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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Myra Hindley
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
At last, Myra is where she belongs: Hell
At a time when I was beginning to fear that Britain was no longer a Christian country, it's great to see such a refreshing display of popular piety and Christlike sentiment.
[ 10. March 2003, 00:39: Message edited by: Erin ]
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Good one, Laddie.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Hull Hound
Shipmate
# 2140
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Posted
What can I say? I wouldn't grace my arse with that paper.
As a media criminal she was not going to get a release, not even in death.
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ahhh ... Bisto!
Posts: 1167 | From: Hull | Registered: Jan 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Wherever she is now she will have met love, understanding and true justice. RIP.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
I take it that The Sun isn't expecting to see our sister in Christ in the great upstairs.
Not sure that I blame them.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I believe that people who have committed heinous crimes can repent.
I also believe, though, if she knew where that boy's body was and never told, that would indicate she didn't repent.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I also believe, though, if she knew where that boy's body was and never told, that would indicate she didn't repent.
Moo
What if she didn't know?
And who are we to judge who's in hell, and who ain't?
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Merseymike
Shipmate
# 3022
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Posted
If you know what Saddleworth Moor is like, then it would come as no surprise that she may not have known.
Of course, her involvement in those murders was appalling. But so has the way that she has been the universal hate figure and scapegoat for politicians and vengeful public alike for many years.
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Christianity is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be experienced
Posts: 3360 | From: Walked the plank | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dave the Bass
Shipmate
# 155
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Posted
The news bulletin that anounced Myra Hindley's death also mentioned the next stage in the trial of the murderers of the Soham schoolgirls. I suppose that Maxine Carr will occupy the place in the media's canon of hatred that has just been vacated by Hindley. Some things never change!
Posts: 2162 | From: In a forest | Registered: May 2001
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Well said, sarkycow.
Apparently redemption is only for nice people.
We'll see where the editors of the Sun end up.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
I suppose that Maxine Carr will occupy the place in the media's canon of hatred that has just been vacated by Hindley. Some things never change!
Rose West seems to have been forgotten, doesn't she?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
This a.m. we sang "To God be the glory!"
The third verse:
"O perfect redemption, the purchase of blood!
"To every believer the promise of God,
"The vilest offender who truly believes,
"That moment from Jesus a pardon receives."
I have a part of me that was horrified at the idea of meeting Myra Hindley ... so I'm struggling.
I'm very glad that it's God and not me who has the responsibility - otherwise things would neither be fair, nor loving.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Before I post, my thoughts and prayers are mainly with the families of the victims here.
DaveC, the same thought crossed my mind yesterday.
One good thing, it's not the tabloids who decide who goes to Hell, shame they believe it is.
And if anyone asks me as a Christian whether I agree she has, I will say I don't know, it's up to God, and that Christianity is the faith that God loves and forgives us all.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Puffin
Apprentice
# 1295
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Posted
Saw some newspaper reports yesterday, dissecting the iconic 1964 picture of Hindley and talking of the evil eyes and the square stubborn face (or similar words). If we didn't know what she'd done, would the eyes still appear evil? Or is the really frightening thing that she just looked like one of us?
Posts: 40 | From: Glasgow | Registered: Sep 2001
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LatinMan
Shipmate
# 1892
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Posted
Some years ago, an ancient Soviet apparatchik died, whose career included being up to his eyeballs in Stalin's crimes. National Review, the US conservative magazine, published an obituary, which was headed with the deceased comrade's name followed by the letters "RIP*". At the bottom of the page there was a note:
quote:
*But only after a suitable period of penance.
or words to that effect.
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Posts: 603 | From: The Marches of the Archdiocese of Chicago | Registered: Nov 2001
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I always translate what newspapers say into the 'truth' because none of us really knows what another is like...
Myra Hindley will never be fogiven by God.
translates into
I can't forgive Myra Hidley.
and
The Royal Family is untrustworthy.
means
I am not a trusting person.
