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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Getting to grips with Anglo-Catholicism
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by The 103rd:
quote:
The Pope can change certain things, but surely if one pope says "ah, women priests are ok now" and then he finds that he has made a mistake, you get women bishops, those women bishops ordain both men and women who are not valid. The result: True Christianity dies out - then we're basically f*cked.
Make your mind up. Either the Pope is the Vicar of God and can pronounce infallibly on these matters, in which case he could, in theory, pronounce that the ordination of women was a good thing. Alternatively he isn't in which case your Anglo-Papalism is, to coin a phrase, basically f*cked.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by The 103rd:
quote:
The Pope can change certain things, but surely if one pope says "ah, women priests are ok now" and then he finds that he has made a mistake, you get women bishops, those women bishops ordain both men and women who are not valid. The result: True Christianity dies out - then we're basically f*cked.
Make your mind up. Either the Pope is the Vicar of God and can pronounce infallibly on these matters, in which case he could, in theory, pronounce that the ordination of women was a good thing. Alternatively he isn't in which case your Anglo-Papalism is, to coin a phrase, basically f*cked.
This is my story
This is my song
And I'm sticking to it!
I seriously doubt that the Roman Catholic Church would be foolish enough to allow women priests anyway!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Geneva Gown ON
Ordination of women is a Dead Horse. No more of it on this thread, or any other MW thread.
Geneva Gown OFF
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
Let's just get our notions of Papal Infallibility a bit better worked out shall we?
The Pope, through his position as Vicar of Christ, is not infallable about everything. If the Pope said it was raining and it wasn't then it wouldn't mean it was raining. Where the Pope can be regarded as infallible is on major points of doctrine and dogma where he speaks on behalf of the Church that he has been called to lead. That Church is regarded as the Body of Christ and, as such, is guided and led by the Holy Spirit which, being divine, cannot be mistaken. Therefore the Pope, on certain major issues of dogma such as the Assumption of Our Lady is speaking the mind of the Church of God and thus the will of the Holy Spirit.
I agree that the major objection to this is that, as weak and sinful men, we may misread or misinterpret the will of the Paraclete. However, it can be argued that God would not want, on such weighty issues, His Church to teach errors which might lead his chosen people away from the truth. Thus the Pope, as Vicar of Christ, is infallible as he pronounces the will of God through His Church.
You can disagree with this (as many RC's do of course) but it has a certain logic.
In this way a Pope cannot simply say 'women can be ordained priests' and then a later one say 'no they can't'. A Pope, in such a matter as this, has to speak on behalf of the Church for ever not simply his own mind or wish at that particular time.
(by the way, this is not a post about the ordination of women; merely one about the Holy Father)
Cosmo
[ 06. July 2004, 21:55: Message edited by: Cosmo ]
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Geneva Gown ON
Ordination of women is a Dead Horse. No more of it on this thread, or any other MW thread.
Geneva Gown OFF
I said that further up actually, but people ignored me.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Let's just get our notions of Papal Infallibility a bit better worked out shall we?
The Pope, through his position as Vicar of Christ, is not infallable about everything. If the Pope said it was raining and it wasn't then it wouldn't mean it was raining. Where the Pope can be regarded as infallible is on major points of doctrine and dogma where he speaks on behalf of the Church that he has been called to lead. That Church is regarded as the Body of Christ and, as such, is guided and led by the Holy Spirit which, being divine, cannot be mistaken. Therefore the Pope, on certain major issues of dogma such as the Assumption of Our Lady is speaking the mind of the Church of God and thus the will of the Holy Spirit.
I agree that the major objection to this is that, as weak and sinful men, we may misread or misinterpret the will of the Paraclete. However, it can be argued that God would not want, on such weighty issues, His Church to teach errors which might lead his chosen people away from the truth. Thus the Pope, as Vicar of Christ, is infallible as he pronounces the will of God through His Church.
You can disagree with this (as many RC's do of course) but it has a certain logic.
