the same as letting my words be trite. Or soppy.

Thirdly, we sing it over several times, so we haven't exactly let our words be few, have we? Rather like the old self-defeating song

"So forget about yourself and concentrate on Him and worship Him" (sung 3 times).

Mind you, it has a really nice goosebump-inducing chord in the first line. I suspect that's why musicians use it. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Forgot to mention 'Here I am to worship', which is not a bad song apart from the line

'You're altogether lovely, altogether worthy, altogether wonderful to me'.

(a) it's soppy, particularly for a man to sing;

(b) it always reminds me of Terry Pratchett's multiple-personality character called Altogether Andrews. One of these days I'm going to catch myself singing 'You're Altogether Andrews', and with my luck I'll be miked up at the time.
 
Posted by Tom Day (# 3630) on :
 
Thank you for bringing that one up, i always cringe and burst out laughing when i sing that one at CU

'Altogether lovely' which means????

Just like saying, jesus is nice.

tom
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
What's wrong with soppy?

You'll be telling me I have to hand in my videotape of Sleepless in Seattle next.

Anyway "altogether lovely" means what it says. Completely worthy of love. If we cut out all the bible stuff & all the bleeding obvious what would be left?
 
Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
...You'll be telling me I have to hand in my videotape of Sleepless in Seattle next.
...

Burn it.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
The comment above inspired me to write a short song which I believe the Rev Gerald Ambulance would be proud of:

Oh God, you're really nice
I love you so much, I'll sing it twice (x2)

[Wink]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Why is it that I just know that Gill's contribution will be in some 'praise songs' collection by the end of the year?
 
Posted by Mo's is (# 4010) on :
 
quote:
Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham
Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham
Rock my soul in the bosom of Abraham
Oh, rock my soul

So high (reach up you hip-young youth!) I can't get over it
So low (reach down LOW!) I can't get under it
So wide (spread out your hands) I can't get round it
Oh, rock my soul

Rock my soul
Rock my soul
Rock my soul
Oh, rock my soul

When we first sang this when I was quite young I thought the words were "rocker my soul in the bosom on Adrian" which was confusing as who was Adrian and why did he have bosoms?? people dont realise how much they can confuse kids...
 
Posted by madkaren (# 1033) on :
 
Rock my soul in the bosom of abraham???

The ver sion I learnt as a kiddle was jesus' love is very wonderful, jesus' love is very wonderful...etc

And as for the one about dancers dancing on injustice (Did you hear the mountains tremble), did anybody else sing it an octave down so it sounded like a football chant?

And on that note, does anyone remember:
(To the Match of the Day tune)
Why don't you put your trust in Jesus
And ask Him to come in
He saw your need from up in heaven
And dies to forgive your sin
Why don't you put your trust in Jesus
and let Him take control
Cause He's the Son of God who loved you
and He died to save your soul

MadKaren
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I'd like to nominate 'Come, thou fount of every blessing', which I've only just discovered.

Largely for the lines:

"Praise the mount - I'm fixed upon it
Mount of thy redeeming love"

A good hymn for a jockey perhaps?

I'm amazed that my former church in Swansea, Mount Pleasant (commonly known as 'Mount') didn't have this one as a theme song!

(Then in the next verse I tried rhyming 'Ebenezer' with 'pleasure' and gave up.)
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Thank you for reminding me of an old favourite, Gill. It's sung much more in the States than over here, though the ECUSA hymnal has a bowdlerized version of the second verse. Together, verses 1 and 2 must demonstrate one of the heights of naive obscenity in the hymnal. No one in my family can say "Here I raise my Ebenezer" without the lot of us collapsing helplessly. Someone, please put in a link to the cyberhymnal.
 
Posted by oswald (# 3910) on :
 
The hymn that makes me laugh is the one they sometimes sing in the respectable Anglican church where my son is a chorister. It isn't particularly funny, but it is written by Bernadette Twomey and the chorus is:

And they shall raise me up
And they shall raise me up
And they shall raise me up
On the last day

It should only ever be sung by Irish nuns (I'm RC so I can say this) in a windswept West Coast convent, not by an Anglican choir in a terribly beautiful and austere CofE church.
 
Posted by oswald (# 3910) on :
 
I beg your pardon, that should have read:

For I will raise him up
For I will raise him up etc

It was Our Lord speaking, I forgot; the effect is the same though.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Come thou fount of every blessing here, though I haven't heard of an Ebenezer being used as a swear word or obscene term before, Amos.

In fact, I don't understand what the line in the hymn is supposed to mean.

(My Welsh grandfather's second name was Ebenezer, so namewise, perhaps I was lucky in being born a girl and getting called after my 2 grandmothers instead)
 
Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by oswald:
I beg your pardon, that should have read:

For I will raise him up
For I will raise him up etc

It was Our Lord speaking, I forgot; the effect is the same though.

Ya know, I agree that this song is naff and gooey, but it makes me cry. If I read the words or hear others sing it, I find it completely gag worthy. But as soon as I join in the singing, I get a huge gut punch from the Holy Spirit. Go figger.
 
Posted by Frederick Buechner's Lovechild (# 4058) on :
 
I remember a chorus we sang ages ago in our church, which kind of summed up its ethos at the time - it was along the lines of:

Well, we don't know who we are
and we don't know where we're going
and we don't know where we've been
but won't you come with us anyway?

Hurrah for the metaphor of journey!

If this rings vague bells with anyone, I'd love to know exactly what the original was, because it clearly made a lasting impression on me.

While I'm at it, how about these for a couple of suggested titles for songs in the contemporary evangelical idiom

"Jesus, I want to stroke your hair" (A kind of romantic power-ballad)

"Our God is better than your God" (Triumphal, marching (or better still, goose-stepping) along.
 
Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :
 
From the Statler Brothers album entitled simply 'The bible'

1.

Well Buddha was a man
and I'm sure that he meant well
but I pray for his disciples
'lest they end up in Hell.....

2.

Oh Eve!
She was only a rib
but look what she did
to Adam the father of man.....

Raspberry Rabbit
Montreal, QC
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Check out Rev Gerald's Ministry Manual. The 'warfare' song is particularly moving.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
"And I will raise him up"... Oh, yes. That horrid "I Am the Bread of Life."

One acquaintance of mine, who is a 'song leader' in an RC Church, was telling me that, horrible though that song is, her parish uses it with regularity because the congregation so loves it that it is one of few hymns for which they'll sing all 168 verses.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
When I was part of a Catholic Charismatic prayer group, the guitarist told me that one song

"let us break bread together on our knees
let us break bread together on our knees..."

always made him think of someone smacking a baguette against a high kicking knee...
 
Posted by Hope Seeker (# 4051) on :
 
Hi everyone...hope this is the right place to post this! (I'm a bulletin board neophyte)

This isn't a "horrible hymn" per se, but last Sunday in church I had to laugh at a line in our hymn book:

"For you who to Jesus for refuge have fled"

("yoo hoo to Jesus"???)

Also in the category of things misheard...

Last year I took a teenage friend to a Book of Common Prayer (Anglican Church of Canada) service. During the Eucharistic Prayer, she suddenly turned to me with this stunned look on her face. She had misheard a line of the prayer:

The actual line: "And we entirely desire thy fatherly goodness"

What she heard: "And we entirely desire thy chocolately goodness"

I don't think I'll be able to kneel through that prayer anymore without thinking of chocolately goodness!!!

Have a good day [Killing me]
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
oswald,

That shocker to which you refer (i.e. "I am the Bread of Life") has had its authorship (at least here in Oz) ascribed to one Suzanne Toolan,SM(an Australian Marist Sister, to the uninitiated). It should most definitely NOT be sung by a passel of Irish nuns as theses ladies tend to have (collectively) the worst vibrato to be heard outside of the Bullamakanka Choral Society.

It would be worth paying money to have it permanently banned.

cheers,

m
 
Posted by Pewgilist (# 3445) on :
 
I remarkably popular tune (at least in Ontario in the eighties) went...

He's cooooming soooon,
He's cooooming soooon,
With joy we wait for His
Re-tur-ur-ning.

It maaaay be mooorn,
It may be night or noon,
I know, he's co-uh-mi-ing
Soooooon.

All this to the tune of -- pardon my Hawaiian -- "Aloha Hoy".

Who comes up with these things?
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hope Seeker:
What she heard: "And we entirely desire thy chocolately goodness"

One acquaintance of mine had told me that, when he was young, he'd heard "All Hail the Power of Jesus' name, let angels prostrate fall," and thought that a fallen prostate was an unfortunate condition which one would think a horrid thing to wish on an angel.
 
Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
He stands up and nervously clears his throat...

Hello, my name is Sine N., and...and...I LIKE "I am the bread of life"

He bursts into tears and runs from the room.
 
Posted by Frederick Buechner's Lovechild (# 4058) on :
 
I have a vivid memory of Spring Harvest's Youth Programme in 1991 when I was a youth leader. There were 800 young people there, we were in the middle of a chorus, and had reached the point when the house band would spontaneously (!) go into an instrumental break to allow singing in tongues. (Funny how - with constant repetition - spontaneity just becomes new dogma....)

The lead singer of the group closed his eyes and launched out in glossalalic rapture, carrying most of the audience with him. We were in heaven! [Angel]

So it came as kind of a surprise, amid the soft, tuneful murmuring of tongues, to hear the singer (in his Brummie accent) address the soundman directly with the instruction "Bit more guitar in the monitors, Dave". What impressed me most, though, was how quickly he managed to return to a state of ecstasy after that.... a rare talent, I thought!
 
Posted by Abu Wuza (# 614) on :
 
FB's L, that's clearly a case of 1 Cor 14:32. [Big Grin]

AW
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Perhaps this one entered my mind after many years because I'm not feeling well and therefore cannot attend the peace rally today, but, for all that I sympathise with the basic sentiments of this hymn (which I don't think was that popular), it was just so... gushy. Of course, it does not have its full impact without the sentimental melody.

Refrain:
Peace I leave with you my friends,
Shalom, my peace in all you do.
Peace I leave with you my friends.
I give to you so you can give to others too.

Verses:
To share his love is why I came,
To show his kindness to all men,
Go now, my friends, and do the same.
Until I come again.

Take my hand and be at peace,
The spirit of his love I send,
And with that love you will be free,
Until I come again.

(I cannot remember the other verses - there was at least one other.)
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
The current thread on 'joy' in purgatory must have sparked yet another memory of dreadful music. Who remembers this one? The tune vaguely resembled the sort of song which may have been used for common voices raised in song in Elizabethan ale houses.

The joy of the Lord is my strength,
The joy of the Lord is my strength,
The joy of the Lord is my strength,
The joy of the Lord is my strength.

Then, with appropriate gestures, there were verses in which we learnt:
If you want joy, you must dance/clap/reach for it.
(Repeated as with the refrain).

The last verse was best of all, again repeated continuously.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha ha.
 
Posted by Lioba (# 42) on :
 
Imagine all that crap posted so far translated into German by someone with a limited knowledge of English and no creative command of German.

I used to go to church where worship consisted for the most part of such "songs", of course all sung from projections by OHP. [Mad]

Needless to say, I left.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Viki, I almost choked! [Big Grin]

All right, old timers, who remembers this 60s gem (for which the melody reminded me of some sort of old film about American Indians.)

We are one in the Spirit,
We are one in the Lord,
We are one in the Spirit,
We are one in the Lord,
And we pray that all unity shall one day be restored.

Refrain:
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
Yes, they'll know we are Christians by our love.

We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand,
We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand,
And together we'll spread the news that God is in our land. (Refrain)

We will work with each other, we will work side by side,
We will work with each other, we will work side by side,
And we'll guard each man's dignity,
And save each man's pride. (Refrain)

All praise to the Father, from whom all things come,
And all praise to Christ Jesus, his only Son.
And all praise to the Spirit who makes us one.
(Refrain)

Of course, the song was bad enough - without the smug sorts who, in protesting any form of traditional worship, would smugly (the tones cannot be reproduced on 'paper') retort "they'll know we are Christians by our love," as if they had just thought of that line.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
Newman's Own: dare I say that "They'll know we are Christians by our love" is still being sung in some quarters of the Sydney Anglican Diocese?

I despised the song...and most of its ilk.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
For the edification and delight of all present, I shall now post the worst Roman Catholic hymn of all times - for all that some people have fond memories of singing this for First Communion:

Thou hast come to my heart,
dearest Jesus,
I am holding Thee close to my breast;
I'm telling Thee over and over,
Thou art welcome, O Little White Guest.
I love Thee, I love Thee, my Jesus,
O please do not think I am bold;
Of course, Thou must knowest that I love Thee,
But I'm sure that Thou likest to be told.
I'll whisper, "I love Thee, my Jesus,"
And ask that we never may part;
I love Thee, O kind, Loving Jesus
And press Thee still nearer my heart.
And when I shall meet Thee in Heaven,
My soul then will lean on Thy Breast.
And Thou will recallest our fond meetings,
When Thou wert my little White Guest.
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Ick.....

Admiral, you are not going to tell us that some Sydney Anglicans might sing "For they;'ll know we are Christians etc"????

Hasn't anyone told them that it is a Romish ditty??!!

cheers,

m
 
Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Refrain:
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
Yes, they'll know we are Christians by our love.

I think I mentioned this before, but my dad liked to loudly sing "They'll know we are Christians by our bumperstickers". Mom wanted to crawl away.
 
Posted by Cassandra W (# 4098) on :
 
Howdy Y'all
quote:
Come thou fount of every blessing here, though I haven't heard of an Ebenezer being used as a swear word or obscene term before, Amos.

In fact, I don't understand what the line in the hymn is supposed to mean.

Ebenezer means "stone of help", at least that's what it means in 1Sam 7:12.

Just want to say "Thanks" to all posters in this thread for convincing me that there are worse choruses than the ones we sing in our congregation. (though I'm having bad flashbacks to youth camp/retreat from the 70's [Eek!] )

My candidate for most annoying is the following:

"Thou, O Lord, are a shield about me, You're my glory, You're the lifter of my head."

The imagery is from the Psalms, no problems there, but the first line contains the most pointlessly gratuitous use of "THOU" that I've ever seen. It's as if the writer just stuck a "thou" in to make the song sound "churchy" or "holy". But to me it's as irritating as singing "You, O Lord, is ...". [Mad]

OK, feel better for saying that. Oh, and am I the only one who has ever sung the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme?

Cassandra
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Welcome aboard, Cassandra W, and thanks for your thoughts on this long-running thread.

I'm sure you have already read the 10 Commandments - see left - and are conscientiously reading the preambles to each Board [Big Grin]

So enjoy yourself as you explore all the parts of the Ship!

Yours aye ... TonyK, Dead Horses Host
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
All right, old timers, who remembers this 60s gem (for which the melody reminded me of some sort of old film about American Indians.)

We are one in the Spirit,
We are one in the Lord,
We are one in the Spirit,

I have fond memories of it from the 1970s, but I don't think I've heard it sung for 20 years.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
He stands up and nervously clears his throat...

Hello, my name is Sine N., and...and...I LIKE "I am the bread of life"

He bursts into tears and runs from the room.

I quite like it too.

Mainly because I remember it being sung at Communion a lot at St Nicholas's in Durham back in the mid-1970s (Revd. George Carey, vicar, he namedrops quietly). I played the guitar for it a number of times and all those clever American chords stretched our poor little British fingers, used to little more than D7. No wonder we had punk music.
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cassandra W:
Oh, and am I the only one who has ever sung the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme?

Actually, you can sing "Amazing Grace" to a large number of 1960s sitcom theme songs. Try out "The Brady Bunch" or "My Three Sons" or "The Andy Griffith Show."
 
Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cassandra W:
<snip>OK, feel better for saying that. Oh, and am I the only one who has ever sung the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme?

[aside]My brother was at a youth conference and won a free t-shirt for doing that very thing on stage in front of everybody![/end of aside]

"Give Thanks" is one of the ones that most annoys me... waaaaaay too repetitive, and with no possibility of a deeper meaning surfacing the longer you contemplate it.

I must say that I really like "Awesome God," but really only as it is done by Rich Mullins... not the way it's done in church services/youth conferences.

What gets me is that quite a few of the older hymns have great biblical lyrics that explore the implications of living a Christian life, and the character of God, etc., etc, but the melodies are soooo bad (read: non-existant) that they aren't done any more. I'm all for people with musical ability in composition taking those lyrics and resetting them. Nothing comes to mind right now, but I know that I've sung my share of them!
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
This one must be so bad that the lyrics escape me, but does anyone remember a dreadful song called "Let Us Come to the Water"? All I can remember is something about "and let all who have nothing, let them come to the Lord."
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Sorry to post again so soon, but I wanted to record this one before I forgot.

The chorus was:
Glory to God, glory,
Oh praise him, alleluia.
Glory to God, glory,
Oh praise the name of the Lord.

Each verse was as follows, with one word changed:
Sing Christ, the word (light) of the living God. (Refrain.)

The melody was beyond dreadful.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
And I rather like it, Newman's Own...

Although I found it rather hard to understand what "except for the Lord" meant in the first verse. Why the "except"? (in the context of "price" makes me think of "redemption" vouchers ...)
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Joyeux, try singing it as 'Give thanks with a grapefruit tart', or just think of it as the Village People/Pet Shop Boys song 'Go West' - it's exactly the same tune, just a better dance routine. [Wink]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
The "Glory to God, glory" that I remember is not the same one that had the 'except for the Lord' passage.

It's one of those days when I need distraction, so I'm about to unearth some other 60s gems. I believe that there must have been a weekend, c. 1965, when those who knew how to play exactly four guitar chords, and had never composed anything previously, got together and wrote about 100 pieces.

---
Refrain:
Allelu, allelu, everybody sing allelu,
For the Lord has risen, it is true.
Everybody sing Allelu. (Repeat after each verse)

Verses:
Christ was born in Bethelehem, allelu, allelu.
So that man could live again - Alleluia.

Thirty years he walked the land, allelu, allelu,
To all in need he lent his hand - Alleluia.

On the hard wood of the cross, allelu, allelu,
He suffered and he died for us - Alleluia.

---
This one irked me because it was all fellowship, no redemption.

Refrain:
Here we are, all together,
As we sing our song joyfully,
Here we are, joined together,
As we pray we'll always be.

Verses:
Join me now as friends, and celebrate
The brotherhood we share, all as one.
Keep the fire burning, kindle it with care,
And we'll all join in and sing (refrain)

Freedom we do shout, for everybody,
And, unless there is, we shall pray
That soon there will be one true brotherhood,
Let us all join in and sing (refrain).

Let us make the world an alleluia,
Let us make the world a better place,
Keep a smile handy, have a helping hand,
And we'll all join in and sing (refrain.)
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
This one must be so bad that the lyrics escape me, but does anyone remember a dreadful song called "Let Us Come to the Water"? All I can remember is something about "and let all who have nothing, let them come to the Lord."

I was talking about the third and 4th lines of this one , Newman's own, which I think are concerned with the idea of redemption...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I believe that there must have been a weekend, c. 1965, when those who knew how to play exactly four guitar chords, and had never composed anything previously, got together and wrote about 100 pieces.

They published them in a book called "Youth Praise". We used to use it in the 1970s, when it was already getting dog-eared and superannuated.

Though that wasn't ever quite as naff as the excruciating "100 Hymns for Today" which was a mixture of Peter-Paul-and-Mary style "protest songs" mixed with some sub-Vaughn Williams Anglo-Catholic polite disbelief. And, of course, has 2 or 3 seriously great songs in it, which are now in all the other books. It was the mixture of good and bad stuff that made the book so deeply embarrasing to be seen using.

Maybe the lesson is never to sing any songs first collected in the book you are singing them from.
 
Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Joyeux, try singing it as 'Give thanks with a grapefruit tart', or just think of it as the Village People/Pet Shop Boys song 'Go West' - it's exactly the same tune, just a better dance routine. [Wink]

[Killing me] I'll have to remember that the next time my church has a special service of Thanksgiving... the choir member/congregation member who can't sing and is turning purple will be me suffering from unexpressed laughter!
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joyeux:
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
Joyeux, try singing it as 'Give thanks with a grapefruit tart', or just think of it as the Village People/Pet Shop Boys song 'Go West' - it's exactly the same tune, just a better dance routine. [Wink]

[Killing me] I'll have to remember that the next time my church has a special service of Thanksgiving... the choir member/congregation member who can't sing and is turning purple will be me suffering from unexpressed laughter!
My offspring used to embarrass me by singing the football version: Allez, a les Strasbourgeois!

[Could a kind host please put the accent on the 'a' for me, please. ] [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Albatross (# 4153) on :
 
Congrats on this thread, which has caused me to re-register at last! Even if it's only to share a gem or two of my own.....

Many years ago, a Uni friend of mine came up with an alternative version of "What a friend we have in Jesus", and although I only remember the first two lines not a rendition goes by without me remembering it.
"We're all baking scones for Jesus
At the Women's Institute...."

Then there was the time when the Music Group Leader - for the last Service he was doing it for - insisted on having a particular Hymn: "God is our strength and refuge." It only became apparent during the practice why.... yes, it's one that has the Dambusters March as it's tune, and he joined in with his Kazoo. During the service itself there was much sniggering behind Service Sheets while the bemused Priest (who didn't KNOW it was the Dambusters) wondered what was so funny.

Another avenue I think is worth exploring is the confusion that can be wreaked when the same hymn is in two different books, both in use. Exhibit A in this category is "Amazing Grace". There's a version in the Methodist "Hymns and Psalms" and also Mission Praise, and one enterprising Preacher told us the number in each book. About half of us were using each book. All well and good, until the second verse, where the two books have completely different sets of words.....
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I just cannot keep away from my favourite thread. Joyeux has a wonderful point about those old hymns - no melody, great lyrics, and worthy of a revision. And the post which immediately preceded mine has me falling off my chair...

I remember, in one parish where I served, that many people just loved the horrid "folk Mass" hymn that follows. They used to ask when I was going to use it ... I refrained from saying 'over my dead body' for fear that, should I meet an untimely end, they'd play it at my funeral. (I'm using the musical phrasing for the words.)

Refrain:
Shout from the highest mountain the
Glory of the Lord
Let all men re-
Joice in him.
Sing from the highest mountain the
Praises of the Lord
Let all men know the
Wonders of our God.

There were at least three verses, but I only remember one:
For all the good things the Lord has done for us,
Let us join now in song.

---

And now, as a truly special treat, I'll record the words of the all time favourite, "Sons of God." It had perhaps fifteen verses - I'll record the ones I can remember. (It gives me a vague sense of cannibalism, even though I'm High Church.)

Refrain:
Sons of God, here his holy word,
Gather round the table of the Lord.
Eat his Body, drink His Blood.
And we'll sing a song of love,
Allelu, allelu, allelu, alleluia.

Verses (not necessarily in order - and I know there were others):

Brothers, sisters, we are one.
And our lives have just begun.
In the Spirit, we are young.
We can live forever.

Shout together to the Lord,
Who has promised our reward,
Happiness a hundredfold,
And we'll live forever.

If we want to live with him,
We must also die to him,
Die to selfishness and sin,
And we'll rise forever.

With the church we celebrate,
Jesus' coming we await,
So we make a holiday,
So we'll live forever.
 
Posted by Frederick Buechner's Lovechild (# 4058) on :
 
One that always had us in stitches is from Songs of God's People (still used in some Church of Scotlands).

It's called "Let us Talents and Tongues Employ" (which in itself can raise an eyebrow), but sticks in the memory for the chorus:

"Jesus lives again, earth can breathe again, pass the word around - Loaves Abound!"

Anytime this was sung (usually during an evening service), the juvenile among us would spend the next ten minutes trying to catch one another's attention across the room, or digging one another in the ribs, before enthusiastically mouthing the surprising good news that "Loaves Abound". [Smile]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I think this little true anecdote is one those on this thread can enjoy. Albatross's delightful post reminded me of this one.

One of my friends (who is a highly sensitive sort - the kind who can get so swept away by music or a sermon that she needs sweet tea in order to recover) used to exchange E-Mail with me daily, at around midday. Knowing she liked various hymns, I had informed her of the Cyber Hymnal site. (We are both high Anglican.)

S. e-mailed me one day and asked, "Can an Anglo-Catholic love 'What a Friend we Have in Jesus?'" I responded, "I suppose so, but I absolutely draw the line at 'There is a Fountain Filled with Blood.'"

Poor S.! She immediately responded that she'd just been putting her fork into her lunch, and, having read my response, felt too ill to eat.
 
Posted by tomb (# 174) on :
 
Well, NO, "There is a Fountain" comes out of the same revival that gave us John Newton's "Amazing Grace," though I think that Cowper went crazy either right before or right after he composed "Fountain."

Actually, it's not so bad after you get past the bloody fountain bit. "The dying thief rejoiced to see/that fountain in his day..." It also works better if you concatenate the verses and skip the repetion of the last line as a chorus.

Which reminds me: surely you have encountered Virginia Carey Hudson's Oh ye jigs and juleps, a delightful little book about growing up Episcopalian in the south. As a girl, she attended a church that was right next door to a (southern) baptist congregation where they were always singing "there is a fountain." VCH observed that she thought it "much more ladylike" to "crown a King" than to "plunge about in a bloody fountain."

And by some obscure process of mental equivalences, this reminds me of one of the truly awful songs of the 60s: "Pass It On"

quote:

It only takes a spark
To get a fire goin'
And soon all those about
Can warm up to its glowin'

Which is frighteningly close to what all we boys hoped would happen on those co-ed youth group trips.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
Which reminds me: surely you have encountered Virginia Carey Hudson's Oh ye jigs and juleps, a delightful little book about growing up Episcopalian in the south.

It is very late now, and time for a brief prayer before I finally go to sleep. I shall include one of thanksgiving that I am acquainted neither with such a book nor with the climate in which it would grow... (Incidentally, I only heard the "Fountain" song once in my life. A young man I knew, who was a minister of one of the Reformed churches, told me of his organist introducing it - bleaaah!)

I did remember "Pass it On," and your sentiments are excellent. (Wasn't the next verse, "you want to sing, it's fresh like spring" or something?) I once saw a young nun trying to teach it to elderly people (in five minutes) before a service. The melody is so 'un-singable' that it undoubtedly was sufficient penance to prepare them for the afterlife.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
continued from tomb...to torture everyone:


That's how it is with God's love,
Once you've experienced it
Your spread the love to everyone
You want to pass it on.

What a wonderous time is spring
When all the trees are budding
The birds begin to sing, the flowers start their blooming
That's how it is with God's love
Once you've experienced it.
You want to sing, it's fresh like spring
You want to pass it on.

I wish for you my friend
This happiness that I've found
You can depend on God
It matters not where you're bound
I'll shout it from the mountain top - Praise God!
I want the world to know
The lord of love has come to me
I want to pass it on


Bleh! As Newman's Own said, it is completely un-ing-able - I remember trying to sing "experienced" like "exprncd"!! The worst rendition was when we had to do a rap-style melody to it... [Help]

And everytime I heard "pass it on" I thought of some transmittable disease...though this song may fit the description!

What freaks me out is that these songs are from the 60s and yet they are wheeled on out in Sydney Anglican churches [at least the ones I used to visit] on a weekly basis...are we stuck in a time-warp down here!?!?

And multipara - I had no idea it was a Romish ditty...I didn't think Romans could ever come up with something so naff!

Admiral.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
A flash of horror...and two songs have entered my mind:

The first, Jehovah Jirah, which must have the horrid tune to unleash its full torture:

quote:

Jehovah Jirah, my provider
His grace is sufficient for me, for ME! FOR MEEEEEEEE!!!
Jehovah Jirah, my provider
His grace is sufficient for me.

My God shall supply all my needs
According to his riches in glory.
He shall give his angels charge over me
Jehovah Jireh cares for me, for ME! FOR MEEEEEEEE!!!
Jehovah Jireh cares for me!

And this, which none of us worked out how to pronounce anyway:

quote:

El Shaddai, El Shaddai,
El Elyonna Adonai,
age to age you're still the same,
by the power of the name.
El Shaddai, El Shaddai,
erkamkana Adonai,
we will praise and lift you high,
El Shaddai.

Admiral.
 
Posted by anglicanrascal (# 3412) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Though that wasn't ever quite as naff as the excruciating "100 Hymns for Today" which was a mixture of Peter-Paul-and-Mary style "protest songs" mixed with some sub-Vaughan Williams Anglo-Catholic polite disbelief.

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
 
Posted by Cusanus (# 692) on :
 
quote:
I didn't think Romans could ever come up with something so naff!

You clearly haven't seen Gather Australia
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I have to say I've sung 'Jehovah Jireh' round the house at times - usually towards the end of the month. [Wink]

I did once hear someone pray 'Lord, we know we can trust you to provide for our needs, because you are Jehovah Giro'.

[Killing me]

And I love 'El Shaddai' to listen to (preferably the original Michael Card version), but I wouldn't expect a congregation to pronounce it!
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I rather used to like Jehovah Jireh Haven't heard it for eyars. It was almost the only tune I could easily play on the flute.

I also rather like There is a Fountain. We've been known to sing it sometimes at out church.

But then I also like some of the songs of Philip Bliss. We sang Hallelujah, what a Savour! yesterday, desperatly feebly and out-of-tune, as always:

quote:

Man of Sorrows! what a name
For the Son of God, Who came
Ruined sinners to reclaim.
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Bearing shame and scoffing rude,
In my place condemned He stood;
Sealed my pardon with His blood.
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Guilty, vile, and helpless we;
Spotless Lamb of God was He;
?Full atonement!? can it be?
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Lifted up was He to die;
?It is finished!? was His cry;
Now in heav?n exalted high.
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

When He comes, our glorious King,
All His ransomed home to bring,
Then anew His song we?ll sing:
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

They don't write 'em like that any more [Smile]
 
Posted by Amelie (# 4138) on :
 
I like the song 'Man of Sorrows' very much, but I always want to sing 'stood' and 'blood' as if they rhyme with rude in the second verse which always distracts me.

I once got the giggles too when we were singing 'Our God Reigns' with the line in it that described Jesus as 'dumb as a sheep'!
 
Posted by birdie (# 2173) on :
 
This sunday, we had "when the spirit of the Lord is within my heart..."

When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart, I will sing as David sang etc, with clap, praise and dance substituted for 'sing' in each verse.

All goes swimmingly, until the 'dance as David danced' verse, at which point my only thought is 'as David danced? kit off then.'.

Husband restrained me, but only just.

b
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sheriff Pony:
quote:
Originally posted by Cassandra W:
Oh, and am I the only one who has ever sung the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme?

Actually, you can sing "Amazing Grace" to a large number of 1960s sitcom theme songs. Try out "The Brady Bunch" or "My Three Sons" or "The Andy Griffith Show."
And, since "Weird Al" Yankovic did the "Brady Bunch" theme to the tune of the 1980s pop song "The Safety Dance" (by Men Without Hats), ergo... [Razz]

You can also sing almost any Emily Dickenson poem to the tunes of these songs.

Because I could not stop for Death -- / He kindly stopped for me -- / If not for the courage of the fearless crew -- / The Minnow -- would be lost --
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Refrain:
Sons of God, here his holy word,
Gather round the table of the Lord.
Eat his Body, drink His Blood.
And we'll sing a song of love,
Allelu, allelu, allelu, alleluia.

Verses (not necessarily in order - and I know there were others):

Brothers, sisters, we are one.
And our lives have just begun.
In the Spirit, we are young.
We can live forever.

Shout together to the Lord,
Who has promised our reward,
Happiness a hundredfold,
And we'll live forever.

If we want to live with him,
We must also die to him,
Die to selfishness and sin,
And we'll rise forever.

With the church we celebrate,
Jesus' coming we await,
So we make a holiday,
So we'll live forever.

I remember the first time I heard this song. It was at a play called "Tony 'N' Tina's Wedding," which is about the Italian wedding from hell. Anyway, the groom's sister (a nun, of course), came out front with a guitar and had everyone in the church sing this song. My cousin happened to be in the play and he sent his boss ion the play to come harass me during this song. Needless to say, "eat his booty" now goes through my head whenever I hear this song. Considering how bad the song is, it is probably an improvement.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amelie:
I like the song 'Man of Sorrows' very much, but I always want to sing 'stood' and 'blood' as if they rhyme with rude in the second verse which always distracts me.

That is like me with "God rest you merry Gentlemen":

"The shepherds at these tidings rejoicèd much in mind,
And left their flocks a-feeding in tempest, storm and wind."

Most services I've been to - with a choir - rhymed "wind" with "mind": yet I'm always stuck next to someone who as well as forgetting to pronounced "rejoicèd" with two syllables - and hence ends up one beat ahead of everyone else [Big Grin] - and forgets to rhyme 'wind' with 'mind'.

I am a pendant, aren't I??? [Help]

Out of curiousity, did "mind" and "wind" once rhyme? I assume so, given the song.

Admiral.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by me:

I am a pendant, aren't I??? [Help]

Yes, I dangle off people's necks! PEDANT!

And I meant to spell "curiosity" correctly too.

[Embarrassed] Admiral. [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Out of curiousity, did "mind" and "wind" once rhyme? I assume so, given the song.

Yes.

Originally, all the -ind words had a short vowel. In monosyllables, this lengthened in the Middle English period, and then shifted from "ee" to "eye" with the great vowel shift.

However, wind, because of forms like "windmill" and "windlas" kept being attracted back to a short 'i', which it has now stablised with.
 
Posted by ThatsMrJuice2U (# 3076) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cassandra W:

OK, feel better for saying that. Oh, and am I the only one who has ever sung the hymn "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme?

Cassandra

When I lived in Atlanta, I heard a local band do Amazing Grace to the tune of "Purple Haze". That was cool! And the guitarist got so into the solo, that he would broke every guitar string but one. [Cool]
 
Posted by Frederick Buechner's Lovechild (# 4058) on :
 
Does anyone know the John Wimber song, "Beautiful, Isn't He" (Songs of Fellowship).

ISN’T HE BEAUTIFUL, beautiful isn’t He?
Prince of Peace, Son of God, isn’t He?
Isn’t He wonderful, wonderful isn’t He?
Counsellor, Almighty God, isn’t He, isn’t He, isn’t He?

I can't read this without thinking of Paul Whitehouse's character, Ron Manager, in the Fast Show.
"Isn't he, wasn't he? Small boys playing in the park? Jumpers for goalpoasts....." etc......
 
Posted by Insomniac (# 4121) on :
 
What does anyone think of 'More than oxygen'?
I can't sing it without cringing/laughing but it seems to be a favourite of our music group so maybe it's just me who has a problem with it...

Some of the highlights are;

More than oxygen I need your love/more than the life-giving food the hungry dream of

More than magnet and steel are drawn to unite/more than poets love words that rhyme as they write...I need you more than all of these things
 
Posted by bobthemagicviking (# 903) on :
 
Was at a wedding last summer where Dear Lord and Father of mankind was sung. Had to restain myself from laughing at the irony of the words at a wedding

Lines such as

"Reclothe us in our rightful mind"

"Breathe through the heats of our desire....."

etc.(Do I need to continue?) Have not been able to sing that hymn with a straight face since!
 
Posted by Frederick Buechner's Lovechild (# 4058) on :
 
quote:
More than oxygen I need your love/more than the life-giving food the hungry dream of
Nice one, Insomniac! Haven't heard it, but it reminds me of a song by Sweet in the late 70's....

"Love is like oxygen - you get too much, you get too high. Not enough and you're gonna die. Love makes you high"!

Some plagiarism going on somewhere??

quote:
Had to restain myself from laughing at the irony of the words at a wedding

What did you restain yourself with, Bob, and could you get the stain out afterwards? And what about the cremation when the chosen hymn for the contained the line "So light up the fires and let the flames burn"?! [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cusanus:
quote:
I didn't think Romans could ever come up with something so naff!

You clearly haven't seen Gather Australia
I hadn't - I used google and it came up with a letters page from the Catholic Weekly: "Is Gather Australia un-Catholic"!!! Sounds interesting.

On to the choruses...

quote:

King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Glory Hallelujah!
King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Glory Hallelujah!
Jesus Prince of Peace, Glory Hallelujah!
Jesus Prince of Peace, Glory Hallelujah!

Of course, it's obligatory to repeat 10,000 times and get faster and faster as you do...

And this...please someone tell me it is a joke!!!:

quote:

If God can love turkeys,
God can love you.
For you are a turkey,
but I am one too.
So when you're lonely, wa-ooo
Remember the truth.
If God can love turkeys,
God can love you.


 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bobthemagicviking:
Was at a wedding last summer where Dear Lord and Father of mankind was sung. Had to restain myself from laughing at the irony of the words at a wedding


Is lovely hymn. Specially the bit about dropping thy still dews of quietness & etc.

But I also heard it, I think for the first time, at a wedding. A wedding where the groom had previously badly jilted the bride,and then decided belatedly to patch things up with her. Hence it seemed pretty inappropriate to be singing
quote:

Dear Lord and Father of Mankind
Forgive our foolish ways...

- a bit too close a comment on the behaviour of the bridegroom (to whom I had taken something of a disliking by this stage...)
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Does anyone remember, during the film "Priest," the sequence where the congregation is singing a horrid song about the Israelites? (I cannot recall the lyrics in any detail.) It was a wonderful example of the worst in hymnody. I don't recall ever hearing it elsewhere (thanking God for small blessings). Was it an actual worship song, or one composed entirely for that film?

Now, with my favourite thread having stimulated some far away memories, I shall reveal a hymn I heard once - at a pentecostal service, where the lady who'd dragged me there had done so because she thought I 'had demons.' An attractive young couple, clearly from the States though I would know which part, sang a sort of 'folk rock' song, of which the following words remain in my memory. (No, I have not been drinking.)

The Lord Jesus, he done done,
The Lord Jesus, he done done,
The Lord Jesus, he done done,
He done done what He said He'd do.

The verses all were "He done (done whatever, it changed with each), he done done, etc."

Done done?!
 
Posted by Sooty Puss (# 4155) on :
 
I can't stand that 'I want to be a blooming tree' song either. Another cringe-worthy Doug Horley song is this one:

Hands, hands, finger, thumbs
We can lift to praise You
Hands, hands fingers, thumbs
We can lift to praise.

Hands, hands, fingers thumbs
We can lift to praise You
Jump front, jump back, yeah!
We were made to praise.

Admittedly it's a children's song with lots of actions. Not the sort of thing to sing in a hospital service. . . particularly when you get the line:

Got some feet a-made to dance
Let's use them now when we've got the chance . . .

Sorry Doug Horley, you have written some nice choruses in the past. this one aint one of them

[Projectile]
 
Posted by Wm Duncan (# 3021) on :
 
About "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind":

The hymn is taken from some of the later verses of a long-ish poem by John Greenleaf Whitter. Whittier, a Quaker, wrote "The Brewing of Soma", favoring the "still small voice of calm" religion over intoxicated, ecstatic, elaborate rite.

I've thought the hymnals should include all the verses -- until a gay friend objected to the opening line, "The fagots blazed ...". [Two face]

Wm Duncan
 
Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
amen
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
'Flamed' that should be, not 'blazed' [Wink]
 
Posted by Wesley S Chappell (# 4186) on :
 
I remember speaking to a Welshman at a party about Handel's Messiah. I asked him which bit he liked best and he said 'We Like Sheep'.

Needless to say we all cracked up. [Killing me]
 
Posted by Wm Duncan (# 3021) on :
 
Somehow, I picture Monty Pythonesque choreography to that one ("We like sheep.")

[Snigger]

Wm Duncan
 
Posted by GordonThePenguin (# 2106) on :
 
I recall a quotation attributed to Sir Thomas Beecham, who while conducting a rehearsal of Messiah stopped during "All we like sheep" and said:

"Gentlemen, a little more regret and a little less relish, please!"
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
My response to "All we like sheep" is "exactly how do sheep wee?"
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Well, I like lamb (and mint sauce...)
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
Being as this thread hasn't had a post in almost two weeks, I propose this little ditty that replaced the The Verse before the reading of the Gospel.

Open our eyes Lord
We want to see Jesus
To reach out and touch him
And say that we love him
Open our ears Lord
Help us to listen
Open our eyes Lord
We want to see Jesus

Of couse, this is replacing

Alleluia!
Lord to whom shall we go?
You have the words of eternal Life.
Alleluia! Alleluia!

which is Peter's confession with a few Alleluias! thrown in. The "Open my eyes Lord" is the type of "Jesus is my boyfriend" music I despise. [Mad]
 
Posted by G.R.I.T.S. (# 4169) on :
 
Thank you for this thread. I'm new, and I have laughed myself silly. We sang "Bind Us Together" at church last night, and I remember thinking it was hard to sing engagingly, if nothing else.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I never remember hearing this except in a university (1972 or so), and it can never have its impact without hearing the dreadful tune, but I well remember when the Great Amen was replaced with, "And the Lord said let it be, and the Lord said let it be, Amen, all is well, let it be."
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Good grief - I hoped 'open our eyes' had died a merciful death years ago. The odd thing is that people usually sing it with their eyes closed ...

Maybe this is also the place to mention last Sunday. We had a visiting children's worker who was, on the whole, superb. After several songs aimed at children, he got us singing a song which he claimed was particularly helpful to non-churchgoers as they already knew it. It was the Savage Garden song 'Truly Madly Deeply'.

As I'm a singer and I knew the song, I found it fun and soon had some nice harmonies and improvs going, but the words didn't really come over as a worship song. (Can't imagine telling Jesus 'I wanna bathe with you in the sea' - although coincidentally there was a baptism that morning! And 'until the sky falls down on me'? Even Revelation didn't predict that!)

For non-singers the words were not easy to fit in, and a large number of visitors that morning didn't look like they would have heard of the song. It might have worked better as background music for something else, perhaps.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I have experienced worship leaders who actually get cross with you if they have tried to get you all to join in with some 'up-to-date' chorus and you have trouble with it. Their attitude is that you should find this easy and enjoyable, whether or not you do.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
This is perhaps another thread - but what you find 'easy to pick up' is conditioned by what you listen to a lot. Some worship leaders need to be told that not everyone has grown up listening to the same music!

Plus, I've noticed a difference between what men and women find easy to sing and to follow. Many men in the Redman/Delirious style don't sing exact notes, and the melody sort of dithers around several notes. In my church at least, men seem to find that easier to sing along with than women, who tend to sing exact notes.
 
Posted by ej (# 2259) on :
 
Gill H,

I couldn't agree more with you... In my experience it's the Hillsongs hysteria that keeps causing trouble... Worship leaders (why they insist on being called worship leaders when all they do is song leading is another issue I won't go into here!) trot off to the Hillsongs conference, get immersed in professionally performed music and come back and try to re-enact it with an untrained and/or unwilling congregation - with predictable results... And I'm sick of leaders who chastise a congregation (albeit jokingly) for not clapping/singing/jumping/crying like they do at *** or ###

So much of what is produced by the Hillsongs machine tends to lend itself to performance pieces (assumingly to assist in selling CDs [Devil] ) that it's impossible to get into as an average punter... Ignoring the triteness of the words..
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Contrast this with the way John Bell is able to introduce the Iona music (which often has deep meaning in the words, but simple melodies) and is able to get an average congregation singing unaccompanied in 3or 4 part harmony at one sitting!
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Bet he couldn't do it with ours.

We're not an average congregation. Not when it comes to singing at any rate.

Not only is the singing more out of tune thtn any other of the (I suppose 30-odd) churches I've attended more than once or twice, or the other 4 or 5 I've been a member of; it is an outlier - there is a gap in badness between us and the next worst.

I have no idea whay this is. Maybe God has a message for us. I wonder what it is?
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Bet he could. Very few people can't sing in tune. It's about motivation, and the fact that anyone who isn't of recording quality tends to get told they "can't sing" in our society. So they don't.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I'd like to see someone try it with our lot.

Actually I would, after all these years it is getting tedious.

Of course I can't sing myself - but I just belt it out now. Get some funny looks, but most people don't seem to notice or are too polite to stare [Smile]

Even the so-called choir are less skillful than the average person in other congregations I've been in.
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Ken, that sounds VERY Catholic (note upper-case) to me !!
 
Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Ken, that sounds VERY Catholic (note upper-case) to me !!

multipara and I recently sang at the Jubilee Mass for six Sisters of Mercy, under the resolute direction of Madame la Directrice.

Madame chose the Propers of the Mass, the motet "Ad Te Levavi" by Palestrina and the ordinary of the Mass the Missa "Orbis Factor" by de Victoria.

He was unable to prevail on the subject of the hymns and the Psalm. The hymns were "The Galilee Song" ("We draw our boats up to the shore") and the usual suspects "Here I am Lord" and "Micah's Theme" together with the "Suscipe of Blessed Catherine McAuley". The music for the last led Madame to transpose it up three tones into something approaching the usual female range and adding a descant, so that the sopranos actually had a chance of joining in.

The Order was thrilled and they all sang along lustily - so who am I to be a musical snob?
 
Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
The "Worship Music Lite", like some of the Hillsongs stuff - and much of the "pop" Christian music about now - Chuck Swindoll calls "7-11 music", after the 7-11 chain of convenience stores.

(You know, the kind of place where you get a couple gallons of gasoline for the car and a Coke for yourself. Then you leave quickly before the next robber comes in to stick the place up.)

Anyway, that's what I call them now, too, "7-11 songs". Seven words repeated eleven times.
 
Posted by Rhisiart (# 69) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider:
Bet he could. Very few people can't sing in tune. It's about motivation, and the fact that anyone who isn't of recording quality tends to get told they "can't sing" in our society. So they don't.

Not exactly in the tone of this thread, but I agree with KLS. I have terrible trouble getting my wife to sing, because she is convinced that she can't.

Last year at Greenbelt I went to a singing tutor session, where the tutor got a crowd of us singing three different songs in four-part harmony in about an hour. I came back thinking "if that's what she can do in an hour...". (The session made it into the Songs of Praise from Greenbelt as well)

I tend to sing in crowds of many thousands - rugby, see!
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
Horrible experience at church this morning. We sang "Over the mountains and the sea", which I happen to like in the right circumstances, but the worship team took it at the pace of a dirge. And for some reason the congregation was singing flat today. We're normally quite tuneful. BLEAHH!

There really is nothing worse than the local parish church worship team (2 guitars and an electronic keyboard, no bass, no drums and no-one under 40), trying to reproduce the effect of a stadium number from New Wine, Greenbelt or wherever.

the most painful example of this hazard that I've come across recently is - You are the sovereign, "I am". This song needs a BIG SOUND and should not be attempted by teh fainthearted.

Moving into confessional mode.......
There is one song that I know is supposed to be a total cringe, but I actually quite like it and that's the Lord's prayer sung to Auld Lang Syne a la Cliff Richard. We use it quite a lot at church

BK
 
Posted by OgtheDim (# 3200) on :
 
I love 4 part harmony. Too bad many of the choruses assume:

Our church sings great harmony when we use the hymnal, but the choruses are just a wash as far as harmony is concerned. I try, but most people who don't sing tenor or soparano mumble rather then sing.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Or else you get something like the Mission Praise hymnbook which has tried to turn choruses into hymns by adding an apology for harmonies arranged by someone called Fudge (appropriate! [Killing me] )
 
Posted by splendid (# 4123) on :
 
Its interesting whats being said about popping off to Hillsongs to learn how to 'do' worship - I'm currently doing a worship course at a church in brighton, led by a few more known worship leaders in the UK, when addressing the fact that thier church is 1000 strong and others (represented by those attending) maybe (most likely) are a lot smaller they make sure they emphasise that not everything will work in the smaller scale, yes God is the same but as you say its different when faced with 100 people to when faced with 1000, obviously the musical ability of the band makes a big difference, if the drummer can't keep a beat its not worth trying something like 'you are the sovereign I am' and if the guitarist can't keep to 6/8 its not worth trying 'All my days' or 'Before the throne of God above'
anyway the whole point of this post was to encourage you that the more public worship leaders that I have encountered do place a big emphasis on the fact that churches/worship bands/people are different and what works for one place won't always work in another...and its about learning how to adapt and work together...

I hope that makes sense and isn't too rambly! Oh and pls excuse the typos!
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
There really is nothing worse than the local parish church worship team (2 guitars and an electronic keyboard, no bass, no drums and no-one under 40), trying to reproduce the effect of a stadium number from New Wine, Greenbelt or wherever.

At least you have a worship band.