Evil does exist and Myra Hindley was undoubtably touched by it. Whether of not she repented deeply of her sins is known only to her and God.
Is she did repent, then I believe she is forgiven.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
If The Sun does decide who goes to Hell, Then i'll have to choose between becoming a Sun reader, and burning in Hell forever. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
It's quite a difficult choice, really. Perhaps, we'll be forced to read The Sun in Hell. Or maybe the Daily Mail ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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Campbell Ritchie
Shipmate
# 730
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Posted
Columcille, "read The Sun in Hell. Or maybe the Daily Mail?" Be grateful for small mercies. It could have been the Express ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) .
Daisymay, quote:
The vilest offender who truly believes,
That moment from Jesus a pardon receives.
I have known other people misunderstand that: but if Hindley has actually repented and turned to Christ for forgiveness, that forgiveness will be complete, and you will be pleased to meet her and grateful for what Christ has done for her. It may seem hard now, but I am sure it is true.
There are a few people you might not be pleased to meet. See below. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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The greatest problem about Christianity is that it condemns you to eternity with me.
Posts: 396 | From: Middlesbrough | Registered: Jul 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Agreed, Campbell Ritchie, particularly since the clan I belong to sees all Campbells as enemies.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sola Scriptura
Shipmate
# 2229
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Posted
One thing that has occured to me when such crimes occur and that is:
Is the person plainly bad and if bad what made the person that way?
Is the person morally empty and lacking any feelings towards their victims?
Is the person mentally ill have they got their brain wired up wrongly?
Does the person have a real choice to do or not to do such evil crimes?
If one is sick in any way emotionally, morally or chemical imbalace in the brain can one really be cured???
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Used to be Gunner.
Posts: 576 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Genie
Shipmate
# 3282
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gunner:
One thing that has occured to me when such crimes occur and that is:
Is the person plainly bad and if bad what made the person that way?
Is the person morally empty and lacking any feelings towards their victims?
Is the person mentally ill have they got their brain wired up wrongly?
Does the person have a real choice to do or not to do such evil crimes?
If one is sick in any way emotionally, morally or chemical imbalace in the brain can one really be cured???
Gunner, at present I have no idea. However I've just begun a diploma course in criminology through which I hope to learn some of the answers (or at least learn what the appropriate question are). Ask me again in six months time and I might be able to answer it.
Alternatively, are there any shipmates who are already versed in this subject?
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Alleluia, Christ is risen!
Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I believe that people who have committed heinous crimes can repent.
I also believe, though, if she knew where that boy's body was and never told, that would indicate she didn't repent.
Moo
She didn't. She and Ian Brady were taken on to the moor to try and find the bodies and couldn't remember where they were. Saddleworth moor is huge and devoid of any landmarks that give you a reference point.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gunner:
One thing that has occured to me when such crimes occur and that is:
Is the person plainly bad and if bad what made the person that way?
Is the person morally empty and lacking any feelings towards their victims?
Is the person mentally ill have they got their brain wired up wrongly?
Does the person have a real choice to do or not to do such evil crimes?
If one is sick in any way emotionally, morally or chemical imbalace in the brain can one really be cured???
This is a topic worthy of a whole new thread Gunner. Perhaps you would like to try it in Purgatory?
Briefly, from my own (little) knowledge:
If the problem is a chemical imbalance (as it is in some way in most forms of depression, say), then it can be corrected chemically a lot of the time. Not all the time - we don't have the medical knowhow to get the exact right chemicals (usually neurtransmitters) to the exact right location, and only to that location.
If the problem is 'wrong-wiring', as it can be postulated to be in many cases of schizophrenia, then there can be no absolute cure. Chemical treatments can alleviate symptoms, but the brain cannot really be re-wired.
Hope this helps some,
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
No man can say whether she repented or not, but Hindley's constant campaigning for her own release suggests that she lacked a little humility.
The views on this are worringly opposite that to the paedophiles thread (men who have child porn needed to be hunted down and locked away..). I don't think finding Sun-style journalism in the best taste shows one to be particularly "clever". However (like with paedophiles) being against attacks on her is one thing, those on this thread who appear to be defending her is quite another.