In this way a Pope cannot simply say 'women can be ordained priests' and then a later one say 'no they can't'. A Pope, in such a matter as this, has to speak on behalf of the Church for ever not simply his own mind or wish at that particular time.
(by the way, this is not a post about the ordination of women; merely one about the Holy Father)
Cosmo
My poor head, I don't suppose many people have the chance to have this conversation to this degree of complexity at the ripe old age of 16.
Right, let's see if I can understand what you have just said.
What the pope says is pretty much right, he's a well educated man, who is serving God.
I can't do anything that is against my consiounce - if the pope told me to do something, or to accept something that I thought was wrong, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't agree with it.
If I felt he was going to ruin Christianity, I would do something to stop it.
Take the Society of St Pius X, they are Catholic, they call themselves catholic - although the church in Rome doesn't see them as catholics anymore - but they have decided that they think that Novus Ordo Masses are wrong and that the only true mass is the Tridentrine Mass. I respect them for that - and I think it's good that they are standing up for their beliefs because they feel that anything other than the Latin Mass is invalid and that the pope made a rather big decision.
As of yet - the pope hasn't made a wrong decision in my humblest of opinions, I do think that the Anglican Church did.
I don't think that the pope will make a decision about allowing women into priesthood - as he is right.
I hope I understood what you were trying to get at and I hope you understand what I'm trying to say
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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leonato
Shipmate
# 5124
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Posted
quote:
The 103rd said:
Our Lady of Lourdes glow-in-the-dark Statue
The badge of a true Anglo-Catholic! I bow down before you my friend ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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leonato... Much Ado
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by corpusdelicti:
quote:
The 103rd said:
Our Lady of Lourdes glow-in-the-dark Statue
The badge of a true Anglo-Catholic! I bow down before you my friend
Oh comeon - my momma used to put it by my bedside when I was young and scared of the dark!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
That statement doesn't contradict Article XXV, it explains it.
Ah yes, so it does. Just gone back and re-read article 25. It doesn't quite say what I'd always thought it said! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
(I'm pleased to find, however, that I'm more in agreement with it than I thought I was!)
(Sorry for the delayed response - only just got a web connection back...)
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Baptised not Lobotomised
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I'm pretty sure papal infallibility is also a dead horse, so I won't ask about the Crusades, etc....
How interesting that of the four main "parties" within the C of E (ACs, charismatics, evangelicals, liberals) only evangelicals and liberals seem to be mutually exclusive. And even then, it's complicated, because there are lots of ways in which people can be evangelical or liberal.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
I'm pretty sure papal infallibility is also a dead horse, so I won't ask about the Crusades, etc....
I'm not sure whether papal infallibility is a dead horse, but the question you are not asking reveals a large misunderstanding of the doctrine. The doctrine (which is a modern innovation only being promulgated in the 19th Century c. 1870 I believe) is very narrow in scope and only applies to certain things, mainly doctrinal. I've certainly never heard it applied to the crusades, indeed did not the Pope offer an apology for them a couple of years back?
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
As of yet - the pope hasn't made a wrong decision in my humblest of opinions
What about his views on the validity of AngloCatholic sacraments, then?
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
As of yet - the pope hasn't made a wrong decision in my humblest of opinions
What about his views on the validity of AngloCatholic sacraments, then?
I don't think he even knows of Anglo Catholics - we need to force him to go to an AC Mass - At the moment he thinks we're a load of prots!
Oh, and I don't think it was THIS pope who made the decision, I think the sacraments would said to be invalid a very long time ago.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Crotalus
Shipmate
# 4959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CIII:
At the moment he thinks we're a load of prots!
And that Rowan Williams is a doubtfully baptized layman!
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Wayward Crucifer
Shipmate
# 152
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Posted
And he seems to be careful to avoid saying anything that could be taken as recognizing Anglican orders. I gather, that when he visited Canturbury in 1982, despite being given several opportunities to by comments made by Abp. Runcie, he did not say anything that could have understood as accepting Runcie's episcopal nature.