As far as I can tell I think I'm probably the most musically able member of our congregation - and I'm not joking [Help] As far as the men are concerned I'm almost the least bad singer [Projectile]

The less said about the Cliff matter the better. Some things are too horrid to contemplate. If you persist in liking the song I'll have to come over and sing at you [Snigger] [Snigger]
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken

As far as I can tell I think I'm probably the most musically able member of our congregation - and I'm not joking As far as the men are concerned I'm almost the least bad singer

Oh my, that's bad [Eek!]

quote:
The less said about the Cliff matter the better. Some things are too horrid to contemplate. If you persist in liking the song I'll have to come over and sing at you
The Cliff connection aside, what's so awful about the song? You can't fault the lyrics. And I've seen you belting out Auld Lang Syne at enough New Year parties to know that the tune doesn't repel you. I think it's anti-Cliff snobbery. When I was 12 it was compulsory to hold a similar attitude towards anything by Abba. When I was 16 you had to hate Chic. You're just trying to make me bow to peer pressure.

But please don't sing at me. [Razz]

BK
 
Posted by Royal Peculiar (# 3159) on :
 
Welcome Splendid! Do you play an instrument?
 
Posted by OgtheDim (# 3200) on :
 
Welcome Splendid

[gentle request]Splendid could you please use punctuation and such? My eyes bugged out reading your post and I've got 20/15 vision. It's tough to read your post which has much good to say. Thanks.[/gentle request]
 
Posted by ptarmigan (# 138) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
...
Open our eyes Lord
We want to see Jesus
To reach out and touch him
And say that we love him
Open our ears Lord
Help us to listen
Open our eyes Lord
We want to see Jesus
...

When I was at a church which sung this regularly, I always imagine a divine response along the following lines:

"Open your own bloody eyes you stupid wimp. Why on earth do you think I gave you eye muscles if I wanted you to sit back passively and ask me to open them. Take a bit of responsibility for your own spiritual life."
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Welcome aboard, Splendid (what a great name!), and thanks for your first post.

Could I add the usual hostly reminder to check the '10 Commandments' (from the blue band on the left) and to read the introduction to each board when you first go in to it .... though I'm sure you will have done this already!

Look around, enjoy yourself - and don't hestitate to ask questions if you don't understand.
 
Posted by splendid (# 4123) on :
 
Thanks for the warm welcome, I will endevour to make my posts a bit more readable!

I do play an instrument, well two actually, I play the guitar (very basically!) and I also sing (play my vocal chords??!!), I sing with the worship bands at church, but play my guitar more at home on my own. I occasionally lead worship, so I might use the guitar when thinking about what songs I'll use etc..

With regards to cheesey worship songs, there are so many I could mention, but one that got me recently (I think its been revived from the 70's [Help] ) is:

"from the rising of the sun
to the going down of the same
the Lord's name,
is to be praised"

then it goes on to 'praise ye the lord' or something, anyway there are some pretty terrible actions that go with it (at my church anyway)
Although to be fair we've only sung it once in the past 6 months and that was enough for the next 10 years I feel! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
ooh yes, that one is horrid. Welcome Splendid, hope you enjoy youself on the ship. You'll find that it is a very easy place to hang out even if, like me, RL is so very busy that you can only post on a fairly ad hoc basis.

Of course, context is all with children's songs. On one hand a song can be thoroughly charming, being lisped by a group of eager little ones all doing their best with the actions. On the other it can be an excrutiatingly embarrassing experience for the majority of the congregation - the elderly, teenagers, anyone with inhibitions about doing actions (ie most English people).

I've just remembered something that happened when my older son had his service of thanksgiving for his birth.

When the vicar came to talk me through the service, he also asked what songs or hymns I liked. In my naivety, I assumed he was just making conversation as that is how the question came across. And for some reason I said "Wide, wide is the ocean". Now I quite like this song in a quaint nostalgic sort of way. But it doesn';t hold any great significance for me and I can't think why i mentioned it at the time.

picture the scene. I'm standing up at the front of church cradling my firstborn son, having just prayed really important prayers for him and me. What happened next is that our vicar announces WWITO saying that this is the song that I'd specially chosen to mark the occasion. And we all had to sing it. And do the actions.

If the ground could have swallowed me up.........
 
Posted by Lady G (# 3746) on :
 
Personally, I dislike just about everything written by Graham Kendrick. There's something about some of the rhymes and the tunes that is akin to nails on a blackboard for me.
 
Posted by splendid (# 4123) on :
 
Grahame Kendrick can be a bit cringe worthy, I agree, but some of his stuff is amamzing - On the Bloodstained ground for example.

On this course (see previous post) I'm doing Grahame did a session on the content of our worship, and it was amazing - this guy is so deep and really encouraged us as worship leaders to get back to what worship is really about - giving glory to God for what HE has done, and for who HE is.

Although there is a place in worship to reflect on how we are feeling - the 'I' songs, we need to make sure the focus is on God and not on us.

This, in a nut shell is what Grahame and friends were talking about, and although it was a sleepy saturday afternoon I really learnt a lot from him.

So now, when a fellow worship leader anounces we're singing 'Jesus put this song into our hearts' I cringe less, because I know grahame is moving on and hopefully [Wink] will never write another song like this again!!!
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
You know, if my church would get its act together, I would never have to post on this thread again. Here I am, resurecting the dead after Easter, with more examples of poor hymnody and bad songwriting.

quote:
God sent his Son, they call Him Jesus
He came to love, heal and forgive
He lived and died to buy my pardon;
An empty grave is there to prove my Saviour lives

Because He lives I can face tomorow
Because He lives all fear is gone
Because I know He hold the future
And life is worth the living just because He lives

I shall stop here due to copyright laws. There are two things wrong with this hymn. First, someone got the bright idea that this should be our hymn of praise. I have no problem with replacing the hymn of praise (our ruberics allow for such), but it better be as good theologically and musically as the Gloria. There are very good hymns within our hymnal as replacements. But no, we had to get untrinitarian garbage from the Baptists (it could be the Pentecostals or non-denominationalists for all I care, a good Lutheran will still blame it on the Baptists), or, more specifically, the Gaithers. Yuck. Secondly, this stufff sounds like it comes out of a Baptist hymnal. Lutheran hymnody sounds like traditional Catholic hymnody. This song sounds like the organ needs to be played with vibratto galore. This is American spiritual; stuff that is just outside our tradition that, when brought in, sound weird and is distracting to everyone. We all look at each other and ask what the heck our pastors were thinking. [Confused]

Oh yes, "Open our eyes Lord" still replaced Peter's confession. You would think we would set the claptrap aside for Easter Sunday.

Our next selection is "To God Be the Glory". This is found in neither hymnal. We are using this as a communion hymn. For those who don't know, here is the first verse and chorus, keeping in mind copyright considerations.

quote:
To God be the glory
Great things He hath done,
So loved He the world
That he gave us his Son.
Who yielded His life
An attonement for sin
And opened the lifegate
That all may go in.

Praise the Lord, praise the Lord
Let the earth hear His voice!
Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord,
Let the people rejoice!
O come to the father
through Jesus the Son
And give Him the glory
Great things He hath done.

The meter is 3/4. It is being played on an organ. Um bah bah! Um bah bah! You could have played the Sonata Da Circo (Circus Sonata) by PDQ Bach and I wouldn't have known the difference. This is very distracting while trying to take communion. Add to it the wonderous songs "God is so Good" and "Alleluia", two more songs that try hard to say nothing, and you liturgy has sunk to a new low. Handel's "Halleluia Chorus" could not recessitate this musical-liturgical nightmare of an Easter service. I tried. I direct that handbell chior and, knowing my church's tendencies toward crappy music and cut up liturgy, I desperately fought the tide by choosing music that is within the bounds of Lutheran Hymnody. I have failed. I will make one last gasp with Beethoven's Ode to Joy (Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee). I am fighting a loosing cause. [brick wall]
 
Posted by splendid (# 4123) on :
 
Did any one else sing "He has risen" by Noel Richards on Easter Sunday?? Is there some un written law that says churches can only sing this song on Easter Sunday??

I don't actually like the song all that much...so the fact that we only sing it once a year doesn't bother me, what does bother me is that you can guarentee it will be sung on Easter sunday......

Surely there are other songs.....we could at least sing it every other year for a bit of variation!
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Perhaps you could put in a bid for "Christ the Lord is ris'n today" (Wesley) to the tune "Lyra Davidica". Easter just isn't Easter without that little beauty (unless you're Orthodox, of course!)

cheers,

m
 
Posted by splendid (# 4123) on :
 
Is that the one that goes 'halleluja etc etc' if it is, then we did that one too!
 
Posted by Punkijellybean (# 4390) on :
 
Please warn me (a novice) about such threads in future- I have laughed and sung my way through 8 pages of posts and been thoroughly rebuked by my teenage son, who disapproves of such parental frivolity. Such BAD behaviour-tut, tut. [Big Grin]
Nomination for weird song from 70's era is "So light up the fire, and let the flames burn": surely an arsonist's dream??!!
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Welcome aboard, Punkijellybean.

I would have thought that the Thread title might have been some form of warning!

May I in our usual hostly way draw your attention to the Ship's Ten Commandments (link in the blue bar on the left) and, if you haven't already done so, suggest that you read them?

Each Board has its own introduction as well.

Check the Boards out - they may have differing levels of appeal! - and contribute wherever you want.

As an apprentice on this great ship, you are given a virtual mop with which to swab the virtual decks - but 50 posts will gain you promotion to the rank of 'shipmate' when you can leave such chores to others! (I'm afraid though that your existing rank in the Army is not transferable [Big Grin] . The only officers here are the hosts, the administrators, and, of course, our glorious Captain, Simon Jenkins!) )
 
Posted by Alliebellie (# 4383) on :
 
quote:
Because He lives I can face tomorow
Because He lives all fear is gone
Because I know He hold the future
And life is worth the living just because He lives

I am most familiar with this being sung at funerals (the whole song not just this bit), and have always found it just a bit bizzare!

I've really enjoyed the graze I've had through this thread, yep.. I have some of those same cringeworthy-song memories, and soooo glad to find others who share them.

(btw... yep, TonyK, I've read all the guff!!!)

love this place!!!
AB
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alliebellie:

(btw... yep, TonyK, I've read all the guff!!!)

Glad to hear it, Alliebellie....

Nevertheless I would be neglecting my hostly duties if I didn't welcome you aboard as well!

We'll take the rest of my standard 'welcome' post as read then, shall we?

Have fun!
 
Posted by Alliebellie (# 4383) on :
 
Yes, I know it's not a naff hymn (at least I don't think so, but feel free to put me straight!), but I have never again been able to sing the hymn "And can it be" (Charles Wesley)with a straight face in the verse that goes
quote:
"....I woke, the dungeion flamed with light; My chains fell off, my heart was free;.....
ever since my friend leaned over one time we were in the middle of this verse and whispered "we call this the cyclist's lament"
 
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alliebellie:
Yes, I know it's not a naff hymn (at least I don't think so, but feel free to put me straight!), but I have never again been able to sing the hymn "And can it be" (Charles Wesley)with a straight face in the verse that goes
quote:
"....I woke, the dungeion flamed with light; My chains fell off, my heart was free;.....
ever since my friend leaned over one time we were in the middle of this verse and whispered "we call this the cyclist's lament"
Thanks a bunch, Alliebellie - it'll never be the same for me either! [Razz]
 
Posted by Punkijellybean (# 4390) on :
 
Many thanks, TonyK! I long for the day when ranks are long forgotten, and irrelevant (except on the Ship, of course, O worthy Shipmate). [Not worthy!]

Anyone know what the line "I tried the broken cisterns, Lord, but oh, the waters failed", is about? I kid you not. The hymn starts "O Christ in thee my soul have found....the peace, the joy", etc, etc. A good start, but downhill thereon after.
Seems like we now have cyclist hymns, and plumbers'anthems. Any other vocational specials??
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Newman's Own wrote:

"Now, with my favourite thread having stimulated some far away memories, I shall reveal a hymn I heard once - at a pentecostal service, where the lady who'd dragged me there had done so because she thought I 'had demons.' An attractive young couple, clearly from the States though I would know which part, sang a sort of 'folk rock' song, of which the following words remain in my memory. (No, I have not been drinking.)

The Lord Jesus, he done done,
The Lord Jesus, he done done,
The Lord Jesus, he done done,
He done done what He said He'd do.

The verses all were "He done (done whatever, it changed with each), he done done, etc." "

I laughed so much at this - I imagine the demons were similarly entertained - and at lots of other strands on this thread, especially about songs with actions. A few weeks ago in my Church the 'worship leader' did 'The Lord's Prayer' with actions. Unfortunately I missed this as I had to leave the service early; it might have made a half decent post. I know we have to appeal to children but....
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
How about this really cringeworthy children's song that I recall from the sixties:

Don't have a face like a coffeepot
Coffeepots are tall and thin
Got to have a face like a teapot
Other souls for Jesus win!

(complete with silly actions).

I mean what is that all about [Confused]
 
Posted by Allan6815 (# 4392) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:

All right, old timers, who remembers this 60s gem (for which the melody reminded me of some sort of old film about American Indians.)

We are one in the Spirit,
We are one in the Lord,
We are one in the Spirit,
We are one in the Lord,
And we pray that all unity shall one day be restored.

Refrain:
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
Yes, they'll know we are Christians by our love.

The 60's? I didn't encounter that until the late 80's!
 
Posted by diapason (# 4230) on :
 
Another vocational special: the Roofer's Hymn

Who through this weary pilgrimage / Has stole our father's lead...

I've always liked the plumber's hymn - the rest of that grotesque verse gives a few clues - "they" I take it refers to rest and happiness in the previous verse, but then again maybe not:

I tried the broken cisterns Lord,
But, ah, the waters failed:
Even as I stooped to drink they fled,
And mocked me as I wailed.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Does anyone remember a song, dreadful in itself, which was all the more annoying because there seemed to be a requirement that those performing it sing in high, squeaky voices, all tones 'through the nose'? (Come to think of it, that was standard for 99% of 1960s - 70s 'folk groups.')

I am not sure I remember the words correctly, but they were very close to:

Everyone moved by the Spirit,
Shall live in the kingdom of God,
Shall live in the kingdom of God.
 
Posted by CrossedTheTiber (# 4542) on :
 
I'm new and I know this thread is old, but I kept reading all of your posts and laughing my head off. I remember a "delightful" song from childhood that went...

"I've got the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart." (I thought of the post about the five "grows".)

But the most idiotic part was the second or third verse that says:

"So, if the devil doesn't like it he can sit on a tack."

What is THAT supposed to mean? I guess it relegates our Christian arsenal against pure evil, to sundries from the hardware store.
 
Posted by Caver (# 4392) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CrossedTheTiber:
I'm new and I know this thread is old, but I kept reading all of your posts and laughing my head off. I remember a "delightful" song from childhood that went...

"I've got the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart." (I thought of the post about the five "grows".)

In that case, welcome to SOF, although I'm afraid you are not likely to be noticed down here in Dead Horses.

Yes, I remember that one. Did you have somebody join in with "Where?" after you had sung the first line as well so you had to repeat it? Fortunately I think the consensus was that it was tacky enough without singing about tacks.

We have a song that I think even the music group has finally realised is better not sung if they want to escape church alive. It is a childrens song about waking up in the morning and being so excited to go to school that (in the chorus) they go 'boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing' ... etc. [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

Sorry I have no intention of giving this song the dignity of having its words reproduced. I should also add that it has an irritating tune that you can't get rid of for days after hearing it.
 
Posted by CrossedTheTiber (# 4542) on :
 
Yes, I just remembered, we did have a "Where" part!

Fortunately for me, I am not familiar with the "boing, boing, boing" song. :0)

As for not getting noticed down here in the "basement", that's suits me just fine. I'm new and just trying to take it all in.

BTW, I love your comment about changing your name due to it sounding like a part number. Very clever.
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Hello, Crossed TheTiber - and may I give you a hostly welcome to our Ship!

I'm sure you will already have read them, but can I just remind you about our 10 Commandments (link on the left) and the introduction to each board which sets the scene, as it were.

Poke around the Ship a bit, check out the other boards (which tend to be a bit more relevant than Dead Horses!)and have fun.

As an Apprentice you will, of course, expect to have the worst jobs to do - so expect to be given a virtual mop and bucket with which to clean the virtual decks [Wink] .

Once you have made 50 posts (only 48 to go) promotion to Sipmate follows, with all the additional (virtual) privileges.
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
...promotion to Sipmate follows...

For all your virtual sipping, check out the Gin thread in MW [Big Grin]

(Sorry Tony, I couldn't resist [Wink] )
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Bother!! And I used Preview Post and fixed two other typos too!

Can't get the staff any more [Wink]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I am laughing all the more on this page - and deeply grateful that providence did not place me anywhere that required I hear the 'boing song.' However, one element of my own life that made me sad all these years now (referencing the odd contribution above - I'd certainly never heard that song) now may have a shred of hope. I do have a face like a teapot...

Does anyone remember the following gem? Whoever sang this one tended to seem as if s/he were on drugs (and probably was, considering the era.) The tune was a bit eerie.

"The Spirit of God
Rests upon me.
The Spirit of God consecrates me.
The Spirit of God bids me go forth to proclaim his peace, his joy."
 
Posted by Caver (# 4392) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Caver:
It is a childrens song about waking up in the morning and being so excited to go to school that (in the chorus) they go 'boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing' ... etc. [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

Oh, I forgot to add. It has actions too. I'm sure you can guess, but when you are sat behind a group of older ladies who feel that they have to join in for their grandchildren and look as if they are in a mosh pit ... [Killing me]
 
Posted by zippity (# 4523) on :
 
Make a waaaaay through the desert
Make a waaay through the storm
Make a waaaay when there is no way
My God will make a way...

Unfortunately this always makes me think of bag-snatchers, as in, "He made away with my purse." And what does it really mean??
[Smile]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Here is a gem which I heard the first time on Pentecost - and sincerely hope to never hear again. It's title was "Enemy of Apathy," and it took me a moment to realise it dealt with the Holy Spirit.

She sits like a bird, brooding on the waters,
Hovering on the chaos of the world's first day;
She sighs and she sings, mothering creation,
Waiting to give birth to all the Word will say.
(This reminded me strongly of the Gnostic Sophia!)

She wings over earth, resting where she wishes,
Lighting close at hand or soaring through the skies,
She nests in the womb, welcoming each wonder,
Nourishing potential hidden in our eyes.

She dances in fire, startling her spectators,
Waking tongues of ecstasy where dumbness reigned.
She weans and inspires all whose hearts are open,
Nor can she be captured, silenced or restrained.

For she is the Spirit, one with God in essence,
Gifted by the saviour in eternal love,
She is the key, opening the scriptures,
Enemy of apathy and heavenly dove.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Here is a gem which I heard the first time on Pentecost - and sincerely hope to never hear again. It's title was "Enemy of Apathy," and it took me a moment to realise it dealt with the Holy Spirit.

She sits like a bird, ...

Interesting. At first I thought it was Gordon Light (et al - Common Cup Company) "She flies on", under a different title. But it's definitely not.

( She flies on may make an appearance somewhere in this thread. Personally I like it, but when the pacing is off, it's been known as "She drags on")
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
It reminds me of 'She flies like a bird
In the Sky-y-y-y-y'
Formerly a pop song, but evermore printed in my brain as a Nimble hot air balloon.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
I remember it well, Chorister..."...and I wish that she was mine......I can't let Maggie go'

Elizabeth...that's a cracker...what sort of congregation would sing a hymn/song like that???
 
Posted by Glenn Oldham (# 47) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Punkijellybean:

Anyone know what the line "I tried the broken cisterns, Lord, but oh, the waters failed", is about? I kid you not. The hymn starts "O Christ in thee my soul have found....the peace, the joy", etc, etc. A good start, but downhill thereon after.
Seems like we now have cyclist hymns, and plumbers'anthems. Any other vocational specials??

It is almost certainly a reference to Jeremiah 2:13 "for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water." These would be cisterns hewn from rock to hold water for drinking rather than toliet cisterns. So instead of a fountain of living water they would rather have still stagnant water in a cistern that rturns out to be broken anyway.

If I were a butterfly I'd thank you Lord by singing a chorus in which I would tell you that if I were a human being I'd thank you Lord by singing a chorus in which I would tell you that ... etc etc etc

Glenn
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Elizabeth...that's a cracker...what sort of congregation would sing a hymn/song like that???

I heard it at Saint Alban's, Margravine Road, Fulham (West London.)
 
Posted by eyeliner (# 4648) on :
 
Here's THE CLASSIC...

"I'm special because God has loved me
For He gave the best thing that He had to save me
His own son Jesus crucified to take the blame for all the bad things I have done
Thank You Jesus
Thank You Lord
For loving me so much
I know I don't deserve anything
Help me feel your love right now
To know deep in my heart
That I'm your special friend"

Jethuth ith my teddy bear!!!!!!!!!!!!

It starts off terrable and gets worse...
 
Posted by eyeliner (# 4648) on :
 
There's actually another song I want to put up...but I can't find my Songs of Fellowship and it's not in Mission Praise...watch this space...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Well just tell us how it starts and someone will dredge it up from the stygian depths of their mind.
 
Posted by Son of a preacherman (# 4181) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Maestro:
A seasonal one from the English Hymnal, not crappy - just hilarious.

Saint Joseph stood beside the cradle
and embraced the Holy Child,
Then he knelt upon the sod..........

Thank you so much! [Killing me] [Waterworks]
Laughing out loud in the office is such a giveaway!!

[ 07. July 2003, 14:21: Message edited by: Son of a preacherman ]
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
quote:

I lift you high
and bow down low
How high can You be?
How low can I go?

This a Matt Redman song.

I don't have a problem with the sentiments, is just the words are really trite. It's the "low/go" rhyme that's just too simple and obvious. And the effect is made worse with multiple repetitions...which you get if you use this as a chorus...
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
"How low can I go?".....this might be the theme song for the Jensen Bros!
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Reminds me of a church I know who had a middle of the road vicar followed by an Anglo-Catholic, followed by a charismatic! I used to sing the old song for them:

"So high, you can't get over it
So low, you can'at get under it" ...
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Though it is not a religious song per se, the quasi-religious elements (and misuse of the scripture quotations) in Paul Stookey's "Wedding Song" qualify it for inclusion here. It was not until this week, when a musician friend told me of requests for its use at weddings (I had hoped that long died out!), that I remembered the ghastly text.

As just one example: "The union of your spirit here has caused him to remain, for whenever two or more of you are gathered in his name, there is love..." We therefore have a bizarre picture of a God who has no existence of his own, but can be conjured - I suppose God can materialise, rather like a genie when one rubs the lamp, by people having sex.
 
Posted by shareman (# 2871) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Though it is not a religious song per se, the quasi-religious elements (and misuse of the scripture quotations) in Paul Stookey's "Wedding Song" qualify it for inclusion here. It was not until this week, when a musician friend told me of requests for its use at weddings (I had hoped that long died out!), that I remembered the ghastly text.

As just one example: "The union of your spirit here has caused him to remain, for whenever two or more of you are gathered in his name, there is love..." We therefore have a bizarre picture of a God who has no existence of his own, but can be conjured - I suppose God can materialise, rather like a genie when one rubs the lamp, by people having sex.

Horrid piece of drivel! No, sadly, the use of it hasn't gone out, at least not on the Western side of the pond. Very common among RCs here. Thank God all my friends are already married [Projectile]

How about:
"We Thank you God for Bodies Strong" from the Canadian joint Anglican/United Hymnal of the late 70s? Vile garbage from a generally vile book, and it included the line thanking God:
"and for this sacrament of sex that recreates our kind."
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Who remembers this one?

"Alleluia, I want to sing all about it,
Alleluia, I want to shout all about it,
Alleluia, I can't live without it, praise God,
Praise Go-o-o-o-D!
Now we're living in a new creation,
Now we're drinking at the well of salvation,
Now there is no condemnation,
Praise God, praise God, praise God."
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
I am new here but would love to share with you this treat from the old Baptist Hymn Book, as a warning against separating the subject by too many lines. 'I sing a song of the saints of God' is as you might expect about saints and trying to live up to them as good examples etc. but has as part of its second verse,

"and one was a soldier and one was a priest
and one was slain by a fierce wild beast
and there's not any reason, no not the least
why I shouldn't be one too".

Feel free to picture children in congregation deciding they'd rather not be fierce wild beasts, thanks very much.
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Welcome aboard, Boopy.

I'm sure you will already have read the Ship's 10 Commandments (link in blue panel on left) and will have noted the guidelines at the start of each Board.

Wander through the Boards and have fun!

Allow me to present you with your virtual mop and bucket, decks for the swabbing of! It's what all apprentices have to do!
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Newman's Own wrote:
quote:
Who remembers this one?

"Alleluia, I want to sing all about it,
Alleluia, I want to shout all about it,
Alleluia, I can't live without it, praise God,
Praise Go-o-o-o-D!
Now we're living in a new creation,
Now we're drinking at the well of salvation,
Now there is no condemnation,
Praise God, praise God, praise God."

No, but did it have a good tune? I could imagine that with a stonking gospel tune this might pass muster. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
One of the most unfortunate parts of posting on a board is that one can never do justice to how dreadful these songs were without including the horrid melodies. [Big Grin] I personally believe that, when the charismatic movement in mainline churches was popular (1970s), someone or other (with minimal musical gifts) was told to produce a hymnal full of original songs over the course of perhaps 2 days.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
'I sing a song of the saints of God' is as you might expect about saints and trying to live up to them as good examples etc. but has as part of its second verse,

"and one was a soldier and one was a priest
and one was slain by a fierce wild beast
and there's not any reason, no not the least
why I shouldn't be one too".

I remember that! Not sure where from, School I guess.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I remember there was one song, called something like 'give thanks with a grateful heart' which had the same tune as the Ambrosia creamed rice* advert. I could never sing that song with a straight face!


*which is made in these parts. Devon only knows how it tastes so good [Wink]
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
Give Thanks with a grateful heart
Give thanks to the holy one
Give thanks because He's given
Jesus Christ His Son (2x)

And now let the weak say, "I am strong"
Let the poor say "I am rich"
Because of what the Lord has done for us.(2x)
And now let the weak say, "I am strong"
Let the poor say "I am rich"
Becuse He's given Jesus Christ His Son.

Give Thanks with a grateful heart
Give thanks to the holy one
Give thanks because He's given
Jesus Christ His Son
Give thanks

The memories of High School Youth Group...
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The tune is that pop song "Go West" - Erasure or one of that crowd I seem to recall.

It was pinched by the advert, and inadvertently seems to resemble the tune of the chorus.

Well, the words were hardly worth making a new tune up for, were they?
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
Anyone recall those 70s/early 80s choruses with inept reference to God and bodily parts? There's that fave that begins

Pierce my ear, O Lord

(while-u-wait?)

and another whose first line is

Lord, you have put a tongue in my mouth..

[Projectile]

Could these be from Sounds of Living Waters? (known to me as Sounds of Slushy Puddles), remembered by many I'm sure. V popular in about 1980 youth groups.....oh those embarrassing memories.

Boopy
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Karl wrote (about the Ambrosia Rice tune):

quote:
The tune is that pop song "Go West" - Erasure or one of that crowd I seem to recall.

If my memory serves me, 'Go West' was orginally recorded by The Village People in the 80's and revamped by the Pet Shop Boys in the 90's. Don't know anything about the origins of the tune but am tickled pink to think someone used it for a hymn. [Killing me]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
Pierce my ear, O Lord

[...]

Could these be from Sounds of Living Waters?

Not in SLW. I've only seen it in "Songs of Fellowship".

The worst chorus of all time perhaps.

I've never heard it sung & don't want to.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
I am new here but would love to share with you this treat from the old Baptist Hymn Book, as a warning against separating the subject by too many lines. 'I sing a song of the saints of God' is as you might expect about saints and trying to live up to them as good examples etc. but has as part of its second verse,

"and one was a soldier and one was a priest
and one was slain by a fierce wild beast
and there's not any reason, no not the least
why I shouldn't be one too".

Feel free to picture children in congregation deciding they'd rather not be fierce wild beasts, thanks very much.

Welcome, Boopy! That song's in a Baptist hymnal? I'm amazed! It seems so... Anglican -- I guess that's my bias because the lyrics are British-English not US-English (e.g., "I mean to be one too"). I'm a cradle Episcopalian who grew up with this hymn and yes, the "fierce wild beast" line did make an impression on me as a child; I'm not aware of any other children's hymn that introduces the fact of martyrdom, however briefly. But -- the biggest impression the hymn had on me, and has to this day, is the final line: "But the saints of God are just folk like me, and I mean to be one too." As a little kid, saints can seem too distant, plastic, and perfect. This hymn stressed their humanity; and when, as an adult, I grew to understand the "communion of saints," this song's simple theology provided the foundation.
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
quote:
Welcome, Boopy! That song's in a Baptist hymnal? I'm amazed! It seems so... Anglican -- I guess that's my bias because the lyrics are British-English not US-English (e.g., "I mean to be one too").
Don't forget that we do have Baptists in England too!! Its not just the Anglican church over here.
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
Mmm....this one's definitely English Baptist which is a very different tradition from American Baptist.

I Sing a Song of the Saints of God is no 259 in the old Baptist Hymn Book (1962) - there's a more recent hymnal called Baptist Praise and Worship. It's early 20th Century and was written believe it or not by Lesbia Scott. There must be different versions of the words, though, as mine ends with 'For the saints of God began just like me, and I mean to be one too'. (Just after the bit about meeting saints 'in church or in trains or in shops or at tea'......!

Boopy
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
Mmm....this one's definitely English Baptist which is a very different tradition from American Baptist.

I Sing a Song of the Saints of God is no 259 in the old Baptist Hymn Book (1962) - there's a more recent hymnal called Baptist Praise and Worship. It's early 20th Century and was written believe it or not by Lesbia Scott.

I've just found it in my "Baptist Praise and Worship" (first published 1991).

quote:
And one was a doctor and one was a queen
and one was a shepherdess on the green:
they were all of them saints; and I mean
God helping, to be one too.

A quick trip to MW should show plenty in category 2, I think. [Wink]
 
Posted by Insomniac (# 4121) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
quote:

I lift you high
and bow down low
How high can You be?
How low can I go?

This a Matt Redman song.

I don't have a problem with the sentiments, is just the words are really trite. It's the "low/go" rhyme that's just too simple and obvious. And the effect is made worse with multiple repetitions...which you get if you use this as a chorus...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who cringes at this one - although personally I find the fact that I am the one deciding Jesus' status a bit difficult (If I lift you high...it will ultimately make little difference to the fact that you are God Almighty the Creator of all things and I couldn't 'lift' you a fraction of a millimetre even if I wanted to)
 
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :
 
We sang a song at church this Sunday where the second verse began

"I'm going to zoom, zoom, zoom
Around the room, room, room"

Thankfully I was playing the flute, and so I didn't actually have to read any more of the lyrics, and I guess the kids enjoyed pretending to be aeroplanes, but still....

All the best,

Rachel.

[ 21. July 2003, 11:53: Message edited by: the famous rachel ]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Welcome, Boopy, and thank you for the marvellous laugh you gave me!

Adding to the 'dreadful' category, there was one very tedious hymn which a friend of mine who was an organist (educated at Oxford, no less) used to constantly use for Communion at funerals. I don't know its origin. The melody dragged and was very monotonous. I cannot recall all of the words, but, as I recall, they were something like this. (As with the hymn Boopy quoted, I don't profess to understand it!):

Refrain:
Come and drink from the fountain of my life
Says the Lord.
And my gift shall become a spring
Of eternal life.

Verses:
Water I place in the wilderness
And rivers in the wild
For my chosen to drink and to praise me
I, their Lord.

Sinners shall hunger and thirst
But my servants shall have their fill
They shall sing for joy of heart
To their God.

The chosen, a marching hero,
Shall stride forth in victory
In the streams of the fullness of Yahweh
(cannot remember the rest.)

The same organist friend liked another hymn that was another drag:

Refrain:
You satisfy the hungry heart,
With gifts of finest wheat,
Come, give to us, O Saving Lord.
The bread of life to eat.

As when the shepherd calls his sheep,
They know and heed his voice,
So when you call your family, Lord,
We follow and rejoice.

With joyful lips, we sing to you
Our praise and gratitude,
That you should count us worthy, Lord,
To share this heavenly food.

Is not the cup we bless and share
The blood of Christ outpoured?
Do not one cup, one loaf declare
Our oneness in the Lord?

I may as well end my little tribute to my friend (who, sadly, died a few years ago at 50) with a quasi folk melody he used to have his boy choir sing - I hated this one most of all.

The Lord Jesus
After eating with his friends
Washed their feet and said to them
Do you know what I your Lord have done for you?
I have given you example
That so you also should do.

[ 21. July 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: Newman's Own ]
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
I will make one last gasp with Beethoven's Ode to Joy (Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee). I am fighting a loosing cause. [brick wall]

There is a hymn I have sung a couple of times to the tune of "Ode To Joy". The words go something like "Praise the Lord for times and seasons, cloud and sunshine, sun and rain" and continue on in a similarly banal way for four verses. Moreover, in each verse the first two lines are repeated as the last two lines. What, did you run out of ideas for things to praise God for? Or were you just really determined to use Ode to Joy?

Moreover, Ode to Joy is actually not that good to sing a hymn to. The theme is (dare I say it) dull, and Beethoven's 9th is good because of all the exciting stuff he does with it in the variations. Which, of course, in a hymn in verse format, you don't get to do. So you get four repeats of this dull tune, with worse words. Hmm... Maybe I should just strike up with the soprano part from the soloists variation sometime and see what happens?

The worst of it is that if you take out the repetition of the first two lines, you can sing it to any number of decent tunes.
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
If you think singing along to Ode to Joy is bad (and I agree, because it's also the tune for Take Me to the Emerald City, from The Wizard of Oz, so I can never sing a hymn to that tune with a straight face!), try singing a hymn to the tune of The Carnival is Over. Can't track it down just yet but I promise you that there's one to this tune in Baptist Praise and Worship. Uuurrgh.

Boopy
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Newman posted this ditty.

The Lord Jesus
After eating with his friends
Washed their feet and said to them
Do you know what I your Lord have done for you?
I have given you example
That so you also should do.


Hee hee, I know this one. I sang along with this at my nephew's confimation the other week in the R.C church my sister and her husband belong to. All the children sang along very nicely.
[Big Grin] Oh, oh, now I can't the darn tune out of my head!
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
If you think singing along to Ode to Joy is bad (and I agree, because it's also the tune for Take Me to the Emerald City, from The Wizard of Oz, so I can never sing a hymn to that tune with a straight face!), try singing a hymn to the tune of The Carnival is Over. Can't track it down just yet but I promise you that there's one to this tune in Baptist Praise and Worship. Uuurrgh.

Boopy

I've sung 'What a friend we have in Jesus' to the tune of 'Now the Carnival in over' before.

Now did anyone mention the kids songs to the tune of 'Match of the Day' and 'The Flintstones'

There used to be a website of 'Re-versed Christian Lyrics' with Christian words set to various popular tunes, but it has been taken down.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Glorious things of thee are spoken is often sung to the tune of The Carnival is Over.

Presumably as a side-effect of the Great War.

It works quite well.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Now that I have that dreadful "after eating with his friends" tune in my head, yet another came to mind - in the 'religious lyrics set to popular tunes' category. I only heard this in one church (the curate loved it), so I have no idea who composed the religious lyrics. It was to the tune of 'Edwelweiss' from the 'Sound of Music' (one of my least favourite shows.)

We are all joined in Christ,
Called by God to be with Him.
Joined in Christ, and through Christ
Praise our Father forever.
Honour and glory we give to Him,
Give to Him forever.
Joined with Christ, and through Christ,
Praise our Father forever.

During the days when I was involved with ministry to students at a university, some of the more creative (sigh!) nuns would take a folk (meaning 1950s-1960s, not sixteenth century or earlier!) or rock tune, preferably a popular one, and compose her own words. (That probably is highly illegal.) I vaguely remember such a setting for Bob Dylan's 'Blowing in the Wind.' It was along the lines of, "How many times must their blood be shed, before they know that it's mine? The answer my friend, is in the hearts of men, the answer is living in all men."

To my amazement, a few months ago I heard some young people singing "Blowing in the Wind" (original words) as part of some evangelisation effort (in front of the SPCK bookstore, though I doubt connected with them), very near Canterbury Cathedral. It sounded just as awful as it did 35 years ago - breathy and 'through the nose.'
 
Posted by testbear (# 4602) on :
 
I'm on the team for the kids' holiday club at a church down the road from me, and one of my areas of speciality is playing the guitar for the singing. We have a song - not one of my choices, I can assure you - which goes like so:

I am the apple of God's eye,
His banana over me is love.
He oranges his angels to protect me,
as his blessings plum-met from above.

I won't ever play the gooseberry,
a face like a lemon, no, not me,
for wherever this man-goes,
a raspberry it never blows...

The great fruit of God,
The great fruit of God,
The great fruit of God, it overflows,
The great fruit of God,
The great fruit of God,
The great fruit of God, it overflows...

I will praise him on the tangerine
I will praise him on the mandarin
Satsuma or later, you will see,
there's always clementine for praising him...

The great fruit of God...etc


There are somethings that are simply inexcusable.
 
Posted by Flying_Belgian (# 3385) on :
 
A friend of mine told me that she took a non-Christian friend along to church and the first him was the lamentable "The Feast is ready to begin", which prompted the said friend to fall about laughing.

After the service, the friend then downloaded a collection of cheesy Christian songs onto his computer, to play and laugh at whenever he felt like it.

I advocate jail sentences for churches who play such vapid songs.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Testbear wrote:

[Killing me]

I wonder if God ever regrets bestowing some modern day Christian lyric writers with a free will?

quote:

I am the apple of God's eye,
His banana over me is love.
He oranges his angels to protect me,
as his blessings plum-met from above.


I mean I know it's for kids...but...actually this makes 'The Lord Jesus after eating with his friends@ (see Newan's Own contribution above) seem like a masterwork!

I get so frustrated when the 'lallies' (my pet name for them) at my church, challenge my dislike of the modern worhip songs and suggest that in voicing my views I reveal a lack of love for my brothers in sisters in Christ. This is usually followed by an attempt to pigeonhole me as 'a traditionalist '. It's hardly conservative to recognise that most modern worship songs (well the ones I'ver been subjected to), and the music (or should that be muzak) that accompanies them, are totally lacking in passion, soul, beauty and style.

Belgium 'Vapid'is justperfect. [Not worthy!]

Is there no soloution???

J
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Ooops,
TestBear didn't write:
quote:
I wonder if God ever regrets bestowing some modern day Christian lyric writers with a free will?

That was my own comment. They did supply the fruit lyric that inspired this characteristic burst of petty mindedness from me though. [Wink]

J
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
May I cast a vote here for the bizarre, quasi folk renditions of the Lord's Prayer which appeared through the years? [Roll Eyes]

The full dreadfulness of this one would not be possible to comprehend without hearing the horrid melody, but this was definitely a 'sway, look happy, clap' version I recall from 30 years ago.

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done,
Hallowed be thy name.

The final verse was,
Amen, amen, amen, amen,
hallowed be thy name.

It just occurred to me, looking this over, that the words alone cannot give anyone the idea of the very weird melody... but perhaps it can strike a memory for some shipmates...

As for terrible theology, I can recall when, in some circles (religious communities liked this one for the offertory at Mass on profession day!), the 'gem,' "All that I Am" was popular.

All that I am,
All that I do,
All that I'll ever have
I offer now to you.

All that I dream,
All that I pray,
All that I'll ever make
I give to you today.

So far, that does not sound too bad, but note the following!:

Take and sanctify these gifts
For your honour, Lord,
Knowing that I love and serve you
Is enough reward.

We therefore are left with a very strange picture of an offertory that is of one's own dreams and prayers, and reassurance to God that he does not need to pay the fees for our contributing how marvellous we are. (Didn't the gifts come from Him in the first place? [Confused] )
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
May I cast a vote here for the bizarre, quasi folk renditions of the Lord's Prayer which appeared through the years? [Roll Eyes]

The full dreadfulness of this one would not be possible to comprehend without hearing the horrid melody, but this was definitely a 'sway, look happy, clap' version I recall from 30 years ago.

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done,
Hallowed be thy name.

Ouch. I don't have to go back 30 years to remember this; we used it at our Sunday evening "Folk Mass", which only gave up the ghost two or three years ago (ostensibly because no one could be found to provide musical accompaniment).

Happily, Sunday Evensong and Benediction (with plainsong psalms and canticles at the former) continue unchecked.

Robin
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
That sing-along version of the Lord's prayer reminds me of a poem I used to like at primary School. The poem ended.

"Amen, amen, amen, amen.
Timothy Winters, Lord. Amen!"

And for that reason I rather enjoy it.
 
Posted by Zeke (# 3271) on :
 
My husband's parish sings almost everything. When they do the Nicene Creed, a cantor sings the pertinent bits and then everybody responds "We believe, we believe, O Lord, we believe." Then some more of the creed and another "We believe," and so on. You get into a kind of repetitive trance by the end of it (it lasts a very long time).
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
That sing-along version of the Lord's prayer reminds me of a poem I used to like at primary School. The poem ended.

"Amen, amen, amen, amen.
Timothy Winters, Lord. Amen!"

And for that reason I rather enjoy it.

Is this,

Timothy Winters goes to school
With eyes as big as a football pool......

(still much used in primary schools).


This thread is also bringing back memories of my own Folk Mass days (whisper it, I used to be a Folk Guitarist in my teenage years). How well I recall that sing-along Lord's Prayer. The first line of it sounds like the first line of the folk song Barbara Allen, and IIRC, 'hallowed' was sung all on one note but with three syllables.
I used to like it in those days.... [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Booby,
yes it is the same poem. It began something like this:

'Timothy Winters go to school
(with?) eyes as wide as the football pools
with teeth like bombs and hair like splinters;
a blitz of a boy is Timothy Winters.'

I can't recall the writer's name but i think he wrote lots of poems for kids, some, like this, with social themes. I think the reference to the 'amen' may be ironic, as the school does little to help Timothy (and by implication disadvantaged boys like him) to thrive. Yet Timothy is innocently oblivious to this, joining in his prayers with gusto. Nice to hear schools still use this. I imagine it's set in the early 50's - hence the reference to bomb sites (excellent imagery, I can just see the gaps in his teeth and his unbrushed hair.)

If it's not too much of a tangent, does anyone know the name of the poet?

[The host was happy to remove the half-post that preceded this one, as requested.]

[ 01. August 2003, 12:09: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I don't believe I've ever heard the Nicene Creed sung in that fashion, but do recall (and not so long ago) hearing a rather dreadful setting of "Glory to God in the Highest," with a horrid melody and constant repetition of 'give glory to God in the highest.'

Here is another gem which I recall from the 1960s. Unfortunately, since it was the bizarre tune that gave it truly 'horrid' status, the words alone cannot capture the flavour.

God the Father, hear our prayer,
Hear us, God the Son,
Holy Spirit, hear our prayer.
Mercy to the people, Lord.

One elderly priest I knew (he'd be about 100 were he alive today) was a brilliant classical scholar, but had no aesthetic sense in the least. He very much liked a dreadful "Sanctus," which I think was intended for little children to sing, because the congregation would take the parts alternately, and Father saw this as similar to crowds proclaiming Jesus as Son of David on the first Palm Sunday. Again, one would need to know the tune to realise how terrible it was.

Holy, Holy, Holy,
Holy, holy, holy ,
Lord God Almighty,
Lord God Almighty,
Heaven, heaven and earth.
Heaven, heaven and earth.
Are full of your glory.
Are full of your glory,

Sing Hosanna,
Sing Hosanna,
Sing Hosanna,
Sing Hosanna,
Sing Hosanna.
Sing Hosanna,
Sing Alleluia,
Sing Alleluia.
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
Crappy choruses and horrible hymns -- how about an awful anthem? I have to sing on Sunday a thing with words by Isaac Watts and music by someone called Ernest Bullock. I suppose the words aren't so bad, though there's really not much in them:

quote:

Give us the wings of faith to rise
Within the veil, and see
The saints above, how great their joys,
How bright their glories be.

We ask them whence their victory came,
They, with one united breath,
Ascribe the conquest to the Lamb,
Their triumph to his death.

They marked the footsteps that he trod,
His zeal inspired their breast,
And, following their incarnate God,
They reached their promised rest.

Not so bad really, though if I were given the ability to look beyond the veil, I would rather see God than the saints. But what really bugs me is the tune. Bullock had a couple of good ideas, and couldn't be bothered to find a way of making a transistion between them, so he stuck them next to each other -- resulting in practically unsingable, and frankly rather ugly, changes of key. In addition, the vocal harmonies appear to consist mainly of parallel fifths and octaves, as if he couldn't be bothered working out four separate parts. What isn't parallel is horribly dissonant -- especially on "with one united breath", which I would have thought would be the last place you'd want a dissonance.

I'm unsure how our rather mediocre at best choir is going to be able to manage this, as the music is rather incomprehensible: in addition to the aforementioned key changes, there are some pretty horrible intervals to get, entries on a note unrelated to the organ chord (or chords immediately previous), and lines which appear to be a series of unrelated notes. Maybe someone could find me a recording of it done by an expert choir and I might change my mind, but at the moment I think it's the worst thing I've found in a while.
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Booby,
yes it is the same poem. It began something like this:

'Timothy Winters go to school
(with?) eyes as wide as the football pools
with teeth like bombs and hair like splinters;
a blitz of a boy is Timothy Winters.'

I can't recall the writer's name....if it's not too much of a tangent, does anyone know the name of the poet?


It's by Charles Causley, and first appeared in a collection called Union Street in 1957. Here's the correct first verse (what a wonder is Google!)

Timothy Winters comes to school
With eyes as wide as a football-pool
Ears like bombs and teeth like splinters
A blitz of a boy is Timothy Winters.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Thanks very much Booby [Smile]

Guess my memory doesn't serve me well at all! [Embarrassed]

Back to crappy choruses. Newman's Sanctus reminds me of another ditty that, bizzarely, seems to work as instant therapy in the everyday battle of life. The song is 'Give me oil in my lamp (keep me burning)', beloved of primary schools and our worship music group. It has a chorus which goes:

"Sing Hosanna, Sing Hosanna, Sing Hosanna to the King of Kings."

The tune is pretty appalling but strangely, I often find myself humming part of the first verse:

"Give me oil in my lamp keep me burning
give me oil im my lamp I pray.."

when I feel like gunning down members of the senior management team at my place of work. And bingo, patience and good will are often restored. It would seem decent music isn't necessary when one is need of the fruits of the spirit.
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
I remember "Give me oil in my lamp" Dorothea, we sang that at primary school all the time.

Today's classic came when I was visiting a local Baptist church. When the words went up on the OHP I didn't recognise it, I just thought "Oh no, not another cheesy chorus" (or words to that effect). As soon as the musicians started though it all came flooding back, a song I'd not sung for years:

Don't build your house on the sandy land
Don't build it too near the shore
Cos it might look kinda nice, but you'll have to build it twice
And you'll have to build your house once more.

You gotta build your house upon the rock
With a firm foundation on a solid spot
Well the storms may come and go
But the peace of God you will know.

The congregation is split into two with one half singing the first bit whilst the other half sings the second bit, then the two halves swap over until everyone gets fed up.

Does anybody have a cure for removing these irritating songs from going round and round your head? I'd successfully buried this one for years, but now it's returned and is driving me crazy, I'll be humming it for weeks probably [Disappointed]
 
Posted by Zeke (# 3271) on :
 
Is the song about Timothy Winters a religious song? I'm confused. [Confused]
 
Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :
 
On Saturday I went to the 25th Jubilee as a religious sister of my daughter's godmother, who is a wonderful woman dedicated to serving the poor (she's a Yale-educated lawyer who helps people in the Bronx who are being evicted). The celebration was, of course, a great event, but the opening song stood out for its horribleness and crappiness. I'd like to quote the whole thing, but for fear of copyright infringement, I'll just quote the most horrible and crappy verse:

quote:
Those without status, those who are nothing,
you have made royal, gifted with rights,
chosen as partners, midwives of justice,
birthing new systems, lighting new lights.