There was a good article in the Sunday Telegraph by Theodore Dalrymple. Entitled "It is irrelevant whether Hindley felt remorse", unfortunately not available on-line without registering. Perhaps someone could cut and paste?
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
At last, Myra is where she belongs: Hell
At a time when I was beginning to fear that Britain was no longer a Christian country, it's great to see such a refreshing display of popular piety and Christlike sentiment.
Apologies for double posting and gpoing back to the OP but this follows from my previous post. Hindley's relatively good treatment in prison (out of all proportion to what she deserved) shows that "Christlike Sentiment" is indeed still present in Britain
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
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The Lad Himself
Accidental stowaway
# 2073
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbell Ritchie:
Columcille, "read The Sun in Hell. Or maybe the Daily Mail?" Be grateful for small mercies. It could have been the Express .
Hey! My dad worked for the Sunday Express!
And the one thing he was careful to teach me, to make sure he imparted before he passed away, was that ALL NEWSPAPERS ARE *****ING *******ERS. He had a hard time pronouncing the asterisks, but I took his meaning. I was a journalist for a time myself before I saw just how wise his words were. It's an industry based on gossip, even the broadsheets are on a downwards spiral. The only newspapers worth reading are Private Eye and The Sunday Post. If anybody knows what we should do with our lives, it's Oor Wullie. I'd trust him over Peregrine Worsthorne any day.
Oh, yes. Myra Hindley.
Saved. Forgiven. Only my opinion.
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new blog: crazywise.org
Posts: 2302 | From: Southport, UK | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
No man can say whether she repented or not, but Hindley's constant campaigning for her own release suggests that she lacked a little humility.
The views on this are worringly opposite that to the paedophiles thread (men who have child porn needed to be hunted down and locked away..). I don't think finding Sun-style journalism in the best taste shows one to be particularly "clever". However (like with paedophiles) being against attacks on her is one thing, those on this thread who appear to be defending her is quite another.
What nonsense. I cannot say for sure whether Hindley repented/was forgiven (I believe she was but obviously cannot judge). However, I don't see why being truly penitent also requires you to grovel on the ground snivelling about how you deserve nothing but to spend the rest of your days in prison. In fact, if you believe you have been reformed during your time in prison, and the standard duration of your sentence is actually long over surely it is just as responsible to stop running up bills at taxpayers' expense and try to live a semblance of a life outside jail.
Nobody is defending her crimes, obviously, but your connection with our defense of her personally and paedophilia as a crime is insulting and imperceptive. I hope no-one would resist the arrest and trial of paedophiles ("hunting down" is a gross turn of phrase - they are not animals). However, I would defend utterly the possibility that a paedophile could well repent, reform and change but bigotastic attitudes like that will hardly help them do so.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
[Sorry to double post]
I take back one thing - stupid comment about bills at taxpayers' expense as clearly the appeals will have significant costs to the taxpayer.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
SeanD -can you please elaborate on what "bigotastic" means. It seems like such a wonderful word, straight out of Smashie and Nicey.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
You're not wrong, me felosophical mate! ("Fel-" short for feline.)
I don't know where it came from, the depths of my illiterate subconscious perhaps, where Smashie and Nicie must have more of a presence than I realised!
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
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Posted
quote:
However, I don't see why being truly penitent also requires you to grovel on the ground snivelling about how you deserve nothing but to spend the rest of your days in prison. In fact, if you believe you have been reformed during your time in prison, and the standard duration of your sentence is actually long over
Do you equate humility with grovelling? My point was that if Hindley had realised the magnitude of her crimes and repented of them, she would be quietly accepting of treatment the world gave her in return. If that meant release from prison (and that is something I am neutral on.. ..I would certainly defend her right for peace if released) than I'd accept it, if not then.. accept it.