And what's a century to the Roman Church?
Wayward
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"it is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the Throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children. It cannot be done."
Frank Weston, Bishop of Zanzibar
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
Jesus didn't have discipless' and I don't think he ever would in modern times!
-103
He certainly wouldn't have had in his own time -- look at the scandal Mary Magdalene caused -- but I'm not so sure about modern times.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
I actually can understand why the pope wouldn't see Anglican Orders as valid - i mean, there are churches in the Church of England who are distinctivly protestant. They pride themselves by saying that "Communion is a SYMBOL of the body and blood of christ" and they have women "ministers" and the strangest thing is that we are in communion with them - yet we are completly different. If the holy church in Rome was to see our orders as valid, then the RC Church would have to change docterines etc. to be able to hold the Protestant Churches (if the protestant churches didn't storm out in protest)
And the RC Church can't exactly say "Well Anglo-Catholic churches are allowed into our communion, but all the rest of the church of england, you aren't invited"
I'm not entirely comfortable with having the more protestant bodies of the church of england in communion with myself - so Rome definatly won't like it!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Did Rome rescind Cranmer's bishophood? If not, they really ought to recognise all of the C of E folk.
On the whole papal infallibility thing, I understand it only refers to proclamations made ex cathedra, but I vaguely remembered there was such a proclamation at the time of the Crusades that anyone killing an infidel gained a place in heaven or something.
The issue would be that if the Pope had made two contradictory infallible proclamations, then the system doesn't seem to work.
[ 07. July 2004, 12:44: Message edited by: Custard123 ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
Did Rome rescind Cranmer's bishophood? If not, they really ought to recognise all of the C of E folk.
On the whole papal infallibility thing, I understand it only refers to proclamations made ex cathedra, but I vaguely remembered there was such a proclamation at the time of the Crusades that anyone killing an infidel gained a place in heaven or something.
The issue would be that if the Pope had made two contradictory infallible proclamations, then the system doesn't seem to work.
Yeah - I think the Roman Catholic Church say that the first archbishop of canterbury was ordained in the nag's head in LDN.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
Did Rome rescind Cranmer's bishophood?
Yes, sort-of, in a kind of way. And then they burned him.
You need to catch up on some Reformation History. Where's my copy of Acts and Monuments when I need it?
Ah... Google is my friend...
Read some of the sorry story of Cranmer's condemnation, recantation, re-condemnation, de-recantation and eventual martyrdom at
justus.org
Also of course of Latimer and Ridley, who were more consistent, though also martyred.
[quote]Be of good cheer, Master Ridley, and play the man, for we shall this day light such a candle in England as I trust by God' grace shall never be put out. [quote]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I knew Mary had Cranmer, Latimer, Ridley et al executed. I was wondering whether Rome had decided that Cranmer was never a bishop...
Oh, while I'm on here,
How would you define Anglo-Catholicism?
What are the distinctive beliefs / practices which help you tell whether someone is AC or not?
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Elephenor
Shipmate
# 4026
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
I was wondering whether Rome had decided that Cranmer was never a bishop...
So far as I am aware there has never been any suggestion that Cramner was not a bishop (a secret and illegal marriage does not invalidate consecration), and indeed a Papal Legate (a title - and powers - he continued to employ for some time after the split from Rome).
The rot supposedly set in with Archbishop Parker, I understand.
[ 07. July 2004, 14:35: Message edited by: Elephenor ]
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"Man is...a `eucharistic' animal." (Kallistos Ware)
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
How would you define Anglo-Catholicism?
What are the distinctive beliefs / practices which help you tell whether someone is AC or not?
As discussed further up in the discussion - beliefs vary between Anglo Catholics - there are ACs like me who are more like Roman Catholics but in the Anglican Communion, and then there are Anglo Catholics which are more like Anglicans who have a Medieval style of service that is more like the pre reformation style services and then there are Anglo Catholics who worship in a style like the Oxford Movement with some Catholic things, but no marian stuff and it is still distictavly Anglican.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Mountain Man
Shipmate
# 5115
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
Marrage is only for the procreation of life!
