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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The till at the doorway
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Newman's Own
Shipmate
# 420
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Posted
I am fully aware that cathedrals and other church buildings require large maintenance costs, and that some visitors are, let us say, at Saint Paul's Cathedral to view where Diana got married rather than for religious reasons. Nonetheless, I am very sorry that the fees (and tills at the door) can prevent those of us who are entering to pray from doing so.
I'll not go into details here, but I occasionally have reason to be in the areas of great cathedrals. I try to attend a service, but sometimes am not there at a time when one is scheduled. Though the fees being asked would not be unreasonable were someone visiting a 'tourist attraction,' I am embarrassed to admit that, since my income is very limited, I cannot afford to pay the requested amounts. Yet I am concerned that, if I say so, it may seem that I'm looking for a 'free tour.'
When I'm reviewing notes and preparing essays, I love to pray in such churches, then sit in the close or garden. I find it very embarrassing to tell those at the door, the more because I indeed am aware of the large costs associated with maintaining buildings.
What do other Ship mates suggest I (or others in a comparable situation) do? (I hesitated to mention it here, though it seemed the right place, after, on a thread a few months ago, I learnt that some mystery worshippers leave donations in the plate, just attending a service, which would feed me for a week.)
[ 23. October 2007, 12:03: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
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Cheers,
Elizabeth
“History as Revelation is seldom very revealing, and histories of holiness are full of holes.” - Dermot Quinn
Posts: 6740 | From: Library or pub | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
"I'm afraid I don't have my purse with me. I've just come to say a prayer or two and then be on my way." (Of course, won't work if you have purse in tow.)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
"Can you please direct me to the Blessed Sacrament? I've come to pray."
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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The Gentle Duffie
Shipmate
# 10901
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Posted
I often leave a small donation all the same. After all, if it goes to support the fabrick, or the continued availability of an open church, I'm eager to contribute.
Posts: 266 | From: Foreign Parts | Registered: Jan 2006
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
When I'm reviewing notes and preparing essays,...
You're reviewing notes and preparing essays? And that makes you superior to the tourists in some way?
quote:
... I love to pray in such churches, then sit in the close or garden.
And of course not a single one of the tourists feels the same way or is looking for the same experience.
quote:
I find it very embarrassing to tell those at the door,...
If you're legitimately an impoverished devout, why would you be embarrassed?
quote:
...the more because I indeed am aware of the large costs associated with maintaining buildings.
Once again, if you are legitimately an impoverished devout, your prayers will make up for your lack of money. Or simply give what you can (25 cents is more than nothing), forget about it and move on.
quote:
What do other Ship mates suggest I (or others in a comparable situation) do?
I've given my suggestions.
quote:
(I hesitated to mention it here, though it seemed the right place, after, on a thread a few months ago, I learnt that some mystery worshippers leave donations in the plate, just attending a service, which would feed me for a week.)
What on earth or in heaven does the donation made by someone else (of means unknown to you) have to do with what you should be doing?
And what sort of passive-agressive shit is it that makes you point out that what they donated would feed you for a week?
If you simply want to enter a church to pray, then do so and make it clear to any officials at a Very Public Church that that is your only intention.
In case you don't understand, part of this will be going to a particular place, praying, and then leaving the church.
If you wish to pray a bit and then spend the rest of the day hanging out in the lovely public gardens while doing your student work, you are barely one rung above the tourists. So cough up something (figure out the one day fee spread over one month or week and pay that) and stop complaining.
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Is it possible for you to arrive for the daily office or the Holy Eucharist and then just stay a bit longer?
[Tangent] I'm surprised these large churches such as St. Paul's don't have large endowment funds that pay for the upkeep and staffing. If the Diocese of London (or whoever is in control) suddenly announced it was closing down St. Paul's due to expensive upkeep and instead opening a Cathedral Center, millions of pounds would drift in from interested parties who want to save St. Paul's. [/Tangent]
[ 08. August 2007, 03:17: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Newman's Own,
I understand, also having no money. Some friends went to London back in 05 and having no money either, but the security people just waved them through (they were habited).