Hindley was not a wronged wife who stabbed her husband. Nor was she a child, like Mary Bell or Thompson and Venables. Her crimes were of the most extreme nature. Vociferously campaigning for your own release a couple of decades later on the grounds you are now "reformed".... ..well, the cheek of it!
By the standards of "the world" Hindley deserved to die. By the standards of some Christians she deserved to die (In "Mere Christianity" CS Lewis argues the case for the death penalty). That she lived a relatively comfortable (if restricted) life is testimony to the degree of Christian forgiveness in our justice system.
This thread is leaving me with a decidedly nasty taste in the mouth. It reads like a rather distasteful Chick parody...
"Paul Dacre, you had a succesful career editing a populist newspaper, which ran much campaigning journalism hoping to better the world. But you didn't share my Guardian reading sensibili... er.. I mean accept me as your personal saviour. Depart thee cursed into the everlasting fire..
"Myra Hindley, you brutally murdered six children but prayed the sinners pray..... ..wait - oh a left-footer - ... erm.. ..partook in death cookies, you're in"
As a parting question, what do you believe the everlasting fate of her child victims to be? Chances are they didn't "accept Christ".
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The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I apologize in advance if this post is too off topic. As an advocate for the mentally ill and the mother of a gentle, kind young man with schizophrenia I would just like to point out to anyone readiing this thread that most people with schizophrenia are actually slightly less likely to commit violent acts than others.
From the National Institures of Mental Health http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/schizoph.cfm
quote:
Are People With Schizophrenia Likely To Be Violent?
News and entertainment media tend to link mental illness and criminal violence; however, studies indicate that except for those persons with a record of criminal violence before becoming ill, and those with substance abuse or alcohol problems, people with schizophrenia are not especially prone to violence. Most individuals with schizophrenia are not violent; more typically, they are withdrawn and prefer to be left alone. Most violent crimes are not committed by persons with schizophrenia, and most persons with schizophrenia do not commit violent crimes. Substance abuse significantly raises the rate of violence in people with schizophrenia but also in people who do not have any mental illness. People with paranoid and psychotic symptoms, which can become worse if medications are discontinued, may also be at higher risk for violent behavior. When violence does occur, it is most frequently targeted at family members and friends, and more often takes place at home.
All the causes of schizophrenia are not known at this time but current thinking at it's simplest holds that it is a hormonal imbalance with the brain producing too much dopamine. The latest medications work by blocking the excess dopamine and the patient often experiences a very marked decrease in symptoms within hours of the first doses of medication.
It is very unlikely that someone with untreated schizophrenia could commit the sort of crime discussed here becuse of the amount of planning and secrecy and co-operation with others involved.
Although usually well-intentioned it is very disheartening for people with this disease to constantly see the name crop up when discussing horrific crimes. The "perhaps they did it because they had schizophrenia" is usually well meant but adds so much to the stigma of mental illness. Just imagine how you would feel if you had, say, diabetes and everytime someone with that condition commited a crime the headlines blazed "Diabetic Kills Wife." It's no wonder that my tender hearted son is afraid to tell his co-workers about his disease.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Eleighteen, the difference between your paedophile example and Myra Hindley, is that one is dead and one alive.
The issue of how you punish in life is different to how God deals with you in death.
Nobody is excusing her behaviour, all we're doing is saying that it's not up to the Awful British press to decide how God treats her. Especially as we believe in a forgiving God.
I think it is so sad that what we are concentrating on is the criminal and not the victims, though.
I'm sorry you have a bad tatse in the mouth, (seriously). I suppose it can't be helped when the topic is so distasteful in the first place.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Melchizedek:
The only newspapers worth reading are Private Eye and The Sunday Post. If anybody knows what we should do with our lives, it's Oor Wullie. I'd trust him over Peregrine Worsthorne any day.
Oh, yes. Myra Hindley.
Saved. Forgiven. Only my opinion.
I agree with you on Private Eye, but I'm not a fan of the Sunday Post. Apart from Oor Wullie and The Broons, of course.