Really? So where does that leave people like my fiancé and myself who don't want to have children then? I think you'll find marriage is bigger than just procreation.
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Life is a mountain not a beach!
Me, My Blog, My Work
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
Marrage is only for the procreation of life!
Really? So where does that leave people like my fiancé and myself who don't want to have children then? I think you'll find marriage is bigger than just procreation.
You get married to be able to have intercourse don't you? Intercourse is meant for procreation of life innit! Pretty Simple! If you aren't planning on having kids then there is no point in doing it is there? That's my opinions and you might not like it, but that's it!
You can love somebody without needing to be married, but if you want to do 'it' then you should be married first.
-103
[ 07. July 2004, 14:53: Message edited by: The103rd ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard123:
I was wondering whether Rome had decided that Cranmer was never a bishop...
Hardly. They couldn't do that because they appointed him in the first place - or at least approved his appointment.
I don't think the Roman church thinks that you can stop being a priest or bishop - but you can be removed from any office you hold and the duties and rights and privileges that go with it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
Marrage is only for the procreation of life!
Really? So where does that leave people like my fiancé and myself who don't want to have children then? I think you'll find marriage is bigger than just procreation.
You get married to be able to have intercourse don't you? Intercourse is meant for procreation of life innit! Pretty Simple! If you aren't planning on having kids then there is no point in doing it is there? That's my opinions and you might not like it, but that's it!
You can love somebody without needing to be married, but if you want to do 'it' then you should be married first.
-103
Henry. That may qualify as the most offensive thing you've ever said on the ship.
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Baptised not Lobotomised
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
Marrage is only for the procreation of life!
Really? So where does that leave people like my fiancé and myself who don't want to have children then? I think you'll find marriage is bigger than just procreation.
You get married to be able to have intercourse don't you? Intercourse is meant for procreation of life innit! Pretty Simple! If you aren't planning on having kids then there is no point in doing it is there? That's my opinions and you might not like it, but that's it!
You can love somebody without needing to be married, but if you want to do 'it' then you should be married first.
-103
Henry. That may qualify as the most offensive thing you've ever said on the ship.
OK - prehaps I should withdraw that last comment - I was trying to explain it without causing offense but obviously I have caused offense. Sorry.
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Mountain Man
Shipmate
# 5115
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
You get married to be able to have intercourse don't you?
Actually we are getting married because we love each other.
I like the way the BCP puts it :-
It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity.
Anyone who gets married just for sex might like to look at the bit of the service that says;
nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, lightly, or wantonly, to satisfy men's carnal lusts and appetites, like brute beasts that have no understanding
quote:
Intercourse is meant for procreation of life innit! Pretty Simple! If you aren't planning on having kids then there is no point in doing it is there?
No. Plenty of other reasons.
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Life is a mountain not a beach!
Me, My Blog, My Work
Posts: 320 | From: Coventry, United Kingdom | Registered: Oct 2003
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Geneva Gown ON
I don't know where to begin. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Papal Infallibility is not a Dead Horse to the best of my knowledge, but discussions of that are beyond the scope of MW. Take that to Purgatory.
Discussions of the purpose of intercourse are not by any stretch of the imagination a subject for MW. Take them to Purgatory as well, but do watch how you word things, to avoid being called to Hell.
"My worship pracitice is better than your worship practice" isn't a discussion. It's just bickering and generally rude. Knock it off.
This thread had better justify it's existence as more than just a nastier version of the AC for Beginners thread referred to earlier, else it will be closed.
Geneva Gown OFF
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Fooferan
Shipmate
# 6830
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Posted
Oh dear, can I comment while staying in the purview of the MW?
According to BCP 1662, quote:
duly considering the causes for which Matrimony was ordained.