I suspect that this song was chosen by one of the other sisters who was celebrating her Jubilee at the Mass, since anyone who has really worked for justice would find this PC gobbledygook risible.

I particularly like the imagery of "birthing new systems," which to my mind conjured images of women pushing stereo components out of the place where babies usually come (OK, I'll admit I have a sick imagination).

FCB
 
Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
Oriel,

Re the Bullock "Give us the wings of faith" - we always used to use it for the audition piece to test potential Organ Scholars in their choir directing abilities when I was at Uni. It got a bit dull when you were onto the third or fourth audition (and repeated it every couple of years or so).
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeke:
Is the song about Timothy Winters a religious song? I'm confused. [Confused]

It's a poem, not a song, and a tangent really; only in this thread at all because it ends with 'Amen Amen'and another poster was reminded of it via a similarity with a chorus mentioned further up the thread, and wanted to trace it.

However, many not ostensibly religious poems may be so if you choose to read them that way; that decision often lies with the reader.

Boopy;)
 
Posted by bobblehead (# 4132) on :
 
Jack the Lass,
A former choirmaster of mine told us that in order to get a tune out of your head you should sing a verse of

"Diamonds are a girl's best friend."

Yes, it works!
 
Posted by diapason (# 4230) on :
 
I'm surprised no-one's posted that Iona Community gem, 'The Word of Life', sung to 'Wild Mountain Thyme'. The verse that stops me in my tracks runs:

In a garden, just at dawn,
near the grave of human violence,
The most precious Word of Life
cleared his throat and ended silence,
For the good of us all.

Apart from the dubious rhyme, can anyone tell me where the account of the Resurrection Cough came from? And should we now be coughing liturgically?

An earlier verse has a more interesting rhyme still:

Quiet was Gethsemane,
camouflaging priest and soldier;
The most precious Word of Life
took the world's weight on his shoulder,
For the good of us all.

Eek.
 
Posted by Dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was "Ahem"? [Confused]
 
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Earlier in the thread there were some references to hymns sung to the tune of "The Carnival is Over". This was originally a Russian hymn tune I believe.

Huia
 
Posted by kowalski37 (# 4886) on :
 
What about the one 'Bind us together Lord', where everyone links arms together and sways along...

Speaking of 'Give me oil in my lamp', has anyone else heard the version that the Byrds did? Very good. I like to sing that one instead of the traditional one...
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
You know, as bad as some of the modern stuff is, it all has its roots it American sentimentality and the nauseating hymns that came with it. For instance:

I am weak, but Thou art strong;
Jesus, keep me from all wrong;
I’ll be satisfied as long
As I walk, let me walk close to Thee.

Refrain

Just a closer walk with Thee,
Grant it, Jesus, is my plea,
Daily walking close to Thee,
Let it be, dear Lord, let it be.


Through this world of toil and snares,
If I falter, Lord, who cares?
Who with me my burden shares?
None but Thee, dear Lord, none but Thee.

Refrain

When my feeble life is o’er,
Time for me will be no more;
Guide me gently, safely o’er
To Thy kingdom shore, to Thy shore.

Refrain

Just thinking about this song makes me want to hurl. [Projectile]
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
I finally admitted my Ship addiction this morning in church, when my first thought on reading the words to the beautiful song I'm about to share with you was not of our Lord, but of this very thread. This is a new song for me, but maybe some of you are already familiar with it:

Prayer is like a telephone for us to talk to Jesus.
Prayer is like a telephone for us to talk to God.
Prayer is like a telephone for us to talk to Jesus.
Pick it up and use it every day.

We can shout out loud,
we can whisper softly,
we can use no words at all,
but he'll always hear our call.

[That's the whole song (I think) so for copyright purposes I'd better add Paul Crouch & David Mudie © 1991 Daybreak Music Ltd. Hope that suffices.]

I was going to say "They don't write them like that any more"... but I've got an awful feeling there are plenty of songwriters out there just itching to prove me wrong.
 
Posted by ce (# 1957) on :
 
You've quite ruined my Sunday afternoon.

Did you stray into sunday school by mistake (it would still be unforgivable but vaguely understandable) or was this farrago actually perpetrated on a congregation?

Pedant mode on
But prayer can’t be “like a telephone” – if it was, God and Jesus wouldn’t hear you if you “use no words at all” – you’d need to say something like “Prayer is a bit like a telephone” and “unlike a real telephone we can………”. It couldn’t possibly make it any worse
Pedant mode off


Come back "Jesus loves me for a sunbeam".

ce
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ce:
You've quite ruined my Sunday afternoon.

What do you think it did to my Sunday morning?

quote:
Originally posted by ce:
Did you stray into sunday school by mistake (it would still be unforgivable but vaguely understandable) or was this farrago actually perpetrated on a congregation?

No, it was the whole jolly lot of us [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by ce:
Pedant mode on
But prayer can’t be “like a telephone” – if it was, God and Jesus wouldn’t hear you if you “use no words at all” – you’d need to say something like “Prayer is a bit like a telephone” and “unlike a real telephone we can………”. It couldn’t possibly make it any worse
Pedant mode off

My thoughts exactly. At the end of every line I wanted to shout "No, no, no!" but then I realised that was the wrong song [Big Grin]

[ 07. September 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]
 
Posted by Tom Day (# 3630) on :
 
Haven't sung this for years. Makes me remember the old holiday clubs we used to run... The kids l;oved it as you had some great actions

Thanks Jack [Smile] I'll now be singing it all evening

Tom wanders of whistling to himself...
 
Posted by Fr. Gregory (# 310) on :
 
I don't know if it's been quoted yet ... but what about a classic from Yusuf Islam?

"Morning has broken ..."

.... well bloody fix it then! [Mad] [Mad] [Mad]
 
Posted by Hinematov (# 4766) on :
 
There's one in our fellowship songbook that I suppose is OK, except that it's to the tune of
O Sole Mio When somebody requests this one, I just close the songbook and sit it out. Because I can't help imagining some hokey PBS special with Luciano Pavorotti walking down a cobblestone street in Naples, belting out, "Oh, how I looooove Him! How I adore Him!" while the mandolins play in the background. By the second verse, he's reached the dock and is singing to the piscatori as they mend their nets.

Worse yet, Elvis did a song, It's Now or Never to the same tune. So soon it's Luciano AND The King, there on the dock in Naples, singing. Luciano is wearing black, of course. Elvis is in his white bell-bottomed jumpsuit.
It just gets weirder and weirder, until Luciano wails out the last line, hot-dogging the high notes, of course.

And then it's over.

Amen.

Long post, but it's just me down here, right?
 
Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinematov:
There's one in our fellowship songbook that I suppose is OK, except that it's to the tune of O Sole Mio.

Very funny story. BTW, the Titans are playing tonight, so there's still life in Tennessee.
 
Posted by Hinematov (# 4766) on :
 
I'm glad I could share that with you, because I don't want to mention it to the folks I meet with, lest I render them unable to sing it too.

But, if I look around while this song is being sung, I see a few people hiding their faces behind their songbooks and their shoulders do appear to be shaking in a happy way.
 
Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Good. We should be happy in church -- even if it's inspired by Elvis and Luciano.
 
Posted by Huntress (# 2595) on :
 
Verse 1:
Jesus said to his disciples
Wash those weary toes!
Do it in a cheerful fashion,
never hold your nose!'

Chorus:
The world is full of smelly feet
Weary from the dusty street
The world is full of smelly feet
We'll was them for each other.

A gem from Michael Forster, printed in 'The Catholic Supplement to "Hymns, Songs and Chants"'.

[ 08. September 2003, 13:19: Message edited by: Huntress ]
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
I don't know if it's been quoted yet ... but what about a classic from Yusuf Islam?

"Morning has broken ..."

.... well bloody fix it then!

That thought inspired me as a child to these words:
'Morning has broken
We'd better mend it!
Get out the Bostik*'
And Sellotape
Fix it together
Don't mind the weather
It's got to be ready
For the next day!'

(I hated the actual words, since as a 10 year-old would be palaeontologist I knew that a blackbird would sound nowt like Archaeopteryx, and that there was NO grass around when the 'first dewfall' occurred.
What a little pedant I was (and probably still am!)).

*'Bostik' is a type of glue in the UK.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
kowalaski wrote:

quote:
Speaking of 'Give me oil in my lamp', has anyone else heard the version that the Byrds did? Very good. I like to sing that one instead of the traditional one...
Now that I would like to hear [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Try (# 4951) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joyeux:
What gets me is that quite a few of the older hymns have great biblical lyrics that explore the implications of living a Christian life, and the character of God, etc., etc, but the melodies are soooo bad (read: non-existant) that they aren't done any more. I'm all for people with musical ability in composition taking those lyrics and resetting them. Nothing comes to mind right now, but I know that I've sung my share of them!

You know, my old Methodist YA Fellowship did just that- taking movingly phrased but boringly set lyrics and creating new melodies for them, on a guitar trio. Better then any praise songs in existence.
 
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Dear Try,

Welcome to the Ship of Fools. Please check out the Ship's 10 Commandments (located in a link to the left of the screen) - adherence to these rules will ease your path here. Also do remember that each board has it's own guidelines and intro paragraph - these will help you get a feel of the atmosphere and tone of the board.

Finally, happy posting!

Sarkycow, Dead Horses host
 
Posted by Laudate Dominum (# 3104) on :
 
We’ve sung a Gloria in my parish for two or three years now which is perfectly dreadful. The chorus words, “Gloria, Gloria in excelsis Deo” are not too terrible, but the verses have mangled the official translation of this prayer. Incidentally, the Gloria was originally a chant hymn, which by definition does not have a verse-refrain structure. Just one verse after another. So, it shouldn’t have a refrain at all.
Also, the melody is horrible and rock-influenced. In fact, when it is played fast enough, it actually tempts some of the more simpleminded in the congregation to start clapping. As in, somewhat in time to the music. This is a Roman Catholic church! We don’t do that! What happened to dignity? Ok, I should stop now…
 
Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on :
 
quote:
You know, as bad as some of the modern stuff is, it all has its roots it American sentimentality and the nauseating hymns that came with it.
Actually, I think "Victorian" is a more suitable adjective than "American." That age produced a tidal wave of sentimental bilge on both sides of the Atlantic.

Last weekend I visited the church where I was confirmed. The program included "Blessed Assurance," not in the Lutheran Book of Worship but in the dreck-heavy With One Voice (which was supposed to be a supplement, I think, but which some churches apparently regard as a replacement). [Projectile] [Projectile]
There we have it--a "spiritual" ancestor of unsingable twentieth-century hymns ("Be Not Afraid" comes to mind). Sentimental, straining for those high notes like a third-rate folk-singer, and worst of all, capable of inserting a mindworm that plays ceaselessly all the next day. [Mad]
 
Posted by richt (# 4679) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:


As for terrible theology, I can recall when, in some circles (religious communities liked this one for the offertory at Mass on profession day!), the 'gem,' "All that I Am" was popular.

All that I am,
All that I do,
All that I'll ever have
I offer now to you.

All that I dream,
All that I pray,
All that I'll ever make
I give to you today.

So far, that does not sound too bad, but note the following!:

Take and sanctify these gifts
For your honour, Lord,
Knowing that I love and serve you
Is enough reward.

We therefore are left with a very strange picture of an offertory that is of one's own dreams and prayers, and reassurance to God that he does not need to pay the fees for our contributing how marvellous we are. (Didn't the gifts come from Him in the first place? [Confused] )

I'm going to have to try and make a defence of this one, as I am quite fond of it. Here goes:

I think that the implied meaning is that God has given us all these wonderful gifts, and we are attempting to return the favour in our own limited way, by using these gifts to serve him. And that we don't want nor expect earthly rewards for serving God - that the joy of serving him is all we want (plus we wouldn't mind joining him in Heaven when the time comes [Wink] )


To make up for this terrible defence of that hymn I'll offer up one of the hymns which really annoys me. "Daily, Daily sing to Mary". After ages of persuading a friend that RCs don't worship Mary, I take them along to Mass and what crops up? 4 verses of going on about how wonderful Mary is. Unlike most other hymns concerning Mary and the Saints, it fails to place the adoration in context, making it sound (at least to the lay observer) as if we are worshiping Mary. [Mad]
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
The "lay " observer???!!!!

Don't you mean the "non-Catholic" observer?
I've heard of the priesthood of believers, but this is ridiculous!

m (always a Roman but never a Mariolatrist)
 
Posted by richt (# 4679) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
The "lay " observer???!!!!

Don't you mean the "non-Catholic" observer?
I've heard of the priesthood of believers, but this is ridiculous!

m (always a Roman but never a Mariolatrist)

You're right of course. Apologies for my very sloppy writing style - never been one for precise definitions of words [Smile] .
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Actually, I think "Victorian" is a more suitable adjective than "American." That age produced a tidal wave of sentimental bilge on both sides of the Atlantic.

Last weekend I visited the church where I was confirmed. The program included "Blessed Assurance," not in the Lutheran Book of Worship but in the dreck-heavy With One Voice (which was supposed to be a supplement, I think, but which some churches apparently regard as a replacement). [Projectile] [Projectile]
There we have it--a "spiritual" ancestor of unsingable twentieth-century hymns ("Be Not Afraid" comes to mind). Sentimental, straining for those high notes like a third-rate folk-singer, and worst of all, capable of inserting a mindworm that plays ceaselessly all the next day. [Mad]

First, my condolances for being confirmed in the quagmire that is now known as the ELCA. Thankfully, the little green book in our pews does say Hymnal Supplement '98. I have seen the horor that is With One Voice A.K.A. With No Voice and I do feel for you. My own churches chior has sung a song out of that pitiful excuse for a hymnal supplement and it was painful. I moved to this church to get away from crap like that. Thankfully, rather than having half the "hymns" be "Blessed Assurance lite," I only have to deal with the chior anthem. Why a LCMS church has copies of With No Voice hanging around is beyond me. Unfortunately, my own synod does not need a book like With No Voice to fall completely into sentimental B.S. You do realize we thought nothing could get worse than the Green and Blue hymnals, respectively? It did. God save us from ourselves and give us back TLH.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Huntress:
Verse 1:
Jesus said to his disciples
Wash those weary toes!
Do it in a cheerful fashion,
never hold your nose!'

Chorus:
The world is full of smelly feet
Weary from the dusty street
The world is full of smelly feet
We'll was them for each other.

A gem from Michael Forster, printed in 'The Catholic Supplement to "Hymns, Songs and Chants"'.

Please tell me that this revolting, tasteless text is a spoof! I have heard many a horrid hymn in my day, but this is the only one I recall which nearly made me vomit.

Incidentally - my comments on 'All that I Am' hold. The offertory at Holy Communion has nothing to do with our thanking God for our personal gifts.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
[Killing me]

It must be a spoof.

J
 
Posted by richt (# 4679) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Incidentally - my comments on 'All that I Am' hold. The offertory at Holy Communion has nothing to do with our thanking God for our personal gifts.

Whilst this is correct, I still find nothing wrong with the words of the hymn itself. Though singing it during the offertory as we did this weekend does add to the general confusion of that time, as technically bringing big plates of money up to the alter has nothing to do with the preparation for Holy Communion either. If you're in with the "seeing as we're offering up our cash, we might as well offer up our personal gifts" camp then it's fine. [Smile]

However, beating "Daily, Daily sing to Mary", I've found a new candidate for my least favorite piece of music heard at a service.

At an Evangelical Youth Service, I heard the following. Having looked it up now, it appears to be a song by Donna Summer. I'm not sure if all the lyrics were sung as in the original, as I started fuming after the chorus. However, this is the section I definately remember them singing:

"We know a place
where Gods's people can run free
a new kind of love
and we call it agape

Don't take too long to find
true love transcends all time
that non-reacting, everlasting love

Give me your unconditional love
the kind of love I deserve
the kind I want to return"

[Mad]

[ 14. September 2003, 20:03: Message edited by: richt ]
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
quote:
Originally posted by Huntress:
Verse 1:
Jesus said to his disciples
Wash those weary toes!
Do it in a cheerful fashion,
never hold your nose!
...'

Please tell me that this revolting, tasteless text is a spoof!
It does appear to be a bona fide hymn, or at least several editors believe so. According to Hymn Quest (TM) it appears in three published collections, including the Complete Anglican Hymns Old and New (but not the Catholic HO&N, oddly enough).

Robin
 
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Plenty of people, including me, have said this before, and it will get said again and again and again.

But it happened in church yesterday, so I'm flagging it up right now.

Just wtf is it with songs that basically say: "I want to have sex with Jesus"?

[Confused] [Projectile] [Disappointed]

shudder
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Examples please.

J
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Innuendo?
 
Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Plenty of people, including me, have said this before, and it will get said again and again and again.

But it happened in church yesterday, so I'm flagging it up right now.

Just wtf is it with songs that basically say: "I want to have sex with Jesus"?

[Confused] [Projectile] [Disappointed]

shudder

One interpetation of The Song of Songs which used to be common was that Christ was the Bridegroom and the believer (of either sex) was the Bride - and we all know what brides and bridegrooms do, don't we?


Sometimes very explicitly sexual imagery was common in earlier centuries and I imagine it still goes on today.

L.
 
Posted by Huntress (# 2595) on :
 
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Huntress:
Verse 1:
Jesus said to his disciples
Wash those weary toes!
Do it in a cheerful fashion,
never hold your nose!'

Chorus:
The world is full of smelly feet
Weary from the dusty street
The world is full of smelly feet
We'll was them for each other.

A gem from Michael Forster, printed in 'The Catholic Supplement to "Hymns, Songs and Chants"'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please tell me that this revolting, tasteless text is a spoof! I have heard many a horrid hymn in my day, but this is the only one I recall which nearly made me vomit.

I assure you it is no spoof [Frown] [Ultra confused] but it is in the children's section of the hymnal, not that that's an excuse. The final verse is devoted to Jesus himself and ends with the exhortation 'Smart or scruffy, we'll still love him / wash his smelly feet!'

Another gem by the same author (and printed in the same book):

'The voice from the bush said
"Moses, look snappy,
Have I got a job for you!
I've looked around
and I'm not very happy
Here is what you have to do".'

Chorus: 'Lead my people to freedom (x3)
Got to go to the promised land.'
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
[Roll Eyes] Having just read Huntress's post...

If this is what liturgical music has come to (and I thought the 60s were bad..), I am very glad that I have access to churches that did not go with such trends... otherwise, I'd be a Buddhist by now...

Incidentally (and this is not a new hymn - I cannot remember where I heard it once), I remember shuddering at "There is a Fountain filled with Blood."
 
Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :
 
Earlier this year, I dragged myself to a local deanery meeting (never again!!), which featured ways to musically "add" to worship.

Riiiiiiiiiight. [brick wall] [Disappointed]

God help us if this is all we have to look forward to.

quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
[Roll Eyes] Having just read Huntress's post...

If this is what liturgical music has come to (and I thought the 60s were bad..), I am very glad that I have access to churches that did not go with such trends... otherwise, I'd be a Buddhist by now...

Incidentally (and this is not a new hymn - I cannot remember where I heard it once), I remember shuddering at "There is a Fountain filled with Blood."


 
Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 
And who remembers this piece of nonsense from my Post-Vatican II RC childhood??? [Big Grin]


"Rain, Lord, O RAIN , Lord! Rain, Master Jesus, Rain! Rain Your Spirit in my heart, Rain, Master Jesus Rain!"

"I looked at my hands and they looked like new, Rain, Master Jesus Rain, I think I'll give them back to You! Rain, Master Jesus Rain!!!"

More nonsense. etc etc

[Projectile]
 
Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
quote:
By your side, I would lay
In your arms, I would lay
Jesus lover of my soul
Nothing from you I withold.

We were then asked to close our eyes and "really just imagine this: lying with Jesus, lying in his arms"

[Eek!] [Projectile]
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
"Thou dids't leave thy throne" has the (to my disgraceful mind) rather dodgy line

quote:
thy couch was the sod
so it isn't only modern songs that that can raise sniggers. [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
How about 'My Jesus, my lifeline'?

I need you more than I've ever known
There's no-one quite like you
I'm crying out for your loving
Oh Jesus, oh Jesus
I've never known a love like this before

Or 'This is the air I breathe'

And I, I'm desperate for you
 
Posted by CaroB (# 4942) on :
 
How about "He brought me to his banqueting table" which has one verse that goes "I am my beloved's and he is mine"...
I actually quite like that one but I do get where everyone's coming from with this whole 'Jesus as lover' thing. I don't mind the songs per se but I do mind the way they make me feel that there's something wrong with my relationship with God just because I'm not sure I can sing the words truthfully. Maybe this is just my neuroticism speaking but I've heard similar complaints from other people. Hmmmmmm [Disappointed]

CaroB
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I'm very familiar with many mystic writings (and naturally the scriptures) which use erotic imagery, but what I find so hilarious about the "I want to have sex with Jesus" imagery today is that those using it in their compositions seem not to see the erotic implications at all.

Years ago, I once worked with three friars on a summer programme for little children. One of the friars taught the little ones (3-4 years old) to sing "I am my beloved's and he is mine..." song, complete with gestures (totally innocent, of course.) Neither he nor they realised that the essence of the text was about having sex in a wine cellar.

One nun I knew (...these were odd times...) wanted to have "Only You" (remember? 'you're my dream come true, my one and only you') at a profession ceremony, though the idea fortunately was vetoed. Another asked for, and was given permission to use, "I Know I'll Never Find Another You," with the modification of "if I should lose your love, Lord" instead of 'dear.'

I, of course, was joking when I said I'd use the obscure "I'll Build a Stairway to Heaven" (Neil Sedaka). Then again, had I known what was ahead, "Every day, in every way, you're going to drive me out of my mind" might have seemed appropriate.

[Snigger]
I'll build a stairway to heaven,
I'll climb to the highest star,
I'll build a stairway to heaven,
For heaven is where You are!
 
Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
What is it about the footwashing? One Maundy Thursday my fellow choir members and I were subjected to a piece that went something like this:

Jesus took a towel and he girded himself, and he washed my feet, yes, he washed my feet.

Jesus took a basin and he knelt himself down and he washed, yes, he washed my feet.

This might not have been so bad had it not been interspersed with bits of spoken "prose-poetry" such as the following:

"You kneel before me and I ask, 'Lord, do you wash my feet? Lord, do you wash my feet?'

"You kneel before me and I say, 'Lord, you'll never wash my feet."

Jesus took a towel, etc.

The spoken verses were doled out one per choir member, with the whole group taking the chorus. The woman who got the previously mentioned gem had a particularly strong New York accent, so that it came out more like, "Lo-awd, do you worsh my feett? Lo-awd, do you worsh my feett?" Thank the Lord, I've never heard the thing since.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Newman's Own wrote:

quote:
I'm very familiar with many mystic writings (and naturally the scriptures) which use erotic imagery, but what I find so hilarious about the "I want to have sex with Jesus" imagery today is that those using it in their compositions seem not to see the erotic implications at all.

Totally hillarious!! It's as if these people both writers and those who promote this type of stuff have undergone an irony bypass. Quite a number of times, I've accidently turned up at 'praise' service - to find myself grinning my head off in the songs, not because I am enraputured but because I'm ******* my sides.
J

J
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Totally hillarious!! It's as if these people both writers and those who promote this type of stuff have undergone an irony bypass. Quite a number of times, I've accidently turned up at 'praise' service - to find myself grinning my head off in the songs, not because I am enraputured but because I'm ******* my sides.
J


Bible translators too. From the NIV -

At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. Matt 25:1-5
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Indeed. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
As an aside, Anna certainly has a point! Though I cannot recall all of them offhand, there did seem to be a boring, low quality bunch of songs (and - not that it deserves the term - religious meditations, writings or poetry) which seemed to display a foot washing fetish.

Then again, from some of what I read (either in Purgatory or MW) in the past, some churches seem to be obsessed with this across the board. There were descriptions of entire congregations being invited to come forth and have their feet washed.
 
Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
One of the friars taught the little ones (3-4 years old) to sing "I am my beloved's and he is mine..." song, complete with gestures (totally innocent, of course.)

Of such things do defence lawyers make fortunes in our wiser and sadder days...

But the words are from the Song of Songs, whose erotic poetry is given hilariously laconic annotations in our K. James Bible (as Nicolson notes in his new book) by its lead translator, a Cambridge puritan. Thus:

A bundle of myrrhe is my welbeloued vnto me. He shall lie all night betwixt my breasts. Behold, thou art faire, my loue...
The Church and Christ congratulate each other.

Thy two breasts are like two yong Roes...which feed among the lillies.
Christ setteth forth the graces of the Church.

Thy lips, O my spouse! drop as the hony combe: hony and milke are vnder thy tongue, and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
Christ sheweth his loue to the Church.

&c&c&c

[ 20. September 2003, 17:36: Message edited by: Pax Britannica ]
 
Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
I never could abide

It's ME, it's ME, it's ME, oh Lord,
Standing in the need of prayer,
It's ME, it's ME, it's ME, oh Lord,
Standing in the need of prayer.

Not my brother, not my sister, but it's ME, oh Lord,
Standing in the need of prayer,
Not my brother, not my sister, but it's ME, oh Lord,
Standing in the need of prayer!


This is what passes for intercessions these days?? [Mad]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
One blessing for which I'll offer thanks at Evening Prayer is that I was not subjected to the intercessory prayer Anna mentioned... horrid.

I doubt anyone could get the impact of the forthcoming horror, but it was a dumb tune sung in a round.

Love, love, love, love,
Christians this
Is your call
Love your neighbour as yourself
For God loves all.
 
Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
Don't get me started on rounds sung in church, Newman's Own! That is truly a subject deserving a thread of its very own. There are a couple of dreadful examples in the ECUSA hymnal, one of them being:

God is working His purpose out as year succeeds to year,
God is working his purpose out, and the time is drawing near;
Nearer and nearer draws the time, the time that shall surely be,
When the earth shall be filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.


The words aren't so bad, but the tune is a real mess, and no one, but NO one, can sing it correctly as a round:

God is working His GOD IS WORKING HIS PURPOSE OUT... from which point everything degenerates.

[ 27. September 2003, 19:48: Message edited by: Anna B ]
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
I never could abide

It's ME, it's ME, it's ME, oh Lord,
Standing in the need of prayer,
It's ME, it's ME, it's ME, oh Lord,
Standing in the need of prayer.

<snip>
This is what passes for intercessions these days?? [Mad]

It's certainly not these days!

I remember singing this as a child - and that's at least over 45 years ago!

And I didn't like it then either!
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
...
God is working His purpose out .

The words aren't so bad, but the tune is a real mess, and no one, but NO one, can sing it correctly as a round:

I take it you're not singing it to the EH tune Benson (so so la do1.do1 te:-.la so etc)? If you are, I can see there might be a problem. I agree it doesn't make much sense to sing anything with a reasonably complex and non-repetitive text as a round. However, I confess to having a soft spot for Seek ye first, at least in certain moods. (If you don't know it, it's a two-part round where each part spends half its time singing Alleluia).

Robin
 
Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
I'll vouch for that one, Robin! It does fit in well on Easter morning (though I always have to stifle a temptation to sway back and forth while singing it).
 
Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
I apologize for double-posting. Has anyone else had to sit through the questionable practice of rehearsing liturgical music with the congregation right before the service? This has always struck me as tiresome, especially since it inevitably interferes with one's private devotions. I was reminded of this because the use of rounds and canons seems to present an overwhelming temptation to "rehearse."
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
I apologize for double-posting. Has anyone else had to sit through the questionable practice of rehearsing liturgical music with the congregation right before the service?

I've seen it done a few times. It only made me feel cross when the song was rubbish!

After all, if you want to sit it out you can.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Punkijellybean:


Anyone know what the line "I tried the broken cisterns, Lord, but oh, the waters failed", is about? I kid you not. The hymn starts "O Christ in thee my soul have found....the peace, the joy", etc, etc. A good start, but downhill thereon after.

Seems like we now have cyclist hymns, and plumbers'anthems. Any other vocational specials??

Hi, could anyone possibly locate a source for this hymn or Pm me with it?

Apparently there is going to be a blessing of some toilets (???)and a certain Eminent Ecclesiastical person is looking for material...
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by Punkijellybean:


Anyone know what the line "I tried the broken cisterns, Lord, but oh, the waters failed", is about?

Hi, could anyone possibly locate a source for this hymn or Pm me with it?

Have PM'ed the complete hymn, from Sacred Songs and Solos, as requested. The verse with the cisterns goes

I tried the broken cisterns, Lord,
But ah! the waters failed!
Even as I stooped to drink they fled
And mocked me as I wailed.

c.f. Jeremiah 2:13
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

And with that I think I'm finally about to become a shipmate!

Robin
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
thank you sweetie and congratulations!

Anyone with any other ideas for hymns suitable for blessing toilets, feel free...
 
Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :
 
"Before thy throne, O God, we kneel"?
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
thank you sweetie and congratulations!

Anyone with any other ideas for hymns suitable for blessing toilets, feel free...

Sudden memories of childhood Sunday school....


See the pennies dropping,
Listen as they fall...

Sorry folks! [Snigger] [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
I think "Let my people go" has real potential here you know...
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
thank you sweetie and congratulations!

Anyone with any other ideas for hymns suitable for blessing toilets, feel free...

A pleasure.

John Newton is also concerned with the problem of broken cisterns:

Though dark be my way,
since he is my guide,
'tis mine to obey,
'tis his to provide;
though cisterns be broken
and creatures all fail,
the word he has spoken
shall surely prevail.


And someone called Alan Luff confirms the toddler's worst fear (when the cistern is working all too well):

Primaeval waters roar
And rob us of our breath
To drown in depths of our despair
And drag us down to death

Robin

[ 01. October 2003, 09:08: Message edited by: Robin ]
 
Posted by Faithful Sheepdog (# 2305) on :
 
Of course, the bible reading to go with all these sanitary anthems is Proverbs 5: 15-18 (ESV)

15 Drink water from your own cistern,
flowing water from your own well.
16 Should your springs be scattered abroad,
streams of water in the streets?
17 Let them be for yourself alone,
and not for strangers with you.
18 Let your fountain be blessed,
and rejoice in the wife of your youth,
19 a lovely deer, a graceful doe.


At which point the reading enters Song of Songs territory and needs to be censored for the young, the faint of heart, and all delicate souls of a nervous disposition.

Neil
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Faithful Sheepdog - I was going to offer you the usual hostly welcome when I noticed your membership number and realised you'd actually been around for quite a while (18 months!) without posting. Where have you been hiding?

But I'll welcome you anyway on the occasion of your first post. I guess you know by now where all the facilities are - especially things like the Ship's 10 Commandments and the guidelines to each Board.

Have fun - and don't wait so long between posts or it'll be 74 years before you get promoted to shipmate!
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Anna wrote that she has known the hymn (see below) sung in the round to a dreadful tune. At the place of worship I attend, this hymn is set to a lovely tune and is never sung in the round. The version I know has several verses and is actually one of my favourites. [Razz]

quote:
God is working His purpose out as year succeeds to year,
God is working his purpose out, and the time is drawing near;
Nearer and nearer draws the time, the time that shall surely be,
When the earth shall be filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.

J
 
Posted by The Great God Dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
"God is working his purpose out, and the time is drawing near;
Nearer and nearer draws the time, the time that shall surely be,"

:shudder: Is this from the Christina "Snow was falling, snow on snow / snow snow snow snow snow" Rosetti school of padding out a verse?
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Ah, but despite the padding 'When the Waters Cover the Sea' actually scans with the tune, unlike some other worship songs I've attempted to sing along to. And of course, the idea of the waters covering the sea when the sea is made of water anyway does seem very silly (unless there is a biblical reference here which being an ignoramous I would surely miss) but...err.. I really do like singing this one. [Razz]

J
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I have no notion of who composed this dreary song (in fact, for all I know it may have been some nun of my acquaintance), but it was popular at religious professions during my younger days. I am not certain I remember the words exactly, but, in any case, the horrible melody (some phrases sounded as if they were sighs) is what 'made' the dreadful effect.

Take my hands and make them as your own,
And use them for your kingdom here on e-e-e-earth.
Consecrate them to your care
Anoint them for your service where
You may need your gospel to be sown.

Take my hands, they speak now for my heart
And by their actions make them show your love.
Open them to human need
So by your love they'll sow your seed,
That all may serve the Trinity above.

Take my hands, I give them to you, Lord,
...
Guard them on their daily course
Be their strength and guiding source
That all may know the love and hope you gave.

It ended with a swooping:
Take my hands!
Take my ha-a-a-nds,
O Lord.
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
Just to show that, while this discussion may be a dead horse, the phenomenon of Crappy Choruses is alive and well, here is a small gem from the latest edition of Stainer & Bell's Worship Live:

Simon was a rebel
Jesus loved him still
and replaced his dagger
with a daffodil

Moreover, subscribers are invited to submit a suitable tune to match the verse (to be fair, there are six verses, and some are better than the one I've quoted).

Robin
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Great God Dyfrig:
Is this from the Christina "Snow was falling, snow on snow / snow snow snow snow snow" Rosetti school of padding out a verse?

I bought the complete works of Christina Rossetti last weekend.

But I haven't managed to read any as my daughter pinched the book.

I like "snow on snow on snow". It's cool. And it's metaphorical. And its well set by Holst (IIRC). Most metaphorical - the long deep winter-time of the soul, geddit?
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Robin wrote:

quote:
Simon was a rebel
Jesus loved him still
and replaced his dagger
with a daffodil

now that is a crappy chorus! Maybe I could compose chud all day and give up the day job?

Ken,
I love in the Deep Mid-winter too. It's a classic!

J
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Hopefully by the time ken gets the book back, he will realise what a dreadful, sentimental, drawn out stream of drivel Rosetti wrote.

Come back Felicia Hemans, all is forgiven.
 
Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
(crusading)

hands out jump ropes and sings Alan Ginsberg rhyme

"I fought the dharma, and the dharma won."
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
I'm told by my literary correspondence that Rosetti wrote a poem about lesbianism. Is this true?
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally babbled by Anna B:
Don't get me started on rounds sung in church...

They'll never replace vocal canons [Smile]
 
Posted by The Bede's American Successor (# 5042) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
This Sunday during Communion, we will be singing a little ditty with a refrain that runs: Bind us together, Lord/Bind us together/with chords that cannot be broken.../bind us together in Love.

It's actually not too bad, and the verse fits the propers quite nicely.

Still, I am incapable of thinking of it as anything other than "Bondage for Jesus."

tomb

One bed. Three bodies. Menage a trois.

(For those that don't know the original:
One bread, one Body, one Lord of all.)
 
Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
This Sunday during Communion, we will be singing a little ditty with a refrain that runs: Bind us together, Lord/Bind us together/with chords that cannot be broken.../bind us together in Love.

You must have the same book as us judging by the typo.
 
Posted by Thistle (# 5142) on :
 
quote:
I'm told by my literary correspondence that Rosetti wrote a poem about lesbianism. Is this true?

Several of Rosetti's poems were addressed to a female love interest, though it's entirely possible that she was using a male voice. Her major work, Goblin Market, includes two sisters who express their love for each other in a physical/sexual sort of way. General opinion seems to be that Rosetti's sexuality was just very repressed (but I'm taking that mainly from Germaine Greer, and I'm sure most people appear repressed to her!)

As far as inappropriate choruses go, a music leader of my acquaintance told me about a couple who decided to have 'Led like a lamb to the slaughter (in silence, and shame)' as the first hymn of their wedding ceremony. The chorus perks up a bit, to be fair, but the implication is unfortunate to say the least!

[ 06. November 2003, 22:14: Message edited by: Thistle ]
 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Bloody Christina and her "snow on snow"...

Ever tried singint that at 35 degrees C during an Antipodean Midnight Mass?

As for Mrs Hemans: Dyfrig, all was forgiven years ago when my dear late dad regaled us with the following:

The boy stood on the burning deck
A-picking his nose like mad.
He rolled it up in little balls
And threw them at his dad.

Forgive the tangent, but I could not resist it. It apparently did the rounds of St Patrick's College, Goulburn ( a grim boarding school in a grimmer New South Wales railway town)during the 1930s.

cheers,

m
 
Posted by jugular (# 4174) on :
 
quote:
Goulburn ( a grim boarding school in a grimmer New South Wales railway town)
Ahem! I was BORN in that grim town, and my father worked on said railways. [Paranoid]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Multipara wrote:
quote:
Bloody Christina and her "snow on snow"...

Ever tried singint that at 35 degrees C during an Antipodean Midnight Mass?

LOL, very inappropriate! But on the sort of cold Christmas Eve night, when we celebrate Holy Communion in our local church at the foot of the Pennines, ya' can't beat it. Guess, geography and climate wasn't Christina's strong point.


[Biased] J
 
Posted by ce (# 1957) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Multipara wrote:
quote:
Bloody Christina and her "snow on snow"...

Ever tried singint that at 35 degrees C during an Antipodean Midnight Mass?

LOL, very inappropriate! But on the sort of cold Christmas Eve night, when we celebrate Holy Communion in our local church at the foot of the Pennines, ya' can't beat it. Guess, geography and climate wasn't Christina's strong point.
ISTR that it was written as a commission for an American Magazine (Scribners?).

Anyway, think allegory, she used it a lot - "deep midwinter of the soul" sort of thing.
And have a look at Goblin Market

ce
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Bloody Christina and her "snow on snow"...

Ever tried singint that at 35 degrees C

It's a metaphor, dearest.

I think she was well aware that it doesn't snow that often in Bethlehem!

(Tho it does sometimes)
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Reminds me of both a prayer (Hail and Blessed be the hour and the moment) and a common answer we children were taught about when Christ was born: "At midnight, in Bethlehem, in the piercing cold."

I have no notion of where the hour of Jesus' birth is recorded - I assume that the prayer was written somewhere that invariably had piercing cold in (the assumed date of) December.

I'm in Christmas mode as a result of these posts - yes, I like the hymn, but there is dreadful theology (ironically the sort of point condemned centuries ago, as denying Jesus' humanity) in "Veiled in flesh, the Godhead see!"
 
Posted by ce (# 1957) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Bloody Christina and her "snow on snow"...

Ever tried singint that at 35 degrees C

It's a metaphor, dearest.

Yep, metaphor, dunno why I said allegory - probably thinking of "Goblin Market" - although Rossetti tried to deny that that was allegorical....

ce
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
there is dreadful theology (ironically the sort of point condemned centuries ago, as denying Jesus' humanity) in "Veiled in flesh, the Godhead see!"

That's not Christina! That is Wesley.

Far from denying Jesus's humanity, In the Bleak Midwinter wonderfully (if sentimentally) affirms it:

quote:

Enough for Him, Whom cherubim, worship night and day,
Breastful of milk, and a mangerful of hay;
Enough for Him, Whom angels fall before,
The ox and ass and camel which adore.

Angels and archangels may have gathered there,
Cherubim and seraphim thronged the air;
But His mother only, in her maiden bliss,
Worshipped the beloved with a kiss.


 
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
ken, I suspect you are too kind to the late Miss Rossetti.

I bet she knew about as much about the Bethlehem snow situation as she did about where babies came from (what with being a delicately brought-up English gel of the time).

cheers,

m
 
Posted by musician (# 4873) on :
 
Not so many years ago I first heard
"We have a king who rides a donkey" at Easter...sung to the tune of "what shall we do with the drunken sailor".

I now think of it as the drunken donkey song.

It's awful.

My kids hate a lot of the chorusy things too, specially when a 40-something is exhorting them to join in the actions.... [Projectile]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Oh, heavens, Ken - my mind may not always be at its sharpest, but I have never reached the point where I could not tell Wesley from Christina. [Smile] I was only making a general comment.

And here is one more (unrelated to ken's posts.) I loathe when Gregorian or Anglican chant, or chant melodies that have become popular hymns (such as Veni, Veni Emmanuel), are sung at a very sl-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-w pace, because people who've never bothered to listen to CDs of Solesmes think that chants are supposed to drag on like bouts of influenza. I suppose some people think it is reverent - actually, the effect is ghastly.
 
Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
Musician said
quote:
I now think of it as the drunken donkey song.

It's one of the abiding dreadful memories of a post-Christian friend of mine - only she thinks of it as the drunken Jesus song...

And talking of inappropriate tunes, a few weeks ago one of our communion hymns was something set to the tune of "Clementine". The choir bursr into it just as I got to the communion rail and I collapsed on my knees with a rather unholy giggle!
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Our local radio played 'Love Divine, all loves excelling' this morning set to the melody of Mozart's 'Ave Verum.'

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! [Eek!]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
I bet she knew about as much about the Bethlehem snow situation as she did about where babies came from (what with being a delicately brought-up English gel of the time).

[Smile]

Maybe you confuse her and her brother with their friend Ruskin! (who certainly had, er, trouble in that department [Biased] )

I seriously suspect that biological ignorance had nothing to do with Christina Rossetti's single state.

The Rosettis were of course Italian by descent - and their uncle was "Vampyre" Polidori, intimate friend of the Byrons & Shelleys. Most of their social circle seemed quite knowledgeable about sex. In fact the only thing that stopped them going at it like fluffy bunnies was the large amounts of ether and opium they consumed.

Not that Christina ever got involved with such things - apparently she turned down two proposals of marriage because of religious reasons (one was an atheist and the other - horror! - a Roman Catholic) and spent a lot of time on charities for the rescuing of prostitutes and unmarried mothers.

I bet she knew exactly what her brother was doing all those times he went to stay at the Morris's whenever Mr. Morris was away for a few days.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It's a metaphor, dearest.


For what?!?! [Confused] That's a rather bizarre reading - she's told us already that it was in the bleak midwinter, so presumably the presence of snow is to press home the fact that this was, indeed the case. It's not metaphor - it's description. It might scrape in as pathetic fallacy, but there is no metaphorical reading possible, here. What is a lot of heavy snowfall meant to be a metaphor for, pray?
 
Posted by ce (# 1957) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It's a metaphor, dearest.


For what?!?! [Confused] That's a rather bizarre reading - she's told us already that it was in the bleak midwinter, so presumably the presence of snow is to press home the fact that this was, indeed the case. It's not metaphor - it's description. It might scrape in as pathetic fallacy, but there is no metaphorical reading possible, here. What is a lot of heavy snowfall meant to be a metaphor for, pray?
Things were already pretty horrible and they were getting steadily worse?

ce
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
What is a lot of heavy snowfall meant to be a metaphor for, pray?

Well, midwinter is like a dark and cold time, and like a soul, or a world, mired and trapped in sin and shame and spiritual dullness.

And all that snow on snow on snow on snow on snow on snow is like the world being covered by a whole lot of shiny but spiritually chilling stuff.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Ok, I'll grudgingly grant you that one.

It's still a shite hymn, though.
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
A comment in the 'conversion' thread in Hell ('Life is wonderful') suddenly brought memories flooding back of this dreadfully trite little ditty, to such a jolly tune that we used to sing in the 60s and 70s. Anyone remember it?

Life is wonderful
Yes its wonderful
Life is wonderful now to me
I let Jesus in
He changed everything
Life is wonderful now
Since his blessings came into my heart
Joy unspeakable fills every part
And I want to live for my Lord
Life is wonderful now!
[Projectile]
 
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
Coming late to this thread .. how can I have missed it!

quote:
Originally posted by Punkijellybean:
Anyone know what the line "I tried the broken cisterns, Lord, but oh, the waters failed", is about? I kid you not. The hymn starts "O Christ in thee my soul have found....the peace, the joy", etc, etc. A good start, but downhill thereon after.
Seems like we now have cyclist hymns, and plumbers'anthems. Any other vocational specials??

I always thought the plumber's anthem was:

"I got drains
I got drains
I got drains, I got drains! [Smile]
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Wow, Gracious Rebel - after so many pages, I thought we'd plumbed the very depths of hell, but you really have come with a beaut, there.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Dyfrig,

on this at least, we can agree.
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
The Cub had been making references to a particularly horrible hymn which I just had to find an MP3 for, in its entirety. Imagine his surprise when I played "Royal Telephone" on my Mac the next time he mentioned it!

Telephone to glory, oh what joy divine!
You can feel the current coming down the line!
Made by God the Father for his loved and own
You can talk to Jesus on His Royal Telephone...


[Eek!]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
David,

quote:
Telephone to glory, oh what joy divine!
You can feel the current coming down the line!
Made by God the Father for his loved and own
You can talk to Jesus on His Royal Telephone...


Sung to a skiffle tune?
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
This may explain why prayer is a bit like hearing a distant voice saying, "Trying to connect you."
 
Posted by diapason (# 4230) on :
 
To continue the theme on hymns for plumbers, roofers, cyclists etc, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the animal trainer's hymn - "Gladly, the cross-eyed bear", or even the baker's hymn - "I knead thee every hour"...

There's also a hazardous opportunity for misplacing a breath in "My God, I love Thee not [gasp] because I hope for Heaven thereby"
 
Posted by Wm Duncan (# 3021) on :
 
Last Sunday we sang an oldie (part of our centennial observances): "How Tedious and Tasteless the Hours." And a duet sang "Ivory Palaces." Just to say that schlocky hymnody is nothing new.

Wm Duncan
 
Posted by flev (# 3187) on :
 
And another superb song to patronise the kids with...

Life without Jesus is like a doughnut,
Is like a doughnut, is like a doughnut,
Life without Jesus is like a doughnut,
'cos there's a hole in the middle of your soul


Repeat ad infinitum using ideas from the kids for other things with holes in the middle (eg hula hoop, party ring biscuit...) The ultimate so far has to be "a fried egg with the yolk taken out".

It's sung to a super-perky tune, with a chorus about letting Jesus in to fill the hole in your life. And once the kids start suggesting alternative verses, there's no chance of scanning properly!
[Disappointed]
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
But you can get doughnuts without holes - I've seen them in Morrisons.
 
Posted by flev (# 3187) on :
 
Yep - that sort of kills the imagery stone dead, doesn't it!
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by flev:
And another superb song to patronise the kids with...

Life without Jesus is like a doughnut,
Is like a doughnut, is like a doughnut,
Life without Jesus is like a doughnut,
'cos there's a hole in the middle of your soul


Repeat ad infinitum using ideas from the kids for other things with holes in the middle (eg hula hoop, party ring biscuit...) The ultimate so far has to be "a fried egg with the yolk taken out".

It's sung to a super-perky tune, with a chorus about letting Jesus in to fill the hole in your life. And once the kids start suggesting alternative verses, there's no chance of scanning properly!
[Disappointed]

It's theologically nonsense as well. God is person-shaped, not hole-shaped.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Dyfig wrote:
quote:
But you can get doughnuts without holes - I've seen them in Morrisons.


and for some reason that really cracked me up. Do they have jam or vanilla custard in them?
J
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Miffy:
Our local radio played 'Love Divine, all loves excelling' this morning set to the melody of Mozart's 'Ave Verum.'

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! [Eek!]

They did it again! [Frown]
 
Posted by Albatross (# 4153) on :
 
Ahhh, Christmas approaches, and the opportunity for ever more saccharine-sweet hymns and choruses comes with it. I see we are already discussing the... ummm.... interesting qualities of "In the bleak midwinter" (which was of course neither bleak nor midwinter), and also "O come O come Immanuel" - which happens to be a fave of mine, although I agree it's usually sung at a funereal pace that does it few favours.

I was once in a choir (don't ask how!) that did the Shepherd's Pipe (or Pie) Carol, which wasn't bad except for the Pie of course. I also found myself standing next to a rather good singer - and Quaker - in said choir, who decided to make sure he was singing politically correct versions of the lines. No-one else was, and it was most distracting - especially as, not being able to read music, I was following him. (Except when he attempted - and almost pulled off - the descant for "O come all ye Faithful" as I didn't have my nutcrackers with me.)

Mrs. Albatross has a personal dislike for "See him lying on a bed of straw" that I can sort of understand - I've heard it sung so many times by more traditional congregations who are making a half-hearted attempt at being "with it", complete with of course the sound of embarrassed clapping that never remains quite in time.

One that never seems to get sung these days is of course the rather too masculine "God rest ye merry Gentlemen" although I think it should still have a place at midnight communions on Christmas Eve where the church is a little too close for comfort to the nearest Pub.

"Little Donkey" anyone? I used to love this when I was very little, but find myself cringing at it now, but it is of course a fixture for many Nativity services, and offers a valuable time for any Sunday School Teachers/Junior Church Leaders (delete as tradition dictates) to deal with the third shepherd who is having a crisis while Joseph, Mary, and Donkey Toy from the Costa Del Sol wander around the church.