As for Myra, for some reason 'Saved, Forgiven' is my gut feeling as well.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
What really gets my wick is how Myra was treated like a political carrot-on-stick, to be waved by a politically and PR savvy Home Sec. whenever the polls swung away from the incumbent.
IMO, sentences should be fixed in court, and only changed when additional crimes are charged and convicted. I am no liberal by any means (I believe in the principle of the death penalty for capital crimes - murder, sex offences - but have no faith in a secular system to exercise it justly) but Myra's treatment is akin to a mouse being toyed with by a sadistic cat.
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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The Lad Himself
Accidental stowaway
# 2073
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Columcille:
... for some reason 'Saved, Forgiven' is my gut feeling as well.
My sister helpfully suggests that we feel that way because it'd be nicer. Happy endings an' all.
I will now stop listening to my sister.
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new blog: crazywise.org
Posts: 2302 | From: Southport, UK | Registered: Dec 2001
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The Lad Himself
Accidental stowaway
# 2073
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Posted
And yes, I must agree on the schizophrenia thing. It's such a blanket term anyway, doctors really use it (IMHO) to cover a vast tract of different types of psychotic illness... and besides, mental illness is very powerfully moderated by the sufferer's personality.
I'm not schizophrenic, I'm psychotic depressive. I'm very well now, apart from occasional fits of giggles at my own jokes. But this thread isn't about that, except to say that I've met even nurses who thought that once any person was mentally ill, they remained that way for life. This is palpably nonsense. Psychosis can be acute like anything else.
Of course, as long as the media use the term "schizophrenia" to mean anything (political party, newspaper, novel) without a clear sense of its own identity, we're never going to educate anyone.
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new blog: crazywise.org
Posts: 2302 | From: Southport, UK | Registered: Dec 2001
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auntbeast
Shipmate
# 377
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Posted
With apologies for adding a little bit to the mental health tangent....
As a social worker in the forensic system here I deal with lots of people with a variety of mental illnesses who commit all sorts of crimes from the very tiny to the truly gruesome. Twilight is correct, someone with active symptoms of schizophrenia would be unlikely to organize themselves sufficiently to commit these sort of calculated atrocities. The few and far between violent crimes by schizophrenics usually make little sense and are a result of people acting on their hallucintations or delusions. They are much more likely to be the victims of crime.
These sorts of crimes are much more the actions of psychopaths (which is a completely different things from being psychotic, or schizophrenic). Psychopathy is the term used to describe a particularly nasty personality disorder including remorselessness. For a good lay read on the subject, Dr. Robert Hare has written a book called "without conscience" which gives a good, non academic look at psychopathy.
End of tangent
As for the Op and this particular criminal. I have no idea if she is in hell or not now, that is up to God. I do know she is no longer here, never again going to have access to victims, and hopefully the families of the victims can now rest.
Thanks for indulging the tangent, confusion between psychopaths and the psychotic leads to an awful lot of unecessary fear of the mentally ill.
All good things,
Auntbeast
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"My vices are the children of a forced solitude that I abhor; and my virtues will necessarily arise when I live in communion with an equal" - Mary Shelley (Frankenstein)
Posts: 820 | From: Vancouver, Canada | Registered: Jun 2001
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
Thankyou, Twilight, for your reminder about the difference in public perceptions of Schizophrenia and its reality. I hope one day the stigmatisation wil be over.
'frin
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
There have probably been other threads, but given the topic..
quote:
IMO, sentences should be fixed in court, and only changed when additional crimes are charged and convicted
Unlike the poster, I am aginst the death penalty, but the corolloary is that we should mean LIFE when the sentence is LIFE. That is actually what the court prescribed, indeed in the U.K. it is the only sentence for murder.
Once a court has given a sentence, who can overturn or interpret it. Home Secretaries act for the Crown, and I see no reason why the Crown (in parliament) can't decide who has the power of releasing a life prisoner, and if that be the Home Secretary, I don't have a problem with that. The problem was that everyone kept on going to court, and unfortunately Ms Hindley never accepted that, however changed she might have been (and I hope she actually was, though can't prove either way), there were consequences to her actions which might need to last her whole life given what she had done. So she and others went to court, giving the media a field day each time, whipping up hysteria, which ultimately led to the sick headlines when she died.