First, It was ordained for the procreation of children, to be brought up in the fear and nurture of the Lord, and to the praise of his holy Name.
Secondly, It was ordained for a remedy against sin, and to avoid fornication; that such persons as have not the gift of continency might marry, and keep themselves undefiled members of Christ's body.
Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity.
AFAIK inability to procreate has not kept people from marrying in the CofE. No fertility tests or such to qualify....
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"Who is most true and pleasing to thee then
When she is embraced and open to most men." John Donne
Posts: 186 | From: Guadalajara, Mexico | Registered: May 2004
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Fooferan
Shipmate
# 6830
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fooferan:
Oh dear, can I comment while staying in the purview of the MW?
According to BCP 1662, quote:
duly considering the causes for which Matrimony was ordained.
First, It was ordained for the procreation of children, to be brought up in the fear and nurture of the Lord, and to the praise of his holy Name.
Secondly, It was ordained for a remedy against sin, and to avoid fornication; that such persons as have not the gift of continency might marry, and keep themselves undefiled members of Christ's body.
Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity.
AFAIK inability to procreate has not kept people from marrying in the CofE. No fertility tests or such to qualify....
[ETA--Sorry Mountainman, somehow missed your post before posting]
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"Who is most true and pleasing to thee then
When she is embraced and open to most men." John Donne
Posts: 186 | From: Guadalajara, Mexico | Registered: May 2004
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Geneva Gown ON
No, you didn't stay in bounds.
I mean it. No more discussions of the purpose of sex.
Geneva Gown OFF
[ 08. July 2004, 04:09: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
I'll put this thread into a different gear shall I?
Are there any dioceses where you are more likely to find an Anglo Catholic Church?
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
Are there any dioceses where you are more likely to find an Anglo Catholic Church?
London. Chichester.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Cosmo
Shipmate
# 117
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Posted
Truro and bits of Exeter. If by Anglo-Catholic you include Aff-Caff shacks then Southwark is crawling with them. Wakefield has quite a few. Some dioceses are more traditional than others (Peterborough for example or Sodor and Man) but not neccessarily A/C. Otherwise you're left with the city centres and the slums up and down the country.
Overseas you have the Dioceses of Fort Worth, Quincy and most of the Church in South Africa. Depending on which missionary society missioned them, the dioceses in Africa vary. The Church in Nigeria is almost exclusively evangelical whereas Ghana is very A/C (especially Kofidura - sp?) The most Anglo-Catholic diocese in the world is probably Ballarat (mind you, it's pretty small).
Cosmo
Posts: 2375 | Registered: May 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Parts of Oxford, certainly the city itself. I understood that the church in the West Indies was pretty A/C - is that actually true?
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
I understood that the church in the West Indies was pretty A/C - is that actually true?
Many of our West Indian parishioners have what they would call a "High Church" background. They point out that back in Jamaica or Barbados if you wanted to be an evangelical you probably were a Baptist, so the Anglicans tended to get the ritual-lovers.
Some of them have even been seen to cross themselves ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) - a rarity in our evangelical church.
Whether their home churches would have come up to the rarified standards needed to qualify as "Anglo Catholic" for the discerning ritualists on the Ship is something I'm not qualified to comment on.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
If by Anglo-Catholic you include Aff-Caff shacks then Southwark is crawling with them.
I can certainly confirm this about our bit of Southwark. Of the 7 parishes in our deanery 3 are "open evangelical" and the others more or less Aff-Cath (though if you don't count places like St. Paul's, Deptford or All Saint's, Hatcham as "Anglo Catholic" your candle must be very High indeed) There are 22 parishes in neighbouring Lewisham deaneries, and almost all are some sort of AC. (Including IIRC at least 2 FiF)
Things are even further up the candle in Brighton, (my home town) where Anglicanism was more or less a sea of mostly poorly attended Anglo-Catholic parishes with 2 or 3 islands of Evangelicalism - with much larger congregations. There is now a plan afoot to transfer St. Peter's Brighton (the new parish church for the town - the old one is St. Nicholas on Dyke Road) to one of the evangelical congregations in the hope that they will be large enough to raise enough money to look after the building. I suspect the plan will come to nothing.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Overseas you have the Dioceses of Fort Worth, Quincy
and of course almost all of the Diocese of Chicago and almost anyplace in Wisconsin.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Henry103:
Marrage is only for the procreation of life!