Another one that I personally think is strictly for the younger members is "Away in a Manger" - by this point the sugar overdose raches epic proportions, and the atmosphere is so full of it it might as well be candy floss.

Any more? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Cartwheel (# 5149) on :
 
"This is the truth sent from above"

It's a lovely carol but for some reason, which I have never understood, people tend to cut all the verses dealing with the Fall, so you go straight from "Woman was made with man to dwell" to "Thus we were heirs to endless woes"!!
 
Posted by psyduck (# 2270) on :
 
Cartwheel - reminds me of the Christmas Watchnight Service I organized some years ago, with the Youth Group set to offer hospitality to the congregation as they left for home. The last hymn was "Good Christian men, rejoice!"

And as we got to "Ox and ass before him bow" I suddenly remembered that in a very few minutes, the congregation would be sipping oxtail soup! Seemed a bit heartless...
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albatross:


Another one that I personally think is strictly for the younger members is "Away in a Manger" - by this point the sugar overdose raches epic proportions, and the atmosphere is so full of it it might as well be candy floss.


I dunno. I rather think "Away in a manger" is rather spoilt by only ever being lisped by four-year-olds. Sung well, it's a lovely tune, but people get put off it because they never do hear it sung well, because it is deemed to be a children's song and therefore only very small children get to sing it.

Rhiannon
 
Posted by kentishmaid (# 4767) on :
 
Sorry if this is already lurking somewhere in the thread, but I seem to remember being forced to sing some chorus in choir, set to the tune of 'I love to go a wandering', with He lives, he lives, I know that my Redeemer lives, he lives, he lives within my heart, set to the Val De Ri part. Truly terrible.

Then there was the chorus set to the tune of the Norwegian counting song (for any ex-brownies out there), that went:
Jesus loved us and he died for us,
That from sin we might be
Cleansed by him who longs to give to us
Life eternal and free
So, let us,
Thank him for his grace
That leads to believe
etc.

We were also forced to sing 'The Highway Code', which I understand was actually a chart topper in the sixties, but for our purposes was basically used to poke fun at Matins. Bizarre, but there you go. (This did, however, come from the same choir mistress, who, when exhorting us to sing with more expression in the Ugly Duckling song (from the film Hans Christian Anderson) told us that she wanted 'a really big whee!'. (I hasten to add that said choir mistress was my dearly departed mum, who I love to bits, but some of the things she made us sing......).)
 
Posted by Hinematov (# 4766) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
quote:
Originally posted by Albatross:


Another one that I personally think is strictly for the younger members is "Away in a Manger" - by this point the sugar overdose raches epic proportions, and the atmosphere is so full of it it might as well be candy floss.


I dunno. I rather think "Away in a manger" is rather spoilt by only ever being lisped by four-year-olds. Sung well, it's a lovely tune, but people get put off it because they never do hear it sung well, because it is deemed to be a children's song and therefore only very small children get to sing it.

Rhiannon

True. Maddy Prior did a very nice version of it in the "Carols and Capers" CD
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Perhaps its being Advent stirred this unhappy memory in me (though it was not a 'seasonal' song.) Once again, the horrid tune is necessary to catch the full impact, but the words were as follows (I can only remember one verse... which is merciful):

Chorus:
Glory to God on high,
Peace to all good men,
Honour and praise him all of our days,
And love him and all mankind.

Verse I recall:
Praise the Lord in prayer,
Praise the Lord in song,
Praise the Lord in all we do,
And we can't go far wrong.
 
Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
One of the worst songs I've ever encountered in the "let's pretend everything's wonderful now we've given our lives to Jesus" variety goes:

"I'm in-right out-right up-right down-right happy through and through
I'm in-right out-right up-right down-right happy 'cos it's true
Jesus cared for meeeeeee, when he died on Calvareeeee
I'm in-right out-right up-right down-right happy through and through."
With actions.

And one of the worst in the aforementioned "having sex with Jesus" category (and "grating split infinitive" category) contains the lines:

"What a friend I've found, closer than a brother
I have felt your touch, more intimate than lovers
It would break my heart to ever lose each other."

And one of the all-time worst songs ever written, which I am thankful I've never actually been forced to sing, but which I happened to see printed in a book of songs that were trying to be up-to-date and relevant to real issues in the real world, etc, consists solely of the repeated lyric "AIDS, AIDS, give us a break."

I kid you not. Can someone explain to me how that constitutes a worship song?
 
Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
(How did that happen? I was trying to edit my post to add a word. Could a host please delete the repeated one? Thanks)

Talitha - duplicated post deleted as requested - if you care to let me know what the error was I'll fix that as well and delete additional un-necessary posts.

BTW - I suspect that you clicked the right-hand most icon (the quote icon) rather than the edit icon one in from the right. It's an error I often make - but as a host I can fix it!

[edited as above]

[ 11. December 2003, 22:15: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Talitha wrote:

quote:
And one of the all-time worst songs ever written, which I am thankful I've never actually been forced to sing, but which I happened to see printed in a book of songs that were trying to be up-to-date and relevant to real issues in the real world, etc, consists solely of the repeated lyric "AIDS, AIDS, give us a break."

I kid you not. Can someone explain to me how that constitutes a worship song?

Ouch, that makes me wince. Reduces one of our biggest sexual health problems to a Kit-Kat advert. Beggars belief.
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Plenty of people, including me, have said this before, and it will get said again and again and again.

But it happened in church yesterday, so I'm flagging it up right now.

Just wtf is it with songs that basically say: "I want to have sex with Jesus"?

[Confused] [Projectile] [Disappointed]

shudder

I agree.

But not only that, but the large number of songs in the mid Nineties which in an effort to seem 'intimate' ended up containing some very unfortunate phrases. I'm reminded of the following Matt Redman song (which I admit to singing heartily at a couple of Soul Survivors)

(emphasis mine)
quote:
When the music fades
All is stripped away
And I simply come

Longing just to bring
Something that's of worth
That will bless your heart

(blush)
 
Posted by Cartwheel (# 5149) on :
 
Can I submit the following as the most embarrassing double entendre EVER in a worship song. As far as I remember, it goes

"Before the world began
You were on his mind
And everything you've done
Is precious in His eyes
Because of his great love
He sent his only Son:
Everything was done so you would come."

and so on for another 2 verses, all with the same last line.

If I ever get married, I want that song at my wedding! [Devil]
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I love this thread, and I'm laughing aloud about the double entendre, so I hope no one will mind my posting two examples of 'old but bad' Christmas hymns that have no double meaning.

One, which I always thought had a tune that should be played by an organ grinder (only a monkey would appreciate it), had these words:

O dear little children,
O come one and all,
Draw near to a crib here in Bethelehem's stall,
And see what a bright ray of heaven's delight,
The father has sent on this thrice holy night.
(I've no notion of why it is thrice holy... and just noticed that this crowd is 'coming' as well...)

Another, all the worse when choirs 'dragged' (which they always did), was:

See amidst the winter's snow,
Born to us on earth below,
See the tender lamb appears
Promised from eternal years.
 
Posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist (# 4081) on :
 
To be fair, the above mentioned 'So you would come' line is alway followed by the chorus which starts 'Come to the Father...'. Maybe Cartwheel could imagine there was just a comma in between.

Scrolling up back to 'Life without Jesus is like a doughnut', am I the only one who remembers a second verse which went:

quote:
Life without Jesus is like soda without the bubbles,
Soda without the bubbles, Soda without the bubbles
Life without Jesus is like soda without the bubbles
Life tastes flat and full of troubles

Though it doesn't scan very well - you have to sing 'sodawithoutthebubbles'.

OOT
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
I went to a few of the early Soul Survivors in the mid -late 1990s. Along with 'When the music fades' - which has to be a sort of unintentional spiritual version of a Barry White song - we also frequently sang the unfortunately titled It's Rising Up, also by Matt Redman.

Yes, we also sang 'More than Oxygen'.

I remember attending a seminar given by Kevin Prosch amongst others (how I enjoyed his music, and his improvisation). On being questioned on whether women should lead worship he responded correctly, but in a rather unfortunate way:

quote:
"When a woman comes on stage, you know it's going to be a good night"
[Hot and Hormonal]

OK, OK. I appreciate that I probably had a terribly smutty mind in those days. [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Strange, isn't it? We demand life imprisonment for murderers; we ponder about the death penalty for Saddam; yet, curiously, Matt Redman is allowed to walk free. Why is this?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Strange, isn't it? We demand life imprisonment for murderers; we ponder about the death penalty for Saddam; yet, curiously, Matt Redman is allowed to walk free. Why is this?

Because Tim & Pete "Easy Chords" Hughes are right behind him...
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
I'll admit the urge to jump to Matt Redman's defence here. [Ultra confused]


My experience of church music at that point fell into two categories. Bear in mind that at the time I was a member of a large Anglican charismatic church.

1) Hymns Ancient and Crusty
2) Pseudo Hymns Masquerading as Contemporary Music. (ie, Graham Kendrick).

Neither option provided music that a Christian teen could feel proud of 'in the world'.

So when Matt Redman and his Magic Band burst onto the scene they seemed exciting and new.. a new paradigm of Christian music.

What's more, because Matt Redman's songs are relatively unsophisticated it was easy to transplant them from Soul Survivor to the local congregation.

Now, ten years on I'll not be found singing anything but hymns in church because I find the tunes and the words more helpful. As a result I've even begun to appreciate Graham Kendrick although it's been about two years since I actually sung any of his songe in church. But I admit that at the time Matt Redman served his purpose.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Matt Redman ... seemed exciting and new.. a

[Killing me]

quote:
because Matt Redman's songs are relatively unsophisticated it was easy to transplant them from Soul Survivor to the local congregation.
You've hit on something very important here - that contemporary congregations are somehow too stupid or unsophisticated to sing anything more complex than a Graham Kendrick song.

Any congregation is capable of singing four part harmonies (just get the Wild Goose people in for a Big Sing and you'll see what I mean). We deserve better than anodyne, poppy crap which appeals only to the banal sensibilities of middle aged clergy who think they can fill pews by forcing people to sing second-rate imitations of tenth rate genres. We are meant to worshipping Almighty God, not drowning in drivel.
 
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Whilst twiddling the radio dial this morning I hit upon Premier Christian Radio just as it was in the middle of playing a song of the most breathtaking banality that I thought of this thread straight away [Big Grin]

It’s by some guy called Chris Rice, is called "Cartoons" (I kid you not), and was all about how different cartoon characters would praise God. I was already shaking my head in disbelief as he sang "Yabbadabbadooyah!" and "Scoobydoobydooyah!", but I honestly thought I’d fallen into a parallel universe when he started singing (with cartoon voices):

[Scooby Doo voice] Hrarerooyah!
[Kermit the Frog voice] Hilolooyah!
[Elmer Fudd voice] Hawewooyah!

I have to confess I couldn’t speak for some minutes after hearing this. Even now, several hours later, words still utterly, utterly fail me.
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
Amen Dyfrig. Amen.
 
Posted by Benedictus (# 1215) on :
 
Lovely, dyfrig.

Jack the Lass, I was so stunned I googled it. Here are apparently the full lyrics to that, that thing Jack heard on the radio.
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
I'm just a little bit worried that the song seems to imply that Beavis and Butthead are beyond redemption.
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I love this thread, and I'm laughing aloud about the double entendre, so I hope no one will mind my posting two examples of 'old but bad' Christmas hymns that have no double meaning...........

See amidst the winter's snow,
Born to us on earth below,
See the tender lamb appears
Promised from eternal years.

Ah - I'm afraid this one does have a double meaning, for me anyway. The children's writer Antonia Forest has a character in one of her books say that lines 3 and 4 of this verse always remind her of school dinners. And having once read that, I'm now unable to see this verse without that mental image!

Boopy
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Not just Beavis and Butthead, dyfrig---there's no mention of South Park! And did I miss Wile E. Coyote? 'Judge not!'
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cartwheel:
Can I submit the following as the most embarrassing double entendre EVER in a worship song. As far as I remember, it goes

"Before the world began
You were on his mind
And everything you've done
Is precious in His eyes
Because of his great love
He sent his only Son:
Everything was done so you would come."

and so on for another 2 verses, all with the same last line.

If I ever get married, I want that song at my wedding! [Devil]

Now I feel free to admit that my horribly dirty mind will not allow me to sing the hymn "Just As I Am."

Oh, Lamb of God, I . . .

. . . I need to sing something else! [Ultra confused]

Glad to learn that I'm not alone. Curse this fallen world.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
You've hit on something very important here - that contemporary congregations are somehow too stupid or unsophisticated to sing anything more complex than a Graham Kendrick song.

You're obviously a decent singer. Many Graham Kendrick songs are actually quite hard for lots of not-very-good singers to sing. Not only do they sometimes have more range than most of us plebs can manage, but he has an irritating habit of ending with really odd cadences that give most of us no idea what note we should be singing even if we could hit it.

And I can't play the chords without looking them up in the back of the book.

Messrs Redman and Hughes are mostly quite a lot easier.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
No, ken, I'm not a decent singer at all- but with a little help I found myself capable of participating in simple but affective four part harmonies.

The problem with the Kendricks and the Redmans of this world is (apart from the sheer banality of most of their words) that they are expecting congregations to participate in singing songs that are written in a style and idiom suited to individual performance, namely bland mid-tempo rock-pop. They do not actually understands, it seems to me, what a congregational piece is about.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
No, ken, I'm not a decent singer at all- but with a little help I found myself capable of participating in simple but affective four part harmonies.

You're better than 95% of our congregation then!

quote:

The problem with the Kendricks and the Redmans of this world is (apart from the sheer banality of most of their words) that they are expecting congregations to participate in singing songs that are written in a style and idiom suited to individual performance,

To be fair, I'm not sure they are expecting that at all, though I suppose they don't mind the royalties. Kendrick can and does write singable things (except for those bloody awful harmonies on the final bar, whiuch he seems addicted to).

Not sure about Redman, but his apparent successor (Redman is already dated for the teenage worship-song-fans, there is a lot of fashion in this) Pete Hughes writes singably, as does (when he wants to) Stuart Townend.

I would go so far as to say that Kendrick and Townend sometimes even write hymns. One or two of which will survive.

But they also write other sorts of songs that aren't intended to be congregational hymns at all. Perhaps the real culprits are the people who choose inappropriate songs for churches, not those who write them.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
A good point, ken. Unfortunately some churches feel the pressure to include such songs for congregational worship as they see these are the ones used in 'successful' churches. If that is the only reason, I can't see it working. (However the popularity of 'Shine Jesus Shine' is that it is more in hymn format and possible to sing as a congregation.)

A choir would not expect the congregation to sing an anthem; neither should the soloist or worship band expect the congregation to join in the more complicated modern worship songs. There is a time to occasionally sit back and listen, whatever your preferred worship style.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There is a time to occasionally sit back and listen, whatever your preferred worship style.

Yes. It's called a concert.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There is a time to occasionally sit back and listen, whatever your preferred worship style.

Yes. It's called a concert.
Ken, I said 'occasionally' - if I went to a concert that only had 1 item I'd want my money back! [Roll Eyes]

A one-hour service should have room for one anthem, or one organ voluntary or one solo, surely?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
And one Matt Redman song?????
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But they also write other sorts of songs that aren't intended to be congregational hymns at all. Perhaps the real culprits are the people who choose inappropriate songs for churches, not those who write them.

One of our worship teams recently decided to introduce "Word of God, Speak" into our Sunday Morning repertoire. Um, yeah it's a current pop hit by an extremely popular band, but it is not the sort of thing congregations should attempt to sing in unison. I am pleased to report that it was terribly awkward, and it may be awhile before it's attempted again--if ever. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
(However the popularity of 'Shine Jesus Shine' is that it is more in hymn format and possible to sing as a congregation.)

Have you ever hear that song played on an organ? I have and it is an experience I regret having and, at the time, would have rather listened to a poorly-tuned symphony than the joke comming out of the pipes of the organ.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Regarding hearing SJS on the organ: I have, but I agree that in order to be played well it has to be done by somebody in sympathy with that type of music (a former organist, who lived permanently in the 1970s and who bounced up and down on the organ stool, could play almost anything and get away with it!)
If we ever have to sing it now (thankfully only about twice a year) it is played on the grand piano - rather well, I might say, to the Bill Llewellyn (RSCM) arrangement, with optional coda and descant.

The hymn society of Great Britain (which I mentioned on the earlier reincarnation of this thread) exists to encourage good modern hymn writing. One of their articles took 'Shine Jesus Shine' to bits and critically analysed why it was a poor example (ie. claiming to be accessible but the words meaning as little to the unchurched as some of the more obscure victorian hymns). They have a website where you can get details about their written bulletins.
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
As I enjoy this thread every day, I am reluctant to post this "song" as I fear it will sound the death knell for this thread! Why? Because I doubt anyone can find anything worse than it.

Setting the scene: our Church Retreat in the Hunter Valley last November [yes, there was "testing of spirits" ;-), and in fact a Bible study needed to be put back to the next day as we [incl. priest] arrived late from said testing!] and I was asked to lead the Morning Prayer office. The Gospel reading was on blind Bartimaeus and I needed to choose a hymn for the service [the only reason it has taken me two months to post this is that I kept forgetting to bring the Hynm Book home!!!] Luckily, for a person new to leading as me, Together in Song has a list of suitable hymns for certain passages.

Well, the song does mention blind Bartimaeus. But it is not what I would call a good song.

Are you ready?

quote:

There once was a man as mean as could be;
if he could take two then he'd try to take three.
Then one day he took Jesus for tea:
and Jesus helped him to change.

Well, Jesus helps meanies and goodies and baddies,
Jesus helps lazies and happies and saddies,
Jesus helps lonelies and mums, kids and daddies,
and Jesus wants us to help too.


Blind Bartimaeus, as all will agree,
was wise to keep shouting as loud as could be,
"O please, son of David, have mercy on me!"
Jesus opened his eyes.
(remainder removed ... see below)
Words and Music © Digby Hannah (1949-)

Needless to say, I didn't select it, but went for a hymn I knew that was similar to the Psalm for the Day. I did, of course, show it to my priest the day before and said this was what I wanted as it truly got to the heart of the story. [Two face] He was not amused. [Big Grin]

Ian.

[Post edited by TonyK to reduce quotation of copyright material - see my post below]

[ 11. January 2004, 11:49: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Admiral Holder - copyright law prevents us from displaying complete hymns, songs, poems etc unless they were written more than 70 years ago. This clearly cannot be the case here.

I have therefore chopped out much of what you so carefully typed in (sorry) while leaving enough (I hope) to give a flavour.

If you wish shipmates to see the complete work, then find a link to a website that has the whole text - copyright considerations are then theirs and not ours!

Yours aye ... TonyK
Host - Dead Horses
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
And I thought I'd heard it all! You are quite correct, Admiral - that is absolutely the worst - even worse than the doughnuts. This thread is a delight to me, but, though I thought that no one who had survived the 1960s and 1970s could hear anything worse than what was then, I am constantly amazed at how dreadful things have become since.

[Killing me]
 
Posted by Admiral Holder (# 944) on :
 
Newman's Own: I am glad it gave you a good laugh - you have provided me with so many [Killing me] moments on this thread, I am glad I could give one back!

Tony: my sincerest apologies: I thought if I provided the copyright information it would be alright. Thanks for taking the necessary action, and I believe even just the chorus would reveal the sheer horror of it! My apologies again.

Ian.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Scarily, though, all the crappy choruses and horrible hymns of the 60s and 70s are what people are requesting us to sing at their weddings now, because the couple remember them from their school and sunday-school days and get all nostalgic. I suspect in many cases they are the only Christian songs and hymns they know, as well. Maybe church choirmasters and organists ought to attend these bridal fayres and play a selection of alternatives to show them what other music is available!
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
<snip>
Not sure about Redman, but his apparent successor (Redman is already dated for the teenage worship-song-fans, there is a lot of fashion in this) Pete Hughes writes singably, as does (when he wants to) Stuart Townend.

I would go so far as to say that Kendrick and Townend sometimes even write hymns. One or two of which will survive.

But they also write other sorts of songs that aren't intended to be congregational hymns at all. Perhaps the real culprits are the people who choose inappropriate songs for churches, not those who write them.

Pendatic point: Tim Hughes, not Pete Hughes. Pete is his preacher brother.
 
Posted by CaroB (# 4942) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Pendatic point: Tim Hughes, not Pete Hughes. Pete is his preacher brother.

Bit of a tangent, but is Pete younger?
Is he an ordained minister or just a 'freelance' preacher, as it were?

Sorry about that, back to the discussion...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
(However the popularity of 'Shine Jesus Shine' is that it is more in hymn format and possible to sing as a congregation.)

Have you ever hear that song played on an organ?
Often. Often. Often.

As there is a move foot to use Songs of Fellowship as our church hymnbook, this sort of thing seems likely to get more common.
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
(However the popularity of 'Shine Jesus Shine' is that it is more in hymn format and possible to sing as a congregation.)

Have you ever hear that song played on an organ?
Often. Often. Often.

As there is a move foot to use Songs of Fellowship as our church hymnbook, this sort of thing seems likely to get more common.

You poor soul.
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Scarily, though, all the crappy choruses and horrible hymns of the 60s and 70s are what people are requesting us to sing at their weddings now, because the couple remember them from their school and sunday-school days and get all nostalgic. I suspect in many cases they are the only Christian songs and hymns they know, as well. Maybe church choirmasters and organists ought to attend these bridal fayres and play a selection of alternatives to show them what other music is available!

As a good Vicar's Daughter™ I used to be called on to play the tunes on our piano for non-churchy wedding couples. By careful process of elimination, the top hymns that most couples knew at least five of were

Praise My Soul, The King of Heaven
The Lord's My Shepherd
Anything to Slane (Lord of all Hopefulness/Be thou my vision)
O Jesus I have promised (new tune) [Roll Eyes]
Crimond
Love Divine (because they'd sang it at other weddings, usually to Blaenwern)
Colours of Day [Projectile]
Bind us together [Mad]
Amazing Grace

Hardly a startling choice and reflecting a nasty dependence on 'Come and Praise' at the local Schools.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Morning has Broken, All things Bright and Beautiful, Lord of the Dance, Cross over the Road, as well, Ferijen?
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
'Cross Over the Road.' Wasn't that the one with the alt words about a squished doggie? [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sauerkraut:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
(However the popularity of 'Shine Jesus Shine' is that it is more in hymn format and possible to sing as a congregation.)

Have you ever hear that song played on an organ?
Often. Often. Often.

As there is a move foot to use Songs of Fellowship as our church hymnbook, this sort of thing seems likely to get more common.

You poor soul.
If its the complete songs of fellowship (there's now a 3rd volume out which I haven't got yet) it could be a lot worse. But then it will always come down to who picks the songs.

My home church had Songs of Fellowship 1 & 2 (and an OHP for extras). Unfortunately we were one of only about two churches in the circuit who had this and a band, so all the local preachers took the opportunity to pick their favourite songs. Which usually meant "Come on and Celebrate", "Shine Jesus Shine" and "I am a new Creation."
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding. [Two face]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
If its the complete songs of fellowship (there's now a 3rd volume out which I haven't got yet) it could be a lot worse. But then it will always come down to who picks the songs.

The trouble is that, unlike Mission Praise which we already use, Songs of Fellowship has a very poor selection of the 18th & 19th century hymns. Which we like singing at our church. (Though I sometimes wonder if our new vicar does)

quote:

My home church had Songs of Fellowship 1 & 2 (and an OHP for extras). Unfortunately we were one of only about two churches in the circuit who had this and a band, so all the local preachers took the opportunity to pick their favourite songs. Which usually meant "Come on and Celebrate", "Shine Jesus Shine" and "I am a new Creation."

I actually quite like "Shine Jesus Shine". Sorry. Though the implied 1980s-style restorationism gets irritating.

"I am a new Creation" is sort of jolly and perhaps suitable for occasinal use.

"Come on and Celebrate" is a tedious dirge which is only ever sung by bored "worship teams" making futile attempts to recover the thrills of their teenage years.

Karaoke church. [Projectile]
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
I can accept that some people do in fact like Shine Jesus Shine.

However, "I am a new creation"??? Maybe its because it brings back memeories of school christian union hearing it played on a yamaha keyboard (one of those with half sized keys and a hundred, count them, one hundred voices and rythmns) with an automatic backing track provided.

<shudder>

So glad they invented YFriday up our way. Raised the standard through the whole region.
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
At Christmas time, our worship team did a sort of variant on "O Come All Ye Faithful." Nice enough Christmas hymn. What bugged me was that the worship team ignored the verses and simply repeated the chorus . . . adding New Words!

So it went like this:

quote:

O come let us adore him,
O come let us adore him,
O come let us adore him,
Chri-ist the Lord.

And then it continued:

quote:

For he alone is worthy,
For he alone is worthy,
For he alone is worthy,
Chri-ist the Lord.

We'll give him all the glory,
We'll give him all the glory,
We'll give him all the glory,
Chri-ist the Lord.

There may have been a couple more choruses of New Words, too. But was there any compelling reason to leave out all the verses of a marvelous old hymn and turn it into Yet Another Repetative Praise Chorus? I suppose the argument is that the repetition and simple language allow us to enter in to worship better. Lame. I don't want my classics frelled with.
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
Those words are not 'new' Sherrif Pony - I recall singing that version in a church about 20 years ago. I try to think of it as a different song, rather than ruining an old one, then it sems much better (to me anyway).
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Those words are not 'new' Sherrif Pony - I recall singing that version in a church about 20 years ago.

Well, in the grand scheme of things, that's last week! [Big Grin]

Ah, I'm just a curmudgeon. The hymn without the verses and reduced to a praise chorus seemed just trite and forced.
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:

Any congregation is capable of singing four part harmonies (just get the Wild Goose people in for a Big Sing and you'll see what I mean). We deserve better than anodyne, poppy crap which appeals only to the banal sensibilities of middle aged clergy who think they can fill pews by forcing people to sing second-rate imitations of tenth rate genres. We are meant to worshipping Almighty God, not drowning in drivel. [/QB]

I think I'm with Ken on this one although I agree that if you are able to get in appropriately trained people as you describe congregations can sing much better than many might suppose.
However, you need to bear in mind the type of churches that use Redmondesque songs. It's all about emotion, eeeemotion, people in those churches, leastways the ones I experienced, are more interested in a nice easy tune that allows them to sing whilst freeing as much of their mental capacity up to express eeeeeeemotion. They ain't interested in rounds, descants and all that stuff, to put it bluntly.
 
Posted by anglicanrascal (# 3412) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
"I am a new Creation" is sort of jolly and perhaps suitable for occasinal use.

Someone who was being baptized at the same service as me chose this hymn. I hadn't heard it before and thought it was jolly marvellous - though I haven't heard it sung in church since, either!

It was quite a contrast to "Alleluia, Sing to Jesus", which I chose.

Pax,
ar
 
Posted by metters77 (# 2495) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sheriff Pony:
Lame. I don't want my classics frelled with.

Me neither, Sheriff Pony. I was at a service the other week when the organist launched into "Onward Christian Soldiers." Half the congregation started singing the words they knew, and the other half started singing the words as printed in the service sheet. And it sounded very peculiar, as hymns are wont to do when half the congregation are belting out "Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war," and the other half are limping through "Onward Christian Pilgrims, Christ will be our light; see, the heav'nly vision breaks upon our sight!" and other variations on a deeply feeble theme.

And, frankly, I'm outraged at the reason Kevin Mayhew gave for butchering this and some other well-loved classics - basically, because some people have used metaphors of spiritual warfare as an excuse to start wars in the name of Christianity, the rest of us obviously can't be trusted not to go out and thump someone after singing "Onward Christian Soldiers." [Roll Eyes]

However, I know the font Hymns Old and New was printed in, and I shall commit my first (and hopefully only) act of vandalism on a book - I shall print out the proper words and stick them over the top. [Snigger]

Deborah
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Apart from it must verge on sacrilege to tamper with such a classic as Adeste Fideles, I have a strong sense that writing new words to hymns is highly illegal (at least, if they are under copyright.) Somehow, even though I loathe hymns that are on 'war' and 'soldier' themes, I think it is odd to tamper with those that are well-known.

During the 1960s & 70s, some groups (especially university locations and 'youth culture' sub-parishes) seemed to make a hobby of composing their own lyrics - usually not for well-known hymns, but for popular songs. Thus altered, the songs became 'suitable for worship' (at least in the eyes of the 'lyricist.') Invariably (and nuns were notorious for this, I might add) the entire result was that a decent or quite good popular song was ruined by being transformed into a parody of itself.

I still recall when a Sister-friend of mine slaughtered Bob Dylan's "Blowing in the Wind," with verses such as "How many times must their blood be shed, before they know that it's Mine?" The refrain was: "The answer, my friend, is in the hearts of men, the answer is living in all men." (I'll not even expound on what horrid theology that is.)
 
Posted by metters77 (# 2495) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Apart from it must verge on sacrilege to tamper with such a classic as Adeste Fideles, I have a strong sense that writing new words to hymns is highly illegal (at least, if they are under copyright.) Somehow, even though I loathe hymns that are on 'war' and 'soldier' themes, I think it is odd to tamper with those that are well-known.

"Onward..." is out of copyright, and the publishers commissioned entirely new words to the same tune, which, I suppose, they are perfectly entitled to do. And, it being their hymnbook, Kevin Mayhew Ltd are entitled to put whatever they please in it. But if the words of such classics as "Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus" and "God is Our Strength From Days of Old" offend their delicate sensibilities, why not just leave them out?

I shall buy a copy of Hymns Ancient And Modern - bet they don't have any truck with such nonsense...

Deborah
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
They explain their reasoning in the introduction. The problem was that the tunes were such damned good ones, they felt it was an opportunity to commission new words to be written for them, reminiscient of the original hymns.

So "Onward Christian Soldiers" are not the "real" words - they are the words of the hymn usually attached to that tune. "Onward Christian Pilgrim" is offered as an alternative to keep the tune alive. Nothing stops you using the old words.

Dyfrig - missed your wonderful December comment on Matt Redman. Nearly made me fall of me chair!
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Eeeemotin, eh? Well, what puzzles me most is that the places that use choruses often preach stuff like, "There were three cats walking along a wall: the one at the front was called Facts, the one in the middle was called Faith, and the one at the back was called Feelings. So long as Faith kept looking at Facts* he was safe, but as soon as he turned around and looked at Feelings, he fell off the wall."

* or, presumably, Facts's arse.

And no, I'm not making that one up.

There's plenty of spine tingling emotion about when you're listening to a Welsh chapel singing its heart out in four part harmonies, or when you hear the descant in the final verse of "O Come All Ye Faithful".
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Dyfrig - stobbit! I'm pissing meself!

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Eeeemotin, eh? Well, what puzzles me most is that the places that use choruses often preach stuff like, "There were three cats walking along a wall: the one at the front was called Facts, the one in the middle was called Faith, and the one at the back was called Feelings. So long as Faith kept looking at Facts* he was safe, but as soon as he turned around and looked at Feelings, he fell off the wall."

* or, presumably, Facts's arse.

And no, I'm not making that one up.


I've heard this also. In my opinion the reason why that sort of stuff gets said in such churches is precisely because of the attempt to eeeeemotionalise the worship.. it's an attempt at counterbalance.

But yeah - 'Facts' isn't necessarily the 'bottom line' in such churches.

quote:

There's plenty of spine tingling emotion about when you're listening to a Welsh chapel singing its heart out in four part harmonies, or when you hear the descant in the final verse of "O Come All Ye Faithful".

Indeed there is for those of us who have been fortunate enough to get a lot of singing practise in. For others, just trying to sing the bloomin' harmony is a pain in the arse and a distraction from their 'spiritual time' or whatever such a thing is called this month.


(could a kindly host unbold my post? I can't seem to be able to do so)
[always willing to oblige, Sir George - though whether or not you consider it 'kindly' is up to you!
Edited to fix unwanted 'bolding']

[ 23. January 2004, 12:01: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by bishops finger (# 5430) on :
 
Being a newbie round here, I haven't had the time to read all umpteen pages of this thread, but....

They didn't all qualify for the title of 'Crappy Choruses and Horrible Hymns', but does anyone still use any of the items from 'Psalm Praise', a collection of new(ish) metrical versions of psalms and canticles published (if I remember rightly) in the mid-1970s? One or two have become classics (e.g. 'Tell out, my soul' for the Magnificat), and there were a few others which I recall fondly - 'Faithful vigil ended' for the Nunc Dimittis and a version of Psalm 121 ('I lift my eyes to the quiet hills') with a most beautiful and haunting tune.

Ring any bells?

Ian.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Is 'Faithful vigil ended' the one about

"Master, grant your servant
His discharge in peace"

Sorry, can't imagine singing that without smirking.
 
Posted by bishops finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thanks, Gill! Yes, that's the one.....and now I won't be able to sing it without smirking either!

Ian.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
...I have a strong sense that writing new words to hymns is highly illegal (at least, if they are under copyright.) ...

IANAL, and IANA copyright L in particular. But I do hang out with people who're up on intellectual property issues.

Writing new words is not illegal in US or Canada. Freedom of expression protects that. Now, what you do after that can get you into a variety of issues. Publishing those words (and publishing is a rather wide term in law) generally requires permission. Singing them is a non-issue -- provided you have appropriate public performance licenses for the tune. Getting other people to sing them is likely to involve publishing, again, a tricky item.

So, Newman's Own, you're quite correct that they were in violation of rights all over the place. But it wasn't the writing that was (in law) a crime.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Gill H wrote:
quote:
"Master, grant your servant
His discharge in peace"

With the help of a ministering angel and a course of anitobiotics?

J
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Miffy:
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding. [Two face]

As is Graham Kendrick's (I think) 'Jesus Stand Among Us'
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Miffy:
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding. [Two face]

As is Graham Kendrick's (I think) 'Jesus Stand Among Us'
Oh dear I like that one (Jesus stand among us) so what have I missed? - why is it so awful and in particular unsuitable for a wedding?

Jesus stand among us
at the meeting of our lives
be the sweet agreement
at the meeting of our eyes

Oh Jesus we love you
and so we gather here
Join our hearts in unity
and take away our fear

(I won't quote verse 2 in case I get accused of copyright infringement)
 
Posted by Bishop Joe (# 527) on :
 
" [Roll Eyes]

Lord, You Give the Great Commission."

I know a lot of people love it, but it's guaranteed to lower my diastolic to an unsafe level and induce hypoglycemia.

Usually used as the closing hymn wherever I've worshiped, too.

We need a Smilie that's holding its nose.
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:


However, "I am a new creation"???

I am a new creation
No more in condemnation.
Make a little birdhouse in your soul.


In a similar vein to:

Give thanks with a greatful heart.
Go West, life is peaceful there.


[ 05. February 2004, 03:29: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw-Dwarf ]
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Miffy:
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding. [Two face]

As is Graham Kendrick's (I think) 'Jesus Stand Among Us'
Oh dear I like that one (Jesus stand among us) so what have I missed? - why is it so awful and in particular unsuitable for a wedding?

Jesus stand among us
at the meeting of our lives
be the sweet agreement
at the meeting of our eyes

Oh Jesus we love you
and so we gather here
Join our hearts in unity
and take away our fear

(I won't quote verse 2 in case I get accused of copyright infringement)

Simple enough. It's awful because of the very high [Projectile] factor.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
I got into conversation with A Certain Well Known writer of rather hymn-like choruses recently.

I asked him about the way that choruses are written.

He said that usually it is the musicians in the worship teams who write the choruses. They come up with a tune and they take some words from scripture or put some words together to go with it.

I think that could explain a lot.
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
Rather like Frs Ted and Dougals' method for composing 'My Lovely Horse' then.
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
For all I know, the priest (40 years ago) whom I knew who got a group of children to record some 'special songs for children' may have composed them himself, but one (which I mercifully never heard elsewhere) sticks in my mind. There were various verses, all repetitive as with the first, and the tune was dreadful.

Poor Mary stood weeping, weeping, weeping,
Poor Mary stood weeping, on a dark weary day.

Oh, Mary, what are you weeping for? (etc.)

I'm weeping for my Jesus (etc.)

What happened to your Jesus? (etc.)

They crucified my Jesus.

What happened to his body?

They put it in a grave.

It ended with,
Till he rises on Easter morning, Easter morning, Easter morning,
Till he rises on Easter morning, on a bright, sunny day.

One wonders how Mary had known that on Good Friday.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
That sounds very like a playground song I vaguely remember 'Poor Jenny is a-weeping'. One of those 'join hands and walk round' type songs. I suspect someone just Christianised the words.
 
Posted by Padingtun Bear (# 3935) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
[QB] I am a new creation
No more in condemnation.
Make a little birdhouse in your soul.

Hooray, another reason to persuade our minister not to use it [Big Grin]

[/tangent]

I notice there have been a few previous comments on 'indefinable' theology. Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...


Any connection at all?
And apologies if this has come up already (do censure me)

...and in his presence,
our problems disappear.


They what!?
[Song first line: Jesus, we celebrate your victory. Which I don't object to per se as it's worth doing, but I would rather choose my own expression of celebration, thankyou.]

[/tangent over]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
That sounds very like a playground song I vaguely remember 'Poor Jenny is a-weeping'. One of those 'join hands and walk round' type songs. I suspect someone just Christianised the words.

That's what I thought.

In fact I might even remember it sung with "Mary" in it.

For all I know it might be the last gasp of some piece of mediaeval mummery. Where are Iona and Peter Opie when you need them?
 
Posted by Erina (# 5306) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Padingtun Bear:
Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...


Any connection at all?

Well, I've never heard that song, but if those are the first two lines, it sounds suspiciously like a slightly messed-up version of Psalm 48, verse 1:
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, in the city of our God, His holy mountain.
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
That sounds very like a playground song I vaguely remember 'Poor Jenny is a-weeping'. One of those 'join hands and walk round' type songs. I suspect someone just Christianised the words.

That's what I thought.

In fact I might even remember it sung with "Mary" in it.

For all I know it might be the last gasp of some piece of mediaeval mummery. Where are Iona and Peter Opie when you need them?

Ken it seems you are right from this link (mind you, like you I would find the references more authentic if they were from Iona and Peter Opie!)
 
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :
 
Paddington :
quote:
Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...

Any connection at all?

We always sang "In the City....etc" I didn't know that the "In" wasn't there until I looked it up in my CCAHHR songbook. It is, I believe, as Erina suggested, a paraphrase of Psalm 48.
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The inexcusable "in His presence our problems disappear" bullshit has been discussed before.

As for the "Great is the Lord.... The city of our God..." shite, why should you expect any connection between individual charismatic clichés strung together to a tune that makes Radiohead sound cheerful?
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Sheriff Pony said
quote:
When the music fades
and all is stripped away
and I simply come,
longing just to bring
something that's of worth
that will bless Your heart.[1]

I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You have required.[2]
You search much deeper within
through the way things appear[3]
You're looking into my heart.

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about You.
It's all about You, Jesus.
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,[4]
when it's all about You,
it's all about You, Jesus.

---------
[1] First thing that gets me is the idea that I'm going to "bless Jesus' heart." It's theologically questionable, and it's overly precious. So I'm already cringing from the start.

[2] "For a song in itself is not what you have required"? Huh? The phrasing is awkward enough, but the song is already running in circles at this point. (Which, now that I think about it, may be fitting for some forms of worship.)

[3] I'm chewing aluminum foil when we hit "You search much deeper within through the way things appear." At this point I find myself thinking "What am I singing about anyway? 'Things'?" Some precise writing please!

[4] And then we hit "the thing I've made it." Once again, we're singing about a "thing" followed by the pronoun "it," which always has me searching for an antecedent. I'm lost and confused by this point, having no idea what the subject matter of this song is.

The song seems to be a worship song about singing worship songs, with Jesus as a passive receiver of "blessing." So, in a sense, it's not so much about praise to our God than it is about navel-gazing on the part of the singer. While I would agree that self-reflection is a necessary part of coming before God, in this case it doesn't quite work for me.


This got me so hot under the collar when I read it that thought I should address the points raised.

First of all - a bit of background. The song was written by Matt Readman during the time when he was leading worship at Soul Survivor, Watford. The singing of worship songs during services had become more important than the God the worship songs were aimed at - they had become an idol - and the church eventually decided to not sing any songs at all for a while. Matt Readman wrote the song during that time, and then the church began to sing it as they worked through the issues they had.

Now, point 1: I believe we can bless God's heart - our prayers are like sweet smelling incense. If you don't like the lyric and find it precious - thats a matter of taste.

Point 2: The line "I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You have required" relates directly to the situation I described above. This situation is a common one in many Charismatic churches - people unwittingly let the singing become an idol. The line is saying "I am bringing you my worship Lord, not just a song, because its my worship you require, not pretty sounds"

Point 3:"You search much deeper within through the way things appear." Again, this line is referring to the situation described above. Worship isn't about how things look or sound, its about the attitude of our hearts, which is what God looks at.

Point 4: "I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,
when it's all about You,
it's all about You, Jesus." This is the whole point of the song, to say sorry for letting worship songs become an idol.

This song was written for a specific situation. Other churches have picked it up and used it because it has spoken directly into similar situations of their own. It has helped a lot of people come into a deeper understanding of worship, and it has certainly helped me come into a deeper realtionship with God.

I would suggest that if a worship song makes you leave a time of corporate worship - you may need to deal with an idol or two of your own! [Biased]
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Paddington :
quote:
Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...

Any connection at all?

We always sang "In the City....etc" I didn't know that the "In" wasn't there until I looked it up in my CCAHHR songbook. It is, I believe, as Erina suggested, a paraphrase of Psalm 48.
It's from a psalm (can't remember which number). Opening verse says that God is great. Next verses says that Jerusalem is a strong and holy city, the joy of the whole earth. Said chorus doesn't quite capture the point of the psalm, which is to laud Jerusalem as the place where God lives. Chorus then veers away into some non-psalmic stuff that reminds God that we want to worship him and thank him. Which is nice.
 
Posted by Padingtun Bear (# 3935) on :
 
Thanks very much for all the references to Psalm 48. Have now added in the offending/missing 'In' to the OHP, so that we make at least some sense on a Sunday morning.

Ta all, P.B.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Thanks, Padingtun - that never occurred to me.

Another classic 'don't bother engaging brain before singing' moment used to be 'When I look into your holiness'. This contained the lines:

"When I've found the joy of reaching your heart
When my will becomes enthroned in your love"

Someone once asked me what on earth the second line means. If 'enthroned' means 'put on the throne' then why would I want to put my will on the throne? (No Prince William jokes, please!)

Then we looked up a few books and discovered that the original lyric was 'enthralled'. Presumably not so much in the sense of 'thrilled' but in the literal sense of 'held captive'.

As for the 'and in His presence our problems disappear' debate, I've always understood this as 'when we fix our attention on God, we take our attention away from our problems so things can assume their proper perspective'. That doesn't scan so well, however. I've never been in the sort of church which assumes Christians don't have problems, so it's never grated on me. But I can understand that a 'living in victory' type church would make this line hard to stomach.

My church changed the line to 'our darkness disappears' which might be a bit better (but not much). And might cause you problems if you liked a certain band with a long-haired falsetto screamer. (Wanders off singing

"Great is the darkness, their singer is fab
I like their guitarist as well ..")
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The problem with that interpretation of That Line is it isn't any more true than the face value interpretation.

Nor, with respect, is your church's altered version.

Unfortunately "In His presence, our problems remain exactly the same" doesn't fit too well either. The obvious solution (one which has done me good service for some years) is not to sing the wretched thing at all. [Razz]
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
In his presence, our problems seem so clear...less near...stay right here...
[Hot and Hormonal]

I don't think my gifting lies in the area of songwriting, (thank goodness). [Biased]
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
Dear Phudfan,

I see you points - valid they indeed are - however much of your defence hinges on the fact that the song you refer to was written for a specific time in a specific situation. It doesn't 'translate' well.

I sang that very song a number of times at Soul Survivor. Now I don't think so much of it, although I have great respect for Matt Redman himself.

Now I find traditional hymns more helpful as a way of worshipping God. Trad church music not only has a low 'cringe' value, but draws on the very best of a tradition stretching back hundreds of years. Hymn books contain hymns with the most poetic, theologically profound, and inspiring lyrics (although 'To Thine be the Glory' turns my stomach a bit). And until pretty recently they did 'translate' well.

I don't think I'm the only person who feels genuine sadness at this rich tradition having to be cast aside to keep up with society's chasing after the next tasteless fad. Redman is no substitute for Wesley.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Sir George - thanks for your comments. I enjoy and appreciate a lot of worship music, and that includes some old hymns as well as some very modern songs. I lead worship at church, and although we mainly sing modern worship songs, I often use older hymns as well - and they can be incredibly powerful. "When I survey" is one of my all time favourites - from any era.

My personal opinion is that there was some rubbish written in the past, just as there is some rubbish written now. There have also been some beauties written in the past, just as there are some wonderful songs written now. Often, I think, it comes down to personal taste and preference - if we like the tune, style etc.

I appreciate that the words of some songs can sometimes just be plain wrong/heretical - and if that is the case, then I'm not sure the song should be sung. Often though, even this isn't clear cut - as what one person finds heretical, another finds incredibly useful and powerful - for example "When the music fades".

The more different styles of worship, and worship song, the better, is what I say. I quite often choose to use songs that I don't really 'like' - because I know that they help other people to worship God. There are plenty of songs that I don't like - and some that I even think are a bit dubious - but I would never walk out of a service because we started singing one of them. For me, that is making worship an idol - which is what I was trying to say in my last post.
 
Posted by chickpea (# 4554) on :
 
The solution to the 'our problems disappear' line that I have heard is 'our purpose is made clear'. Not sure that my friends who are about to leave Uni and don't know what to do with their lives would appriciate it though!!

A song mentioned on the first page of this thread reminded me of the 'Psalty the Singing Songbook' tapes from my earlier years. Instead of opening Psalty to find a song (which might have been difficult, as he could talk and walk) the kids had to 'think happy thoughts about Jesus'..... Anybody else out there subjected to listening to these?!! (Think it warped my mind, cos I can still remember all the lyrics!!)
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
Hi Phudfan,

Well, music does have to communicate - be a channel, as it were, of worship and teaching - it does need to be relevant to the people on the 'end' of it. And this is the problem. Hymns, to most people are an anachronism. Which means that in reality they have to give way to the modern stuff.

I agree with you that plenty of tripe has been written down the years. I own a hymn book from 1870 and it's full of songs no trad church would sing now - songs full of the drippiest Victorian sentimentality, and a good dose of jingoistic imperialism.

The thing is that over the years the bad stuff has been weeded out. The good stuff remains. To me, the average hymn is a better work of art and worship. None of this is to argue that traditional forms of music aren't subject to the very same snares and pitfalls that choruses are. On Sunday I went to an excellent choral evensong, and the music - which was brilliant - did have a sense of idolatry about it!

We desparately need people to write new settings to some of those old hymns - and do them well. Sadly such people are few and far between.

(Another thought is that our society is a good deal less musical than it was one hundred years ago - people in general don't sing - which makes me wonder if congregational singing should be a part of a church service at all now).
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
I agree with you Sir George when you say that the average Hymn is probably a better work of art than the average chorus, but I think the view that it is also a better form of worship is a bit more subjective (I hope I'm not misinterprteing you here).

I think people find it easier, and I'm generalising here, to worship through things that are contemporary to their culture. That is why I think a lot of people find it easier to worship using modern songs rather than the old hymns. I don't think this makes the modern songs better - just more effective in general. I realise this isn't always the case - people have different tastes after all.

I agree that there are a lot of older songs that, with a bit of imagination, could be a rich source of truth and light to this generation. I may try and take up that challenge myself (and probably fail miserably!)
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Chickpea, you're giving me Psalty flashbacks!

"Weeee're Melody and Harmony
and Harmony and Melody
And everything we say and do
Is sweet just like our songs"

"Roses are red, violets are blue
Until I met Psalty I was blue too"

(Someone tell me what Psaltina's accent is supposed to be, please!)

But the worst has to be the 'talky bit' in the middle of 'I love you Lord' (or 'Lerd' as they insist on singing).

"Lerd, once in the middle of a game my baseball got lost in the weeds. I looked all through those weeds. Then I prayed. And when I opened my eyes, there was my baseball right at my feet! I love you, Lerd."