AFAIK, houses of worship don't really charge, they just have SUGGESTED fees. Unless they have changed recently their policies.
Drop in what you can. Not having enough money is embarrassing when most of the people you know do have enough. Be honest and say you don't have enough money if they get huffy. You don't have to be ashamed about it. It's a simple truth. But if one day you do have, go ahead and pay the three pounds fifty or whatever and fast for lunch! But if that is your only money for the whole day or two, just be honest. Or maybe go to a park instead. I don't think they'd kick anybody out wasn't a drunk or crack-head.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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cor ad cor loquitur
Shipmate
# 11816
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Posted
My impression is that the voluntary schemes in many Anglican cathedrals completely failed to cover the costs of upkeep, security and other facilities to support the thousands of tourists who visit every day.
So the language you see at places like St Paul's, Canterbury Cathedral and Westminster Abbey is not of donations or voluntary contributions but of charging admission fees and selling tickets (you can even buy them online in some cases). There was a bit of a fuss when this started, but it now seems to have been broadly accepted in the UK. Tickets in London are normally on the order of GBP 10.
My guess is that if you say that you've come to pray, they will let you in, whether or not a service is in progress. But if you do that, then to me it seems right to leave after your worship, not to use the place as a study area without paying something.
Of course you could always go to the local RC cathedral. They don't sell tickets or charge admission fees...
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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)
Posts: 1332 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Wonder how the RCs pay for the upkeep of their buildings? Why doesn't the British goverment help with the upkeep? They belong to the nation, don't they?
I'd get really nervous if they started having money changers. That would be cool in a way. "What do you do?" "I'm a money changer in the Temple Church." Hmmm....
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
When I'm reviewing notes and preparing essays,...
You're reviewing notes and preparing essays? And that makes you superior to the tourists in some way?
If you wish to pray a bit and then spend the rest of the day hanging out in the lovely public gardens while doing your student work, you are barely one rung above the tourists. So cough up something (figure out the one day fee spread over one month or week and pay that) and stop complaining.
Is this ecclesiantics or Hell?? Whoa! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
The RC churches in the UK that I have visited do have a box by the door and what you drop in is up to you. I am told it costs the ArchDiocese of Westminster no less than 3000 pounds a day to keep the old barn open and considering the number of times I've nicked in there for Mass or for sung Vespers or just for a sit, then a couple of pounds is a fair thing.
Mind you, I was somewhat peeved back in 1999 when I realised that it was 5 pounds to get in to either St Paul's or Westminster Abbey, unless you were there for a service. So I went to both places for Evensong.
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
What do other Ship mates suggest I (or others in a comparable situation) do? (I hesitated to mention it here, though it seemed the right place, after, on a thread a few months ago, I learnt that some mystery worshippers leave donations in the plate, just attending a service, which would feed me for a week.)
In Ely diocese, we have a scheme where anyone on the electoral roll of a parish in the diocese can apply at the end of each (calendar) year for a pass to allow free entry to the cathedral for the next (calendar) year.
Unfortunately, due to some sort of administrative cockup, the passes for 2007 only arrived at our church in June!
In the absence of such a scheme where you are, simply tell the person on the desk you are here to pray. I can't imagine they won't let you in for nothing. And you can always leave a small donation if you feel moved to.
And don't judge yourself by others' standards. Or others by yours. Leave what you can, if you can, and remember the widow's mite.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
A number of cathedrals - certainly including St Paul's - have a chapel set aside for prayer which it is possible to enter without paying. Canterbury is the 'worst', in my experience, for entrance charges - you can't even get in the close without paying (unless you're going to a service). They're not limited to Anglican cathedrals either; when I visited the Orthodox cathedral in Nice there was an entrance charge.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
When I visited St. Denis in Paris in '04, we were free to see the nave and say our prayers, but had to pay 5 Euro to see the monuments and tombs inside. No such thing happened in Sacre Coeur or Notre Dame, though.