I'm sorry to hear that your strain of Anglo-Catholicism excludes from Holy Matrimony, those who are infertile, and those who are past child-bearing age.
Does your parish priest have a pastorally-sensitive process set up for occasions when he is confronted with a couple incorporating one or more infertile person enquiring about marriage?
I would be interested to know if there are any tailor-made liturgies for the blessing of such relationships instead of a wedding, and if so, what your views on this are on the adoption of liturgies based on theology that is not in accordance with your aforementioned ACTTRCAP Catholic outlook.
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Pax Britannica
Shipmate
# 1876
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
The most Anglo-Catholic diocese in the world is probably Ballarat (mind you, it's pretty small).
I would venture to offer Your Grace the diocese of Sarawak. Albeit within the orbit of Singapore (which, though exceedingly sound in many ways, has gone sadly astray in the wearing of birettas and the use of incense) the influence of His Highness Rajah James Brooke in establishing an independent diocese in his dominions enabled a quite different churchmanship which has flourished to this day. As is invariably the case, Full Catholic Privileges™ ensure large and thriving congregations in that southern isle. High Mass at S. Thomas Cathedral, Kuching, is quite an experience.
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Fooferan
Shipmate
# 6830
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
<snip> I understood that the church in the West Indies was pretty A/C - is that actually true?
This was true in my experience. I was in the Diocese of Guyana (which included Suriname), part of the Province of the West Indies. Things had a very "Catholic" flavor, and indeed our priest and the bishop were on very good terms with the RC in Paramaribo (capitol of Suriname).
People crossed themselves, prayed the Hail Mary, etc. The Eucharist was celebrated with all due ceremony including incense, whenever Father Thomas could make it over from Guyana (once a month or less). Things were a bit looser when we lay readers did Morning Prayer; we often didn't have an organist--usually didn't sing Matins w/gusto.... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Although--dare I mention it--the WI BCP seems to owe much to the 1979 Episcopal Prayer Book....
Bishop George ("his Lordship") didn't have a problem with my preaching and leading services as a lay reader, but when personnel are scarce you take what you can get. . . .
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"Who is most true and pleasing to thee then
When she is embraced and open to most men." John Donne
Posts: 186 | From: Guadalajara, Mexico | Registered: May 2004
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Casting a stern eye at Back-to-Front:
Quick Hostly Reminder
Since we're on a new page, and some people might not be aware of previous Host Warnings:
Any discussion of procreation as the sole purpose of marriage belongs in Hell or Purgatory and is not a suitable subject for MW.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Panis Angelicus
Shipmate
# 3795
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Posted
Fr. Crotalus: You may be right about Fr. Lowder being the first English priest to be called "Father," but I do think the Americans were quite ahead of the English if that is the case. James Lloyd Breck was referring to men like Richard Fish Cadle as "Father Cadle" back in 1841:
quote:
Brother Hobart suggests the propriety of his preceding us by a week or two, as Father Cadle wished to visit his mother before returning West, not having seen her for five years. Brother Adams and myself leave for New York to-morrow morning to digest preliminaries. We hope to return to Bristol, with permission to remain until the first of September.
from his letters
quote:
Originally posted by Crotalus:
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
Protestants stopped calling priests "Father" as a way of marking themselves off from Roman Catholics.
Priests (at least secular priests) were not called "Father" until long after the reformation; in mediaeval times they were called "Sir".