Sorry, even for a fluffy charismatic like me, that one's hard to stomach.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
i avoided Psalty the singing Song Book until a youth event we put on a few months ago. For this we had to rig tent in our church which took seveal hours longer than we were expecting. To pass the time we put on some music. Unfortunately no one had brought any and there was only one tape in the church .......

<shudder>
 
Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Satan's very own way of doing kids' work.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Another thought is that our society is a good deal less musical than it was one hundred years ago

I don't know about a hundred years, but people of my generation - I'm in my 40s - are much more likely to be able to play an instrument or read music than people of my parent's generation. Rock and roll changed a lot! (As did folk, and punk, and the Atari computer, and cheap sampling & mixing software)

quote:
- people in general don't sing - which makes me wonder if congregational singing should be a part of a church service at all now).
People in general don't sing well, but I doubt if they ever have. That's not what congregational singing is about.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
When a church I once attended was going to be on the wireless, it was taught to sing "And in his presence, there's power to persevere".
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

For all I know it might be the last gasp of some piece of mediaeval mummery. Where are Iona and Peter Opie when you need them?

Ken it seems you are right from this link (mind you, like you I would find the references more authentic if they were from Iona and Peter Opie!)

And lo, here are the Opies, or at least their views:

'It is extraordinary how partisan people can be over whether the heroine should be 'poor Jenny' or 'poor Mary', (especially if they are determined that she is 'really' Joanna of Castile). All we can say is that, as far as records go, the score stands at 55 for Poor Mary (23 pre ww1), 33 for Poor Jenny (five pre ww1) and 13 for Poor Sally (six pre ww1) with a few poor Ellens, Nellies and Sarahs. The tendency is for Londoners to sing about Jenny, while in the north and west of England, as also in Australia and Canada, 'Mary' is favoured."

I and P Opie, The Singing Game, Chapter 14.

They go on to say that the piece, whilst known in many versions collected late 19th century in the great round of folk-song collecting, is not known before 1880. So, not mediaeval Ken, but certainly very widely known. At my (Nottinghamshire) primary school in the 1970s it was Poor Mary.

Your friendly Opie resource is happy to help. [Big Grin]

(edited to fix Bold)
[Edited by me in an attempt to fix UBB - hope it's now right! TK]

[ 03. March 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by phudfan:
This got me so hot under the collar . . .

One man's trash . . . [Biased]
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by phudfan:
I agree with you Sir George when you say that the average Hymn is probably a better work of art than the average chorus, but I think the view that it is also a better form of worship is a bit more subjective (I hope I'm not misinterprteing you here).

Yeah - art 'in' worship would have been better. I was careless in my use of words. Apologies!
 
Posted by Sir George Grey (# 2643) on :
 
Ken,

Now if one wants music one can put on a CD. A hundred years ago one had to play a musical instrument or sing.

A couple of years back I went to a production of 'The Mikado' at the Savoy, no less. The singers, even there, really battled with the tunes and I suspect they were written in a time when really good singers were easier to come by.

And I do think that most people can sing if they have the confidence to.

Compare non-work pursuits (including church) and consider how many of those pursuits involve singing, and how many people are involved in those pursuits compared with forty years ago. What conclusion would you draw?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Compare non-work pursuits (including church) and consider how many of those pursuits involve singing, and how many people are involved in those pursuits compared with forty years ago. What conclusion would you draw?

Apart from church, what other non-work pursuits involving singing have gone out of fashion?

It was common, a cliche, for people of my age to be, or try to be "in a band" when we were in our teens and twenties. That was almost unknown in my parents generation, excpet for professional musicians.

My daughter's school has much, much, more performance on stage than mine did. And more of it is music and less of it is acting.

And no-one mention Karaoke.
 
Posted by Adamski (# 3396) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
I suspect they were written in a time when really good singers were easier to come by.

To say there were more "good singers" somewhere back in history is quite opinionated. The technique most modern professional singers use is very different to their counterparts a century ago because of the amplification available today. If everyone was taught to sing "properly" by fully using their diaphragm we wouldn't have the vast variety of singers we have today. What is probably most difficult for those singing some of the more traditional pieces is that a more advanced breathing technique is required than that of most modern popular music. Similarly, though, those who are accustomed to singing with the diaphragm all of the time find it difficult to sing with the more gentle style.
 
Posted by Kontakion (# 473) on :
 
As far as choral singing is concerned, more good singers seem keen to join chamber choirs and choral societies than are willing to sing in church choirs. Which is a shame, because then you are restricting music which was composed to be sung in church as part of the liturgy to concert items. And asking people to pay £10 a head to come and listen to them as a concert, rather than to worship through them. If life weren't so busy, I'd like to see these concert singers choose to sing the same music in church choirs as well. Some church choirs seem only to have the choice of the poorer singers because the good singers are so busy singing elsewhere. (Not that I believe the poorer singers should be denied a place in the church choir - heavens, I'm one myself - but that their contribution would be enhanced and they would learn more with the full support of the good singers as well.) It does seem strange when you go to some churches and discover that the best singers are in the congregation!
 
Posted by testbear (# 4602) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:


However, "I am a new creation"???

I am a new creation
No more in condemnation.
Make a little birdhouse in your soul.


In a similar vein to:

Give thanks with a greatful heart.
Go West, life is peaceful there.

And, indeed:

"Open the eyes of my heart Lord, open the eyes of my heart,
I want to see you, I want to see you..."

At which point I have to bite my hands not to sing:

"But I stiiiiil haven't fouuuuuund what I'm looking for!!"
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Never thought of that one, testbear. It would actually fit quite well with the song. I dare you to do it! [Devil]
 
Posted by Choristerrr (# 473) on :
 
If the link to this has already been given out, please ignore me (it's the first time I've seen it): if you don't like books of crappy choruses you can zap them) - here
 
Posted by Padingtun Bear (# 3935) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by testbear:
indeed:

"Open the eyes of my heart Lord, open the eyes of my heart,
I want to see you, I want to see you..."

At which point I have to bite my hands not to sing:

"But I stiiiiil haven't fouuuuuund what I'm looking for!!"

Hooray, hooray, it's not just me! [Yipee] I get so laughed at at music group practice for that one. Have been tempted to sing the original in an alt. service, though.

P. B.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Spotted that one a couple of years ago! Still love the song though.

In fact, probably playing it on Sunday. And I've even heard Tim Hughes confess that its his "lazy" opening to a set of worship songs.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Last week I went to an informal morning worship service and we sang the worship song that fits to the tune of "Go West!" (Discussed some months ago on this very thread). I was grinning so much that I could have passed for a member of the Spring Harvest Crowd.
[Killing me] J
 
Posted by Choristerrr (# 473) on :
 
I am going to find it very difficult to ever sing 'Shine, Jesus, Shine' again(not that I have to often) with a straight face, after reading on the Worship songs you'd like to ban thread that it's sometimes referred to as:

Shite Jesus Shite [Eek!]
 
Posted by Newman's Own+ (# 420) on :
 
Yet another horrible hymn came to my mind this week, though I heard it only a few times (during my 1970s charismatic days). The tune, which always seemed not only dreadful but a poor fit for the words, is one of the worst. I cannot recall the entire verse, but it began with:

Here comes Jesus.
See him walking on the water.
He lifts me up, and he helps me to stand.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Redman is no substitute for Wesley.

But is an improvment, IMO, on Cecil Frances Alexander.

Any Frederick Harman Kaan fans out there? In the Canadian Union (Red) Hymn Book of the 1970's, he had a whole bunch of stuff. I've never heard a one of them sung.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Mixed bag, Henry, mixed bag. Some are good, some are dire. Liberals and Charismatics both seem to suffer from hymnwriters who wouldn't know poetry or a good tune if it slapped them with a wet fish.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
It's a mystery

Why is there such a dearth of decent modern hymns/worship songs. I mean we've had some brilliant secular song writers (discounting whoever wrote Toya's 'hit') and lots of decent poets over the past three decades so why are modern hymns so dire? (or is simply that I'm not being exposed to any.)

J [Frown]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
There are, but they don't get published because they aren't "sound" enough.

Garth Hewitt (yes, I know, but this stuff was actually quite good) wrote a songbook "Walk the Talk" - ooh, must be twelve or thirteen years ago. Seen neither hide nor hair of it since.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I, er, sorry Karl, um, er, I really quite like some of Stuart Townend's songs. And he's pretty "sound". I like the hymnlike ones more than the man-with-a-guitar-like ones.
 
Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I, er, sorry Karl, um, er, I really quite like some of Stuart Townend's songs. And he's pretty "sound". I like the hymnlike ones more than the man-with-a-guitar-like ones.

I love those too. Although he does have a tendency to try and fit the whole of salvation history into one song, so you can't sing more than one of them in a service.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I, er, sorry Karl, um, er, I really quite like some of Stuart Townend's songs. And he's pretty "sound". I like the hymnlike ones more than the man-with-a-guitar-like ones.

I didn't say they were all like that. Not that I'm into Stuart Townend either.
 
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I, er, sorry Karl, um, er, I really quite like some of Stuart Townend's songs. And he's pretty "sound". I like the hymnlike ones more than the man-with-a-guitar-like ones.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love those too. Although he does have a tendency to try and fit the whole of salvation history into one song, so you can't sing more than one of them in a service.

[Killing me] [Killing me] Spot-on Lep!
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Apart from feeling everyone's often a bit hard on the modern writers, comparing a Soul Survivor/Vineyard song to a wesley hymn doesn't seem like comparing like to like, there's something else that often seems to be forgotten.

A lot of these song writers are really young still. I think Redman may have hit his thirties now, but Tim Hughes, Martin Layzell are all in their mid twenties. They're still marturing as song writers. Also, the whole movement in britain is still a young-ish movement.

Personally I like a lot of what's around at the moment, but I also expect that what will come next will be even better.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
GDS, I agree with you completely. I think there is some fantastic stuff being written and sung right now.
Musical taste can sometimes mean that we dismiss something simply because we don't like the style.

I have to hold my hands up and admit, given the choice of a 'man with a guitar' or a big pipe organ, I'd go for the guitar everytime and three times on sunday! [Angel]

This doesn't mean that I think all worship that involves a pipe organ is rubbish and of no value. Quite the opposite, if its worshipping God, then I will support it with my whole being.

There are some superb worship songs that have been written over the past few years, and that is a fact. If you don't agree, then its either because you haven't heard them, or simply because you don't like the style. Sorry to be so blunt but it annoys me when people dismiss modern stuff simply cause its modern.
I wholeheartedly support you in your use of hymns, gregorian chants, taize, spoken liturgy, psalms, AND action songs. All I ask for is that you offer me that same respect in return.
 
Posted by Purple Sparkler (# 5661) on :
 
Right, I shall use the privelege of being a newbie to get away with probably repeating a lot of stuff that's been said before.
At my last two churches, I've sung in the choir which means lots of weddings. I have promised myself that if I ever get married, my wedding hymns will not include any of the following very popular (and dull, growing to abysmal) choices:
'All things bright and beautiful'; 'give me oil in my lamp'; 'Jerusalem'(what this was doing at several weddings is beyond me).
I also have an enduring loathing of 'One more step along the world I go' (which most of the Christians I know like), having had to sing it at school. I still cringe at the memory of a parish eucharist that included 'If I were a butterfly'- and wasn't an all-age service either. And don't even get me STARTED on 'Autumn Days':
'Autumn Days when the grass is jewelled,
and the silk inside a chestnut shell
Jet-planes meeting in the air to be refuelled
all the things I love so well...'

I'll stop there because my teeth are on edge even now. For example- when was the last time YOU heard of planes refuelling in mid-flight from each other? Exactly. There is not one single mention of anything resembling Christianity in the whole thing, either- the closest you get is 'to say a great big thankyou'- but it never mentions to who.
But the newest entry in my list of disliked hymns is one by the same woman who wrote 'all things bright and beautiful' (who has a LOT to answer for), called 'daisies are our silver'- I can't remember all the lyrics, but it's dire.
Right, that's my two pennorth. I'll stop.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Purple Sparkler [Overused]

I believe military jets meet in the air to be refuelled, but what on earth its doing in a hymn book I've no idea.
 
Posted by Ferinjen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Purple Sparkler [Overused]

I believe military jets meet in the air to be refuelled, but what on earth its doing in a hymn book I've no idea.

Except it isn't in a hymn book, it is in Come and Praise which is designed to be a wishy-washy collection of generic 'worship' music (definitely not hymns), including a number of songs suitable for multi-cultural schools (ie with no references to Jesus, just to a generic 'God' or 'Lord'). It doesn't stop it being crap, it just explains the reasoning behind it.

Autumn Days was the first 'song' I ever played on the piano in an assembly aged 9. Ferinjen starts fondly reminiscing about early music career...
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Geordie wrote:
quote:
Apart from feeling everyone's often a bit hard on the modern writers, comparing a Soul Survivor/Vineyard song to a wesley hymn doesn't seem like comparing like to like, there's something else that often seems to be forgotten.

A lot of these song writers are really young still. I think Redman may have hit his thirties now, but Tim Hughes, Martin Layzell are all in their mid twenties. They're still marturing as song writers. Also, the whole movement in britain is still a young-ish movement

I have to admit, i have never heard these guys. I guess I just reckon that has the devil appears to have all the best modern tunes, I stick with the tried and tested in hymns and get my 'modernity kicks' from secular sources. Maybe I don't get out enough.

Phudd: action songs...for kids.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Purple Sparkler - you must be thinking of the late great Mrs. Cecil Frances Alexander (on whom be peace).....

'Daisies are our silver,
Buttercups our gold:
These are all the treasure,
We can have or hold.'

...and several other verses in like vein.

Heaven help me, I remember singing this at Sunday School about a century ago.....

Ian J.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Apart from feeling everyone's often a bit hard on the modern writers, comparing a Soul Survivor/Vineyard song to a wesley hymn doesn't seem like comparing like to like, there's something else that often seems to be forgotten.

A lot of these song writers are really young still. I think Redman may have hit his thirties now, but Tim Hughes, Martin Layzell are all in their mid twenties. They're still marturing as song writers. Also, the whole movement in britain is still a young-ish movement.

Well, why not wait until they produce some good "mature" stuff and use that? There's plenty to use in the meantime without using sub-standard "young" stuff, if that's the problem. It's hardly an excuse, anyway - Mozart was dead before he was 40.

quote:
Personally I like a lot of what's around at the moment, but I also expect that what will come next will be even better.
Hope springs eternal. It didn't happen with Graham Kendrick...

[Devil]
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
quote:
Dorothea said:
Phudd: action songs...for kids.

Bollocks. I know plenty of people who love action songs, and plenty of them are adults. If you think they're for kids, fine, but they're not JUST for kids, unless of course your above that sort of thing. I mean they're so demeaning aren't they - its like washing smelly feet. [Mad]

And, as I've already said, don't critcise modern songs if you have a very limited experience of them. Shine Jesus Shine is NOT a modern song. Its twenty bloody years old. Its ancient. As are most of the 'modern' songs criticised here.

You will nor hear me criticising hymns here - because I only sing a few of them, and not that often. Its not my place to.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Did you really just compare doing an action song to Jesus washing the disciples' feet.......?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Since when did being made to feel five years old have anything to do with worship?
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Um.... coming to Jesus as a child?
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Slight difference between coming to Jesus "as a child" and being infantilised by the forced merriment of a bunch of idiots up at the front, doncha think?
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
How do you know they're idiots?

The odd occasion I have used action songs its to make this point. Not just because I think they're "fun" or "whacky." <shudder>.

Actually, I don't like action songs, make me cringe. Unfortunately, the teens I work with seem to.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
When Jesus said we had to receive the kingdom as a little child, I have no reason to suppose he meant singing "I will build my church" doing "one potato, two potato" hand actions.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
quote:
Did you really just compare doing an action song to Jesus washing the disciples' feet.......?

Yup. In order to make a point. Its about humility in worship. We may not 'like' all the aspects of the corporate worship that we find in our churches, but, IMO, we should have the humility to be a part of it. In order to take part in the singing of a song that you consider to be for the people other than yourself, you need to humble yourself, and 'wash their feet'. If you think an action song is for kids and so not for you, IMO, you should humble yourself and wash their feet by taking part.

Personally, I think some 'action' songs are great and some not so much. I'm normally playing an instrument when we sing them, so I don't have to do the actions. Maybe this colours my perception. [Biased]
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
phudfan, from what I gather you go to a church that has abandoned most of the traditional ways of worshipping God - don't you dare lecture anyone on humble submission to forms of worship we don't like.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
You make a good point, but, and it's a big but, I differentiate between acts of worship that are not to my taste, and being asked to do something that makes me feel not humbled, but a complete twerp.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Apologies for the harshness of my previous post, phudfan. However, it does strike me as odd that many who seek to impose (and things are imposed by many a "worship-leader") practices on others have themselves abandoned previous practices on grounds no more sophisticated than that they were dull, embarrassing or "did nothing for me". If churches were really full of people submitting to forms of worship they didn't like, the CofE would be full of services complying strictly with the BCP.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
quote:
Dyfrig said:
phudfan, from what I gather you go to a church that has abandoned most of the traditional ways of worshipping God - don't you dare lecture anyone on humble submission to forms of worship we don't like.


And don't you dare judge me when you know very little about how I worship. I wasn't lecturing - I was answering the question which you asked me.
The style of worship at the church I attend is not the issue. I believe I am called to be a part of this particular church for a myriad of reasons that don't include the style of worship. If I was called to be at a church with a more 'traditional' style of worship, which has been the case in the past, then I would do that just as gladly.
I respect your right to disagree with me - I don't respect your choice to dismiss what I say because of your prejudices about me.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Dyfrig, looks like we cross-posted there. Apologies myself for the quick-tempered nature of my reply. I agree with you completely. As a worship leader myself I try to lead in a way that's humble and sensitive. I inevitably get this wrong, but I'm trying to learn.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
No worries, p - I shouldn't have gone off half cock myself.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
I feel the spirit is moving us all to join hands and sing......

"bind us together lord"

Altogether now......
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
It is entirely appropriate that I post this link into the current spirit of gooeyness and loving Christian brotherhood.

I expect Phudfan doesn't remember the Rant of the Month, but I can't help remembering with fondness http://ship-of-fools.com/Rant/Rant22.html
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
I feel the Spirit is leading me to kill you.

In Christian love, of course.

[Biased]
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
quote:
KLB said:
You make a good point, but, and it's a big but, I differentiate between acts of worship that are not to my taste, and being asked to do something that makes me feel not humbled, but a complete twerp.

I think that's fair enough. I don't think anybody should be forced or co-erced into something that makes them feel uncomfortable. When I say take part, I simply mean join in and sing as best you can. The actions are an option. My original objection was to the statement that 'Action songs are for kids'. Ok, I'll accept, in the most part, the actions are there primarily for the kids, and most adults don't really want to do them. (Although some do) This doesn't stop the words holding meaning, however simplistic the words may be.

Most of the children I know (but I'll admit, not all) love songs with actions and the actions help them remember the words, even before they've learn't how to read those words off an OHP or out of a book. I think singing those songs is a service to those kids - hence the washing feet analogy.

Sometimes though, some of these 'action' songs (with actions or not) can convey a truth in a way thats powerful because of the simplicity, and it would be a shame to miss that, IMO.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
I feel the Spirit is leading me to kill you.

In Christian love, of course.

[Biased]

That's ok. I'll sing a spontaneous song of release and healing over you. Possibly in tongues.

I'm sure Phudfan will assist in catching you as you fall to the floor [Two face]
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
quote:
I'm sure Phudfan will assist in catching you as you fall to the floor
As long as I'm not doing some actions at the time! [Razz]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Phudfan wrote:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorothea said:
Phudd: action songs...for kids.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bollocks. I know plenty of people who love action songs, and plenty of them are adults. If you think they're for kids, fine, but they're not JUST for kids, unless of course your above that sort of thing.

Naw, not above it; I used to be a playleader so I know a lot of action songs. I could sing the the 'trees of the fields' with 3-9 year olds in Suday school or in a 'special family service' but don't want to sing it for myself when I go to communion, cos a load of 'aesthically challenged' folk up the front think it's liberating to do so. It makes me feel physically ill.

J

sorry Phudd [Razz]
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
Talking of action songs, a dreadful one was inflicted upon the congregation at the church I went to last Sunday morning. First there was the 'talk' (it certainly wasn't a sermon) about how wonderful (all) human mothers are. Basically, the worst (animal) mothers are turtles because they abandon their eggs on a beach and bears are the best because they won't let anyone get near their young (demonstrated by teenager being scary bear holding a teddy); but human mummies love us whatever we do, and Jesus loves us unconditionally too. Then we had to learn this song (which apparently had been used at a holiday club where I think it might well have been great but that doesn't mean it works in a main service) about walking with Jesus with a chorus which featured us pretending to be riding horses (whilst walking with Jesus?) with interjections of giddy up giddy up giddy up and yeeeeehhhhhaaaaaaaaa accompanied by the action of lassooing. Thankfully I've blotted out the actually words. Combine with a congregation who barely sing (the rendition of Love Divine with which we finished was pitiful) and include being talked through the actions, an attempt to sing it which failed, because there was no clear lead as to how the words (particularly the chorus) actually fitted. So we then had to say the words together before actually singing the thing twice through (2 verses and chorus). The rest of the service was fine, but this slot (led by someone from the congregation) of talk and song bore no relation to it particularly as there was no attempt to link it to the Bible readings. Admittedly any attempt to do so was severely handicapped by the fact that although they were keeping it as Mothering Sunday (or Mothers' Day as the woman doing the talk said) they'd used the lectionary provision for the Fourth Sunday of Lent rather than for Mothering Sunday.

Carys
 
Posted by Pinkline Jones (# 5691) on :
 
The Millenium Prayer - now THAT IS an abortion.
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
I hate to admit this (even to myself), but I quite like the Millenium Prayer. Not as a song to be performed you understand. But we occasionally use it at our church in the service as a means of singing the Lords Prayer and it seems to work very well, so long as it isn't overused. Once every three months, max.

But I am not going to be able to sing "Shite, Jesus Shite" without snigggering again"

One horrific experience that I had a few weeks ago was a themed family service, where the congregation sung the entire book of Ruth, written in doggerel and set to the tune of "One Man went to Mow". It started "

-Esther went to Moab,
-Went to Moab in a famine

I can't remenber the rest, must have blanked it out from the trauma. It took the whole service, interspersed with mini-talks from the service leader. This was the same service that inspired my family service rant in Hell a few weeks ago.

BK
(I hasten to add that I am by no means inanywayshapeorform a Cliff fan. At. All.)
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Cliff rules.............................no, really. He literally is in charge. Of everything. [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:
One horrific experience that I had a few weeks ago was a themed family service, where the congregation sung the entire book of Ruth, written in doggerel and set to the tune of "One Man went to Mow". It started "

-Esther went to Moab,
-Went to Moab in a famine

Esther went to Moab?

I hope it was Naomi.

And is it just me, or does that not scan? I can cope with adding a syllable at teh end of the first line to fit in the -ab of Moab, but in the second line one has 7 syllables in the space of 4 and I can't make it fit.

Carys
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
Carys said
quote:
Esther went to Moab?

I hope it was Naomi

oops, told you I was traumatised. And no it doesn't scan, that was half the trouble.

BK
 
Posted by Erina (# 5306) on :
 
Speaking of trauma, I was recently talking to one of my friends in a Christian highschool. Apparently, ever since they got a new headmaster, they have been singing in chapel a hymn entitled "God of Concrete, God of Steel". At first, I didn't believe that could actually be a real hymn, but a little googling found it for me. From the 1971 Hymn Book of the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada, comes this marvelous tune:

God of concrete, God of steel,
God of piston and of wheel,
God of pylon, God of steam,
God of girder and of beam,
God of atom, God of mine:
all the world of power is thine.


There are three more verses in the same vein, which can be found here, if you're curious. I can understand maybe singing this once, just once, but I have it on good authority that my friends suffered through this in every bi-weekly chapel for two months.
 
Posted by Yay (# 2790) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Erina:
Speaking of trauma, I was recently talking to one of my friends in a Christian highschool. Apparently, ever since they got a new headmaster, they have been singing in chapel a hymn entitled "God of Concrete, God of Steel". At first, I didn't believe that could actually be a real hymn, but a little googling found it for me. From the 1971 Hymn Book of the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada, comes this marvelous tune:

God of concrete, God of steel,
God of piston and of wheel,
God of pylon, God of steam,
God of girder and of beam,
God of atom, God of mine:
all the world of power is thine.


There are three more verses in the same vein, which can be found here, if you're curious. I can understand maybe singing this once, just once, but I have it on good authority that my friends suffered through this in every bi-weekly chapel for two months.

I've written a new verse which could possibly be used at the convention of Christian Pharmacists if such a thing existed!

God of ointment, God of Creams
God of vaccines, children's screams
God of capsules, God of pills
God of diagnostic skills
God of lotion - calamine
All the world of drugs is thine

Verses written for any other professions to order!
 
Posted by Ado Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Try one for the Oldest Profession.
 
Posted by Norman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
I'm sure this has been mentioned at length before, but I had to play "There is a green hill far away" this morning.

I'd forgotten just what depths of horrifying depravity the lovely Mrs. C. F. Alexander could sink to. I have to admit I completely failed to keep a straight face.
 
Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
OK, backtracking a bit, action songs: all you people who have been deriding them - what do you think the Mass is?

OK, obviously the Mass is much more than just an action song (understatement of the week), but an action song it is. I think the use of action songs by charismatic congregations is a sign that we need to sing and use our bodies in worship. More traditional services are full of both (SotC, genuflection, bowing, kneeling, etc). Many evangelical churches have all but done away with these things, or at least de-ceremonised them. But people have a need for ceremonised action as part of their worship lives, so action songs come about as a means of allowing people to fulfil this need.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
You mean replaced adult symbolic actions with childish ones?
 
Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
OK, I'll start by saying I would rather sing the Mass (with actions) than sing any other action song, even a dry mass. I think our ancient, Catholic ceremonialised actions are inherently superior: both by virtue of being actions of thousands of Christians through the ages, who you can feel signing with you as you worship; and also in and of themselves.

However, I don't see how any action is in and of itself "adult" or "childish" - surely that is in the attitude of the person performing it? Also, most of the actions to most of these songs are symbolic. There are many reasons to object to something like My God is a Great Big God - but one cannot deny the symbolism of the actions.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
It's a cultural thing. Action songs are something kids do. The only action songs adults do IME are ones they are doing with kids.

Gesticulating at opposing supporters whilst singing "You're not singing any more" doesn't really count.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Then there's Singalonga-Sound of Music (and all the others), where people pay to sit in rows, sing and do silly actions. They could come to church and do it free!

Seriously, I'm thinking of suggesting that action songs are kept for Kids Club (ie where the kids are during most of the service), where the kids love them and do them, rather than in the main service, where they stand around looking at bewildered adults gesticulating wildly.

We did try learning some BSL signs to use, but the adults found it very difficult, and the kids just gave up.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
The ghastly song I mentioned was on that had apparently been used successfully at the holiday club. I thought, great, I can see that working, but what's going on in a main Sunday service and what's going on at Holiday Club (even if it's the worshippy bit at the end) are IMO very different things and so inserting something from one into the other rarely works.

Carys
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
My God is a Great Big God

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
Carys said
quote:
what's going on in a main Sunday service and what's going on at Holiday Club (even if it's the worshippy bit at the end) are IMO very different things and so inserting something from one into the other rarely works.

Oh yeah? If that's so, how come it happens at our church so frequently? [Paranoid]

I hate action songs and usually take evasive action, such as deciding that the toddler needs to be carried so he can join in the praise. Can't do actions with only one arm free.

Here's one from last Sunday

-Oi, oi, we're gonna praise the Lord
-Oi, oi, we're gonna praise the Lord
He's an exciting, powerising, c-collosal, humungous- mungus God!

BK
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
My evasive action trumps them all - I'm playing the piano.
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by busyknitter:


-Oi, oi, we're gonna praise the Lord
-Oi, oi, we're gonna praise the Lord
He's an exciting, powerising, c-collosal, humungous- mungus God!

BK

I am reminded of the school prayer from Monty Python's 'Meaning of Life' - "O God you are so huge, and we're all mightily impressed down here I can tell you."
 
Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on :
 
Here's a good quote from Jane Haddam's mystery Precious Blood (Bantam, 1991). Her fictional detective, Gregor Demarkian, who was brought up in the Armenian Orthodox Church, is visiting St. Agnes's (Roman Catholic) Church. The description could apply equally well to churches of many other denominations, including (unfortunately) my own.

quote:
There was a lot of singing, too. The congregation was supposed to join in, but it didn't, leaving the vocal exertions up to the choir. Gregor didn't blame them. The music was frequently insipid and sometimes just plain awful, the kind of thing the Carpenters might have written on a bad day.
Go, Jane! [Killing me]
 
Posted by quirky_beth (# 5696) on :
 
Originally posted by Egeria:
quote:

Quote from Jane Haddam's mystery Precious Blood (Bantam, 1991)
'There was a lot of singing, too. The congregation was supposed to join in, but it didn't, leaving the vocal exertions up to the choir. Gregor didn't blame them. The music was frequently insipid and sometimes just plain awful, the kind of thing the Carpenters might have written on a bad day.'
Go, Jane! [Killing me]

The worry about that, is it sounds so very familiar!

[Edited to fix UBB code]

[ 11. April 2004, 15:13: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
I'm visualizing the wriggling, as if using a hula-hoop, when my church sings the Hippo Song "Hip-Hip-Hippopotamus, Hip-Hip-Hooray God Made All of Us..." Yes, the adults do it with the kids, at the kids' events.

You haven't lived until you've seen staid matrons and dignified elders and deacons writhing around imitating dancing hippos, all in the name of the Lord.
 
Posted by Papio* (# 4201) on :
 
I don't know if anybody else has encountered this hymn:

Love is his word, love is his way
feasting with all, fasting alone
living and dying, rising again
love, only love is his way


and so on and so forth with only minor variations.

In any case, I thought it was very, very soppy. [Projectile]
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
Our parish has a children's song book, which includes
Advent Tells Us Christ is Near by Katherine Hankey, 1888, and now public domain.

This is an amazing item, with some really interesting rhymes. Note the couplet in the first two lines:

quote:
Yes, and Christ ascended, too,
to prepare a place for you;
so, we give him special praise,
after those great Forty Days.

Then, he sent the Holy Ghost,
on the Day of Pentecost,
with us ever to abide;
well may we keep Whitsuntide!

Now, how well can you sing "Ghost" and "Pentecost" so that they rhyme? Without laughing?
 
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
You haven't lived until you've seen staid matrons and dignified elders and deacons writhing around imitating dancing hippos, all in the name of the Lord.

Oh, I don't know, that sounds like it might be their fate in Purgatory or something -- sort of like the stuff Adrian Plass talks about in his Bouncy Castle book.

Not that it makes it a good hymn or anything.

In my church we don't do songs with actions at all. Do any ECUSA churches?

David
 
Posted by English Johnny (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio*:
I don't know if anybody else has encountered this hymn:

Love is his word, love is his way
feasting with all, fasting alone
living and dying, rising again
love, only love is his way


and so on and so forth with only minor variations.

In any case, I thought it was very, very soppy. [Projectile]

I've heard quite a few like that; strangely they all have similar "tunes". Not identical, just similar. Is someone reinventing plainsong? Only without the craft and skill.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
'Ghost' / 'Pentecost' is a perfectly good half-rhyme which would have made Wilfred Owen very happy if he'd thought of it.

However, I was driven crazy over the weekend by the line (in 'Living Lord'):

'All your commands I know are true'

Leaving aside for a moment the inept syntactical inversion and its ambiguities (is that 'I know all your commands are true' or 'Those of your commands which I know are true'?) a command is not a statement which makes a truth-claim. It's an imperative. Jesus!

And while I'm at it, 'You Came From Heaven Above' makes me wish for my family to come and deprogram me. Preferably in an expensive hotel.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
That old chestnut of a communion hymn, "O Lord I Am Not Worthy", has always made me cringe, especially the last line of the second verse:

And humbly I'll receive Thee,
The bridegroom of my soul.
No more by sin to grieve thee
Or fly thy sweet control.

As a child, I could never understand why someone would pilot an airplane up to the communion rail.
 
Posted by quirky_beth (# 5696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
I'm visualizing the wriggling, as if using a hula-hoop, when my church sings the Hippo Song "Hip-Hip-Hippopotamus, Hip-Hip-Hooray God Made All of Us..." Yes, the adults do it with the kids, at the kids' events.

You haven't lived until you've seen staid matrons and dignified elders and deacons writhing around imitating dancing hippos, all in the name of the Lord.

I thought we were the only ones to be subjected to this! Do you get the squeaky voices too?

"Higher Higher" is another appalling one. To see people dancing on the chairs, and worse of all, to be expected to join in, on a Sunday morning when I've just woken up - not pretty!
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
You haven't lived until you've seen staid matrons and dignified elders and deacons writhing around imitating dancing hippos, all in the name of the Lord.

I was happier then when I hadn't lived. It's this regression to childhood that these wretched things cause in otherwise intelligent adults that really bugs me.
 
Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
The whole point of any "action song", of adults getting into it with kids, is to tie into the kids' exuberance and help them relate to some basic Christian ideas.

Surely y'all can live with that, hhhhmmmm?

We've got a "Higher Higher", don't know if it's the one mentioned above. Hear it as "Hiyah", as if some New Jersey guy with a broken nose and a gun in a hidden holster was singing it:

(verse one)
Higher higher,
Hiiiiigher higher higher higher higher
Higher higher --
Lift Jesus higher!


Then the chorus:
Cast your burdens (clap clap clap)
Onto Jesus (clap clap clap)
For He caaaaaares for you (clap clap clap)
(repeat)

Then, "Lower lower, push Satan lower"
"Deeper deeper, dig your faith deeper"
"Wider wider, spread the Gospel wider"

All with enough physical movment to constitute an aerobic workout. Only in the kid-friendly worship events. Or when the women get together without those pesky men, we'll use something like this to "wake up" when we hit that tired drowsy spot between lectures at a seminar.

Aerobic worship is wonderful.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Doesn't explain the damned things being used when there are no kids around.

I worry more about the impact they might have on any normal person who wanders in off the street. "You mean Christianity is about looking a tit doing 'one potato, two potato' actions to 'I will build my church'? No thanks, I think I'll try the Buddhists"
 
Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
KLB,
I hate dancing in church as much as yourself. (especially the liturgical type involving flags or ribbons - please Lord, who's idea was that?) But the fact is that some people who come in from outside are attracted by a form of worship involving "fun" actions for kids. And they seem to quite like joining in - Janine, it seems is a case in point.
Freaky to me, but it takes all sorts.
 
Posted by English Johnny (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Doesn't explain the damned things being used when there are no kids around.

I worry more about the impact they might have on any normal person who wanders in off the street. "You mean Christianity is about looking a tit doing 'one potato, two potato' actions to 'I will build my church'? No thanks, I think I'll try the Buddhists"

KLB, If people are worried about what others will think of them, they probably won't want to be associated with any Christians. Christians do have this knack of making other Christian's toes curl.

If someone wants to try the Buddhists, they can. It's entirely their decision. Christianity isn't.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Of course ultimately concern about what others think of us will have to be subdued. But let's try not to look like complete tits right from the beginning.

Surely there's something less infantile and cringingly naff we can do to attract people who like a bit of colour and activity?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Need to explain further, now I think I've understood for myself what the problem is.

It's niceness.

Not holiness, not goodness. But niceness.

The action songs smack of a Christianity that's all flower shows and square dancing. Coffee Mornings and beetle drives. Cleaning the silver and stacking up the chairs after the Ladies' Prettiest Tea Cosy competition. It's completely alien to most people I know, who go down the pub, watch the telly, swear and make rude jokes about willies. I'm in the latter group and find the whole church culture as alien and as uninviting as a suggestion to a hippopotamus to join the Royal Ballet. Fortunately, I was appealed by the theology, not the culture. If I'd grown up in the church I'd probably not be a Christian now.

And action songs epitomise the horrible, "nice", girly worst of it. Go on - go round your office and ask your workmates how many of them want to sing action songs in public. They'll look at you like you've just said something weird about Hyracotheria.

Or, to put it the way Vyvyan did in the Young Ones - "It's so sodding NICE AND IT MAKES ME SICK!"

[ 13. April 2004, 15:09: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
There is no way Beetle Drives are nice.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
For one thing, they tend to be full of rude jokes about willies.
 
Posted by English Johnny (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Need to explain further, now I think I've understood for myself what the problem is.

It's niceness.

Not holiness, not goodness. But niceness.

The action songs smack of a Christianity that's all flower shows and square dancing. Coffee Mornings and beetle drives. Cleaning the silver and stacking up the chairs after the Ladies' Prettiest Tea Cosy competition. It's completely alien to most people I know, who go down the pub, watch the telly, swear and make rude jokes about willies. I'm in the latter group and find the whole church culture as alien and as uninviting as a suggestion to a hippopotamus to join the Royal Ballet. Fortunately, I was appealed by the theology, not the culture. If I'd grown up in the church I'd probably not be a Christian now.

And action songs epitomise the horrible, "nice", girly worst of it. Go on - go round your office and ask your workmates how many of them want to sing action songs in public. They'll look at you like you've just said something weird about Hyracotheria.

Or, to put it the way Vyvyan did in the Young Ones - "It's so sodding NICE AND IT MAKES ME SICK!"

KLB,

I do believe you have it! Niceness is easy because it can be faked. I can't think of many who exhibit Holiness and Goodness without the aforementioned toe-curdling tendencies (which are manifestations of niceness).

As for pubs and offices it might be worth noting that I get a better hearing talking about Jesus to the fairly hard-bitten lot in my favourite pub than I do to the bunch in my office. Does the beer help? Or are bikers, muso's, rockers, goths and punks a better audience generally? (They definitely don't count as "yoof").
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
It's the beer.

I've seen people converted after six pints who are atheists again by morning.
 
Posted by cygnus (# 3294) on :
 
A while back I was at a service with my teenage daughter, and during the dreadful "Isn't He?" ie

Isn't he beautiful? (beautiful?), \Isn't he wonderful? (wonderful?).... Wonderful (isn't he?) etc. ad nauseam

she turned to me and whispered "That's exactly how we talk to the dog!"
 
Posted by Choristerrr (# 473) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

I worry more about the impact they might have on any normal person who wanders in off the street. "You mean Christianity is about looking a tit doing 'one potato, two potato' actions to 'I will build my church'? No thanks, I think I'll try the Buddhists"

There was an ecumenical service in our town square with all this (why is it that ecumenical services are always taken over by the loony brigade?)
Next town weekly newspaper, a letter appeared from the antiques fair (being held at the same time) people, complaining that their takings were down, as the public had been too embarrassed to turn up while all the flagwaving, action choruses had been going on!
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
The answer to your question,Choristerrr, is that the loony brigade eagerly volunteer, and everyone else is happy to unload it onto them, as it makes one less thing to think about. Grrr.
 
Posted by English Johnny (# 5713) on :
 
My pet peeves:

The song without end. This is usually some Christian rock number that ought to fade out*, but few if any churches can fade such music out. What is worse, even when there are musicians around that can knock up an ending in seconds, they don't bother. If music can start it can d....d well end too.

Related to above. When the d...d song doesn't end the performer (read: worship leader) carries on in some self satisfying monotonous chant which effectively excludes the congregation.

Phew, I feel better for that!

*It isn't only God-Rock. Some of the softer songs devoid of tune or rhythm (beyond a weak four to the bar in whatever key the composer can mumble in with least effort) are worse still.

[ 14. April 2004, 07:44: Message edited by: English Johnny ]
 
Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cygnus:
A while back I was at a service with my teenage daughter, and during the dreadful "Isn't He?" ie

Isn't he beautiful? (beautiful?), \Isn't he wonderful? (wonderful?).... Wonderful (isn't he?) etc. ad nauseam

she turned to me and whispered "That's exactly how we talk to the dog!"

Oh.my.goodness. I can't believe there are still churches that sing this song. Much as I love 80's culture, there are certian aspects of it that need to be left there. Like this song. [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Projectile]
 
Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by English Johnny:
My pet peeves:

The song without end. This is usually some Christian rock number that ought to fade out*, but few if any churches can fade such music out. What is worse, even when there are musicians around that can knock up an ending in seconds, they don't bother. If music can start it can d....d well end too.

We Want to See Jesus Lifted High. I sometimes dream I'm in a church service where they started to sing this and never ever found the way to end it, so we end up singing it for all eternity.

A foreshadowing of damnation, perhaps.
 
Posted by English Johnny (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
Originally posted by English Johnny:
My pet peeves:

The song without end. This is usually some Christian rock number that ought to fade out*, but few if any churches can fade such music out. What is worse, even when there are musicians around that can knock up an ending in seconds, they don't bother. If music can start it can d....d well end too.

We Want to See Jesus Lifted High. I sometimes dream I'm in a church service where they started to sing this and never ever found the way to end it, so we end up singing it for all eternity.

A foreshadowing of damnation, perhaps.

My experience is slightly different.

That very song, being sung and sung and yes, I went off into a reverie (probably about a rugby match. Could even have been about work) and when I came back, it was still going. I think I wandered off and got a drink. Had there been any, it would been a strong drink. There were about six of us out the back and the band was still playing.

Don't get me wrong: it's a lovely church, lovely people but it ain't perfect. Neither should it be.

[ 14. April 2004, 09:09: Message edited by: English Johnny ]
 
Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by English Johnny:

Originally posted by English Johnny:
My pet peeves:

The song without end. This is usually some Christian rock number that ought to fade out*, but few if any churches can fade such music out. What is worse, even when there are musicians around that can knock up an ending in seconds, they don't bother. If music can start it can d....d well end too.

That song "Here I am to worship" (which I think is a nice song, don't get me wrong) actually has no cadence written in it to end. Someone told me once about being at a meeting where they were singing this and they just kept on and on, and the band stopped but everyone kept singing, so the band had to start again. How it ever ended I have no idea.
Of course the story was told as if it was some amazing spritual experience. Rather than simply because there is no ending written to the song.
 
Posted by English Johnny (# 5713) on :
 
Oh and another thing.

Leprechaun has reminded me of all those songs that say "Let us worship him ... " or some such.

Why, instead of saying what we are going to do don't we get on and do it instead? Don't the writers know how to worship (or praise) beyond instructing people to do so?

Fume, [Mad] , fizzle, splutter
 
Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by English Johnny:
Oh and another thing.


Why, instead of saying what we are going to do don't we get on and do it instead? Don't the writers know how to worship (or praise) beyond instructing people to do so?

My own personal view on this is that its because worship isn't really something you do in church anyway. But that's probably a discussion for somewhere else...

[ 14. April 2004, 10:45: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]
 
Posted by wesleyswig (# 5436) on :
 
quote:
My evasive action trumps them all - I'm playing the piano.
I do believe, that in times of warfare and shoddy hymns/songs that that is really called collaboration and so should never be talked of again

many Regards As Ever
John
 
Posted by Sauerkraut (# 3112) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cygnus:
A while back I was at a service with my teenage daughter, and during the dreadful "Isn't He?" ie

Isn't he beautiful? (beautiful?), \Isn't he wonderful? (wonderful?).... Wonderful (isn't he?) etc. ad nauseam

she turned to me and whispered "That's exactly how we talk to the dog!"

You should try finding (it might be difficult) either Hot Air for Jesus or Char by Marc Catley. He has written great new lyrics that just might bring this song back to common usage in the church.

Isn't He?
You know I thought He was.
Is He What?
Hey?
Pardon?

 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
We've got a "Higher Higher", don't know if it's the one mentioned above. Hear it as "Hiyah", as if some New Jersey guy with a broken nose and a gun in a hidden holster was singing it:

(verse one)
Higher higher,
Hiiiiigher higher higher higher higher
Higher higher --
Lift Jesus higher!


Then the chorus:
Cast your burdens (clap clap clap)
Onto Jesus (clap clap clap)
For He caaaaaares for you (clap clap clap)
(repeat)

Then, "Lower lower, push Satan lower"
"Deeper deeper, dig your faith deeper"
"Wider wider, spread the Gospel wider"

We sing that too.

Though the vicar who introduced it to us was originally from Pennsylvania, so maybe the New Jersey accent isn't too far off.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Much as I like the songs of the Blessed Graham Kendrick of South-East London (and I do, I do) I do wonder what possessed whoever chose the hymns for the evening service on Easter Day to choose four of them (organ accompaniment of course).

That Spirit of Repetition must have also been active on the second Sunday of Easter, because we were asked to sing five of Mr. Kendrick's productions. Four of them the same as the week before. Five. In. One. Service.

I suspect its age-related. Maybe no-one over the age of 60 should be permitted to choose songs. I can't believe that any of our younger folk would have done that.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Nope.

I would have chosen five YFriday songs.

Met them last week. They said I was cool [Cool]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I learned 'Higher, higher' at Kensington Temple. It works a lot better when about 400 Afro-Caribbean pentecostals are singing it with vigour than when performed by a piano and 30 nervous Anglicans.
 
Posted by quirky_beth (# 5696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I learned 'Higher, higher' at Kensington Temple. It works a lot better when about 400 Afro-Caribbean pentecostals are singing it with vigour than when performed by a piano and 30 nervous Anglicans.

Yes, i can imagine. Unfortunately, in the latter situation, it just looks like the only high person is the vicar, for choosing it in the first place.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
But "Afro-Caribbean pentecostals" and "nervous Anglicans" are mot disjoint sets.

Some people are both at the same time. At least they are at our church.

Doesn't make them able to sing though - there seems to be a Spirit of Tunelessness abroad in Deptford.
 
Posted by Katherine F. (aka puritybrown) (# 5811) on :
 
/delurk/

Hey, all! I was a cradle Catholic (of sorts -- having an atheist dad makes a big difference) and although it seems to be axiomatic that Catholics "can't sing", I was in the children's choir until I was 12 and learned a lot of really good songs... and a lot of bloody awful ones. And a lot that would have been good if they'd scanned better. And a lot that were good the first time, but not the 95th. Like "Go In Peace", a bouncy little number always sung at the end of a Mass when we were involved... and I do mean always. We just didn't have any other "the Mass is ended, go in peace" songs, so that one got wheeled out every. Single. Time.

It wasn't objectionable in itself, in its happy-clappy, break-out-the-maracas-and-tambourines way, but after a few years we got so sick of it that we'd deliberately sing too fast to get through it quickly. (This also meant we got to go home sooner, of course...) And it was a pernicious earworm that is even now burrowing its way through my brain:

GO nowinPEACE we'veSHAREDinhislove
The LOVEofoursaviour JesusChristabove!
Tell allyoumeetthatheis GE-EHNtle and kind
PRAISE him and LOVE him with body, soul and mind!

Go in peace (shake tambourines and maracas)
Go in joy (shake tambourines and maracas like a mad thing)
Go in the LOVE! (again with the tambourines, and if your wrists aren't hurting by now you're not doing it right)
Of the Lord above (repeat, and shake maracas and tambourines until the guitarist does her little flourish and people start standing up and leaving)

*sigh* And then there's the Irish-language church music... but I won't start.
 
Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
We have a song that we sing during Easter season called "Resucito", a catchy tune with simple Spanish words. (We actually sing the verses in English.)

It's not too bad, but on Easter Sunday, we had additional musicians who joined in. The guitars and muted trumpets made it sound JUST like mariachi music.

quote:
Resucito! Resicito! Resucito! Aleluya! (strum strum) (strum strum)
Aleluya! Aleluya! Aleluya! Resucito! (bwaawaa bwaawaa) (bwaawaa bwaawaa)

Dea-eth!
Where is dea-eth?
Where is dea-eth?
Where is it's sti-ing?

The "Spaghetti Western" flavor has led us to now call it "The Theme from Fist Full of Angels".

[ 22. April 2004, 19:09: Message edited by: Eanswyth ]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
[Killing me]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I've got a great Wellspring recording of that song. Full paso doble guitars and trumpets, the whole bit. Love it, but I'd never try to sing it in my church!
 