But her ultimate fate has nothing to do with the above!"
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MCC:
the corolloary is that we should mean LIFE when the sentence is LIFE. That is actually what the court prescribed, indeed in the U.K. it is the only sentence for murder.
Oh, I agree entirely that in the absence of stretching a capital criminal's neck, they should not be allowed freedom during their allotted span. The problem is that life didn't mean life. The HomeSec changed the tarrif on a number of occasions and extended it and extended it and extended it...
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
To Life.
What you are talking about is the tariff, a very bizarre concept in my view.
Especially when the judges involved also thought that it should stretch that far. And for some (inc. Brady, Yorkshire Ripper etc) it does.
Yes I know the accusation that this was politicians pandering to the media and voters etc. I don't really have much of an argument against the technical point. However
1) Just where would she have gone that was safe???
2) Why should she?
3) There are, actually, some crimes which deserve actual life imprisonment. Not that all murderers necessarily should go that far (battered wives etc deserve far more humane treatment.)
Life isn't 30 years, that is the suggested max. tariff, and many stay inside less. Some go further (see above). IMO, for all the wrong reasons perhaps, Home Secretaries made the right decision here.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MCC:
1) Just where would she have gone that was safe???
2) Why should she?
3) There are, actually, some crimes which deserve actual life imprisonment. Not that all murderers necessarily should go that far (battered wives etc deserve far more humane treatment.)
Barring the difference in opinion over the death penalty you'll probably find you and I in broad agreement, but to address your points:
1) She probably would have been extended the same provisions as the Bulger killers. In the eyes of the law, flawed or otherwise, she would have "paid her price to society" (sic.) and would have been afforded the full protection of the law, especially from the grunting, tabloid reading illiterati (ooh, hark at me - Hellish ). The iconic nature of the peroxide blonde photograph from around the time of the original trial is - arguably - burned into the British psyche (sp?), so would they know if a mousey brunette 50+ y/o female be conspicuous? I don't think so.
2)Do you mean why should she seek safety in society? Again, if she's paid her debt she would seek liberty and anonymity
3) Totally agree. They should be locked away, and given only the minimum environment to subsist. To take the example of the battered wife - they should not be punished at all. I believe in those cases justifiable homicide would be upheld.
LFD
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
eleighteen:
I am a sinner, rescued by the grace of Christ alone. I know that I have not earnt the change that God has wrought in my life. But does that mean that I want to be punished for my sin? Actually, the precise opposite. Being free from my sin (i.e. coming to terms with it by acknowledging it) means I have to live with its consequences but it also means I now have the chance to grow, move on and live a redeemed life.
The analogy with Hindley is obvious: clearly her crimes were utterly evil and ripped apart the lives of so many, not just the children concerned but so many around them, and thank you to the folk on this board who have drawn our thoughts back to those people. Clearly Hindley deserved to be punished. But if she was truly sorry and was convinced she was reformed then seeking a new life rather than dwelling in the old is the most natural thing to do.
I won't go into the arguments for/against the death penalty as it could not be less relevant. The point was that she had served her penalty under the law of the land.
quote:
For some inane and frankly incomprehensible reason you also said:
"Paul Dacre, you had a succesful career editing a populist newspaper, which ran much campaigning journalism hoping to better the world. But you didn't share my Guardian reading sensibili... er.. I mean accept me as your personal saviour. Depart thee cursed into the everlasting fire..
"Myra Hindley, you brutally murdered six children but prayed the sinners pray..... ..wait - oh a left-footer - ... erm.. ..partook in death cookies, you're in"
As a parting question, what do you believe the everlasting fate of her child victims to be? Chances are they didn't "accept Christ".