Down here, one can visit the Manila Cathedral free of charge (but there's nothing to look at, despite being the seat of the first see of the land), while San Agustín is a museum and requires one to pay entrance fees. Then again, I don't recall seeing anyone going to San Agustín's to pray.
[ 08. August 2007, 07:50: Message edited by: Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known ]
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I am always sorry that one has to pay to get into churches,such as York Minster or St Paul's Cathedral.Yet I understand the demands made on the fabric and its upkeep by the huge numbers who come in the door each day.
York minster is open free at time of services. If I am in york with tour groups I will usually try to go to Evensong in the Minster but during that time one can also wander at will around the nave,listening to the music on the other side of the choir screen.If I am in the york area with tourists during the day then I would normally take them instead to the absolutely beautiful Ripon Cathedral,- in many ways,at least on a oersonal level, much more devotional than York.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
The RC churches in the UK that I have visited do have a box by the door and what you drop in is up to you. I am told it costs the ArchDiocese of Westminster no less than 3000 pounds a day to keep the old barn open and considering the number of times I've nicked in there for Mass or for sung Vespers or just for a sit, then a couple of pounds is a fair thing.
....
m
Three thousand per diem=1.1 million per annum; in my currency, it will be close to a hundred million Philippine pesos.
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Wonder how the RCs pay for the upkeep of their buildings?
It's nowhere near as much of a problem, because the C of E got all the pre-Reformation ones.
quote:
Why doesn't the British goverment help with the upkeep? They belong to the nation, don't they?
Technically, they probably belong to the Church Commissioners.
But yes, in France (or pretty much anywhere else), the government would help pay for maintenance of such historic buildings.
ETA - I've never had a problem getting into cathedrals at times of services without being forced to pay. Only a very few require you to pay anyway, and they usually have plenty of times when they let people in free.
[ 08. August 2007, 08:30: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Canterbury is the 'worst', in my experience, for entrance charges - you can't even get in the close without paying (unless you're going to a service).
A friend of mine (a priest) had been working abroad for a number of years and on his return to Britain decided to visit Canterbury.
He arrived at the Cathedral gate, wearing his clerical shirt to be told he'd have to pay to get in. When he pointed out he wanted to go in to pray, the response was "You'll have to come back after six to do that".
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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radagasty
Shipmate
# 11628
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Technically, they probably belong to the Church Commissioners.
But yes, in France (or pretty much anywhere else), the government would help pay for maintenance of such historic buildings.
Does the British government not help at all with the upkeep? After all, the CofE is the established church, and churches like Westminster Abbey are host to state ceremonies, e.g., the coronation of a monarch.
Posts: 78 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Westminster Abbey may be in a different situation being a Royal Peculiar, but normal CofE churches and cathedrals get nothing from the government towards maintenance AIUI.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Except regulations making it more expensive and difficult.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The parishes of the Church of England have to raise enough money to pay their Parish Share* to the Diocese and the upkeep of their historic buildings. Most churches are permanently fundraising to keep the roof on/make sure the electrics are safe/conserve the stone/brickwork/make sure the organ works.
*The Parish Share is the amount calculated by the Diocese to fund the Diocese and the priests in charge (pensions, salaries, housing), plus in some areas a bit to subsidise some of the struggling parishes - it depends on the Diocese.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Ely let those who are on their selection conferences at the retreat house over the road in for free. They even let me store my bags behind the desk whilst I looked round.
When I first went there ... I was going to say 'a few years ago' but I now realise it was nearer 'nine years ago', I was in an arsey mood and told them that I hugely resented having to pay to pray. They told me that there was a side-chapel reserved for prayer by the entrance but I pointed out that I didn't want to pray there. Eventually, we agreed that as long as my donation was roughly the same as the admission charge, I could go in for free.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Canterbury is the 'worst', in my experience, for entrance charges - you can't even get in the close without paying (unless you're going to a service).