Posted by Melchizedek the Confused (# 5815) on :
 
Hello folks
My first posting and it will show
I have rather skimmed through these generally excellent threads so apologies if this is not wholly "right there"
In my experience most attempts to "include children in worhsip" through things like action songs reflect some or all of the following:

adults who insist on action songs (even beyond the point of purpose never mind dignity) because of some lamentable trendy gene or mid life crisis

Inability to empathise enough with the spirituality of children to be complicated with them on their terms

cruelty

more cruelty

musical incompetence

Tourettes

However cliched it may be every hymn book anyhone has ever shown is riddled with bad hymns. (Incidentally am I the only one who is riled by the use of "song" nowadays - like "talk" instead of sermon. Just because too many people nowadays cant preach does not stop it being a sermon) There are just far more bad hymns than good. The one thing to be said for modern hymns is that they are at least even at their worst they contemporaneously and comprehensibly bad. And ususally mercifully short. In Victorian Britain a fair number of babies cannot have survived the hymns sung at their baptism!

One final thought Steve Guttenberg once said that you needed films like Police Academy alongside Psycho for the same reason you sometimes needed sweets as well as steak. Roll on my strawberry cream flavoured "My God is So Great So big and so mighty!"

Hwyl fawr i bawb
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
I've got a great Wellspring recording of that song. Full paso doble guitars and trumpets, the whole bit. Love it, but I'd never try to sing it in my church!

Me too. Brilliant, isn't it?!
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cygnus:
A while back I was at a service with my teenage daughter, and during the dreadful "Isn't He?" ie

Isn't he beautiful? (beautiful?), \Isn't he wonderful? (wonderful?).... Wonderful (isn't he?) etc. ad nauseam

she turned to me and whispered "That's exactly how we talk to the dog!"

ROFLMAO at this one. Thank goodness no-one's tried to make a worship chorus out of the way *I* talk to the dog.

It would go something like:

Frig you, frig you, frig you,
Leave me alone,
Let go of my leg,
Frig, frig you bloody little frigger.
Down, down, drop that
Let go of my leg.
Frig you, frig you, frig you,
Whose idea was it to bring you in the house?


I think it's got enough repetition to work as a praise-and-worship chorus. It could be specifically designed to be sung by people under conviction by the Holy Spirit, who are wishing the Hound of Heaven would go where He came from.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Only 2 GK songs this Sunday evening.

There must be some sort of decay function I can calculate to see when the run will stop.

Unless it is oscillating of course.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Ken, I think you've stumbled onto a phenomenon known as 'Kendrick Dating'. It's a bit like Carbon dating. You can use it to find out the date that a particular church bought a job lot of mission praise books. It can also be useful in ascertaining when a church first used an overhead projector.

For those of you familiar with 'Carbon dating', 'Kendrick dating' works in a very similar way. You simply measure the number of Kendrick songs that are sung in each service over a certain period. You then match this measurement to the Kendrick Half-life graph. To give you a rough guide - a couple of Kendrick songs in a six-month period is typical of a church that bought Mission Praise over twenty five years ago and now only use it on very rare occasions (ie, when there's a power cut on a sunday morning so neither the video projector OR overhead projector can be used).

If you are encountering several Kendrick songs each week that means one of two things. 1) A church that has only just discovered the joys of the guitar and an OHP or 2) somebody at the church responsible for choosing songs/hymns has been recontaminated, possibly through a dodgy CD or even a visit to a highly Kendrick-active site. I hear that Skegness and Minehead are still places that are best avoided if you do not want to put yourself at risk.

Obviously, some churches seem to have avoided being exposed to any Kendrick-activity at all. These churches are often dismissive of the advantages that Kendrick can bring - but also don't run the risk of experiencing any of the more bizarre side-effects, which include the use of rainbow coloured guitar straps and the inability to finish a song without including a key change AND a false ending/accapella chorus.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Now I understand!

In this case the Mission Praise purchasing was sometime in the late 1980s.

But we got a big lot of Songs of Fluffiness only 2 months ago.

Maybe the hymn-choosing-person was looking through the book to see what was there and was reminded of all the GK songs she used to sing back in the days when MP was new.
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Originally posted by Ken:
quote:
Maybe the hymn-choosing-person was looking through the book to see what was there and was reminded of all the GK songs she used to sing back in the days when MP was new.

This sounds like a potential source of contamination - especially if the person in question did not take the necessary precautions before opening the 'Songs of Fluffiness' book - ie: protective clothing and an iodine tablet.

Once a person has been contaminated in this way, they then become a risk to others. The risk can be minimised by a form of quarantine - confiscate all guitar strings and keyboard power leads. The 'victim' will happily continue 'playing' their instrument unaware that they are no longer a danger to society at large.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
The only guitar-stringer in our church is me.

The GK songs are perpetrated with organ and piano.

[Duplicate post deleted]

[ 28. April 2004, 07:55: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by phudfan (# 4740) on :
 
Ah......that makes things a little trickier. Organists and pianists are generally more resistant to contamination and hence, once contaminated, are harder to quarantine.

The only course of action left to you is to build a 'shelter' for the rest of the congregation. All you need is a set of speakers and a CD with all the Kendrick songs on it (this must be handled with extreme care in order to minimize the risk of further contamination of either yourself or close family members). You then need to find a way of playing the CD so the 'songs' can be played backwards. Once this is achieved, anytime a Kendrick song is played by the contaminated individual, you play the exact same song through the speakers, only backwards. The two sound waves should completely cancel each other out - leaving silence and the opportunity for you to play something 'safe' on the guitar.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Organists, as usually talented and sensitive musicians, generally hate GK. The trick is to let them realise there are folk in the congregation who hate them as well. The revolt will follow as sure as night follows day.
 
Posted by David (# 3) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Organists, as usually talented and sensitive musicians, generally hate GK.

That's because they aren't up to playing it.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David:
That's because they aren't up to playing it.

Has anyone noticed that much of the sheet music published today seems to be created as a staight print from a MIDI system? So every tiny difference in what's really a repeat gets notated with dotted eighth notes and the like. It's tedious when what's really a verse and chorus structure is eight or ten pages of notation, exercising obscure note length variants everywhere.

I suspect this is because some modern composers do not in fact write music notation (and it's not essential that they should.) And that music editors (people, not software) are few, far between, and highly-paid.

There are exceptions - Ruth Fazal is classically trained, and her notation is usually two facing pages - ideal!

How does that related to the quote - some of the music isn't up to being played, having been published half-baked.
 
Posted by David (# 3) on :
 
All of the Kendrick stuff I've seen - admittedly not all of it, and only with a passing interest - has been well-published.

That is not the problem, although it's related.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
And the musicians are playing it out of the hymn books (as noted above either MP or SoF) which usually have just once through verse & chorus quite simply laid out.
 
Posted by Pyx_e. (# 57) on :
 
I think Norman needs this thread.

P
 
Posted by A Jay UK (# 5756) on :
 
quote:
Organists, as usually talented and sensitive musicians, generally hate GK
I like GK! I think the key to incorporating modern material is to a)find the right moment in the service, some make useful 'gathering songs' some of the quieter, more reflective choruses work well during communion and b) Re-harmonisation of some of the simpler material can help, sometimes I arrange them into SATB or barbershop type.

Incorporating choruses and songs into your worship can be painless. To me it is a question of balance between traditional and modern music. [Smile]
 
Posted by Joykins (# 5820) on :
 
In youth group, we sang a bunch of appalling songs, including "Jesus is the Rock and He Rolls My Blues Away (bop shoo bop shoo bop whee!)" and that song "I Wish We'd All Been Ready" that ends "The Fathers spoke, the demons dined, the Son has come and you've been left behind."

However, the really disturbing one, a grammatical abomination in deerskin, is "As the Deer." The song itself isn't too bad in theory--it's from Psalm 42 and the tune isn't too terribly repetitive or boring. But something awful to it happened, presumably in translation or transcription. It's schizophrenic--as if someone thought it'd be more respectful to God if it sounded all King-James-ish without actually knowing anything at all about the language or how to sustain it:

quote:

As the deer panteth for the water
So my soul longeth after Thee

So far so good...

quote:
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship Thee

Note the switch to You in the 3rd line, and in the 4th line, BAM! back to "Thee"

Apparently this songwriter (or transcriber: I have found online a grammatically coherent version of this song, but I've NEVER HEARD IT SUNG with grammatically coherent lyrics!) thinks that the 2nd person is formal in the nominative and informal in the accusative.

quote:

You alone are my strength, my shield
To You alone may my spirit yield
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship Thee

From Thee to You and back to Thee again. My head is spinning just trying to think about it, and no doubt King David is rotating in his grave at high speed.

Don't believe people could bear to sing this without cringing? Here are these shudder-provoking lyrics at a website meant for praise and worship music leaders: http://www.kennycarter.net/Lyrics/as_the_deer.html


Joy
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joykins:
I have found online a grammatically coherent version of this song, but I've NEVER HEARD IT SUNG with grammatically coherent lyrics!

We use the grammatically coherent version. My wife, who's the contemporary worship leader, is also a technical writer with a Classics background - she couldn't stand that mishmash, either.
 
Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
I'm glad to say I've only seen the grammatically coherent one. And that's bad enough. I hope I never encounter the other one.

Within the last week or so there have been two occasions when I've had to sing hideously corrupted versions of otherwise excellent hymns.

The first one was "Praise, my soul, the King of Heaven." They changed the bit that goes "Praise him, praise him" to "Alleluia, alleluia." Which is fair enough, apart from in one verse, where the imperative "Praise him" actually forms part of a sentence.

Alleluia, alleluia, widely as his mercy flows. Huh?!

The second involved the excellent "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation." There is a verse which goes
Hast thou not seen
All that is needful hath been
Granted by what he ordaineth?


The penultimate line was replaced with some bastardisation along the lines of "All thy heart's wishes have been..."

This from a really very mainstream worship book.

What kind of outrageous false vending-machine prosperity theology spawned that?! No, I most emphatically have not seen all my heart's wishes blah blah etc, and no Christianity worthy of the name would claim that I ought to have done.

People are going to sing that line and think "Nope ... I guess the whole thing must be a fairy story then." [brick wall]
 
Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Can I take this opportunity to remind the clergy/"worship leader's" that "hymns" which go:

quote:
And the trees of the field shall clap their hands, and the tree's of the field shall clap their hands and the tree's of the of the fields shall clap thier hands and we'll go out with joy And the trees of the field shall clap their hands, and the tree's of the field shall clap their hands and the tree's of the of the fields shall clap thier hands and we'll go out with joy And the trees of the field shall clap their hands, and the tree's of the field shall clap their hands and the tree's of the of the fields shall clap thier hands and we'll go out with joy And the trees of the field shall clap their hands, and the tree's of the field shall clap their hands and the tree's of the of the fields shall clap thier hands and we'll go out with joy
are in general, quite crap?

Also, did we really need to sing it so many times?

It's even worse then:

quote:
We'll just stand there with our hands to the sky and when the world wonder's why, we'll just tell them we're praising the king. Ye-ee-es, we'll just tell them we're praising the king. O-oo-o, we'll just tell them we're praising the king
And ok, we haven't sung the last if these yet, but the dreadful memories of it from my eva days haunt me still..................
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Talitha:
The second involved the excellent "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation." There is a verse which goes
Hast thou not seen
All that is needful hath been
Granted by what he ordaineth?


The penultimate line was replaced with some bastardisation along the lines of "All thy heart's wishes have been..."

This from a really very mainstream worship book.

What kind of outrageous false vending-machine prosperity theology spawned that?! No, I most emphatically have not seen all my heart's wishes blah blah etc, and no Christianity worthy of the name would claim that I ought to have done.

People are going to sing that line and think "Nope ... I guess the whole thing must be a fairy story then." [brick wall]

Interestingly, the only version of this hymn I have ever sung goes "Hast thou not seen, how thy desires ere have been..." which thematically seems to be closer to "all thy heart's wishes" than the original version you posted. I, too, would rather think God is only going to grant what's needful and not everything I want (how appalling that would be), but the psalm does say "delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." How is one meant to read that?

And now I'm wondering which really are the original lyrics to "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation."
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
Original lyrics eh? That reminds me. I go to a church that suffers the use of Praise! hymnbook. The trouble with this (otherwise excellent) book is that they have felt the need to 'modernise' all the words of the old hymns. (Ironically enough, there are a couple in there that still contain 'Thee' and 'Thou' etc - these are relatively modern ones, such as 'How great thou art' where they couldn't get permission from the living copyright holder!)

The worst effect is when it affects the first line. Twice recently we have sung the hymn which Carys uses in her sig, which should of course be:
quote:
Thine be the glory, risen conquering Son
In Praise! - you really don't want to know this, but I'll tell you anyway:
quote:
Glory to Jesus! Risen conquering Son
Words are fine in themselves, but it doesn't sound as if its the same hymn. And that really annoys me [Mad]
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
Talking of "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation", I'm convinced that there are two more verses to it than are in our hymn book. Everyone else, including my husband, thinks I'm making it up. One of them contains lines that go something like:

"Then to thy need
He like a mother doth speed
Spreading the wings of grace o'er thee"

and the other verse goes something along the lines of:

"Praise to the Lord, who when darkness of sin is abounding
(Something something something something) ... all goodness confounding
Sheddeth his light
Chaseth the shadows of night
Saints with his mercy surrounding"

Please tell me I'm not hallucinating!

(ObTopic: I love this hymn, but it's usually sung far too slowly, and drags horribly.)
 
Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
Please tell me I'm not hallucinating!

Although your memory is not quite 100%, you are not hallucinating:

Praise to the Lord.

I found this verse there:

quote:
Praise to the Lord, who, when darkness of sin is abounding,
who, when the godless do triumph, all virtue confounding,
sheddeth his light,
chaseth the horrors of night,
saints with his mercy surrounding


 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I seem to recall that the hymnbook which really went to town on 'modernising' the words was 'Hymns for Today's Church' some time in the early 80s (?). The compilers seemed to me to be rather like the chap riding on the back of a tiger (i.e. how to get off safely....) - having more or less successfully 'modernised' one or two hymns, they were then forced willy-nilly to do the same to everything in sight, with the dire results we all know. Deo gratias that many churches have gone back to the trad words for trad hymns!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Dee-nz (# 5681) on :
 
Hookay,
[Killing me]
I am Gasping for air as I have nearly laughed myself silly over these postings...now to my lest favorite chorus. I used to go to an AoG church where the Pastor was a singer/songwriter. Unfortunately I was a kid at the time and so I had no choice about which church I attended and I hated his music. Everyone else used to think he was great "oh his worship is soooo anointed [Projectile] " anyway here is the song that we always sang as the offering was taken up.

"Give, to God, and it shall be given,
Bring the Tithes and Offerings to him
Give to God, All that is due him
Worship, and give back to God"

[Projectile]

It was sung in a slow, dreamilke (read anointed) way and I always squirmed and felt like it was emotional manipulation. Course the church was pretty prosperity doctrine focused so there you have it.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
It's a long time since I have sung 'All hail the power of Jesus' Name' but we sang it on Sunday, and I was reminded of how 17th and 18th century hymn-writers were understandably obsessed with death and icky stuff. I suppose the sanitised, all-is-sweetness-and-light 20th century twee-stuff was written as a reaction to that viewpoint.

'Sinners, whose love can ne'er forget
the wormwood and the gall.....'
 
Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
"Then to thy need
He like a mother doth speed
Spreading the wings of grace o'er thee"

Yes, I like those verses as well - though I can never sing them with a straight face now, since the person next to me turned and whispered "but my mother doesn't do speed..."
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
Found on here a version of Praise to the Lord with both verses, plus another one I didn't know:

Praise to the Lord, who when tempests their warfare are waging,
Who, when the elements madly around thee are raging,
Biddeth them cease,
Turneth their fury to peace,
Whirlwinds and waters assuaging.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
[QB] Can I take this opportunity to remind the clergy/"worship leader's" that "hymns" which go:

[QUOTE] And the trees of the field shall clap their hands, ...

are in general, quite crap?

Isaiah 55:12

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

(NIV, courtesy BibleGateway.com)
 
Posted by thomasm (# 4618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
[QB] Can I take this opportunity to remind the clergy/"worship leader's" that "hymns" which go:

[QUOTE] And the trees of the field shall clap their hands, ...

are in general, quite crap?

Isaiah 55:12

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

(NIV, courtesy BibleGateway.com)

Well at our church we had someone complain to the minister about that song until he told whoever it was that it came from Isiah, at which point it became a favourite of theirs!!!
Tom
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
There's no indication that Isaiah intended that line to be repeated several times, then the whole thing to be sung again, and again, faster and faster until the speed exceeds the competence of the guitarist +30%.
 
Posted by Sir George Grey. (# 2643) on :
 
Does anyone have any really awful examples of rewritten hymns?

A church I was until recently a member of had a special person appointed for this task. Urrgh. The purpose was to make the words more inclusive, ie, more feminine imagery etc or failing that 'gender neutrality'. So, the rousing hymn:
quote:
Tell out my soul, the greatness of the Lord
became:

quote:
Tell out my soul the greatness that I've heard.
Her aims were thoroughly laudable, but she was no poet to say the least.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
WHAT?

There's genuine inclusivity and then there's missing the point.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Small tangent:

Does anyone have the words to "This is just another Graham Kendrick song" to hand? I'm sure I first ran across them on one of this thread's predecessors. We're doing the original Sunday coming, and I would like to delight the musicians with the parody as well.

You may now return to your original programming.

End tangent.

John
 
Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 
Here it is.

The first verse goes:

quote:
This is just another Graham Kendrick song
This is just another Graham Kendrick song
We sing the first line twice and then we sing it again
This is just another Graham Kendrick song



 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
My, that was fast. Thanks SS.

John
 
Posted by Insomniac (# 4121) on :
 
There's also a verse that goes something like:

Make sure that you miss out an im-(clap)-portant beat.

My church for some reason 'updated' silent night so that it no longer scans and contains some very dodgy grammar. The official first verse is now
'Still the night, holy the night
Sleeps the world, hid from sight
Mary and Joseph in stable bare, watch over the child beloved and fair...

I'm not sure how it goes after that because I refuse to sing the new version. But it is interesting to listen to how many musicians try to make the last line fit the tune and end up singing 'mare-yan-jose-fin' versus giving up completely and putting all the extra notes in, so completely destroying the peaceful flow of the carol.
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
That version of Silent Night is not particularly new; it appears in the Revised Church Hymnary and even the Public School Hymn Book (among others). It fits the tune perfectly well if you split the odd note in the obvious way (you need to turn a minim into a dotted crotchet optionally tied to a quaver, depending on the verse). I would say the only glitch in your version is that "over" should read "o'er".

Robin

[ 13. May 2004, 08:48: Message edited by: Robin ]
 
Posted by Insomniac (# 4121) on :
 
Well, yes, if you change the rhythm and cram in a lot of extra notes you can squeeze all the words in - but it still ruins the peaceful flow of the carol.

Our version does have 'over', because of the stupid attempt to update all language that people no longer use in everyday conversation. I'm sure whoever decided on the updating (not just of Silent Night but it is the worst of the updates) was not a musician.
 
Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
Ouch -- apologies for the above. I was interrupted in mid-post, and have only just realised that I actually hit the button. Maybe some kind host could delete it.

To summarise what I intended to say: I'm not convinced that
quote:

Mary and Joseph in stable bare

is any more "crammed in" than, say,
quote:

heaven'ly hosts sing alleluia

from the other version.

Secondly the author responsible for the Still the night translation of Stille nacht was one Stopford Brook (1832 - 1916), described as an English divine and man of letters, who wrote a number of books on English poets, so it would be hard to accuse him of having no feeling for language, nor (ignoring the "over" for "o'er" substitution) is his version a "modern update"

However, it may just be that we prefer what we're used to. I believe "Still the night" is better known in Scotland, possibly because, as I said above, that is the version which appears in the Church Hymnary.

Robin

[Incomplete post above deleted as requested]

[ 14. May 2004, 09:54: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by hild (# 6042) on :
 
Hello, people.

I have just discovered the Ship, and was immediately drawn to this thread. Quite what that says about me, I dread to think. I have been rationing myself to a couple of pages a day, so that I don't end up in a straitjacket.

Two things have occurred to me so far (well, only two that I care to mention just yet).

First, do you remember a song called 'Ascribe greatness to our God, the Rock'?
It is nearly possible to accompany this with the music for 'Puff, the Magic Dragon.'

Sorry.

Secondly, I know very few children who actually like action songs. My own two have always loathed them. At our church (I suppose I'd better admit it is one of those that would once have been described as a house church, but please don't assume I have no musical taste because of that) I run 'praise parties'* for the 7-14 year olds. They would flatly refuse to do any actions. We do do dance moves, but rarely in an organised fashion. (At least, not organised by adults. For some reason some of the boys like to do a can-can variant if the music is the right speed.)

Surprisingly (or not) they have what I regard as a fair bit of musical taste, rejecting anything twee or boring. They don't ask for the old hymns, although will sing one occasionally if I ask nicely, but do demand some sense in a song. Even the one with the boings in it - they like the idea of Bouncing On In the Name of God. Contrived, yes, but if they get closer to God with it, it's fine by me. I get closer to Him too, if I sing it in a praise party. I don't think I would if surrounded by adults, though.


* 'Praise parties' in this context are opportunities for the kids (my 10 year old distinguishes between children (aged 3-6), kids (aged 7-12) and teenagers, and I have got into the habit of doing so too) to let their hair down without lots of boring adults expecting them to behave like a load of toddlers. We use upbeat music, usually fairly close in style to what they hear on TV/radio or buy on CD, i.e. secular stuff; we dance; they jump off the stage a lot; we have a few serious moments every now and again; we're usually tired by the end; a good time is generally had by all. Including God, I hope.

I await your reactions with interest....

H [Smile]
 
Posted by Joykins (# 5820) on :
 
One of the hymns which has unfortunately been going through my head way too much recently is "Sweet, Sweet Spirit."

quote:
There's a sweet sweet spirit in this place
And I know that it's the spirit of the Lord

Pretty sure of that, aren't they? And my husbands former church sang this song *every week* as the church leadership slipped further and further into various weirdnesses.

quote:
There are sweet expressions on each face
And I know that it's the presence of the Lord

Frankly, it sounds like everyone is stoned. Maybe it's just pot smoke?

quote:
Sweet Holy Spirit
Sweet heavenly dove
Stay right here with us
Filling us with your love
And for these blessings
We lift our hearts in praise (hearts in praise)
Without a doubt we'll know that we have been revived
When we shall leave this place

This last bit wouldn't be so bad, except for all that sweetness. As the song ends, teeth decay and diabetics are frantically shooting up insulin as everyone walks around smiley and dazed...

Joy
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
If the sweet sweet spirit was kahlua, I'd be right there. Mmmmm ...

Thankfully I haven't heard this one. It does remind me of the sickly oldie "I love you with the love of the lord" though.

Friends of mine taught me an alternative version:

I love you with the love of the Lord
Yes I love you with the love of the Lord
I can't stand your face
But I'm moving in His grace
So I'll love you with the love of the Lord

[Biased]
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Thank you, Hild, and welcome aboard the Ship.

Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Joy/Gill - [Projectile] [Projectile]
 
Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Robin:
That version of Silent Night is not particularly new; it appears in the Revised Church Hymnary and even the Public School Hymn Book (among others).
Robin

It is also in the old Baptist Hymn Book (1962 version). Not new at all!
 
Posted by Sir George Grey. (# 2643) on :
 
I have another example of a rewritten hymn from the aformentioned church. I'm not quite sure why they did a hatchet job on this one; as it wasn't all that 'gender-biased' in the first place. But anyway.

quote:
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

has become

quote:
Then my heart leapes, my spirit bursts in praise;
Creator God, how great you are.
Then my heart leaps, my spirit bursts in praise;
Creator God, how great you are.

So far, not so bad. But then we get this gem at the end, just to prove that choruses aren't the only domain of 'God is my Boyfriend' songs, although perhaps as this is a hymn 'I had an Affair with God during my Mid-Life Crisis' might be a better way of putting it:

quote:
Then my heart leaps, my spirit bursts in thanks;
My lover God, how true you are

(x2)

This following a reference to 'Revealing God' makes for a very odd overall effect.

Does anyone think that rewriting hymns in this way is a form of plagiarism?
 
Posted by Ravenloft (# 6781) on :
 
Well, as someone brought through youth groups with "Youth Praise"..... who can forget those "classics" "Jesus is the Saviour" - a 12-bar blues that we got severely and regularly told of for playing somewhat up-beat! And of course "Can it be true?" - on which many a youth Christian first learned to play the guitar.....

There've been many comments about re-writing, sanitising, "modernising" the words of various hymns, but I suppose the worst ones are the Christmas Carols - whoever reworked "We three kings" ala Mission Praise should be taken outside and shown the error of their ways with a bit of 2" by 4"..... When Churches are full of people who only go once a year, lyrics that scan about as effectively as that are really not wanted.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hey, Ravenloft - I remember 'Youth Praise' when it first appeared, and I liked most of the songs.....still do (when I can drag the words and music back into my ageing mind.....).

Proper music died with Mozart, though.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Sir George Grey. (# 2643) on :
 
I wonder what an icon of the 'revealing God' would depict.
 
Posted by glen moranjie (# 7011) on :
 
Talking of church songs that have disappeared over the years, is anyone still singing the one about "I cannot come to the party, don't bother me now, I have married a wife, I have bought me a cow." (Much childsh amusement swapping the words "wife" & "cow".)

I used to sing Kwm Byah ("Someone's praying Lord") complete with hand actions as a seven year old, hated it since and was appalled to see it on a songsheet in a country church recently. Having said all that, I sing an arrangement in a secular male voie choir and it does sound good.
 
Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey.:
I have another example of a rewritten hymn from the aformentioned church. I'm not quite sure why they did a hatchet job on this one; as it wasn't all that 'gender-biased' in the first place. But anyway.

quote:
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

has become

quote:
Then my heart leapes, my spirit bursts in praise;
Creator God, how great you are.
Then my heart leaps, my spirit bursts in praise;
Creator God, how great you are.

So far, not so bad.

Even that is really, really naff. If they had to rewrite it (and I dispute that) what's wrong with a minimal change of lyrics, like "Then my soul sings, my Saviour God, to you; how great you are, how great you are"?

quote:

Does anyone think that rewriting hymns in this way is a form of plagiarism?

Absolutely.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir George Grey.:
... I'm not quite sure why they did a hatchet job on this one; as it wasn't all that 'gender-biased' in the first place. But anyway.

quote:
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art...

has become

quote:
Then my heart leapes, my spirit bursts in praise;
Creator God, how great you are....

...
Does anyone think that rewriting hymns in this way is a form of plagiarism?

This looks more like a theological hatchet-job to me. Substituting "Creator" for "Saviour" is a little pointed, isn't it? Deism? Personal theology or official theology?

It's not exactly plagiarism ... but republishing modified words without permissions is a violation of copyright (potentially theirs, not yours.) And I can't imagine Stuart Hine or his literary heirs accepting this!
 
Posted by Cartwheel (# 5149) on :
 
Aaaargh! Hymns for Today's Church!

I used to go to a church that used Hymns for Today's Church a lot, and the rewriting was, um, strange. Basically, someone seems to have decided that any reference to "Thee", "Thou" or "Thine" was utterly incomprehensible and had to be changed to "You" or "Yours" (often with horrendous results as someone struggled to rewrite a verse where "Thee" was part of a rhyme) but that "man" or "men" could be left unchanged.

Now, I understand that "man" was commonly used to mean "humanity" or "generic person" when many of these hymns were written, and if we're singing the old versions then I have no problems with it at all, but that usage is dying out. I wish it was dead already. So if someone has inflicted a consciously modernised version on me then it irks me that they have decided that being inclusive is not important. I notice.

Of course, there are modern choruses that refer to "Thou" (which said church sings unaltered, btw) and modern songs which refer to "man" which also get my goat. And being inclusive isn't my sole criterion for thinking a hymn/song is ok. But Hymns for Today's Church wound me up regularly because churches think that by using it they've become modern. They haven't.
 
Posted by CJ (# 2166) on :
 
Easter Sunday morning. My first Easter as a Christian. Hymns for Today's church. The crashing anticlimax of "Yours be the Glory"

Hard to forgive
 
Posted by Koovie (# 4434) on :
 
Welcome to my life here in Kootenay. We've had a 1995 Synod resolution stating that inclusive language shall be used in all liturgies in the diocese. Some churches have extended that to their songs, singing such hits as well, "Yours Be The Glory", and "Praise My Soul, The God of Heaven", which has some horrible words such as this gem:

Instead of:

Praise, my soul, the King of heaven;
to his feet thy tribute bring....


Instead, we get...

Praise my soul, the God of heaven,
Glad of heart your carols raise...


Normally, I can deal with the inclusive language liturgies and music...but just not when they decide to change the "oldies but goodies"
 
Posted by Lillian (# 6158) on :
 
This was one of my favorite threads during my long lurkdom, and I thank you all for lots of late-night laughs. It's thrilling to finally be posting here with the two hymns that drive me craziest.

First up, the already mentioned "Standing in the Need of Prayer." Aside from the fact that it uses the word "me" four times as often as "Lord," it's just plain weird:

Oh, Lord, it's me, it's me, it's me, it's me
Standing in the need of prayer . . .


So if it's addressed "Oh, Lord," is it not itself a prayer? Why would I be telling God I need prayer? I suppose that God could inspire the people sitting next to me to pray for me, but it seems unnecessarily complicated. I've always imagined God replying in an annoyed-mom voice, "Wait for the prayer requests and tell them yourself! Do you expect me to do everything for you?"

Second, the worst of the "sex with Jesus" hymns, "Come Ye Sinners Poor and Needy":

I will arise, I will go to Jesus
He will take me in his arms
In the arms of my dear savior
O there are ten thousand charms


At least in the US I don't think it's ever really sung anymore except in the backwoodsy parts of the south and Appalachia. The melody's quite spare and beautiful, which is a shame, because ewwww.

Oh, I feel so much better now.
 
Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ravenloft:
There've been many comments about re-writing, sanitising, "modernising" the words of various hymns, but I suppose the worst ones are the Christmas Carols - whoever reworked "We three kings" ala Mission Praise should be taken outside and shown the error of their ways with a bit of 2" by 4".....

Oooh! I volunteer for that duty! Actually, I was at a parish that absolutely refused to sing that song. Not because of the kings, because it mentioned 'Orient', which we all know is so totally un-PC since you're supposed to call it 'Asia' now.
 
Posted by beachlass (# 4979) on :
 
So I finish my sermon yesterday morning, climb down from the pulpit and sit down in my chair (behind the communion table, right in front of the choir). And the choir stands up to sing, and I look at my bulletin and read "Anthem: Shine, Jesus, Shine"...

Hmmm... I don't think I know this song do I?
And yet the title is hauntingly familiar.

So the choir jumps in, and the music director thumps along with the piano... and it slowly dawns on me: I've read about this song on the Ship.

Oh dear. Must not snicker or giggle during the choir anthem. Must not.

Look at the floor, rehearse the benediction, breathe. It will end.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Anthem != "Shine Jesus Shine"
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Oh my, you've only just come across it? There's a corner of Christendom that wasn't infected? do you mind me mildly tangenting and asking what kind of church you're at and where?

Seriously, in the nineties it was impossible to get away from that song.
 
Posted by Ferinjen (# 4719) on :
 
<rant>

I played the organ (I don't usually) for Pentecost. And at my nice, ordinary, motr Anglican church we had the following hymns. Bearing in mind that this is one of the greatest feasts of the year, and that the church had A&MR long before they bought Shitting-Praise

1. Wind, Wind, Blow Away (or something equally banal and with unfortunate references for us with thinking minds!)
2. Spirit of the Living God
3. The Spirit Lives to set us free/Walk, Walk in the light
4. Be Still for the Presence of the Lord
5. Come, Holy Ghost our souls inspire (which MP has masterfully taken from plainchant into 3/4)
6. Shine Jesus Shine. [Projectile]

The first three, (certainly 1&3) have practically the same chord structure and are incredibly dull to sing (never mind play). 4) has long rivalled SJS as the not-quite-as-happy-clappy alternative when an Anglican church wants a token 'modern hymn' and 6)... what can i say? Can someone please give me a theological reason why I should refuse to play it? None of the hymns, in my opinion, are suited to accompaniment on the organ (though that's not to say I didn't give it my best whack).

Did anyone else have such a dire collection where the only decent Pentecost hymn was relegated to Communion #2?
</rant>
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Was it "There's a Wind a-blowing"?

Not a great song, but fun to play with Drop-D tuning on Guitar.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferinjen:

1. Wind, Wind, Blow Away (or something equally banal and with unfortunate references for us with thinking minds!)

Never come across this one - [MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]sounds dreadful[/Marvin]

quote:
2. Spirit of the Living God
Which version? Both are as cheerful as a funeral, though.

quote:
3. The Spirit Lives to set us free/Walk, Walk in the light
Not such a bad song, but whoever even thought it should be even considered for accompaniment on an organ should be dragged out into the streets and shot.

quote:
4. Be Still for the Presence of the Lord
[Projectile] [Projectile] [Projectile]

What I really hate about this one is the theological background from which it comes.

He comes to cleanse and heal, to minister his grace;
No work too hard for him, in faith receive from him


Innocuous enough, EXCEPT that you know, and I know, and even the church cat knows, that this is actually code for "Now we're going to have a long and emotionally charged ministry time in which the suggestible will have various words from the Lord, other people will suddenly remember a trauma from 1965, and if you're not completely delivered from it you didn't have enough faith or God doesn't like you very much" - or am I just bitter and twisted?

Of course, used as a communion hymn, it can just refer to the Presence of Christ in the sacrament, but we all know that's not how it was written, and, well, for me - too much baggage. 'Nuff said.

quote:
5. Come, Holy Ghost our souls inspire (which MP has masterfully taken from plainchant into 3/4)
I don't mind losing the plainchant - it's brilliant when the congregation can actually do it but just sad when they can't - like with Psalm chants.

quote:
6. Shine Jesus Shine. [Projectile]


'Nuff said. Perhaps it's Graham Kendrick who should be dragged out into the streets and shot? Can Matt Redman stand behind so we don't have to waste two bullets?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I always associate Be still for the presence of the Lord with the late John Smith, now of Iona...
 
Posted by Ferinjen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Was it "There's a Wind a-blowing"?

Not a great song, but fun to play with Drop-D tuning on Guitar.

No, it was definitely 'Wind, wind...' (its the blow away bit I can't remember). Somewhere in Mission Praise should you look it up. A very dull tune, with a range limited to about six semitones.

Karl - thanks for dissecting the music into easy to spit-out-chunks. But I still don't have an eloquent reason ('its Graham Kendrick' doesn't suffice!) why I should refuse to have anything to do with it. It was the Spirit of the Living Lord which has 'break me, mould me, heal me, do-whatever-you-want-to-me' line in it'. All coming out of the bad* side of modern church music which I always imagine best suited to a sock-and-sandaled, rainbow-guitar-strap, bearded long haired bloke with an adoring female hippy sidekick.


*Actually, it might not always have been bad. Possibly just overplayed. I imagine all these churches whose only source of musical entertainment was AMR for 40 years suddenly seeing the colourful covers and stick men of Mission Praise ('and its got that nice Lord for the Years Hymn the bishop had at his do') and buying it in the late 80s. 20 years on, they realise there's only about 30 'new' hymns which the congregation can actually manage to sing and the organist won't walk out in a huff if s/he's asked to play. So they get repeated ad nauseum.
 
Posted by beachlass (# 4979) on :
 
I had almost no church experience until the mid 90's and then joined an urban church with a fabulous music programme.

As a result, I am blessed with limited experience of songs which have traumatised others.

When we sang a parody of Will Your Anchor Hold at school, they had to teach me the tune. Now I don't have any idea what the real words are... the only words in my head describe the decline of women's leadership in the early church.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
But I still don't have an eloquent reason ('its Graham Kendrick' doesn't suffice!) why I should refuse to have anything to do with it.
How about:

1) it's lyrically banal,
2) it's musically naive,
3) it sounds bloody stupid on an organ?
 
Posted by cygnus (# 3294) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lillian:

[
Second, the worst of the "sex with Jesus" hymns, "Come Ye Sinners Poor and Needy":

I will arise, I will go to Jesus
He will take me in his arms
In the arms of my dear savior
O there are ten thousand charms


At least in the US I don't think it's ever really sung anymore except in the backwoodsy parts of the south and Appalachia. The melody's quite spare and beautiful, which is a shame, because ewwww.

Oh, I feel so much better now.

Is that one really any worse than (I'm sure it's been mentioned several pages back!)

By your side I would stay
In your arms I would lay*
Jesus lover of my soul
Nothing from you I withhold.

etc. etc.

* shouldn't it be "lie"? That has always bothered me.

My teenage daughter always gags when this is sung, and I have a hard time not giggling. We can't look at each other during this one.
 
Posted by cygnus (# 3294) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Was it "There's a Wind a-blowing"?

Not a great song, but fun to play with Drop-D tuning on Guitar.

I think it's

Wind wind blow on me
wind wind set me free
Wind wind my father sent
The blessed Holy Spirit.

Etc.

NOt the worst hymn around, but definitely closer to "horrible" than otherwise.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
And in what way is that worse than:

quote:

Jesu, lover of my soul
let me to thy bosom fly

?
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And in what way is that worse than:
quote:
Jesu, lover of my soul...

A friend of mine abominates the sub-genre as "My Jesus, My Boyfriend", and includes Charles Wesley in her disapproval.
 
Posted by thomasm (# 4618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And in what way is that worse than:
quote:
Jesu, lover of my soul...

A friend of mine abominates the sub-genre as "My Jesus, My Boyfriend", and includes Charles Wesley in her disapproval.
That would be considered a heresy in the Methodist Church. Wesley wrote (on the whole) briliant hymns.

Tom
 
Posted by Ferinjen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cygnus:
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Was it "There's a Wind a-blowing"?

Not a great song, but fun to play with Drop-D tuning on Guitar.

I think it's

Wind wind blow on me
wind wind set me free
Wind wind my father sent
The blessed Holy Spirit.

Etc.

NOt the worst hymn around, but definitely closer to "horrible" than otherwise.

That's the one. The tune for the chorus is exactly the same as the tune for the verse.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by thomasm:
That would be considered a heresy in the Methodist Church. Wesley wrote (on the whole) briliant hymns.

Tom

Doesn't mean everyone has to like all of them. The Anglican Church of Canada hymnbooks have a fair bit of Wesley. And Isacc Watts, whose father did jail time for not being an Anglican.
 
Posted by Norman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
I know some of you hardened posters on this thread will think I've led a very sheltered life up until now, but this morning I found, quite by accident, a copy of Mary, blessed teenage mother. I actually used to think this was a spoof hymn title cooked up by someone on SoF, but since I was informed it was real, it's been this long before I clapped eyes on it.

OH -- MY -- GOD.

[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]
[Ultra confused] [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused]
[Help]
[Projectile]

I really don't know what to say. I'll come back in about a year and see if I've come up with words to describe it.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Norman the Organ:
...I found, quite by accident, a copy of Mary, blessed teenage mother. ...

Author and publisher, and copyright date? Such an item should be well-documented, if only as a horrible example.
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I hope someone has revived and restored Norman with GIN by now.......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Norman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Norman the Organ:
...I found, quite by accident, a copy of Mary, blessed teenage mother. ...

Author and publisher, and copyright date? Such an item should be well-documented, if only as a horrible example.
Can't remember offhand, someone else will know I'm sure - but it can be found in The Complete Anglican Hymns Old And New - along with a lot of other claptrap, and some decent hymns with their harmonies tampered with.

Yesterday I came across one called I Watch the Sunrise Lighting the Sky (also in TCAHO&N)... another load of vacuous rubbish, but mild compared with Mary Blessed Teenage Mother.

GIN - quick, bring me GIN!


(PS: Dyfrig mentions Mary Blessed Teenage Mother in his "Pearls Before Swine: The Parish Magazine of St. Bastard's and the Nibbles" thread in MW [Big Grin] )

[ 04. July 2004, 14:41: Message edited by: Norman the Organ ]
 
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
If anyone's interested, some lines from "Mary-the-unmentionable-hymn" are here.

Funny (?) enough, the writer is full of praise. But, please, just look at the text... Aargh!!! [Disappointed]

Blessings
 
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :
 
Can anyone beat the Andy Park song "Take Me Away" in terms of the acute embarrassment of the lyrics:

quote:
I am looking for, I am longing for the place
Where I can lay my head upon your breast.
I am looking for, This place where you will pour,
Your oil over me, all over me.

This caused no end of hilarity at our Worship Group practices, but, sadly, we bottled out of ever actually playing it in a congregational setting. Shame, really, as it's a pretty good tune.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I am looking for, I am longing for the place
Where I can lay my head upon your breast.
I am looking for, This place where you will pour,
Your oil over me, all over me.

Sounds like the Psalms to me ... which are full of imagery that doesn't work for 20+th century people, like Psalm 133:1-2
quote:
1 How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity!

2 It is like precious oil poured on the head,
running down on the beard,
running down on Aaron's beard,
down upon the collar of his robes.

Just doesn't match my notion of pleasant.
 
Posted by Norman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
If anyone's interested, some lines from "Mary-the-unmentionable-hymn" are here.

Funny (?) enough, the writer is full of praise. But, please, just look at the text... Aargh!!! [Disappointed]

Blessings

Ah, but the other two verses are MUCH worse than that! [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Lil (# 4948) on :
 
Every year in Beverley Minster there is the St John of Beverley service. Without fail, the congregation sings a hymn to the tune of "For those in peril on the sea". Everyone I have ever spoken to loathes it, but no-one is brave enough to remove it from the programme.

There are five verses. Here is an extract:
to appreciate it fully, I suggest you sing it.

"In days of old, in country ways
In Yorkshire woods, John sang thy praise
Each year upon the springtime wold
He saw the primroses unfold:
The bleating lambs, the breaking sea,
God's gift to man, eternally"

Verse two concludes with the line

"But as he served in lands of Kent
His winging thoughts homeward went"

We shall draw a veil over verse three.

Verse four tells us:

"But as he journeyed to and fro
Through summer's heat, through winter's snow,
The church where most he loved to pray
Stands where our minster stands today.
In age he came from work set free
And chose for rest blest Beverley"

The fifth verse is too unbearable to commit to print.
 
Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
Prehaps we should have a ship meet for all instrumentalists to record these "Crappy Choruses and Horrible Hymns" onto a CD. Proceeds could go to charity.
Would you be willing to buy the featured Crappy Choruses on a CD if it was for charity?

Would anybody be interested in doing something like that?

-103
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Alternatively, you could probably make more money for charity (since the overhead would be lower and there would probably be more of a market) by compiling a complete list of all the CC&HHs. I'd buy it as a reference list of what to avoid.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
We could make it a Chipmunk album! [Yipee]
 
Posted by Lil (# 4948) on :
 
I've just remembered my old school song. Do school songs count?

It went:

Down where the Sussex sea
Flows by caressingly
Warmed by the benediction of the sun
Hope fires our hearts and wills
And our lithe bodies fills
With vigour as we leap and dance and run.

(I think there was a second verse, but mercifully I have forgotten it).

Here may we seek and find
The treasures of the mind,
The thoughts of sages since the world began
That we may dum de dah
According to thy plan
For wisdom shows the tboughts of God to man.

There was a tremendous descant to the last verse, which reduced us all to excruciating spasms of mirth at Speech Day.
 
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on :
 
Hmm, school songs are so dire that they're worthy of their own thread I think. I'm going off to Heaven to start one now and post my school song, which yes, I can still remember.
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
On the contrary to the Beverley minster experience, the Durham cathedral 'hymn' (or at least the most recent one) isn't bad. Its set to Woodlands (Tell out my soul) and starts 'Ring Christ, ring Mary, Benedict and Bede' (which are the names of the bells in the tower).

[ 12. July 2004, 14:07: Message edited by: Ferijen ]
 
Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
I'm feeling slightly traumatised by the rendition of "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind" that I had to endure last Sunday. Never mind whether it is actually a Christian Hymn or not (no need to tell us again Ken). Try singing it at a pacy Allegro tempo accompanied by guitar and full drum kit. [Help]

BK
 
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferinjen:
4. Be Still for the Presence of the Lord


4) has long rivalled SJS as the not-quite-as-happy-clappy alternative when an Anglican church wants a token 'modern hymn'

Happy clappy? Be Still seems to me about as far from happy clappy as you can possibly get! I'd put it in a similar genre to Guide Me, Oh Thou Great Redeemer, or possibly For All The Saints.
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Ferinjen:
4. Be Still for the Presence of the Lord


4) has long rivalled SJS as the not-quite-as-happy-clappy alternative when an Anglican church wants a token 'modern hymn'

Happy clappy? Be Still seems to me about as far from happy clappy as you can possibly get! I'd put it in a similar genre to Guide Me, Oh Thou Great Redeemer, or possibly For All The Saints.
Whilst I agree that happy-clappy is possibly overstating its modernity, it surely can't be in the same category as Guide me, Oh thou great redeemer?

Judgement call, anyone?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
It's in the same category as SJS and anything else that Songs of Fluffiness might print.

It's in the "Don't Play When Karl's Here Because The Expression On His Face Will Send The Communion Wine Sour" category.
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Karl, thank you.

Though personally I don't think it is that bad, just overplayed.
 
Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
Oh, I dunno. I quite like "Be still..." as a communion hymn, and I could be wrong but I think I've only heard it as such, in both low and MOTR Anglican, and in Methodist churches. There's nothing wrong with a reminder of the Real Presence.

It beats playing spot the heresy with first person MP stuff, which is a temptation I feel I should resist around the Blessed Sacrament.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I refer the previous two posters to my earlier comments on this song:

quote:
What I really hate about this one is the theological background from which it comes.

He comes to cleanse and heal, to minister his grace;
No work too hard for him, in faith receive from him

Innocuous enough, EXCEPT that you know, and I know, and even the church cat knows, that this is actually code for "Now we're going to have a long and emotionally charged ministry time in which the suggestible will have various words from the Lord, other people will suddenly remember a trauma from 1965, and if you're not completely delivered from it you didn't have enough faith or God doesn't like you very much" - or am I just bitter and twisted?

Of course, used as a communion hymn, it can just refer to the Presence of Christ in the sacrament, but we all know that's not how it was written, and, well, for me - too much baggage. 'Nuff said.


 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I always associate "Be still..." with the late John Smith. The only man who could have stopped Tony Blair from becoming Prime Minister.

The day he died the BBCr4 Today Programme interviewed his church minister. There was a choir practice going on, and they were singing that song. The minister said that John would have been at the choir practice had he been alive.

That aside, it's quite a good song, and not at all fluffy-bunny. Even if it is sung to a barely disguised ripped-off Dylan tune.
 
Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
Sorry Karl, I had read your post, but I haven't got the experiences that would cause me to break into a cold sweat at hearing it.

As for "borrowing" tunes, I seem to recall from my occasionally nominal Methodist childhood that one Charles Wesley wasn't averse to setting lyrics to popular tunes of the day. Can anyone back this up?
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
I've heard that too, and that the familiar dirges were added later. No one's ever provided evidence to back it up.

Hymns & Psalms, one of the worst adverst for traditional Hymns ever.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
I've heard that too, and that the familiar dirges were added later. No one's ever provided evidence to back it up.

I suspect that your "familiar dirges" often are the "popular tunes of the day".

Anyway, of the half-dozen Wesley hymns most often sung in churches today, approximately all of them are usually sung to very lively and stirring tunes - And Can it Be! Hark the Herald Angels Sing! Not dirges at all.
 
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Ferinjen:
4. Be Still for the Presence of the Lord


4) has long rivalled SJS as the not-quite-as-happy-clappy alternative when an Anglican church wants a token 'modern hymn'

Happy clappy? Be Still seems to me about as far from happy clappy as you can possibly get! I'd put it in a similar genre to Guide Me, Oh Thou Great Redeemer, or possibly For All The Saints.
Whilst I agree that happy-clappy is possibly overstating its modernity, it surely can't be in the same category as Guide me, Oh thou great redeemer?

Judgement call, anyone?

I was, of course, talking musical style. Perhaps we sing it very differently to you...

I first sang Be Still in a (non-Church-based) children's choir; in a lovely arrangement that started out with two soloists, went into harmony on the second verse and brought in a descant on verse three. It was very slow, and incredibly moving.