Among English recusants priests were addressed as "Mr" until the late nineteenth century. It seems that use of the title "Father" arose at the same time in RC and AC circles. I have indeed heard the opinion maintained that the first English (secular) priest to be called "Father" was Charles Lowder (an anglican - of St Peter's, London Docks)
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"Was there any difficulty in the Bishop's putting his hand in your bosom, arising from the fashion of your dress?"--Trial of Bishop Onderdonk of New York, 1844, p. 62.
Posts: 406 | From: New York City | Registered: Dec 2002
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Fooferan
Shipmate
# 6830
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Posted
More thoughts on A/C practice in the West Indies....
Some of the finer points of A/C observance as put forth on the MW board depend on funds and resources not available worldwide. Our paraments and linens weren't all quite up to snuff. I worked on getting some new stuff made, but was only able to take it so far-- and that was with my donating significantly towards fabric. The priest wasn't around much of the time, leaving things in the hands of not-always-well-informed laypeople. Sometimes people were confused as to the liturgical season/color. We had one server, and when he didn't show up--well, you make do.
Not to mention that the climate is not at all conducive to the donning of full vestments. . . . ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) (I'm not mad, I'm just roasting in the tropical heat and humidity.) No air conditioning of course. The church didn't even have a vacuum cleaner to properly care for the section of red carpet at the front (the rest of the floor was concrete). I always had to spritz my legs with bugspray or they'd be eaten alive during the service, and it doesn't do for the leader to be scratching away in the prie dieu. (Sometimes my baby played beneath it though.) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Who is most true and pleasing to thee then
When she is embraced and open to most men." John Donne
Posts: 186 | From: Guadalajara, Mexico | Registered: May 2004
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Panis Angelicus
Shipmate
# 3795
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Posted
PB, are you sure it's not the Diocese of Kuching you're meaning?
One of their parishes has a website on which we can find out that we are their "humble visitors."
There's also St. Helena, quite an Anglo-Catholic place, with ordained subdeacons and I believe a constitutional ban of some kind on innovations in the apostolic ministry.
quote:
Originally posted by Pax Britannica:
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
The most Anglo-Catholic diocese in the world is probably Ballarat (mind you, it's pretty small).
I would venture to offer Your Grace the diocese of Sarawak. Albeit within the orbit of Singapore (which, though exceedingly sound in many ways, has gone sadly astray in the wearing of birettas and the use of incense) the influence of His Highness Rajah James Brooke in establishing an independent diocese in his dominions enabled a quite different churchmanship which has flourished to this day. As is invariably the case, Full Catholic Privileges™ ensure large and thriving congregations in that southern isle. High Mass at S. Thomas Cathedral, Kuching, is quite an experience.
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"Was there any difficulty in the Bishop's putting his hand in your bosom, arising from the fashion of your dress?"--Trial of Bishop Onderdonk of New York, 1844, p. 62.
Posts: 406 | From: New York City | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Tangent alert:
quote:
Originally posted by Fooferan:
I was in the Diocese of Guyana (which included Suriname), part of the Province of the West Indies.
This reminds me of an occasion a few years back when we hosted a service for the Association of Guyanese Nurses. I was cringing in embarrassment when the visiting preacher kept referring to "your beautiful island" .
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Fiddleback
Shipmate
# 2809
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The103rd:
I'll put this thread into a different gear shall I?
Are there any dioceses where you are more likely to find an Anglo Catholic Church?
-103
Llandaff, traditionally, but less so these days.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: May 2002
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
I think it takes a very particular kind of argument to say that Article XXV allows for seven sacraments simply because the other five aren't explicitly ruled out. Including words like 'corrupt' in their description, and also using 'state of life' as opposed to 'Sacrament of the Gospel' makes the intentions of the authors pretty clear IMHO.
The Catechism in the 1662 BCP explicitly states that there are two only.
Better to quote Anglicans Online:
quote:
The Thirty-Nine Articles were important at the Reformation, but are less so today.
It might not be un-Anglican to believe in seven sacraments, but it can't be done from the Thirty Nine Articles.
[ 12. July 2004, 06:56: Message edited by: Sir George Grey. ]
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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