A friend of mine (a priest) had been working abroad for a number of years and on his return to Britain decided to visit Canterbury.
He arrived at the Cathedral gate, wearing his clerical shirt to be told he'd have to pay to get in. When he pointed out he wanted to go in to pray, the response was "You'll have to come back after six to do that".
Even more than the charges, I resent the 'sheep and goats' implications behind all this. The last time I visited Canterbury we were forced to follow a 'tourist itinerary' along roped walkways. Hence any possibility that a mere tourist would become a devout pilgrim, or even have a glimpse of a pilgrim moment, was virtually ruled out. And the idea of having special chapels, or special times, for prayer carries the implication that prayer is not what the building exists for most of the time.
But although the large collection boxes can sometimes be intimidating, most cathedrals still don't have turnstiles and formal admission fees. If you're in London, why bother with St Paul's (unfriendly even without turnstiles) when you can nip over London Bridge to welcoming Southwark?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Which ones actually do have admissions charges?
London, Canterbury, Ely have been mentioned here.
I've heard that Chester have scrapped theirs (which was only part time anyway); Liverpool, Lichfield and Durham didn't have them last time I visited.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
I was deeply upset when I discovered that Yorkminster was going over to paid entrance. Before then when I had visited I had still made a donation, as is my want, but less than the fiver they were requesting. I prefer the attitude at other Cathedrals where there are bits, the crypt say, a special chapel(like the Thistle Chapel in St Giles, Ed.) where one has to pay, but you can get part of the experience for free.
Nonetheless last time I was in York I paid to go in, and it was worth it. I became fair less antagonistic to such charges when I realised how rarely and how little tourists donated.
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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...
Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
Of course you could always go to the local RC cathedral. They don't sell tickets or charge admission fees...
Nor does Southwark cathedral just the other side of the river. Or (as far as I know) those of the ancient City churches that are open.
Or, if looking for an Anglican shrine to pray or read in, neither do places like St Martin in the Fields, or All Saints Margaret Street, or All Souls Langham Place or Holy Trinity Brompton. London caters for all megachurchmanships.
Even though I live in London I've never been into St. Paul's. I nearly did once, but the entrance charge put me off. I know they would have let me in if I'd insisted, but that looks like pompously drawing attention to oneself, which is a bad start if you really do intend to pray.
[ 08. August 2007, 11:22: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Which ones actually do have admissions charges?
London*, Canterbury, Ely have been mentioned here.
I've heard that Chester have scrapped theirs (which was only part time anyway); Liverpool, Lichfield and Durham didn't have them last time I visited.
* Which of the 4 Cathedrals in London would that one be Custard? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) (As far as I'm aware only one of them charges. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Why doesn't the British goverment help with the upkeep? They belong to the nation, don't they?
Technically, they probably belong to the Church Commissioners.
I don't think so. They will be corporately "owned" in something like the same odd mediaeval way that parish curches are. Presumably collegiately by the Chapter rather than by a single incumbent. Though many (most?) of them are parish churches as well.
English parish churches are in a sense public property but they are not government property.
My guess is (I bet there will be lawyers along to tell the facts soon) that an English cathedral is owned by a corporation whose members are the Dean and Chapter but that they have no legal right to make any significant changes to the building or its worship without permission from the diocese (perhaps via Achdeacons) and (if it is a parish church) from the equivalent of a PCC. But I'm not really sure.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Petrified
Ship’s ballast
# 10667
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Posted
St Paul's and Westminster did last time I went, as has been said St Paul's used to have a chapel for prayer through the side door but I thought it had been closed.(maybe that was just during the renovations)
In Europe (the ones I have been to)you only pay to get into special bits. Bruges (St Mary's I think) was really strange, you could see the Michelangelo (the only one outside Italy) for nothing but paid to see the tomb of Charles the Bold.