That carried over into our church, because two of the soloists from the choir attended, and so were often called upon to sing the first verse for us as well. (This in a church where we hardly ever have soloists, don't have a choir, don't sing anything with harmony...) So we tended to sing it in a similar style to when I sung it in the choir; much more thoughtful and pensive than the usual wave-your-hands-in-the-air stuff we do.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
RE 'Be still..'

Ken wrote:
quote:
That aside, it's quite a good song, and not at all fluffy-bunny. Even if it is sung to a barely disguised ripped-off Dylan tune.


I agree.

J
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cygnus:
By your side I would stay
In your arms I would lay*
Jesus lover of my soul
Nothing from you I withhold.

etc. etc.

* shouldn't it be "lie"? That has always bothered me.

Indeed. My brain on first encountering this (at CU) went 'what? an egg or the table?' and proceeded to sing 'lie'. It might not rhyme but it is at least English.

GeordiedownSouth quoth:
quote:
Hymns & Psalms, one of the worst adverst for traditional Hymns ever.
Heresy.

Carys
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
And bad spelling as well.

But I stand by it. Hymns grew on me a bit when I got to other churches that used hymns but a different book.

Can't just remember the little red books from when I was about eight. Maybe they were better.
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
'little red books' - sound suspiciously like Hymns Ancient and Modern (a link to a picture of the New Standard edition)

And I like them. Not as good as Hymns Old and New (Liturgical Version) or even the NEH at what they do, but a hell of a lot better than Mission Praise.
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Nope, these were specifically Methodist books. With tiny print. And over a thousand hymns in them.
 
Posted by Custard123 (# 5402) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
'little red books' - sound suspiciously like Hymns Ancient and Modern

Don't you mean "Hymns Ancient and More Ancient"?
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
Nope, these were specifically Methodist books. With tiny print. And over a thousand hymns in them.

That sounds possibly like the ?Methodist Hymnal. We have my great-grandmother's copy somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it is little and red and has many hymns. It also, IIRC, was great at having the music for hymns where AMR (or A&MA!) suggested something utterly unsingable and/or unknown.
 
Posted by corpusdelicti (# 5124) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
'little red books' - sound suspiciously like Hymns Ancient and Modern

Don't you mean "Hymns Ancient and More Ancient"?
Not that ancient. Does A&M still include the truly risible " God of concrete, God of steel"?
 
Posted by Wandering Crucifer (# 7497) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
And I like them. Not as good as Hymns Old and New (Liturgical Version) or even the NEH at what they do, but a hell of a lot better than Mission Praise.

I can't remember much of Ancient & Mouldy, but I don't think HO&N is all that great. Our organist sometimes complains about the dreadful harmonies to be found therein.

HO&N also has several hymns that are "alt.", i.e. their words have been mangled. One of the worst modernisations is Be Thou My Vision (certainly close to the HO&N version).

The meter has been changed from 10 11 11 11 to 10 10 10 10 but the tune has been scarcely altered so that the words no longer fit properly.

While I'm on this mini-rant, I find anything where the words have been altered annoying, especially when I can quite happily sing the old words without looking at the book, e.g.:

Great is Your Faithfulness. (PDF file, HTML version here.)

The solution of course is just to sing the original words (in order to educate those around you, of course [Two face] )
 
Posted by rajm (# 5434) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by corpusdelicti:
Does A&M still include the truly risible " God of concrete, God of steel"?

Don't think it ever did - it was in '100 hymns for today' (or the day before yesterday).
Though I think some local(?) versions of A&M may have bound the supplement together with A&M
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Ancient and Modern (New Standard) (c.1983) contains One hundred hymns for today and its successor (More Hymns for today?), along with a severely slimmed down version of Ancient and Modern (Revised) (c.1950s?)

Hymns Old and New has some horrendous re-writing of hymns - they've completely re-written a few hymns (read the blurb at the front for further information, Stand up, Stand up for Jesus has been re-hashed to avoid militarisitic/jingositicism). However, I haven't noticed this in the Liturgical version (which is more RC than the standard version). This could be that because I've rarely used HO&NLV in a service, so I'm willing to be told otherwise.

The Liturgical version,IMHO, contains the widest and best selection of music though.
 
Posted by Norman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering Crucifer:
...I don't think HO&N is all that great. Our organist sometimes complains about the dreadful harmonies to be found therein.

Oh yes indeed. They seem to think that the harmonies of hymn tunes are of no importance. Unbelievable.

quote:
I find anything where the words have been altered annoying
Mission Praise carol sheets, anyone?! [Eek!] Someone was on something when they put those together.

[ 28. July 2004, 12:13: Message edited by: Norman the Organ ]
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Mission Praise did Carol Sheets?

[Ultra confused]

What's wrong with the standard Biblelands' Bethlehem Carol Sheet? (Aside from the fact that no church has a full set of the same copy, so its 'Carol number 4 from the green sheet, which is carol number 32 on the yellow version.')
 
Posted by Norman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
I think they're Mission Praise ones, though I might be wrong - anyone else come across them? They are especially noticeable by the fact that in O Little Town of Bethlehem some loony has seen fit to take one of the verses, cut it in half and put the two halves back together the other way round - so you sing the second half of the verse first [Eek!]
 
Posted by thomasm (# 4618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Norman the Organ:
I think they're Mission Praise ones, though I might be wrong - anyone else come across them? They are especially noticeable by the fact that in O Little Town of Bethlehem some loony has seen fit to take one of the verses, cut it in half and put the two halves back together the other way round - so you sing the second half of the verse first [Eek!]

I believe they were called "Christmas Praise" and i think the Christian bookshop I work in sells them! (still)

Tom

[ 28. July 2004, 15:11: Message edited by: thomasm ]
 
Posted by corpusdelicti (# 5124) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Norman the Organ:
I think they're Mission Praise ones, though I might be wrong - anyone else come across them? They are especially noticeable by the fact that in O Little Town of Bethlehem some loony has seen fit to take one of the verses, cut it in half and put the two halves back together the other way round - so you sing the second half of the verse first [Eek!]

It might not just be down to Mission Praise, as horrible as I find that book. I've seen many carol sheets mix up the "O morning stars together" verse so that it starts "For Christ was born of Mary", despite the fact that it clearly doesn't scan.
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Norman the Organ:
I think they're Mission Praise ones, though I might be wrong - anyone else come across them? They are especially noticeable by the fact that in O Little Town of Bethlehem some loony has seen fit to take one of the verses, cut it in half and put the two halves back together the other way round - so you sing the second half of the verse first [Eek!]

Not unusual, Norman, I am sorry to say. I presume you mean the O morning Stars/For Christ is born of Mary thing. I tried looking on the internet for an explanation of this, but didn't get far. I did, however, find this little snippet. A bit off-topic I suppose, but I wanted to share it.

[ 28. July 2004, 15:36: Message edited by: Ferijen ]
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
quote:
Originally posted by Norman the Organ:
I think they're Mission Praise ones, though I might be wrong - anyone else come across them? They are especially noticeable by the fact that in O Little Town of Bethlehem some loony has seen fit to take one of the verses, cut it in half and put the two halves back together the other way round - so you sing the second half of the verse first [Eek!]

Not unusual, Norman, I am sorry to say. I presume you mean the O morning Stars/For Christ is born of Mary thing.
Indeed. That verse seems to exist in both orders. We had to be careful because the 'St Nicholas Carolbook' (a thin volume not quite A4 in size which I've never seen anywhere else) had it one way round whilst Carols for Choir and AMNS (which the congregation were using) had it the other way round. I think the St Nicholas Carolbook must have contained the descant as I can't think why else we'd have been using it over the other two.

quote:
I tried looking on the internet for an explanation of this, but didn't get far. I did, however, find this little snippet. A bit off-topic I suppose, but I wanted to share it.
That's wonderful, Ferijen.

I love the comment on It came upon a midnight clear --
quote:
Reflects social gospel.
and on The First Noel
quote:
Verse 6 -- Expression "with His blood mankind hath bought" could be misconstrued to imply universal salvation.
Ooh, dangerous. The social gospel and a possible implication of universal salvation. Can't find either of those in scripture!


This one confused me.
quote:
#122 -- WHO IS HE IN YONDER STALL?
Text & Tune: Benjamin R. Hanby, 1866
Verses 4 and 5 questionable.

Not knowing this hymn at all, I looked it up in Mission Praise which gives verse 4 as
quote:
Who is He, that stands and weeps
at the gave where Lazarus sleeps

Seems Biblical to me! I assume that the version in the Living Hymns hymnal has more verses!

Carys
[typo and formatting]

[ 14. August 2004, 19:40: Message edited by: Carys ]
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
This one confused me.
quote:
#122 -- WHO IS HE IN YONDER STALL?
Text & Tune: Benjamin R. Hanby, 1866
Verses 4 and 5 questionable.

Not knowing this hymn at all, I looked it up in Mission Praise which gives verse 4 as
quote:
Who is He, that stands and weeps
at the gave where Lazarus sleeps

Seems Biblical to me! I assume that the version in the Living Hymns hymnal has more verses!

Aah. I've been exploring the rest of that site and have found a longer version of the condemnation of Christmas carols which makes it clear what has happened. Who is he has fewer verses in their version. Their complaint is
quote:
Note verse 4--Strictly speaking, Christ on the cross asked the Father to forgive them, He did not pronounce blessings. Verse 5 suggests an improper emphasis on healing.
So forgiveness isn't a blessing? and Christ doesn't heal?????

This is a very strange site. It has a long essay on why we shouldn't even celebrate Christmas.

Carys
 
Posted by Ian H. (# 944) on :
 
A strange site indeed.

One of their complaints about "O Come All Ye Faithful" had me laughing:

quote:
"born this happy morning" (v. 3) ... Jesus was...most likely was born in the evening
I also like the way they comment on the authors (note the "s around Father):

quote:
Text: "Father" Joseph Mohr, 1818 (Roman Catholic priest);
Tune: Franz Grüber, 1818 (Roman Catholic)

...

Text: Nahum Tate, 1700 (died a drunk, 1715)


 
Posted by feryjen (# 4719) on :
 
I wondered if anyone was going to take me up on that link - that's the problem with dead horses. It really is a wonderful site - I found the longer thing on Christmas carols quite, uh, well, quite. As for their comments about Roman Catholocism...
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I was intrigued by their comment on "O come, all ye faithful":

"The advisability of encouraging people to think in terms of adoring a newborn baby is questionable at best."

That newborn baby wasn't God Incarnate?

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Reading a bit further, on "God rest ye merry gentlemen", this line made me laugh out loud at work:

"It is historic fact that Christ was not born on "Christmas Day"!"

Really?

Thurible
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Does that mean we ought to cancel Christmas?

(oh hang on...the Puritans already did that...)
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
Does that mean we ought to cancel Christmas?

(oh hang on...the Puritans already did that...)

According to that site then yes! They agree with the Puritans (and give many reasons for it)

Carys

[Wrong sort of bracket and then attempt to use html type syntax which I didn't solve in the edit time. Could a host delete the first attempt please][Yes - previous post deleted]

[ 20. August 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I had to play 'Shine, Jesus, Shine' on Sunday. [Frown]

I thought (perhaps overly optimistically) that no-one sang that anymore.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
If only that were true, seasick!

Thurible
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
We live in hope...
 
Posted by Vox Angelica (# 8353) on :
 
I had to play 'Shine, Jesus, Shine' on Sunday. I thought (perhaps overly optimistically) that no-one sang that anymore.

Now I know the reason it p***** with rain on Sunday [Tear] Vox sub mare
 
Posted by The Venomous Bede (# 7991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I had to play 'Shine, Jesus, Shine' on Sunday. [Frown]

I thought (perhaps overly optimistically) that no-one sang that anymore.

I put it into our services about once every 6 months as a sort of penance. It's only slightly better than being stung by wasps.
 
Posted by cgp (# 8267) on :
 
Have just discovered this thread - and have spent the last forty minutes wiping the tears out of my eyes and trying not to wake the whole family by giggling too loudly.

I've skimmed most of the thread, but haven't seen my pet hate mentioned. (Apologies if I missed it.) That amazing song called "Joy is the Flag"

Joy is the flag flown high from the castle of my heart,
The castle of my heart
The castle of my heart
Joy is the flag flown high from the castle of my heart,
For the king is in residence there.

Let it fly in the sky let the whole world know,
Let the whole world know
Let the whole world know
Let it fly in the sky let the whole world know,
That the king is in residence there.

Sung complete with waving arms at the appropriate moments. And sung repeatedly for years. And my mother's name is Joy - which led to some interesting mental images!! As did "The trees of the field" which starts "you shall go out with Joy......" [Smile]
 
Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
And a hostly welcome to you, cgp. It's nice to see you aboard.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cgp:
... And my mother's name is Joy - which led to some interesting mental images!! As did "The trees of the field" which starts "you shall go out with Joy......" [Smile]

One of our choir members (there are only four to six) is named Joy, and the same odd thoughts do tend to come around.
 
Posted by cgp (# 8267) on :
 
Thank you for your "hostly welcome" TonyK!
 
Posted by ICCM - SouthEast (# 8290) on :
 
It asks the question "What is Worship?" - If we are to look at what worship is, and the different methods of worship. Music and singing is in the top 3 methodologies. The reason you find hmyns and songs and choruses hideous, or nasty or boring, is that you as worship leaders have not taken the proper time to understand the particular piece, research it and bring it to life. As a worship leader in my own church, my responsibility is to enable the congregation to come into the presence of God and worship freely. I do this by taking a 300 year old song, or a recent christian song and take it off the page, relate the words, the music, examine the key it's in, look at the place it appeasrs in the searvice, what's the reflection on the other music, the sermon, the time of the year..... It's very complicated, and is a fine art... Don't cry down music/hymns/songs unless you can write something better. When you get under the skin of a particular song/hymn/chorus and actually take the time to understand it, understand the politics of the day that caused the composer to have the holy Spirit move them to penn it, then you start to understand the song, and can then relate it to your 2004 congregation. A prime example is the owrk of Thomas Ken. The Doxology? go and do some research... and enjoy your music. All of it is worthwhile, it just needs to be placed properly and with the right care.....
 
Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
And when it isn't, it ends up on this thread [Smile]
 
Posted by Tabby Cat (# 4561) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ICCM - SouthEast:
...snip...

Or you could attend a workshop on worship-song-writing by the Rev. Gerald Ambulance. I really feel that his hour-long workshop at Greenbelt on Monday night really just inspired us all to go away and write some wonderful songs.
 
Posted by Ñorman the Organ (# 5477) on :
 
Ah, thank you, now I understand where I have been going wrong all these years, and I shall look at my copy of Mission Praise and understand from now on that it can be a useful thing.

I discovered yesterday that it's perfect for propping open the lid of the church piano [Snigger]
 
Posted by Vox Angelica (# 8353) on :
 
I discovered yesterday that it's perfect for propping open the lid of the church piano [Snigger]


Sorry Norman, but the only use for Mission Praise is to help your local authority maintain its re-cycling quota. In order to make maximum use of MP, you should send a bulk delivery to your nearest rubbish re-cycling dump. Retaining a copy in your church, even in a menial capacity, "could seriously damage your [musical] health".

Vox
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vox Angelica:
I discovered yesterday that it's perfect for propping open the lid of the church piano [Snigger]

Sorry Norman, but the only use for Mission Praise is to help your local authority maintain its re-cycling quota. In order to make maximum use of MP, you should send a bulk delivery to your nearest rubbish re-cycling dump. Retaining a copy in your church, even in a menial capacity, "could seriously damage your [musical] health".

Vox

MP does have one redeeming feature (which I discovered on Sunday night), it sets Breathe on me, Breath of God to Trentham and Take my life to Nottingham which are my preferred tunes to those hymns. It even manages not to have mangled the words to those hymns. Oh and it doesn't omit the promise to follow julie from O Jesus I have promised (unlike Hymns and Psalms which doesn't have that verse).

Carys
 
Posted by Newman's Own+ (# 420) on :
 
As usual, the full flavour of this one is unobtainable without the dreadful tune, but it still merits inclusion:

Chorus:
To Be Alive!
To Be Alive, and feeling free,
And to have everyone in our family,
To Be Alive! In every way!
Oh how great it is to be alive.

Every day there's a newness,
Something else to do.
The dawn of life is upon us,
So let the gladness ring through.

Ring the bell of new freedom*
Teach your brother to give.
For the new way of living
Is something we can now give.

*Presumably someone read Revelation and misinterpreted references to the church of Philadelphia?
 
Posted by The Venomous Bede (# 7991) on :
 
OK, so Mission Praise is pretty bad at its worst (and at its worst it does have the Dambusters March), but it does have over 1000 hymns in it.

For the really worst stuff you have to look at The Scottish Psalter 1929. Psalms mangled so that they rhyme! This is their version of Psalm 22:

My God, My God, why hast thou me
forsaken? why so far
Art thou from helping me, and from
my words that roaring are?
All day, my God, to thee I cry,
yet am not heard by thee
And in the season of the night
I cannot silent be.

But thou art holy, thou that dost
inhabit Israel's praise
Our fathers hop'd in thee, they hop'd
and thou didst them release.
When unto thee they sent their cry,
to them deliv'rance came:
Because they put their trust in thee,
they were not put to shame.

It goes on for another page and a half, but I really cant be bothered to type it out. My 80 year old mother says that metrical psalms forced her out of the Presbyterians and made her an Anglican! So I suppose they did some good then [Snigger]
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Metrical psalms are horrid poetry, but some of the tunes are very stirring if played properly. I used to have a problem with hymns that seemed [Biased] to merge into the Lieder genre, such as

"I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses...."

Guess I'm so old, and most of =you= are so young, that you'll never have heard that one....
 
Posted by quirky_beth (# 5696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by cgp:
... And my mother's name is Joy - which led to some interesting mental images!! As did "The trees of the field" which starts "you shall go out with Joy......" [Smile]

One of our choir members (there are only four to six) is named Joy, and the same odd thoughts do tend to come around.
One of our choristers, yet another Joy, used to throw things when we sung that in church! Mission Praise at 20 paces...NOT GOOD! Then her mother became our deaconess, so the song was banned forevermore!
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Got it at last! [Big Grin] This one has been worrying away at me for months. Have any of you noticed the simiarity between Rebecca St Jame's 'This is the air I breathe,' and Whitney Houston's 'I will always love youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!?'
 
Posted by Bishop's Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hey, Leetle Masha - I remember 'I come to the garden alone....'! At the little tin tabernacle I used to go to, we often had the LP of this played (along with other Jim Reeves songs) as 'musak' before the service.

I kid you not.

Ian J.
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Metrical psalms are horrid poetry, but some of the tunes are very stirring if played properly. I used to have a problem with hymns that seemed [Biased] to merge into the Lieder genre, such as

"I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses...."

Guess I'm so old, and most of =you= are so young, that you'll never have heard that one....

You misjudge the number of old codgers here on the Ship, Leetle Masha.

I not only know "In the Garden", but have sung it at funerals many times and I don't have to look much at the text, because I learned it as a child when my Dad got on a Tennessee Ernie Ford kick.

Rock of Ages, Bringing in the Sheaves, Sweet Hour of Prayer, The Old Rugged Cross, etc., all there in my pagan childhood memory banks.
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
[Yipee] So good to know there are fellow codgers around! If one has problems with "In the Garden", they can always try my method of imagining I was St. Thérèse of Lisieux and I was meditating on the Mystical Marriage.

I have a theory that as the "good old songs" such as "Bringing in the Sheaves" and "Rock of Ages" lost their relevance for the younger worshippers, church musicians sought something more up-to-date and went a bit overboard with the "praise songs". Soon, the hymnody of most of the western churches became a bit oversimplified, with the result that those who had learned to prefer music with a deeper theological import quickly tired of the new stuff.

The challenge now is to devise some way of making hymns more appealing without losing their theological value.

Alas, I'm not enough of a musicologist or theologian to be much help in that department, but I do sympathize with all those who would love to see a little more =oomph= in hymnody.
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
This one's for Ian J: Your Grace, it's one thing to hear the Jim Reeves version of "In the Garden" played on a record-player, and quite another to hear it played on a reed-organ, pumped with the feet (kerflop, kerflop heard beneath the music). If the tremolo stop is stuck in the "on" position, one needs the grace of fortitude to get through all the stanzas.

Ah, youth, where have you flown....
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
I just noticed a new thread on "What Makes a Hymn a Hymn", so I think I'll wander over there to see what I can learn about hymns in general. Thanks for all the excellent input on this thread--in my humble view, stoic (or blind) acceptance of anything (including hymns) that does not seem conducive to good worship is hard on the soul. Thanks for your discussions! [Cool]
 
Posted by Zeke (# 3271) on :
 
Oh, yeah, I remember that hymn, the one about Andy. Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me....
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Yep, that's 'im all right. [Smile]
 
Posted by The Venomous Bede (# 7991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:

"I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses...."


Sounds fun, please can I have a copy?

"I am just going outside and may be some time" Captain Lawrence Oates
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Venomous Bede:
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:

"I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses...."


Sounds fun, please can I have a copy?


see (and hear!) here [Projectile]
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Thanks for the link, Gracious!

I clicked on the link and played it for my cousin Andy, (see post above on how Andy walks with me, Andy talks with me, etc.) but I think Andy felt the same way I do about it - he scurried quickly hame to his wee flat in Glasgow, whistling "There Is Power, Power, Wonderworking Power" through his remaining teeth.

I suppose [Confused] Andy and I tend to think it's a bit on the fluffy-bunny side, but maybe we're not understanding it properly.
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Andy had an idea that I want to share with you--Andy suggested that "In the Garden" could be a song depicting the spiritual state of St. Mary Magdalene when she encountered the Risen Lord in the Garden on her way to His tomb. Remember (said Andy) that she didn't recognise Him at first, thought He might be a gardener or somebody who had taken away the Lord's body. Then He said, "Mary", and she knew it was Jesus, Risen from the dead. So that old hymn is a kind of word-picture of how St. Mary Magdalene prayed in the Garden once she recognised the Lord.

Thanks to Gracious Rebel (and dear Andy)--I went to the link and went all through that hymn again, and I think I can see St. Mary Magdalene in it. [Smile]
 
Posted by The Venomous Bede (# 7991) on :
 
So can I. Many thanks
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
Last weekend we had harvest festival, and of course sang Come, ye Thankful People, Come. I decided that the theology of the third and fourth verses was pretty noxious in that:

The third verse seems to glory in the thought that some people will go to Hell come Judgement.

The fourth, depending on how you read it, suggests that the church is free from sin and sorrow.

Besides, isn't calling for Judgement "right now" a sin?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I think the pivotal line is the first of Verse 4 - "Even so, Lord quickly come"

In other words, yes there are some unfortunate and undesireable things that are going to happen in verse 3, but the benefits after all this are so good that it's worth it. Only after the end will the church be free of sin and sorrow.

Now that might also be questionable theology, but I think that's what it's saying.

The supposed call for judgement "right now" is no more than the "Maranatha" that has been the prayer of the church for 2000 years.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
Last weekend we had harvest festival, and of course sang Come, ye Thankful People, Come. I decided that the theology of the third and fourth verses was pretty noxious in that:

I looked the hymn up in AMNS (because I could remember the number (aaargh)) and couldn't see the problem, but then I noticed the telling asterix which means that it has been altered, comparing it with NEH the alteration is quite extensive.

quote:

The third verse seems to glory in the thought that some people will go to Hell come Judgement.

I don't read the bit about the tares (which is in AMNS) like that necessarily. If one takes it that we are all a mixture of wheat and tares and that the bad stuff in us goes (rather than some people being the tares and others the wheat). Maybe this is just me being strange though.

quote:

The fourth, depending on how you read it, suggests that the church is free from sin and sorrow.

Besides, isn't calcling for Judgement "right now" a sin?

Note the subjunctive in the third line:
All be safely gathered
Aah, checking the link, the version in NEH is different to the one linked to, so this verse is different. In the NEH version, we are talking about the 'Church triumphant' and it is future (hence the subjunctive) and i think that saying that the Church triumphant will be free from sorrow and sin is perfectly fine -- 'he will wipe away all tears'. The version linked to is the least clear of the three I have consulted.

Carys
 
Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own+:
I cannot recall the entire verse, but it began with:

Here comes Jesus.
See him walking on the water.
He lifts me up, and he helps me to stand.

Flashbacks! Flashbacks!
[Ultra confused]

After that it goes:

Here comes Jesus,
he's the master of the waves that roll.
Here comes Jesus, let him take your hand.


I haven't thought of this song for years, but I remember it from the 70s as well. Sunday school in our ELCA congregation. (Well, it was ALC back then--definitely not charismatic for what it's worth.)

I have no idea what the verses are, but yeesh, it's stuck in my head now.
 
Posted by anglicanrascal (# 3412) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
Last weekend we had harvest festival, and of course sang Come, ye Thankful People, Come. I decided that the theology of the third and fourth verses was pretty noxious in that:

The third verse seems to glory in the thought that some people will go to Hell come Judgement.

...

Besides, isn't calling for Judgement "right now" a sin?

The verse seems to imply that it it "offences" rather than "offenders" that will be taken to Hell. Not brilliant theology, I suppose.

The hope that Jesus will come quickly in judgement recurs in the Bible. "Maranatha - come, Lord Jesus" is the thought that the Revelation ends with. It's found in other hymns too - notably "Lo he comes with clouds descending". When I see what's happening in the world, it's a prayer I often pray.

Pax,
ar
 
Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
Oh Lord. If I hear "The Shepherd's Pipe Carol" ONE MORE TIME I will not be responsible for my actions.

...on the road to BETH-le-hem.

It has been going through my head for hours. What have we done, O Lord, to deserve your wrath in sending John Rutter to arrange music in his thrice-sickly-sugary way? He has done some decent work, why have you not limited it to that? Why, O Lord, do we have to hear "King Jesus Hath a Garden"? Why?
 
Posted by ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Someone I'm starting to know better from my church stuck up for Mission Praise thus:

'On the whole its awful, but it has some great Graham Kendrick stuff in it'.

[Projectile]

How can I convince her the error of her ways?

And Laura, John Rutter was sent to this earth to demonstrate that it doesn't matter how many key changes you put in a piece of music, the same melody over and over again may get repetitive.
 
Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Oh Lord. If I hear "The Shepherd's Pipe Carol" ONE MORE TIME I will not be responsible for my actions.

...on the road to BETH-le-hem.

That's not how you sing it! It goes:

On the road to BE ... .... .... thle - hem!

You're not allowed to put the th in until an appropriate gesture from the conductor. I remember when we were learning it, we'd have to wait a variable amount of time there, just to teach us not to add it in too early [Smile]


[/tangent]

Amorya
 
Posted by Whiteadder (# 8983) on :
 
Talking about crappy choruses, I may just be completely unspiritual but does anyone else find excessive repetition of words in choruses annoying?

For example the, otherwise fine, worship song "Light of the World" that repeats the word altogether three times in the chorus...

"You're altogether lovely,
Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me."

(Man, statistically that's exactly 50% of the whole chorus occupied by the same word.)

And then there's that energetic "Wake up my soul" that, although short, has the word "run" in it 11 times!

"I'll RUN for you, my God and king,
I'll RUN as one who RUNs to win,
I'm pressing on, not giving in,
I will RUN, I will RUN for you my king."

(and it goes on in an equally runny fashion)

And finally, I will not be responsible for my actions if I hear another worship song with endless repetition of the word "Holy" (three times, of course). Okay, I know it says it in Isaiah but can we get over this, please?

Okay, that's my rant, feel free to shoot me down!
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Whiteadder:
...
(Man, statistically that's exactly 50% of the whole chorus occupied by the same word.)...

Okay, that's my rant, feel free to shoot me down!

Psalm 118 has a similar structure:
quote:


1 Give thanks to the LORD , for he is good;

his love endures forever.

2 Let Israel say:

"His love endures forever."

3 Let the house of Aaron say:

"His love endures forever."

4 Let those who fear the LORD say:

"His love endures forever."

But there is such a thing as too much too much too much repetition.
 
Posted by testbear (# 4602) on :
 
Yes, to many writers the principle seems to be "If something's worth saying, it's worth saying over and over again". Whereas I'd disagree - if something's worth saying, it's worth saying once...but really, really well... [Big Grin]

[ 18. January 2005, 22:29: Message edited by: testbear ]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Songs often use repetition for effect (what about 'Let's do it?'). I don't have a problem with the 'altogether' in this song, apart from the fact that it reminds me of Terry Pratchett's multiple-personality character Altogether Andrews.

But no, you're not being unspiritual. Or if you are, everyone else on this thread is too, so join the company.
 
Posted by Whiteadder (# 8983) on :
 
Okay, Henry, I have to admit that you do make quite a good point with reference to Psalm 118 because I can't really accuse the Holy Spirit of being unnecessarily repetitive! Well I could but I would be dodging ligntning bolts on the way home!

In my defense, though, if we actually followed what the psalm said we would only say "His love endures for ever" once... that is, unless you happen to be Israeli of from the house of Aaron!

On the other hand, now that I'm in a hole, maybe I should just stop digging!
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
Welcome to the Ship, Whiteadder. We're all in a hole here, dig away!

Repetition is characteristic of Hebrew verse, by the way, so the Psalms aren't necessarily adequate reason for songwriters in English.

[ 20. January 2005, 16:18: Message edited by: Henry Troup ]
 
Posted by Freelance Monotheist (# 8990) on :
 
Wow, there's loads of songs I've never even heard of on here! Thank goodness!
I cannot stand anything by Graham Kendrick, at least not tune-wise (the words to For The Joys & For The Sorrows I used to find comforting when I was a Christian), and all the 7-11 modern songs (7 words repeated 11 times) drive me up the wall!
There's one song I could never stand by Delirious (or someone like that, modern anyway) who have a line that goes 'Nah nah nah hah Hey/Yeah!' which doesn't even mean anything!!!
And the 'Jesus is my boyfriend'and 'Daddy God' songs that proliferated in the last few years just make me want to cringe!
[Projectile] to all cheesy Christian music!
FM xxx
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Freelance Monotheist:

There's one song I could never stand by Delirious (or someone like that, modern anyway) who have a line that goes 'Nah nah nah hah Hey/Yeah!' which doesn't even mean anything!!!

Undignified, Matt Redman.

It's an incident from 2 Samuel 6

quote:
And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.


So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.


And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

and

quote:
When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD , who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel-I will celebrate before the LORD . I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."

I used to have "And I'll become even more undignified than this." as my signature.
 
Posted by Freelance Monotheist (# 8990) on :
 
Thanks Henry! I knew of the passage, but thanks for reminding me who it was by... There's probably a song by Delirious that does my head in then too! Better best forgotten, I say!
I hope I didn't offend you by saying I don't like 'Undignified'...
Your new sig is great, it brought a smile to my face one grey day I was lurking!
FM xxx
 
Posted by GloriaGloriaGloria (# 8017) on :
 
I don't know if anyone has ever heard or sung Rulers of Sodom! Hear the Voice!, which, in my adolescence, sent me into a fit of hysterical giggles which resulted in hyperventilation.

"Rulers of Sodom! hear the voice
Of Heav’n’s eternal Lord;
Men of Gomorrah! bend your ear
Submissive to His Word."

(Naturally, we used to giggle and sing 'rear' instead of 'ear').
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
That's two distinct posters with the same avatar above...


"Rulers of Sodom" should be a Horrible Hymn Hall of Fame contender -- I've never heard it, Deo Gratias!
 
Posted by Padingtun Bear. (# 3935) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Whiteadder:

For example the, otherwise fine, worship song "Light of the World" that repeats the word altogether three times in the chorus...

"You're altogether lovely,
Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me."

(Man, statistically that's exactly 50% of the whole chorus occupied by the same word.)


Sorry to butt in so late on a post, but I couldn't let this one go! This is by no means the worst bit of this song, as any fule kno.

The quoted section is, in fact, only 50% of the chorus. (Thus leaving the proportion of 'Altogether' at 25%?) The first half of the chorus includes the words 'Here I am' repeated three times, which you just can't sing without:
a. running them altogether [Biased] as one word 'Hereayyam'. Which I really dislike, or,
b. sounding like a choir girl. Fine, but not in my church context!

Grrr and humph. I don't mind repetition as long as it's something that's meaningful and can be sung properly.

But I've no problem with Undignified ! Some things you just have to forgive...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Padingtun Bear.:
But I've no problem with Undignified ! Some things you just have to forgive...

I've no problem with the song as a song (though I don't like it much). Matt Redman is quite free to sing it on stage or record it on his CDs to make a point.

But I do have a problem with singing it as a worship song in a normal church service. Because its not true. We don't intend to become significantly more undignified than that, not at any church I've been to anyway. We're lying when we sing it.

And we certainly have no intention of imitting David. If I went to the Rev. Gerald Ambulance's church and stripped naked and danced in front of the Youth Fellowship I suspect that they would object quite strenuously.

If I then went on to behave the way David did with those slave girls, so would their parents and the police.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But I do have a problem with singing it as a worship song in a normal church service. Because its not true. We don't intend to become significantly more undignified than that, not at any church I've been to anyway. We're lying when we sing it.

The churches where I've heard it sung are charismatic, and since we're vertical at the time and mostly wind up on the carpet afterwards, it's accurate. Playing Head in the bucket at TACF with Melinda Fish was undignifed, amusing, and spiritually rewarding.

(You stand in small circles, hold hands, put your head in the metaphorical bucket of the Holy Spirit and take a deep gulp. Hilarity and carpet time follows. Suggestion? maybe.)
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
naked?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
You lot should think yourselves lucky.

At our church we use the book called Songs of Fluffiness.

At Communion on Sunday evening I was moved to write down ALL the song numbers we used.

728 Give me oil in my lamp keep me burning Fine for a church youth group outing circa 1972. Acceptable for a Sunday School, if used to illustrate a lesson. Just about tolerable towards the end of a longish and very informal but upbeat morning service, especially if sung spontaneouldy and unacompanied other than by handclapping. But as the FIRST SONG at an Anglican Communion? Our evning service attendence is small - less than 20 people - and mainly elderly. And this was being led from the organ.

398 My Lord, what love is this Better. A little penitential for the context, and rather whiney, but better.

??? ??? Actually that wasn't all of them - there was one I missed. But it was in the same general vein [Frown] I do remember that it was Kendrick, as I noticed that there were two of his.

303 Jesus, stand among us at the breaking of the bread. Undistinguidhed early period Kendrick. More singable than most - he tends to go to places our congtregation can't reach, especially at the end of lines. Doctrinally sound at least & relevant to Communion.

203 I believe in Jesus. If I remember correctly this was in the place of the Creed. Marc Nelson's rather 1980s piece with echos from men to women. We didn't try that, which was rather sensible. I'm not sure that "And I believe you're here now, standing in our midst" really ought to substitute for "Born of the Virgin Mary..."

79 Dear Lord and Father of mankind Nice tune, shame about the blatantly anti-Christian gnostic heresy. It has no place in church.

64 Light up the fire WHAT!!!!!!! I mean WHY??????? I have nothing against this song. I rather liked it when it came out. I can even play it on my guitar. But what is this little bit of para-hippy Jesus People singalong from 30 years ago doing in our church? As the last song in a Communion service?

[ 26. January 2005, 16:41: Message edited by: ken ]
 
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :
 
In a recent package of choral materials, the song "Well done my child."

I think I'm going to be sick.
 
Posted by Ishbel (# 5466) on :
 
Ken, why do you hate "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind?"
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Because the words are heretical.

I have gone on about it so often in the past that others here will groan outwardly if I erpeat myself.

I suspect there is discussion somewhere on the ship... I will look for it.
 
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
Ishbel - the words are only heretical in a strange parallel universe that very few inhabit. Don't worry about it.
 
Posted by Ishbel (# 5466) on :
 
Now I'm upset that my universe isn't strange or parallel. [Frown]
Seriously, I do enjoy hating hymns, but I can't see what's wrong. [Confused]
 
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
There is nothing wrong with DLAFOM. Sing it, and enjoy it.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
728 Give me oil in my lamp keep me burning

This song shall forever live in my memory as a symbol of my protest against clapping. The worship leader strode down the aisle encouraging all to clap. She reached me. My hands remained clenched behind my back. She motioned to me to join in, and clapped in my face. I gave her a look that said, "I'll kill you first." She moved on.


I love DLaFoM. I'm curious as to what may be Gnostic about it.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
There is nothing wrong with DLAFOM.

I really don't want to go into all this again because it must be boring by now. There was a whole thread about it not long ago. Probably around somewhere.

But it is clearly and obviously not just heretical but anti-Christian.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There was a whole thread about it not long ago. Probably around somewhere.

Someone else just started a thread about DLAFOM so I put some of my reasons there.
 
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
quote:
But it is clearly and obviously not just heretical but anti-Christian.
ken, the fact that you have to explain your views about DLAFOM so often shows that there is nothing clear or obvious about them. I happen not to believe that it is heretical, anti-christian or gnostic, but I can see that you have made out a case. However it is not a "clear and obvious" one.
 
Posted by ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Just got back from church to day after singing some of the worst 19th century colonial drivel ever written... How Good English Christians Should Convert The Heathen in Foreign Places (aka 'From Greenland's Icy Mountains')

Someone with a more recent edition than AMR tell me it has been left out of later hymnbooks? Please???

And to watch the entire congregation sing it gormlessly... 'well, we sort of switch onto auto pilot when we sing' [Disappointed] [Disappointed]

It makes me long for the PC police in AHOAN
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Funny, I've heard that sung in East African churches with real gusto and feeling.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
What's colonialist about that?

Unless you think that Christianity itself is colonialist and should never be communicated to people who already have their own religion.

In which case I suppose most of my white northern -European neighbours will become Odinists or some such or whatever they did "when all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones". And I can get back to knitting my wicker man.
 
Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
728 Give me oil in my lamp keep me burning

This song shall forever live in my memory as a symbol of my protest against clapping. The worship leader strode down the aisle encouraging all to clap. She reached me. My hands remained clenched behind my back. She motioned to me to join in, and clapped in my face. I gave her a look that said, "I'll kill you first." She moved on.

Monty Morris' ska version of that song is terrific, though. A beautifully simple horn solo kicks in half way through, blows a fanfare and gasps through a clownish glissando before resurrecting into a descant that has grace shot through it. Just the bare minimum of ornament, a scale and a one note gallop: perfect in every way. Then Toots Hibbert gives it some gospel that'd convert a sand lizard.

I don't know who the female vocalist is, but she gives the words a whole 'nother dimension. If you don't smile and move yo stuff to that, they're playing it at your funeral.

R
 
Posted by ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What's colonialist about that?

Unless you think that Christianity itself is colonialist and should never be communicated to people who already have their own religion.

Fair enough, perhaps 'colonialist' was the wrong choice of word on my part. But lines like
quote:
In vain with lavish kindness the gifts of God are strown;
the heathen in his blindness bows down to wood and stone!

seriously slander many faiths whose purpose is not to worship a wooden idol and so, imho, have no place in a modern church where if we're not preaching active conversion of people of other faiths (and whether we should do that is another discussion) we should at least promote tolerance and understanding.

And the day my
quote:
soul [is] lighted with wisdom from on high,

hasn't yet arrived, and I'm not singing as though it is.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ferijen:
...
quote:
...
the heathen in his blindness bows down to wood and stone!


A direct quote from Kipling (or vice versa) The 'Eathen
 
Posted by shareman (# 2871) on :
 
From Greenland's Icy Mountains. Ah, childhood. It is, of course, the marching song of 19th century Imperialism. Not that I was a child in Victorian England or anything.....

We whose hearts are lighted with wisdom from on high (good Victorian Christians that we are, most advanced and all)Can we to men benighted, the lamp of life deny? No, we must shoulder the White Man's Burden, now mustn't we? Thing is, I find the words funny, rather than offensive. I get images of earnest Victorian churchgoers singing it all sincere and everything, meaning every word. Now it's a lovely rousing tune, I still love singing it, but usually only when I'm a little tipsy and in the mood to cause derisive chuckles at other than my voice.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Shareman, that's an eisegesis, not an exegesis.

It doesn't say that, even if that's what many of the singers would have thought when they sang it.
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
Its interesting that many Africans today still see the missionary activity as the more glorious aspect of empire. It seems to be the part Europeans feel most sensitive about.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
And, contrary to popular blah-blah it was often opposed by the government.

In parts of West Africa they used to lock missionaries up.
 
Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :
 
I'm thinking of locking someone up after being subjected to Men of Faith Rise Up and Sing last Sunday. This woman of faith will bloody well sing something more to her taste very loudly if we get this sort of twaddle again.

[ 02. February 2005, 12:55: Message edited by: Moth ]
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
I dunno - you get women of truth in the third verse.
 
Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :
 
Yes. And I'll be telling them the truth in love!
 
Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moth:
I'm thinking of locking someone up after being subjected to Men of Faith Rise Up and Sing

Recent threads have suggested that there are more women attending church than men. Maybe we don't need to tell the women to do it.
 
Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :
 
And maybe someone's trying to even the numbers up by pissing all the women off?

I'm working on my own version:

Women of faith refuse to sing
Meretricious rubbish to your king!
Just because Delerious wrote the words
Doesn't mean they're not absurd.

It's a work in progress.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Indeed it is crap.

quote:

We've been through fire we've been
through rain
We've been refined by the power of his name
We've fallen deeper in love with you
You've burned the truth on our lips

Why the sudden shift from "his" to "you" between lines 2 and 3? Is it just me that finds that jarring?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Probably because it was originally used in performance and there was some sort of instrumental break or change of gear or voice there.
 
Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :
 
Karl, it's so you can get that authentic "Jesus is my boyfriend" moment.
 
Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
We had "Men of Faith" introduced by the vicar saying, "Of course, the 'Men' is inclusive - it means women as well."

To which I pointed out the "Rise up women of the truth" verse.

We haven't sung that one since [Snigger]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I've heard a great Wellspring version of this song, so I'd hate it to disappear altogether. But I've never sung it myself - the idea that men are called to do one thing and women another is not one I'm fond of.

For another 'him/you' switch, try 'Come, now is the time to worship'. It goes from

"Come just as you are before your God"

into

"One day every tongue will confess you are God"

Huh? I'm God all of a sudden?

And don't get me started on the complete absence of the resurrection from 'Lord I lift your name on high'.

You came from heaven to earth ...
From the earth to the cross ...
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
(Er, what about the earth again?)

The only reason for keeping this song in your repertoire is so your bass player can play the bassline from 'The Joker'.
 
Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by shareman:
From Greenland's Icy Mountains. Ah, childhood. It is, of course, the marching song of 19th century Imperialism. Not that I was a child in Victorian England or anything.....

We whose hearts are lighted with wisdom from on high (good Victorian Christians that we are, most advanced and all)Can we to men benighted, the lamp of life deny? No, we must shoulder the White Man's Burden, now mustn't we? Thing is, I find the words funny, rather than offensive. I get images of earnest Victorian churchgoers singing it all sincere and everything, meaning every word. Now it's a lovely rousing tune, I still love singing it, but usually only when I'm a little tipsy and in the mood to cause derisive chuckles at other than my voice.

This reminds me of one of Andrew Rumsey's 'Strange Warmings' columns - 'Mighty Rivers of Praise.' You'll find it in the magazine.
 
Posted by shareman (# 2871) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Shareman, that's an eisegesis, not an exegesis.

It doesn't say that, even if that's what many of the singers would have thought when they sang it.

"The heathen in his blindness bows down to wood and stone." OK OK I can see the spiritual meaning of it, but it's still good for a chuckle. I nod my head about how it's spiritual darkness that needs dispelling by the Light of Christ that we have been most fortunate to have received. That, having been so fortunate to have received the wonderful Light of God, we have a responsibility to spread that Light to all. And that man alone is vile because man alone is vile and fallen everywhere, that's what it is to be human. I'll acknowledge why it's vain that God sowed His gifts in lavish kindness to those whose spiritual darkness and enslavement to the powers of evil prevent them from acknowledging the grace of the Giver of every blessing. In a way, I believe all of it actually, all sarcasm aside. But I'll still have a good laugh at the Imperialism of it all. Great fun really. And it sounds really good belted out of several people after three or four pints at the local!
 
Posted by Alban (# 9047) on :
 
Wonderful thread, albeit of the deceased equine variety. I have spent hours reading it.
I am reminded of a New Zealand hymn, "upside-down Christmas" - which unfortunately the minister sems to like, and so gets trudged out each year. I think the fourth vers sums up pretty well what I hate about it.

"Right side up Christmas belongs to the universe,
Made in the moment a woman gives birth;
Hope is the Jesus gift, love is the offering,
Everywhere, anywhere, here on the earth."

[Roll Eyes]
Belongs to the universe? New-agey, wishy-washy pap. Grr.
I also have the dubious privilege of being involved in music for the preschool programme. A few examples there, too, but they suit the children, I guess.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
We sang a song in Chapel yesterday with the wonderful line
quote:

Dip your heart in the stream

Why????? Drink from it I could have understood.

(I attempted to remember the title and the authors but all I can recall now was one of them was Brian Brenton or something of that ilk)

However, the RC Mass in Chapel on Tuesday showed that the evangelicals don't have a monopoly on these things. I get worried when the best hymn is Amazing Grace.* The others were 'As I kneel before you' after Communion. 'You' here being Mary which in the context (I was kneeling before Our Lord not his Mother), and the second verse in particular in which we say we give her everything (to present them to my Lord at least), made it too Marian for me and it was bad poetry. The last verse was
quote:

As I kneel before you,
and I see your smiling face,
ev'ry thought, ev'ry word
is lost in your embrace

The recessional was 'Walk with me, oh my Lord'. This did at least acknowledge that the Christian journey is not always easy but:
quote:

Stones often bar my path
and there are times I fall,
but you are always there
to help me when I call

is just bad poetry. Some of the verses had rhymes between the second and fourth lines (as above) but I'm not convinced spent and strength do, nor mind and side and I'm sure blind and high don't.

Carys

*I'm afraid I'm not a fan, mainly I think because of overuse and a dislike of the tune.
 
Posted by quantpole (# 8401) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
*I'm afraid I'm not a fan, mainly I think because of overuse and a dislike of the tune.

I too am not much of a fan but i was at a church the other week that did it to the tune of House of the Rising Sun. It was actually really good (though I doubt you'd like it as it had guitars and drums accompanying [Big Grin] )
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Perhaps it is the Lenten fast that is getting to me, but I had the oddest song pop into my head today... and what is strange that I recall hearing this ghastly, contemporary hymn only once (...God is merciful). I remember the service well - it was for teenagers, and during Lent.

I cannot remember all of the words, but the verses were on the order of "they gave me gall and sour wine for my food, under the weight of the wood." The refrain was "freedom can be found, laden down under the weight of the wood."

I realise, of course, that the lyrics must have been written by one who was trying to express that our salvation (freedom from bondage or something?) came through the crucifixion, yet I have this strange mental picture of Jesus' carrying the cross with this the image of his freedom...
 
Posted by testbear (# 4602) on :
 
I found a couple of friends of mine today taking great delight in fitting the words of "Heart of Worship (When The Music Fades)" by Matt Redman to the theme tune from "Ghostbusters". Alt-worship indeed...
 
Posted by The Venomous Bede (# 7991) on :
 
Help! I have plenty of reasons for hating Mission Praise. Various members of our Vestry wish to buy copies and introduce it as the main hymnal (they currently borrow copies from the Presbyterians for their once a month navel gazing "Prayer and praise" service). We currently use A&M new standard. 90% of our congregation is over 50. We only have 4 teenagers at our main Eucharist on Sundays. Please can I have as many reasoned arguments as posssible to fight them off? The Hymnal I would love to use is NEH. My trouble is, I guess, that I find MP so ghastly I cease to be logical about it and lose my rag. Your suggestions please, or else they will lose me as choir leader and I will have to commute to St Mary's in Edinburgh on Sundays! [Mad]
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Common Praise has a few modern songs in (the most popular over the last 20 years, not just any old ones such as MW has). Buy those and convince your vestry group that you then have all they need! [Cool]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Venomous Bede:
Help! I have plenty of reasons for hating Mission Praise. Various members of our Vestry wish to buy copies and introduce it as the main hymnal (they currently borrow copies from the Presbyterians for their once a month navel gazing "Prayer and praise" service). We currently use A&M new standard. 90% of our congregation is over 50. We only have 4 teenagers at our main Eucharist on Sundays. Please can I have as many reasoned arguments as posssible to fight them off? The Hymnal I would love to use is NEH. My trouble is, I guess, that I find MP so ghastly I cease to be logical about it and lose my rag. Your suggestions please, or else they will lose me as choir leader and I will have to commute to St Mary's in Edinburgh on Sundays! [Mad]

Ask the "yoof" what they want. Are they fighting for MP? Proponents of mor modern worship usually use "relevance to the yoof" as a pretext for ditching existing hymnals and liturgy. It might be interesting to find out if the younger element actually want MP or whether it is the Christian Blairites (modernisers) that do so.