Incidentally, I'm sorry it took me a while to reply to this. That's because the above left me so speechless I had to go away and cool off for a while.
A simple question (however sick and moronic) deserves a simple answer. I believe that those children are in the arms of the loving and merciful Jesus, where they will spend eternity.
As for the other stuff: who did Jesus reject? The sinful folk who knew that their sins were gross, horrific and without excuse? Or the judgmental, sanctimonious, self-righteous prigs who told the sinners that they were outside of God's love?
If there's to be any hope for me I sure hope it was the former.
Sean
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
[Continuing the mental health tangent]
I didn't bring up schizophrenia to link it, and therefore those who are schizophrenic, with the crime, or indeed with Myra Hindley herself. I was responding to a tangent by Gunner, concerning various types of mental, emotional and moral illness.
Certain 'types' of schizophrenia, and certain groups of symptoms (schizophrenia, as various people pointed out, is a huge catch-all term) can be attributed to various brain abnormalities AFAIK. Things like larger fluid spaces, smaller frontal lobes, different electrical patterns over the surface of the thalamus during hallucinations, that type of thing. This seems to suggest that the brain is abnormally wired in these cases, and cannot therefore be 'cured' - we cannot rewire brains, or change the size of areas etc. Symptoms can be treated with drugs however.
This was all I was trying to say to Gunner: that various mental illnesses have different causes, which determine (to a certain extent) their treatment. Some emotional illnesses are classed as mental illnesses when they reach the abnormal levels. Some moral illnesses can be treated as menatl illnesses - whether they should be is another matter. But I digress now.
I apologise if any offense was taken - none was intended.
[/Tangent]
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
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SteveTom
Contributing Editor
# 23
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Posted
The crucial issue I think is not whether certain crimes should be punished with imprisonment until death, but who should decide.
In Hindley's case the lord chief justice said she should serve 25 years. Subsequent Home Secretaries have refused to release her, till she died after 36 years. No politician ever would or could have released her, because they would be crucified by the press.
In other words, the decision of the judiciary is overturned by the media. This is not a good thing The fact that the Home Sec is soon to be relieved of such duties is.
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I saw a naked picture of me on the internet
Wearing Jesus's new snowshoes.
Well, golly gee.
- Eels
Posts: 1363 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
And el18, I shall echo what others have said.
On the paedophilia thread we were debating the just punishment for paedophiles; their punishment in this life, and in this world. In this thread, about Myra Hindley, we are debating her destination in the next, and whether God has forgiven her, or even if it is for us to judge.
Speaking personally I know that I forgive a hell of a lot slower than God does. Just because I cannot or will not forgive someone, does not mean that God cannot or will not. Whether He does is between the person and Him.
To quote someone else (not on this thread): If we sincerely repent, He has to forgive us; it's written in the Bible.
Viki
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
quote:
Posted by sarkycow:
To quote someone else (not on this thread): If we sincerely repent, He has to forgive us; it's written in the Bible.
I love that quote - consider it memorised.
Viki - it must have cost you dear to say that. Voluntarily giving up the denizens of your hellish realms? A hellhost with a heart, what more could you ask for.
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
On the technical side, I am fairly sure that a tariff is the length of time before a lifer will be considered for release on licence - not a guaranteed release date. Long term prisoners are subject to frequent reviews and risk assessment as their possible parole dates come up. Risk assessment is not done on one person's opinion but builds up a composite picture. The prisoner has a right to challenge the decision legally but must present very good evidence to support the claim that the risk is lower than reported. I think it is quite likely that the risk assessment on Myra Hindley never came out as low and that is why she was never released.
If a prisoner's sentence ends, there is nothing that can be done to retain him/her at the end of the sentence, however much of a risk they pose to the public. A life sentence DOES mean life because they need to be risk assessed as 'low' before they can be released, and if after release they get into any kind of trouble they are sent back to gaol to serve more of their sentence inside.
Strangely, most people who work in prisons live 'in society' and so are no more keen on releasing dangerous people 'into society' than anyone else.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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