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At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock.
SoF a "prick against Bigotterie"
Posts: 540 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Which of the 4 Cathedrals in London would that one be Custard?
Only four?
Now I'm wondering which of the three Orthodox cathedrals you are counting ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Real Ale Methodist:
Nonetheless last time I was in York I paid to go in, and it was worth it. I became fair less antagonistic to such charges when I realised how rarely and how little tourists donated.
I remember friends who went to Canterbury being semi persuaded at least by the charges by a leaflet that explained that before the charges the average donation per visitor was 17p! I dislike the idea of charging, but if that's the level of generosity, then I can see why Cathedrals feel the need to do it.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I have a fond memory of visiting Notre-Dame Basilica in Montreal with my middle school class. It remains the loveliest church I have ever seen, and I have since been to St. Paul's Cathedral, London (the real one, not Ontario ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ). Being a good RC child at the time, I was chagrined at the way my young colleagues trampled through the pews on the tour, and ensured that I was always on the end of the pew, so that I could enforce a slowdown by laboriously genuflecting on the way in and out of every pew we entered.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Which ones actually do have admissions charges?
London, Canterbury, Ely have been mentioned here.
I've heard that Chester have scrapped theirs (which was only part time anyway); Liverpool, Lichfield and Durham didn't have them last time I visited.
Winchester does if IIRC. Others seem to make sections of the church free to all, but charge extra for things like the Crypt etc. It can seem pricey, but it's probably less expensive than the entrance charges at a National Trust property or similar.
The ones that seem to charge are the ones that are on the Tourist Track. (Which explains why Southwark and some of the others are free )
All the catherdrals I've visited don't charge for entrance at services times - but they do try and keep the tourists away from the area where the service is taking place.
The basic rule of thumb seems to be that people who come outside service times aren't there to worship, they're here to see the lovely historical buildings and enjoy the atmosphere. That makes them a source of potential income. In some ways, that seems fair enough. Voluntary donations don't seem to work – 17p wouldn’t even buy you a chocolate bar! The money to keep the buildings maintained and staffed needs to come from somewhere.
Tubbs
PS Newman’s Own, the standard charge seems to be about £10 or less. If you can really feed yourself for a week on that, I'm not sure whether to be either impressed or worried about the quality of your diet ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
[ 08. August 2007, 12:35: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Which ones actually do have admissions charges?
London*, Canterbury, Ely have been mentioned here.
I've heard that Chester have scrapped theirs (which was only part time anyway); Liverpool, Lichfield and Durham didn't have them last time I visited.
* Which of the 4 Cathedrals in London would that one be Custard? (As far as I'm aware only one of them charges. )
The one that belongs to the Diocese of London, perhaps?
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I nearly did once, but the entrance charge put me off. I know they would have let me in if I'd insisted, but that looks like pompously drawing attention to oneself, which is a bad start if you really do intend to pray.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I was young and naive. And arsey. (And yes, before anyone says it, some things never change!)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
quote:
Originally posted by Newman's Own:
When I'm reviewing notes and preparing essays,...
You're reviewing notes and preparing essays? And that makes you superior to the tourists in some way?
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... I love to pray in such churches, then sit in the close or garden.
And of course not a single one of the tourists feels the same way or is looking for the same experience.
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I find it very embarrassing to tell those at the door,...
If you're legitimately an impoverished devout, why would you be embarrassed?
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...the more because I indeed am aware of the large costs associated with maintaining buildings.
Once again, if you are legitimately an impoverished devout, your prayers will make up for your lack of money. Or simply give what you can (25 cents is more than nothing), forget about it and move on.
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What do other Ship mates suggest I (or others in a comparable situation) do?
I've given my suggestions.
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(I hesitated to mention it here, though it seemed the right place, after, on a thread a few months ago, I learnt that some mystery worshippers leave donations in the plate, just attending a service, which would feed me for a week.)
What on earth or in heaven does the donation made by someone else (of means unknown to you) have to do with what you should be doing?