-
 
Posted by Lumpy da Moose (# 9038) on :
 
One might be surprised what "yoof" might want in a service.

My own son, who has accompanied me to the choir loft on nearly every Sunday he was with me since he was an infant, plays in the youth "praise band" on his guitars (electric and acoustic). Imagine my shock when last spring he asked to join the adult choir. Hell, I didn't even know he sang, or for that matter, had an interest in it. Here's someone who likes the contemporary stuff, yet can and will sing the classics and the hymns with aplomb. Makes a father proud.

Even he admits that some of the "yoof" stuff is shlock, but he plays it anyway, since others like it and that's part of his personal ministry.

And, even tho' I don't care for the service, I join him and a few others and play for the contemporary service on Sunday. Yeah, that's me on that annoying bass guitar. Is it my taste? No. Is it part of my service to the Lord. Yes. Indeed.
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
Many of the best modern hymns were written since Mission Praise was published.

It seems best for that tacky 70s/80s stuff which people who aren't modern think is modern.

IME anyway...
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Even the musician who was wheeled in to pension off my previous church choir (or at least turn it into a praise and worship group) admitted that Mission Praise was past its sell-by date. The church chose to ignore that piece of advice, and got rid of the choir but kept Mission Praise. And held a workshop to sellotape all the old copies back together again. Unlike poor Humpty Dumpty.

[ 11. March 2005, 20:41: Message edited by: Chorister ]
 
Posted by Cheesy* (# 3330) on :
 
This is clearly the worst tripe ever written (first heard by me tonight in a church which shall forever remain nameless). Incidently, we sang an extra chorus which went 'myyyyyyyyyyyyy glorious, myyyyyyyyy glorious, myyyyyyyyyy glorious' or something.

As my wife said, it sounds like something written by someone who isn't ofey with spoken english. My glorious what exactly?

C
 
Posted by The Geezer (# 5521) on :
 
Compare this. Gerard Manley Hopkins is turning in his grave.
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
I'd always liked 'my glorious', though I agree it's pretty crappy lyrically!

Delirious started out so well, but something changed early on and they've been crap ever since...
 
Posted by Cheesy* (# 3330) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_ricarno:
I'd always liked 'my glorious', though I agree it's pretty crappy lyrically!

Delirious started out so well, but something changed early on and they've been crap ever since...

So... it basically has a groovy tune [Roll Eyes] .

I'm afraid this song marks an all time low in my relationship with charismatic and quasi-charismatic evangelical christianity. We had young men waving their hands around in the half-mast-slightly-curled-fingers position. If they were really holy, they jiggled on the spot.

The worship leader was squeezing* for all he was worth. What kind of a weird world is it when that stuff is taken to imply sincerity? OK - the song is complete nonsense, but we are going to sing it emotionally as if it actually means something [Confused]


C

*squeezing - tendancy amoungst young worship leaders (particularly men) to sing as if they are constipated and need more fibre in their diet.
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
Yep, I agree. It probably grows out of the rock-music world, but it doesn't really translate to the spiritual realm.

Particularly when you have songs which are the equivalent of 'Hey, baby, oooh, I want your body baby, ooooh yeah'. In fact, at Soul Survivor one year (oh yes, I used to go to that festival...), we were treated to this gem:

Hey Lord
Oh Lord
Hey Lord
You know what we need

Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na

Jesus, you're the one
You set my heart on fire (x 2).

Profoundly moving, I think you'll find...
 
Posted by Calindreams (# 9147) on :
 
Try and get hold of a Jesus Army songbook and you will be treated to lines like;
Everybody's into Jesus
Everybody's kicking it live
Everybody's finding freedom
Dancing to the beat of the band.

and;

We're saying yes yes yes
To Jesus Christ
We're saying yes yes yes to him
We're saying yes yes yes
To Jesus Christ and no no no to sin

Chorus:
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes (baptised I've crossed the line).
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
(We're drinking the new wine)
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
Well at least that one's doctrinally explicit. Banal, and repetitive, and probably very annoying, but at least it doesn't relegate God to some kind of spiritual-orgasm machine.

ETA: except that one could read all sorts of things into 'yes yes yes yes yes yes'...

[ 14. March 2005, 13:40: Message edited by: mr_ricarno ]
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
I myself have a fondness for
quote:
And we say yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord

Yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord

Yes Lord yes Lord yes yes Lord Amen

in context - Trading My Sorrows
 
Posted by Calindreams (# 9147) on :
 
Another Jesus Army one:-

Universe universe
We feel your living soul.
Universe universe
Throbbing through the whole.
 
Posted by riverfalls (# 9168) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
Another Jesus Army one:-

Universe universe
We feel your living soul.
Universe universe
Throbbing through the whole.

I think that the Jesus Army lyrics that you just mentioned are profound in there simplicity and strong in their meaning
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by riverfalls:
quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
Another Jesus Army one:-

Universe universe
We feel your living soul.
Universe universe
Throbbing through the whole.

I think that the Jesus Army lyrics that you just mentioned are profound in there simplicity and strong in their meaning
The Universe has a soul? The Universe throbs? Have I missed something.

I don't want to dun a denomination on the basis of one chorus but that looks pretty odd to me.

--
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I have a love/hate relationship with 'Trading my Sorrows'. Firstly there's the idea that I can choose whether to have my sorrows, pain etc or not. Highly dodgy. Then there's the orgasm chorus. And finally the fact that the tune reminds me of 'She Drives Me Crazy' by the Fine Young Cannibals.

But then there's that 'I'm pressed but not crushed' bridge which suddenly brings a bit of non-triumphalism into the picture, and means I can't quite bring myself to throw it out of my repertoire.
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
The trouble with that bridge is it doesn't fit in with the rest of the song! A kind of evangelical doublethink...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Universe has a soul? The Universe throbs? Have I missed something?

It certainly throbs.

We know there is anisotropic cosmic background radiation, and as far as I'm concerned all you need to do is be in a rotating frame of reference and that's throbbing.


As for soul...
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
Ken's use of "anisotropic" reminds me obliquely of the whole genre of 1960/1970 "relevant" hymns such as God of Concrete, God of Steel. Anyone ever actually heard this sung? I never have.

Frederick R.C. Clarke and Richard Granville Jones in The Hymn Book of the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada (1971 edition)
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Wasn't that in 100 Hymns for Today?

I can feel my flesh creeping already.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
If ken could come back and explain anisotropic I'd be grateful. I know what aniseed is and I can't get beyond that.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Big Bang & similar ideas would imply that on a large scale - that is large as isn"the galaxies merge into the background dust" - the universe ought to be more or less homogenous - the same all the way through.

That in turn implies that the cosmic background radiation - that is the radiation that is left if you forget about all the light from stars, galiaxies, quasars, and eveything else you can see in the universe - ought to be the same intensity whatver direction its coming from.

It's not, quite, its sort of slightly blotchy. Anisotropic. Radiation comign from differnt directions looks lightly different.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If ken could come back and explain anisotropic I'd be grateful.

isotropic means having uniform properties in all directions independent of the direction.

anisotropic is the inverse - the anisotropic background radiation is not smooth in all directions. So if you upshift it to the audio spectrum in a rotating frame, you'll hear throbbing.
I seem to recall that the cosmic background is a B-flat, 57 octaves below middle C.

Just think of a really big Hammond B-2, playing a really low note...
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Thanks to ken for the cosmology and Henry for the etymology.

I suppose that just as the galaxies, stars and planets are "blobby" the background must be too. Maybe it would be isotropic (he says using the word for the first time) if the clumps hadn't formed.
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Wasn't that in 100 Hymns for Today?

I can feel my flesh creeping already.

A red cross on a blue 'ink-marbled' background? Oh, the memory of it.
 
Posted by The Lady of the Lake (# 4347) on :
 
Can anybody tell me which is the song that has 'we are a vapour' as its second line.
'You are the ___' is the first line, and I can't remember what ___ is. Anyway, it sounds so silly, the tune is just namby-pamby, and the theology is all over the shop. It gives the impression that we as creatures are 'nothing', a sentiment I tend to find dangerous. Oh, its time signature is also either 6/8 or 3/4, which means that it sounds like some sort of exceptionally silly lullaby. [Projectile]
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
Can anybody tell me which is the song that has 'we are a vapour' as its second line.

Google points me to
Be Unto Your Name, Robin Mark
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
That's the one. All it says, as far as I can see, is 'You are eternal, we aren't, you're a lot bigger than us', none of which I can disagree with.

But then the only version I've heard is by the gorgeous Wellspring (listen here to a clip - scroll down to 'Lord of the Ages' CD) so I may be biased.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
"Be unto Your Name" is also on "Revival in Belfast" - IMO a distinctly non-crappy live CD.

To add to the Horrible Hymns list an NSM friend recalled finding a hymn with the title "My heart it is an oaken staff" - and said it was truly horrible. Based on the title it was pretty hard to disagree with him But I've never been able to find it. Anyone know it and can point to it?
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
...recalled finding a hymn with the title "My heart it is an oaken staff" - and said it was truly horrible. ...

I found "My faith. it is an oaken staff", number 148 in the Boys Brigade hymnal. Cyberhymnal has that here credited to Thom­as T. Lynch (1818-1817) and thereby Public Domain.

First verse:

quote:
My faith, it is an oaken staff,
The traveler’s well loved aid;
My faith, it is a weapon stout,
The soldier’s trusty blade,
I’ll travel on, and still be stirred,
By silent thought or social word;
By all my perils undeterred,
A soldier pilgrim staid.

I've never aspired to be "staid" myself.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Thanks Henry, and now I know why I couldn't find it. It's pretty antique but not too horrible really. It could do with a few "nah, nah, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah, nah nah"s to improve its relevance and youth friendliness.

(To avoid misrepresentations, I like a lot of Kevin Prosch songs. "The Spirit of the Lord God" for example. Anyone who thinks that's horrible had better have a very good reason.....)
 
Posted by Calindreams (# 9147) on :
 
I was gutted when Kevin Prosch's albums were taken off the shelves when he was caught up in some controversy in the Vineyard church. During my own struggles with my own faith his words always spoke powerfully, probably because his lyrics reflected a similar struggle.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Calindreams:
I was gutted when Kevin Prosch's albums were taken off the shelves when he was caught up in some controversy in the Vineyard church. During my own struggles with my own faith his words always spoke powerfully, probably because his lyrics reflected a similar struggle.

Yes. Exactly. I hope it is possible for Kevin to be re-habbed (if he hasn't been already). I reckon a lot of other people might as well. New thread?
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
I have to confess a dislike for Kevin Prosch based on the few songs I've heard. 'Lord of the Dance' seems to be a re-working of 'woo God's my girlfriend and I'm happy', and the others are 'Lord break our Hearts' and 'Shout to the Lord', which I find a bit more bearable but still a bit vacuous.
 
Posted by The Lady of the Lake (# 4347) on :
 
Henry,

thanks for finding the title of 'Be Unto Your Name'. The poor grammar of the title irritates me as well. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
Ken's use of "anisotropic" reminds me obliquely of the whole genre of 1960/1970 "relevant" hymns such as God of Concrete, God of Steel. Anyone ever actually heard this sung? I never have.

Frederick R.C. Clarke and Richard Granville Jones in The Hymn Book of the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada (1971 edition)

I'm pretty sure this song was discussed, mocked and even parodied farther back on this thread. I have never heard it sung but it is responsible for me cracking up audibly during a three-hour Good Friday service one time, as I was flipping idly through (unfamiliar to non-Anglican me) hymnal.
 
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :
 
Visiting my mum's church, I was accosted by a song containing the refrain:

Celebrate, Jesus, celebrate!
Celebrate, Jesus, celebrate!
Celebrate, Jesus, celebrate!
Celebrate, Jesus, celebrate!


I know it's meant as invitation to celebrate the joyous resurrection of Christ, but I kept reading it as an imperative directed at Jesus: "You'll celebrate Your Resurrection and You'll darn well like it!"

[ 27. March 2005, 00:54: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
That's another "Directive " hymn or song. I detest all of them of any era, even if Charles Wesley wrote it.

Instead of declaring that we will worship, praise, adore or celebrate (or whatever else is your won't) just get on and worship Him, praise Him, adore Him or celebrate Him. Especially today. Just do it!
 
Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That's another "Directive " hymn or song. I detest all of them of any era, even if Charles Wesley wrote it.

Speaking of Wesley, aren't some of the words of "Christ the Lord is risen today" quite odd.

We had some international students at church today who had not a clue of what was going on - and I could see where their confusion stemmed from.
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That's another "Directive " hymn or song. I detest all of them of any era, even if Charles Wesley wrote it.

I think it was some chap called Dave who made them popular. Jewish guy...
 
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Speaking of Wesley, aren't some of the words of "Christ the Lord is risen today" quite odd.

We had some international students at church today who had not a clue of what was going on - and I could see where their confusion stemmed from.

Which bits? Just checked out the words at cyber hymnal and the only bits I could find that are maybe a little odd are:

'Lo! the Sun’s eclipse is over, ....
Lo! He sets in blood no more'

but I don't think it's that difficult is it? (except that I think Cyber Hymnal must have got it wrong - sure it should be 'o'er' not 'over', to make it rhyme and scan!)
 
Posted by shareman (# 2871) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you):
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:

Frederick R.C. Clarke and Richard Granville Jones in The Hymn Book of the Anglican Church of Canada and the United Church of Canada (1971 edition)

I'm pretty sure this song was discussed, mocked and even parodied farther back on this thread. I have never heard it sung but it is responsible for me cracking up audibly during a three-hour Good Friday service one time, as I was flipping idly through (unfamiliar to non-Anglican me) hymnal.
Ah yes, the monstrosity my father has always called "The Red Oven Door". I take it you didn't get to the one that thanked God for "this sacrament of sex that recreates our kind". [Roll Eyes] Between unsingable arrangements, rewordings that seem to be only for the sake of change, and hymns no-one would want to sing anyway, that book has to be the absolute worst thing ever foisted on unsuspecting Christians. Most places went back to the old Book of Common Praise a few years after the red thing came out. I don't know of any Anglican parish on the island that uses it, the church in my hometown having given up it's occasional use of it for the new green book. The latter is an improvement, but I suspect it is best received in those parishes that have used nothing else than the aforementioned piece of crap for the past thirty or so years and have thus forgotten what a good hymn is supposed to be anyway. What odds about blessing gay unions, we should have been drummed out of the Communion for allowing that thing in the door, IMNSHO!
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by shareman:
...Most places went back to the old Book of Common Praise a few years after the red thing came out. I don't know of any Anglican parish on the island that uses it...

The red union hymnal gets a fair amount of use in the Anglican Diocese of Ottawa. Some parishes have taken up the new Anglican book, which I think is also titled Comon Praise. The new United Voices United has its moments ... good and bad. I was at one Anglican parish in Toronto that was seriously discussing adopting Voices United.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Shareman -

The Red Book was almost universal in Western Canada and Ontario. Interseting to hear what your father thought about it; do you have an opinion of your own?

And the new book is blue, not green.

John
 
Posted by shareman (# 2871) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Shareman -

The Red Book was almost universal in Western Canada and Ontario. Interseting to hear what your father thought about it; do you have an opinion of your own?

And the new book is blue, not green.

John

1. Not so's you'd notice. [Big Grin]

2. I'd have sworn copies I've seen of it are green. We don't use it, though I have seen it and read through it, though not recently. It's certainly an improvement over the Red one. Our former organist took exception to a Christmas hymn that made reference to "hope stillborn" but I don't recall the exact context now. I remember not being so upset by the reference when I read it, all the same.

What I don't understand is the seeming desire to change things for the sake of change. I don't mean doing away with exclusive language or the like, or of getting rid of racist (arguably, given the discussion a while ago on Greenland's Icy Mountains)hymns. I mean leaving out verses, for instance. Sorry, I don't own a copy, and thus can't give examples. I remember that the "new book" is not as bad for that sort of thing as the Red one was. We used it at home last Christmas Eve. One of the carols we sang was shortened in this fashion, can't remember which one at present, but it seemed needless to me. Sorry not to have specific references, but I'll see if I can find a copy over the next couple of days and be more specific.
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by shareman:
I mean leaving out verses, for instance. Sorry, I don't own a copy, and thus can't give examples. I remember that the "new book" is not as bad for that sort of thing as the Red one was. We used it at home last Christmas Eve. One of the carols we sang was shortened in this fashion, can't remember which one at present, but it seemed needless to me. Sorry not to have specific references, but I'll see if I can find a copy over the next couple of days and be more specific.

Possibly it's to do with the (perceived or actual) shortened attention span of modern youngsters/non-regular churchgoers/people in general. Or to do with the fact that non-regular churchgoers really aren't used to corporate singing. Therefore, the thought goes, we shouldn't stress the poor things too much by inflicting too many verses on them. Even if you disrupt the entire narrative structure by doing so . (Think of the consequences of missing out certain verses of "At the name of Jesus"...)
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
I use the new book primarily as a source, but I have to say I haven't noticed the problems SHareman has found in his extensive use of the book.

SHortening Christmas carols is a perennial topic on these boards (though not, I think, a dead horse. As I'm not really aware of many Christmas carols in any hymnbook, including those in the Blue Hymn Book (1938 -- and the Spirit really hasn't spoken to any composers or authors since) Shareman prefers, that haven't been shortened, edited or generally buggered about with, I'm long since past worrying about it.

A hearty chorus of "Hark how all the welkin rings" anyone?

John
 
Posted by shareman (# 2871) on :
 
First of all, I never laid claim to extensive use of the book. In fact, I stated clearly I didn't have much experience of it. I found some things I didn't like, some things I did. In fact, I specifically stated I thought Common Praise an improvement over the previous one.

I suspect from your tone you had some input into the compilation of one or both books. If it was Common Praise and you feel unjustly attacked, I apologize. I do have limited exposure to the book, and feel it has good points and bad points, as far as I know it. More familiarity may give me a better feeling concerning it, though my current feeling isn't too bad. If however, it was the red hymn book into which you had input, sorry, you've gotta take your licks on that one. It has little to redeem it as far as I'm concerned.

I am not one to believe Liturgy or Hymnody ought to be engraved in stone. It is just very difficult for the average person in the pew to see why things are changed some times. The attitude one gets from those who would innovate that if we don't agree with the changes being made then we must just be stick in the mud old fuddy duddies or unsophisticates who don't know what's good for us doesn't help matters. Neither does the constant carping from those for whom things have to be fixed for all time. If one does like a new hymn, one dare not say so in some circles. Not one Anglican clergyman explained why liturgical renewal was necessary in the 70s other than to say that people couldn't understand those old words and we had to get with the times. I asked and argued a lot in those days. It wasn't until years later that I found out the real reasons for liturgical renewal, and ceased to be the "BCP or death type" I had been. Same goes for hymns.

I'd suggest that most of the older hymns have attained a status not unlike folk song in many communities. They are not songs in a book, but a musical heritage we own, many of which are known off by heart. Changing them then becomes more than just liturgical innovation, and, frankly, DOES need justification. I think people would be much more open to new hymns if it wasn't presented as "out with the silly old stuff, in with the new relevant material". You don't get very far insulting people's heritage.

A case in point is Jesus Loves Me, every kid's favourite hymn when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. If the kids for whom it was meant had no trouble understanding it, why was it necessary to change it to "... and the Bible tells me so. Little ones to Him belong, in His love we shall be strong "? I do think changes like that need justification if only to avoid the accusation of pettiness.

And what's wrong with "Hark how all the welkin rings"? Might just be time to rejuvenate it.
 
Posted by Oriel (# 748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:

quote:
My faith, it is an oaken staff,
The traveler’s well loved aid;
My faith, it is a weapon stout,
The soldier’s trusty blade,


Hymns whose primary subject matter is something other than God are always a source of some discomfort to me. "Lord Thy Word abideth" is another of these, as the words make clear that what is being referred to is Scripture, not Christ.

I don't want to sing hymns in praise of my own faith, or the Bible. I want to sing hymns to and/or about God.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by shareman:

I suspect from your tone you had some input into the compilation of one or both books.
...
A case in point is Jesus Loves Me, every kid's favourite hymn when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. If the kids for whom it was meant had no trouble understanding it, why was it necessary to change it to "... and the Bible tells me so. Little ones to Him belong, in His love we shall be strong "? I do think changes like that need justification if only to avoid the accusation of pettiness.


Nope -- I'm just a user. Commons WOrship would have been rather different if I'd been there. And, though I'm nearing 60, I's have to be closer to 80 to have been involved with the Red Book.

As we are not required to use any of the books, in our place we draw from a wide variety. It's in that context that I went carefully through Common Worship when it came out. Definitely mixed, though as you say, an improvement for those for whom the red book was their only experience. I do note that a number of hymns that were omitted from the previous book but were added in the red book also appear in the new one. WE've picked up a couple of excellent new Easter Hymns from the new book -- we sang "Truly he comes to us" to O Quanta Qualia today. But overall it's very conservative and middle of the road.

As for "Jesus loves me" -- "Jesus loves me...and the bible tell me so" is true. But saying "I know God loves me because the bible tells me he does", which is what the other words mean, implies that a child (and many adults' faith remains shaped by the words of hymns they sang as children) will know about God only from the book -- not from their families, friends and daily living. ENough to make a fuss over? Don't know, but I wasn't there.

John
 
Posted by Sinisterial (# 5834) on :
 
Can anyone explain what is behind

God's promises are like rainbows in the dark?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sinisterial:
Can anyone explain what is behind

God's promises are like rainbows in the dark?

Guitar straps at a Evo' worship event?
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
Sounds suspiciously like rubbish to me...

But it's probably meant to mean that the dark existential hopelessness of human existence is broken by the rainbow - symbolic of God's promises and his revelation of himself therein.

There does seem to be a slight physical problem with the analogy though...
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
Oh, and as for "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

It's not that it's discounting other ways of knowing about God, simply working from the realisation that other ways are not as reliable and authoritative as the Bible.
 
Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
Like many new comers I have fouind this thread and laughed over many evenings reading through the many pages!
My favourite hymn as a child is one many people seem to hate- not sure why??!!
How many remeber/know -
Hold the Fort for I am coming!!
Jante
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Oh, and as for "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

It's not that it's discounting other ways of knowing about God, simply working from the realisation that other ways are not as reliable and authoritative as the Bible.

As interpreted by MY pastor, not YOURS. [Razz]
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
Well, the other change in "Jesus Loves Me" as cited above (and I didn't even know the lyrics had been changed) is changing "they are weak but He is strong" to "in His love we shall be strong." Because we don't want children thinking they're weak, because it's bad for their self-esteems, I guess.
 
Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jante:

How many remeber/know -
Hold the Fort for I am coming!!
Jante

The second verse is particularly appropriate as a processional,
quote:
See the mighty host advancing,
Satan leading on


 
Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Oh, and as for "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."
It's not that it's discounting other ways of knowing about God, simply working from the realisation that other ways are not as reliable and authoritative as the Bible.

Karl Barth, who led the counter-attack against the feeble minds and shonky theology of the Bultmanniacs, was asked if he could sum up his theology in a single sentence. He thought for a while, and responded, "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so".
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
"Hold the Fort for I am Coming" must have another life as a secular song celebrating organized labour, does it? Because I can clearly hear the opening line in my head, but it's promptly followed by "Union men, be strong!" I wondered if it did double duty, like "I Shall Not Be Moved," or am I going mad and conflating two quite different songs?
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
Oh good... I'm not crazy.
 
Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 
Having only recently boarded The Ship (and subsequently spending most of yesterday reading this thread) I would like to add my own contribution.

Bearing in mind that I go to a relatively happy-clappy church I have a plethora of horrors to choose from... including one with the line 'But listen, my lover is coming'. Can't remember how it starts - just remember never being able to sing it with a straight face.

Anyway, one such classic (and I won't bore you with the first verse and chorus) says...

"There's a sound of praise
There's a sound of war, yeah
Lift the banner high
Let the Lion roar
Can you hear the sound in the
tops of the trees, yeah?
Heaven's armies come! Crush the enemy!"

What? Give me a break? What sounds in the tops of the trees? Squirrells? It isn't even singable - is scans poorly and the music is rubbish!!!

Other than that one I have a whole selection which have been bastardised by our youth group, including 'Open the Eyes of my Heart Lord' which became 'Open the legs of the tart, Lord'. Enough said about that the better really. Especially when it was particularly fitting for one of the girls who used to sing at the front for worship (oops did I say that? Internal monologue taking over again!!)

Auntie Doris x
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
Having only recently boarded The Ship (and subsequently spending most of yesterday reading this thread) I would like to add my own contribution.

...oops did I say that? Internal monologue taking over again!!)

Auntie Doris x

Welcome aboard! Looks like you'll fit right in!
 
Posted by Elizabeth Anne (# 3555) on :
 
It's probably been mentioned before, but I just wanted to complain about "Earth and All Stars" with its "loud rushing planets," "loud boiling test tubes," and "loud pounding hammers."

It was one of the hymns chosen for a recent service and I couldn't stop laughing.
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
Has anyone heard a really stupid children's 'praise' song whose chorus goes

Hey ho!
It's time to go
boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boooooooooooooooooooooing

boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boooooooooooooooooooooing

or similar. It was used at a family service at my home church, and I found its almost total lack of reference to God, Jesus or Christianity rather amusing.
 
Posted by The Venomous Bede (# 7991) on :
 
quote:
Hey ho!
It's time to go
boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boooooooooooooooooooooing

boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boooooooooooooooooooooing

Sounds Like Zebedee to me
 
Posted by thomasm (# 4618) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_ricarno:
Has anyone heard a really stupid children's 'praise' song whose chorus goes

Hey ho!
It's time to go
boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boooooooooooooooooooooing

boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boing boooooooooooooooooooooing

or similar. It was used at a family service at my home church, and I found its almost total lack of reference to God, Jesus or Christianity rather amusing.

We use annually at our church - for kids holiday clubs.

It passes as Christian because the first says about praying and the last about reading the Bible. Oh and that its by Dave Godfrey, who writes that sort of stuff.

I don't mind it for the holiday club as the kids like it, but would run a mile at the idea of using it in worship.

Oh and also its "come on" rather "hey ho" i think.

Tom
 
Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by thomasm:
Oh and also its "come on" rather "hey ho" i think.

Tom

I stand corrected.
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
I got exposed to an example of a worship song that just didn't work for congregational singing this week. At a Cursillo ultreya, we sang (in the middle of a bunch of other stuff) Once Again by Matt Redman. Unfortunately:
It, to be charitable, limped. By contrast, more familiar stuff had excellent volumen from band and congregation.
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
That can work in congregational singing. But, as you say, it needs the congregation to know it and decent leading.
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I've given up trying to read all 22 pages of this, so my apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but does anyone else remember a song probably from the late 70's called, I think, 'I'll trust the God of miracles'? It contains the priceless line,
'With God things just don't happen'....
 
Posted by Wandering Crucifer (# 7497) on :
 
I don't remember it (I'm not old enough), but Google is my friend:

I Know Who Holds the Future
(near the top of the page)
 
Posted by quantpole (# 8401) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
I got exposed to an example of a worship song that just didn't work for congregational singing this week. At a Cursillo ultreya, we sang (in the middle of a bunch of other stuff) Once Again by Matt Redman. Unfortunately:
It, to be charitable, limped. By contrast, more familiar stuff had excellent volumen from band and congregation.
Funny that, cos over here that was probably one of the most sung songs (in evangelical circles) about 5 years ago. It is also one of Matt Redman's songs that is most suitable for congregational singing (some would take that as an indication of what the rest of them are like!) I've sung it many times in many different groups and settings and most of the time it's been fine. I think one of the problems with music is that people don't accept that the first time you do something it's probably going to be a bit pants. It does sound like the band didn't know what they were doing though.
 
Posted by A. Smith (# 3299) on :
 
My least favourite Matt Redman song is the "dirge" Worthy. [brick wall]

The verses are bearable but the chorus

"Worthy X lots
Much more worthy than i know!

Cant stand repetetive choruses. It sounds like a droning chorus!

Like Mr Townsend (sp?) stuff, especially the Blessed be your name - sounds like a "proper hymn"
 
Posted by quantpole (# 8401) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by A. Smith:
My least favourite Matt Redman song is the "dirge" Worthy. [brick wall]

The verses are bearable but the chorus

"Worthy X lots
Much more worthy than i know!

Cant stand repetetive choruses. It sounds like a droning chorus!

Like Mr Townsend (sp?) stuff, especially the Blessed be your name - sounds like a "proper hymn"

I presume you mean Stuart Townend who has indeed written quite a few hymn-like songs in the past few years. I'm a bit confused though; Blessed Be Your Name is a Matt Redman one and couldn't really be described as a 'proper hymn'. Townend's most well known song is In Christ Alone - you might be thinking of something like that.
 
Posted by Sinisterial (# 5834) on :
 
It is amazing how much motivation that I get from working on my company's Fringe Benefit Tax return!

After finally reading the past twenty-two pages I feel that I can contribute another twenty-two!

Now for my first offering: what is it with the words in some hyongs?

Exibit A:
quote:
God's promises are rainbows in the dark
What exactly does this mean?
Exibit B: We had a new song called calvary
which has the line
quote:
...our gain was heavens loss..
??? Heaven lost something when Christ died? - an empty status maybe but that is all!

Exibit C: from Jesus, lover of my soul. Maybe charismatic people have more faith than me but the line
quote:
..though my world will fall I'll never let you go..
would be far better if the "I" and the "You" were swapped around (which we do in my ch__ch)

These hyongs have really great melody and some good lines - why do they screw it up with weird lines that make no sense?
 
Posted by A. Smith (# 3299) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
quote:
Originally posted by A. Smith:
My least favourite Matt Redman song is the "dirge" Worthy. [brick wall]

The verses are bearable but the chorus

"Worthy X lots
Much more worthy than i know!

Cant stand repetetive choruses. It sounds like a droning chorus!

Like Mr Townsend (sp?) stuff, especially the Blessed be your name - sounds like a "proper hymn"

I presume you mean Stuart Townend who has indeed written quite a few hymn-like songs in the past few years. I'm a bit confused though; Blessed Be Your Name is a Matt Redman one and couldn't really be described as a 'proper hymn'. Townend's most well known song is In Christ Alone - you might be thinking of something like that.
Sorry it was a Matt Redman song, it is unfortunately the closest thing we get to a hymn in my church. (Doh!)

I apologise for the inaccuracies in my previous post.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Sorry it was a Matt Redman song, it is unfortunately the closest thing we get to a hymn in my church. (Doh!)
You have my deepest sympathy.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sinisterial:
what is it with the words in some hyongs?

Dunno, but maybe its all explained here:
A major part of every lesson is Hyong
 
Posted by wafer thin (# 9159) on :
 
Why when you go into an evangelical church they pick the worse chorus known in this world and the next, then you have to sing it a hundred times?????
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
So that you can remember the words well enough to post some of them here.

(But not enough of them to break copyright laws, of course.)
 
Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh [Eek!]

I have to sing at a wedding tomorrow. Went to a music practice tonight to find that the songs are..

- Love Divine (happy with that)

- Morning Has Broken (bearable but reminds me of school assemblies)
- Shine Jesus Shine(somebody kill me now!!) [Projectile]

How on earth can I stand up the front of the church pretending to be all happy when I have to sing Shine Fricking Jesus Shine.

Help me [Help]
Help me [Help]
Help me [Help]

Auntie Doris x
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
There is no escape from the Shiny Song......

Auntie D, are you still alive, or did you not survive the experience?

Ian J.
 
Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 
I did survive... but I didn't make it through Shine Jesus Fricking Shine without laughing. Luckily the little bridesmaid was running around the bride and groom at the time giggling, so I pretended I was laughing at her.

Nevertheless it wasn't a pretty experience. I am all Kendricked out for the coming year I think.

Auntie Doris x
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh good - glad you made it!

'Morning has broken' is bad enough (though I like the tune - isn't there a proper hymn which is sometimes sung to it?) - and what the heck has that (or the Shiny Song) got to with a wedding anyway? I shudder to think of what the clergy have to go through......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 
God only knows what Shine Jesus Fricking Shine has to do with anything. Who am I to question tho? I was just there to sing and drink Bucks Fizz!! [Snigger]

Auntie Doris x
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
/quote 'Morning has broken' is bad enough (though I like the tune - isn't there a proper hymn which is sometimes sung to it?) /quote

Yes. 'Child in the manger', translated from the Gaelic 'Leanabh an aigh' of Mary Macdonald (1789 - 1872).
 
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 
There's also a really good Iona Community song, called "God the Creator", which uses the same tune (Bunessan).
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
What's wrong with Morning is Broken?

Its quite good, I thought. Not exactly an exposition of the entire Gospel in one song, but then what is?

Bunessan is a little town or village in Mull. The last place you pass through before you get to Fionnphort where you can get a boat to Iona. Its rather lovely.
 
Posted by Pânts (# 4487) on :
 
Should I be concerned that the only songs I know all the words to, and so consequently keep singing to Alien are crappy choruses?!?! [Eek!] [Disappointed] [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pânts:
Should I be concerned that the only songs I know all the words to, and so consequently keep singing to Alien are crappy choruses?!?! [Eek!] [Disappointed] [Roll Eyes]

Yes!
 
Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Nope.

Sing them with great gusto and extreme facial experessions. Good mental stimulation for the Alien.

Or, when it's sleepy-snuggly time, sing the most banal or bloodthirsty words sweetly and softly and send her off to Dreamland with 'em.
 
Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What's wrong with Morning is Broken?

Its quite good, I thought. Not exactly an exposition of the entire Gospel in one song, but then what is?

The tune makes my ears hurt.

And lyrically, I always thought it was rather twee and santimonous.

[ 21. June 2005, 16:35: Message edited by: Papio. ]
 
Posted by Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Papio.:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What's wrong with Morning is Broken?

Its quite good, I thought. Not exactly an exposition of the entire Gospel in one song, but then what is?

The tune makes my ears hurt.

And lyrically, I always thought it was rather twee and santimonous.

"Morning is broken
Can't fix it up again..."
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Souless, souless, the lot of you. Being nasty to poor Eleanor Farjeon like that.

Next you'll be telling me you don't like Christina Rossetti.
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
I registered with SoF today, and thought this topic looked like a good place to start.
I started at the beginning, and have been on here for FOUR HOURS!...Have just reached the bottom of page 8, and must go to bed!

I have no idea how long it is going to be before I catch up with the rest of you, but it's been fun tagging along behind you.

Rose
 
Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 
Hi RoseofSharon,

I think that when I joined this was one of the first threads I looked at. I laughed at it for hours and hours.

Nice avatar too [Smile]

Auntie Doris x
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
sing-along version of the Lord's prayer reminds me of a poem I used to like at primary School. The poem ended.

"Amen, amen, amen, amen.
Timothy Winters, Lord. Amen!"


"Timothy Winters" by Charles Causley...my favourite poem
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boopy:
many not ostensibly religious poems may be so if you choose to read them that way; that decision often lies with the reader. Boopy;)

..."that decision often lies with the reader."....Which, of course, also applies to the singer/listener when deriding the crappy choruse and hideous hymns.
The distorted meanings, and warped images come from our own imaginations...we are not innocent bystanders! [Razz]
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Newman's Own wrote:

quote:
I'm very familiar with many mystic writings (and naturally the scriptures) which use erotic imagery, but what I find so hilarious about the "I want to have sex with Jesus" imagery today is that those using it in their compositions seem not to see the erotic implications at all.

Totally hillarious!! It's as if these people both writers and those who promote this type of stuff have undergone an irony bypass. Quite a number of times, I've accidently turned up at 'praise' service - to find myself grinning my head off in the songs, not because I am enraputured but because I'm ******* my sides.
There's something risible about innocence?... See my previous post about the contribution of the singer/listener.
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Robin:

Simon was a rebel
Jesus loved him still
and replaced his dagger
with a daffodil

I confess to providing my own inappropriate mental image when I read this. [Hot and Hormonal]

[edited to fix UBB]

[ 29. June 2005, 12:06: Message edited by: TonyK ]
 
Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
Roseofsharon,

Glad you like the thread, welcome to the Ship and all that. The thing that brought me to the Ship was a similar thread on the original boards, many years ago now. Otherwise I'd have probably thought, "Oh yes, a vaguely interesting religious site." when I followed a link here and forgotten all about the site within the week.

Unfortunately, the original boards are either lost or very difficult to find, but these boards have an area called "Limbo" where old threads go when they die if they've been good. One of the Limbo threads is the one of which this is the Redux. If you want to waste more time ...
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
As the starter of the original thread, I am very plesed it has given so much pleasure to so many people that this (redux thread) is now 23 pages long! [Biased]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I started one many moons ago called 'Musical irreverence' which wasn't so much a rant, more a giggle. That went on for a long while.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Must ... resist ... Limbo thread.

I've stopped after 4 pages 'cause I need to get some work done. What a laugh.

I'd forgotten about my 'It's pants and it breaks my heart' parody. And Alexandra's 'Jesus loves me' parody too. (Wish she'd come back - she was a wonderful writer.)
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ann:
If you want to waste more time ...

Noooo! I've only just made it here.
Apart from a few hours at work, I've been here all day [Snore]
 
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
..... It contains the priceless line,
'With God things just don't happen'....

It makes better sense if you put the words in the right order:-
With God things don't just happen

Or to emphasise the point. use quotation marks:
With God things don't "just happen"
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Roseofsharon posted:
quote:
It makes better sense if you put the words in the right order:-
With God things don't just happen

Or to emphasise the point. use quotation marks:
With God things don't "just happen"

Yes, I assumed that that is what is meant; although it's inelegant, it does make more sense.

However, the words I was taught at church, that we had written down and that most people sang (I used actually to change the order to make sense when I sang it, but I was alone) were as I quoted them.

M.
 
Posted by GloriaGloriaGloria (# 8017) on :
 
From today's slightly early July 4th service, I think it's called 'This is my Song':

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean
And sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
But other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine.

 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Not in L.A. they're not.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by GloriaGloriaGloria:
From today's slightly early July 4th service, I think it's called 'This is my Song':

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean
And sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
But other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine.

Yes, sung to the tune Finlandia. They had this at the church I work for this morning, along with a rewritten version of "America" and some other terribly PC thing. Gag.
 
Posted by AngelicR (# 7930) on :
 
Lovely thread, has made me chuckle out loud!

I myself fell victim recently, during a rendition of 'It's all out you' (not an all time favourite...) I caught myself singing a slightly alternative chorus of "It's all about shoes, Jeee-sus".

Whoopsie! [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by AngelicR (# 7930) on :
 
Sorry!

Of course the song is 'It's all ABout you'. Preview Post may well be my friend, but he's a bloomin useless one until I learn to read properly!
 
Posted by Master Tubby Bear (# 9739) on :
 
A few observations from n years as a church pianist:-

1. Give thanks with a grateful heart = Go West/One nil to the Ar-se-nal/Pachelbel's Canon
2. There's a song with the chorus "And I worship you/I give my life to you/I fall down at your feet" where the opening bars of the chorus bear an uncanny resemblance to the theme tune to Blake's 7
3. the vegetarian's chorus: "There's a fight to be fought and a race to be run/there are dangers to meet by the way"
4. the baker's chorus - My Jesus my Saviour - "Icing for joy..."
5. which moron put the words of "God is our strength and refuge" to the Dambusters theme? Can't sign it now without thinking of black and white films and/or that Carling Black Label advert

Have just realised that not much of the above makes sense unless you are a middle class male living in the UK. oops.

Lots of love

The Tubbster

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
Posted by Master Tubby Bear (# 9739) on :
 
oops x 2 - meant to say "middle AGED male". let's not get into what class distinctions bring to bear in musical taste.

MTB
 
Posted by Trini (# 7921) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AngelicR:
Lovely thread, has made me chuckle out loud!

I myself fell victim recently, during a rendition of 'It's all out you' (not an all time favourite...) I caught myself singing a slightly alternative chorus of "It's all about shoes, Jeee-sus".

Whoopsie! [Hot and Hormonal]

On Sunday, we were introduced to a new 'chorus' which included the line "I've seen the latest fashions" and goes on to say how much better our Lord, King and Creator of the Universe is, than the latest shoes. Talk about damning with faint praise!
 
Posted by testbear (# 4602) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AngelicR:
Lovely thread, has made me chuckle out loud!

I myself fell victim recently, during a rendition of 'It's all about you' (not an all time favourite...) I caught myself singing a slightly alternative chorus of "It's all about shoes, Jeee-sus".

Whoopsie! [Hot and Hormonal]

Better that than the friend of mine who would get the whole emphasis of the song everso slightly wrong - "It's all about meeee...Jeee-sus"
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Trini - you don't remember any lyrics, do you?

Imagining some dreadful pun on Jimmy Choos/Him we choose ... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
One quick Google later ...

Was it this?

Upside Down

I like my pun better.
 
Posted by Trini (# 7921) on :
 
No, that isn't it. (Scary to think there are more in that vein.)

I wasn't paying much attention to the song but the comparison of God to fashion woke me up. Not surprisingly, that's the only line I can remember. There weren't any actual references to shoes but the line I quoted is word for word, from the song.

I've written a friendly note about it to our worship leader because I really think it's an insulting song. I mean, if I created the world and someone said, "gee, you're cooler than Armani" I think I would be miffed. It was especially funny coming right before the very traditional "This is my Father's world".

Now, you have me wondering what they rhymed with "fashions"...
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
In the same vomit-inducing line of damning with faint praise: I nominate the children's song that was inflicted on us last Sunday.

My memory has formed a protective seal over the details, but the chorus was something like: Jesus, you're my superhero / better than Superman / better than Spiderman / better than Barbie / better than Action Man.

Why do some lyricists think you can switch your brain off just because you're writing for children? As Trini says, you wouldn't get away with saying that sort of thing if you were trying to praise a real person:

quote:
Hail, our Sovereign Elizabeth, by God's grace Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Duke of Lancaster, defender of the faith, paragon of the charms and virtues and glorious even beyond the Barbie dolls!
or

quote:
My darling, shall I compare you to a summer's day? You are more lovely and more temperate; more beautiful even than Barbie, for only your breast implants are made of plastic.

 
Posted by Songs of Praise (# 8435) on :
 
Has anyone yet mentioned those horrid 'question and answer' evangelical choruses, where the men either always lead (natch) or, most horrifically, provide the answers to the women's questions.

Such as Lift up your heads, O ye gates (the king of glory shall come in), thus:

Women: Who is the king of glory? What is his name? (i.e. Oh no, we've forgotten already, our heads are so full of kittens and knitting)

Men: We are the men and we know all the answers in this case!

Or something like that.
 
Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
Is the "it's all about you Jesus" one Heart of Worship? Because that has to be the single most unsingable song ever, from a congregational point of view -- closely followed by "Shout to the Lord" -- and this coming from someone who genuinely enjoys most Praise and Worship choruses. "Shout to the Lord" I do like if it's performed, but not for congregational singing. "Heart of Worship" is just dirgelike and the lyrics are annoying.
 
Posted by AngelicR (# 7930) on :
 
quote:
Is the "it's all about you Jesus" one Heart of Worship? Because that has to be the single most unsingable song ever
The very same. I find it too distracting, and not matter how hard I concentrate always end up lapsing into shoe worship... maybe an important lesson in discipline in worship!? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
quote:
Songs of Praise said:
Has anyone yet mentioned those horrid 'question and answer' evangelical choruses, where the men <snip> provide the answers to the women's questions.

Such as Lift up your heads, O ye gates (the king of glory shall come in), thus:

Women: Who is the king of glory? What is his name? (i.e. Oh no, we've forgotten already, our heads are so full of kittens and knitting)

Men: We are the men and we know all the answers in this case!

Or something like that.

Otherwise, the women would be teaching the men, and that would be Bad™.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
We just sing those left side/right side of the room.

John
 
Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Songs of Praise said:
Has anyone yet mentioned those horrid 'question and answer' evangelical choruses, where the men <snip> provide the answers to the women's questions.

Such as Lift up your heads, O ye gates (the king of glory shall come in), thus:

Women: Who is the king of glory? What is his name? (i.e. Oh no, we've forgotten already, our heads are so full of kittens and knitting)

Men: We are the men and we know all the answers in this case!

Or something like that.

Otherwise, the women would be teaching the men, and that would be Bad™.
Oddly enough, in Teacher Skool, they tell us that asking the questions is the teaching part.

Bwahahah. [/evillaughofgenderdisparity]
 
Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
Metrical psalms are not evangelical choruses, of course ... but if you look at the second part of Psalm 24 sung to St George's Edinburgh, the tenors and basses ask the questions, and the sopranos and altos join in the answer.

Suitable for feminists?
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
quote:
Songs of Praise said:
Has anyone yet mentioned those horrid 'question and answer' evangelical choruses, where the men <snip> provide the answers to the women's questions.

Such as Lift up your heads, O ye gates (the king of glory shall come in), thus:

Women: Who is the king of glory? What is his name? (i.e. Oh no, we've forgotten already, our heads are so full of kittens and knitting)

Men: We are the men and we know all the answers in this case!

Or something like that.

That is because you are not singing the sensible Mr. Handel version, where the questions and answers alternate between the upper and lower parts. Unlike 'Good King Wenceslas' where all the women have to sing the weakening Page's part - walking about in the snow in their high heels again, no doubt. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Dubitante (# 10015) on :
 
Ages ago, on 15 July 2005 Tubbster wrote:
quote:
which moron put the words of "God is our strength and refuge" to the Dambusters theme? Can't sign it now without thinking of black and white films and/or that Carling Black Label advert
Answer is Richard Bewes, formerly of All Soles Langham Place London W1.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Songs of Praise said:
Has anyone yet mentioned those horrid 'question and answer' evangelical choruses, where the men <snip> provide the answers to the women's questions.

Such as Lift up your heads, O ye gates (the king of glory shall come in), thus:

Women: Who is the king of glory? What is his name? (i.e. Oh no, we've forgotten already, our heads are so full of kittens and knitting)

Men: We are the men and we know all the answers in this case!

Or something like that.

That is because you are not singing the sensible Mr. Handel version, where the questions and answers alternate between the upper and lower parts. Unlike 'Good King Wenceslas' where all the women have to sing the weakening Page's part - walking about in the snow in their high heels again, no doubt. [Roll Eyes]
I think it was written with choirs of boys and men in mind, so the boys would sing the page's part, on account of the page being a boy.
 
Posted by Faithful Sheepdog (# 2305) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dubitante:
Ages ago, on 15 July 2005 Tubbster wrote:
quote:
which moron put the words of "God is our strength and refuge" to the Dambusters theme? Can't sign it now without thinking of black and white films and/or that Carling Black Label advert
Answer is Richard Bewes, formerly of All Soles Langham Place London W1.
I don't think this hymn deserves to be on this thread at all. It's a fine metrical version of Psalm 46, set to an equally fine piece of music, The Dambusters' March.

Arranged for our music group and accompanied by military band style percussion, I thought that it worked extremely well. We are, after all, the "church militant here on earth".

Even if you still don't like it, count your blessings nevertheless. At least it will never be mistaken for "Jesus is my boyfriend" type music - it just oozes testosterone. [Smile]

Neil
 
Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Faithful Sheepdog:
quote:
Originally posted by Dubitante:
Ages ago, on 15 July 2005 Tubbster wrote:
quote:
which moron put the words of "God is our strength and refuge" to the Dambusters theme? Can't sign it now without thinking of black and white films and/or that Carling Black Label advert
Answer is Richard Bewes, formerly of All Soles Langham Place London W1.
I don't think this hymn deserves to be on this thread at all. It's a fine metrical version of Psalm 46, set to an equally fine piece of music, The Dambusters' March.
I like it, too. It's certainly one of the bits of Mission Praise I won't be consigning to the burning circular out-tray come the revolution.

And it provides an opportunity for much hilarity at cho