And what sort of passive-agressive shit is it that makes you point out that what they donated would feed you for a week?
If you simply want to enter a church to pray, then do so and make it clear to any officials at a Very Public Church that that is your only intention.
In case you don't understand, part of this will be going to a particular place, praying, and then leaving the church.
If you wish to pray a bit and then spend the rest of the day hanging out in the lovely public gardens while doing your student work, you are barely one rung above the tourists. So cough up something (figure out the one day fee spread over one month or week and pay that) and stop complaining.
I see everyone else is ignoring this less-than gracious series of comments, so I probably should do the same, but what the heck.
At the level of fact, of which you seem ignorant, the large turnstiles and tellers' cages at the doors of many English cathedral make it literally impossible to enter for any purpose, such as prayer, except in the 10-15 minutes before a service or without a pass from someone in authority. The former practice of allowing a chapel near the doors to be used for prayer out of service time seems to have fallen out of use in many of these places.
Simply put, the poor and the indigent and those on tight budgets or without ready cash to the tune of $5-10 (I translate for your benefit) can whistle for any chance to pray in some English cathedrals.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I see everyone else is ignoring this less-than gracious series of comments, so I probably should do the same, but what the heck.
We're English; we're ignoring the distasteful, which I fear jennifer's comments really were.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
The question is: who's job is it to tell the Hosts to take it to Hell? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
She was posting as a shipmate so anyone's. I doubt NO would, but who knows? To be fair to jlg, she's not around yet so she may well apologise on reflection when she gets 'in'.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
IIRC Salisbury also makes a charge.
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Canterbury is the 'worst', in my experience, for entrance charges - you can't even get in the close without paying (unless you're going to a service).
I too was shocked when I took the Smudgelets to visit Canterbury Cathedral on our way home from France last week. Having been a student at Canterbury many moons ago, I was keen to show them one place where I had spent a lot of my time.
We paid to go in, despite it being something I quite resent being forced to do, as it had been the prime reason for us going to Canterbury. It was put as paying to get into the precinct, rather than into the Cathedral (not sure how one would do the latter without doing the former, mind) and cost us nearly twenty pounds which really hurt the pocket at that stage. Apparently we could have gone in for a service for free, but my boys are too young (or rather, too teenaged) to sit through evensong on the last day of their holidays and benefitted more from simply being in a church atmosphere, saying a prayer as part of their touristy look around the church, talking about the history of people worshipping God and different ways of expressing it.
But what really stung was that, with no warning, we discovered that a large part of the cathedral was closed to visitors due to special events taking place. It seems to me as though they want to have their cake and eat it. If they are running it like a commercial venture and charging tourists the price of other tourist attractions, then they should be reducing the entrance fee when parts of the Cathedral are out of bounds. I came away feeling doubly robbed - first by the high entrance fee and then by the poor value for money.
A difficult dilemma, balancing the cost of maintenance against the importance of welcoming people into God's house. I don't think Canterbury (of all places!) have got the balance quite right.
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
I'm another fortunate who has an Ely pass.
Prior to this though I used to go and pray in the "free" side chapel... no good if you want to go and pray before the Blessed Sacrament though. Or go in before 9, after 5pm or on a Sunday...
I have heard tell they'll let you in free with a dog collar...
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
A difficult dilemma, balancing the cost of maintenance against the importance of welcoming people into God's house. I don't think Canterbury (of all places!) have got the balance quite right.
I come from Canterbury and there's definitely a love-hate relationship between the Cathedral and local residents. With the balance landing on the hate side. There's a strong feeling in town that the Cathedral just operates like a big commercial enterprise - as a major landlord in the city it charges as much as it can in rent (ostensibly because they have a duty to maxmimise their revenues, but with the result being that chain shops, bars, cafes and restaurants dominate over the little local independents - hence people take a very negative view of the church being something that's only about money and not about people and communities)
As you say, they haven't got it quite right.
Mind you - nothing's new - just reach Barchester Chronicles!
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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen
Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?
Posts: 2022 | From: the smallest town in England | Registered: Sep 2003
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Lou Poulain
Shipmate
# 1587
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Posted
I am in sympathy with N.O.'s comments. Reading this thread brought up a number of thoughts. We were in London and York last September, and paid to tour Westminster Abbey, St. Paul's and Yorkminster. I did not really mind, as we were there as tourists. I would not have found any of the churches to be conducive to prayer, with so many people wandering around, not so quietly. However, the day we visited St. Paul's we were walking up from Blackfriars Bridge and came across St. Mary le Bow, which was open. What a gem of a little church! In the months since our visit to England, St. Mary has come up in many more conversations than St. Paul's.
We visited Yorkminster and loved it. We came back the next Sunday morning and experienced the building as a house of worship, and that was the experience I will always remember when I think of the minster.
Posts: 526 | From: Sunnyvale CA USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
In Britain we are lucky that most national art galleries and museums are free of entrance charges. This is as it should be, because if people are to gain real benefit from art it's by going regularly, and being able to sit in front of the same painting or whatever, over and over again. If you had to pay £5 or £10 each time it would turn art into a commodity (OK, it probably already is, but it doesn't have to be made worse).
In the same way, a cathedral might make an impression on you the first time you visit. But it takes time for the subtleties to work their magic on you, and maybe for the building's spiritual power to become apparent. So an admission charge is an admission (pun deliberate) that a cathedral is just a big tourist attraction. In which case why not install Alton Towers style thrill-rides etc and make the most of it? Few people are going to pay Alton Towers or even National Trust type charges (especially for a whole family) more than once a lifetime or at most once a year.
If the Deans and Chapters really are committed to mission and evangelism, this seems a daft way to go about it. But museums can do without charging because of Government subsidies. Why isn't the church lobbying the Government to have its cathedrals similarly subsidised?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I do sympathize with the Cathedrals' difficulties. The ancient endowments which financed them have often gone or are unequal to modern costs, and donations from visitors come nowhere near the cost - in some cases it would be cheaper to close the doors outside service times than to carry the costs of staffing the building for visitors. Many parish churches in tourist areas find themselves in similar situations. In the end, though, however 'financially necessary' it may be, charging still seems wrong to me.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If the Deans and Chapters really are committed to mission and evangelism, this seems a daft way to go about it. But museums can do without charging because of Government subsidies. Why isn't the church lobbying the Government to have its cathedrals similarly subsidised?
Basically, it is - the trouble is the Government has seen what the costs are.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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cor ad cor loquitur
Shipmate
# 11816
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Simply put, the poor and the indigent and those on tight budgets or without ready cash to the tune of $5-10 (I translate for your benefit) can whistle for any chance to pray in some English cathedrals.
At some London cathedrals it's more like $20 at current exchange rates: St Paul's "tickets" cost £9.50, Westminster Abbey £10. More if you want optional extras. It's a worthy cause and good value, in my view, but not cheap.
As noted above, most of these RC cathedrals seem to date from the mid-19th century -- funny that! -- and their upkeep is no doubt less expensive.
RC churches and cathedrals also give you plenty of opportunities to lighten your wallet. On Sunday at my parish there is a newspaper stand, votive candles to pay for, a bookstore, the main offertory, often a retiring collection, a donation basket at the coffee hour, and another little "shop" at the coffee hour selling books, gifts, etc. Not to mention the folks who stand outside the church soliciting alms. No ticket sales, but plenty of opportunities to give.
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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)
Posts: 1332 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
More countries than the Good Ole U. S. of A. denominate their currencies in dollars.
So, £20 is approximately $21 in the US and Canada, but about $23.50 in Australia and $26.50 in NZ.
I'm a student. Tariffs like that would keep me out.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The pound is almost double the dollar, so £20 would be closer to $40 US.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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