|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: Papal Audience
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
Mr & Mrs Obama today met the Pope. I've probably aksed this before -- what's the deal with the widow's weeds (which Mrs Obama carries very well I might add).
Apparently this applies to Vatican visits but not Papal visits elsewhere.
Is it Court Protocol or a religious thing?
[ 29. August 2009, 11:21: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
I seem to recall that when Her Majesty met the Pope there was some mention of her not being Catholic being the reason for the attire. Beyond that, I don't know.
--------------------
If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
A purple cassock, I assume. I can't see her dressing any differently than ++Rowan or any other Anglican bishop on account of her sex. When asked by a journalist from the New York Times Sunday Magazine, she said that meeting Pope Benedict would be 'really interesting'. I'm not sure in what sense she meant that, but I agree that any papal meeting with a female bishop would, indeed, be very interesting.
--------------------
'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
I seem to recall that when Her Majesty met the Pope there was some mention of her not being Catholic being the reason for the attire. Beyond that, I don't know.
Can't be that, as Spanish Infanta got her doily out also.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I wonder if it is to show they are NAFF in the technical sense, and thus avoid the appearance of scandal - being a woman meeting with the pontiff privately. (Possibly dating from the days when the papacy was occasionally inherited.)
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
|
Posted
Googling "what to wear to meet the pope" turns up a USA Today piece which says it's traditional, at least as of 1913. Tradition for men appears to have updated itself to no longer require evening dress with white cravat, what's up with that? Nary a peep on why this is the tradition, for men or women. So much for my crack investigative skills [sic].
I do like how the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia specifies that the veil is to be worn on the head.
--------------------
Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
|
Posted
As I remember, all women must wear veils and that kit, but only Catholic queens and the wives of Catholic sovereigns are granted the right to wear white, known as the privilège du blanc, at the Vatican. Currently, the privilège extends to the queens of Spain and Belgium, in addition to the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. All others ladies must wear black on such visits.
There have been some slip-ups (if you want to call them that) to this protocol. Cherie Blair (wife of then-British PM Tony Blair) wore white at an audience a few years back. I think the current queen of Jordan wore something that was whitish-grey, and maybe also the empress of Japan did as well.
Posts: 139 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
Certainly, I recall that when HMQ meets the Sovereign Pontiff in the Vatican she wear black.
Wives (non-Catholic) of Heads of State do so as well. Perhaps Mme Blair thought that, as a Catholic, she should not wear black. I am sure that the Pope would have been too polite to comment.
Perhaps when Mr Harper of Canada meets (met with) the Pontiff, he wore sackcloth and ashes. As posters in another thread would seem to want to to do ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
Re the white: girls under the age of 12 also wear wear the white.
My parents were granted an audience with Paul V1 when the old man was posted to Rome in the 1970s, and form the photos i see that Dad wore a dark suit and Mum the full catastrophe ( the floor-length mantilla was borrowed). The 3 of us were in Rome at Christmas the same year and we were able to attend midnight Mass at St Peter's Basilica. We were all togged up in long black (mainly because it was so bloody cold) but we did note that the Ambassadors to the Holy See ( the Aussie Ambassador at that time had a dual posting in Vienna) and their wimminfolk did the full bit-the men in white tie tails and decorations and the ladies swathed in a way seldom seen these days outside Tehran.
m
--------------------
quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
A purple cassock, I assume.
No, body armour, and carrying some kind of automatic weapon.
It's the only way she'd be able to fight her way in!
I don't imagine an invitation will be forthcoming in the terribly near future.
--------------------
Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
|
Posted
Unless he wants to borrow those PB vestments!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
Only if the audience takes place on Halloween.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
Unless he wants to borrow those PB vestments!
Why would he want to do that when he has such lovely ones of his own?
--------------------
Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
On the tangent of terrible vestments, whenever liturgical artists (or whatever you call them) wax melodic with the high flown symbolism their vestments, I know we're in trouble.
*scrunches up face* "Oi think moi work harkens back to the solitude of the temptation in the desert and Jesus calling on the wi'ttle children. It puts in moind the feminimity of the Deity...."
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
A purple cassock, I assume.
No, body armour, and carrying some kind of automatic weapon.
It's the only way she'd be able to fight her way in!
I don't imagine an invitation will be forthcoming in the terribly near future.
What a delightful fantasy! I can just imagine ++Katherine in SAS kit, storming the Vatican, throwing open the doors of Pope Benny's office and showing them all who's boss.
[ 11. July 2009, 15:54: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
What a delightful fantasy! I can just imagine ++Katherine in SAS kit, storming the Vatican, throwing open the doors of Pope Benny's office and showing them all who's boss.
I am thinking something along the lines of a girl version of The Bishop.
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
On the tangent of terrible vestments, whenever liturgical artists (or whatever you call them) wax melodic with the high flown symbolism their vestments, I know we're in trouble.
*scrunches up face* "Oi think moi work harkens back to the solitude of the temptation in the desert and Jesus calling on the wi'ttle children. It puts in moind the feminimity of the Deity...."
Zach
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
And I notice you've given said artiste an Essex accent. Yet I reckon that our PB's vestments were made in America ("Look for the union label...it says we're able to make it in the USA").
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
Unless he wants to borrow those PB vestments!
Why would he want to do that when he has such lovely ones of his own?
I can't say that I'm a huge fan of ++KJS's taste in vestments, but +++JPII had some so bad as to make both hers and the ones in that photo look like classic and elegant designs. Just picture these words in your mind: 1970s, polychromatic, shiny artificial fibers, disco.
P.S. There can be no doubt about who would win a no-hold barred fight between the Most Rev'd Katherine Katharine Jefferts Schori and His Holiness Benedict XVI. Even if she weren't several decades younger than he, she would still win. She is a most formidable primate.
[ 11. July 2009, 17:10: Message edited by: Patrick the less saintly ]
--------------------
'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
Indeed!
My Lord, old John XXIII was a roly-poly old geezer, wasn't he?
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
But leave it to Jackie Kennedy to look absolutely fabulous!
Indeed! Elizabeth II cut a wonderful figure as well. Ah, those were the days. . .
One questions the wisdom of being all dressed up to meet an old guy in bathrobe and slippers.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oremus
Shipmate
# 13853
|
Posted
Or indeed his boss who whilst on earth probally nothing more elaborate than an old tunic and a pair of sandals!
Posts: 221 | From: Our Lady's Dowry (Catford Branch) | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Indeed!
My Lord, old John XXIII was a roly-poly old geezer, wasn't he?
True enough - hence the fact that he gave his first audience with a makeshift cassock as all the ones Gammerelli's had provided weren't quite equal to teh task of housing him!
Does anyone have any pictures of the queens of Spain or Belgium exercising their privileges?
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oremus:
Or indeed his boss who whilst on earth probally nothing more elaborate than an old tunic and a pair of sandals!
But not anymore, we trust!
--------------------
"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Dowager Queen Fabiola of Belgium at a Papal Mass....
Is it just me, or does it seem like Her Majesty is a tad unfamiliar with her missalette?
[ 12. July 2009, 14:47: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Dowager Queen Fabiola of Belgium at a Papal Mass....
Is it just me, or does it seem like Her Majesty is a tad unfamiliar with her missalette?
It looks to me like she's got a bodice-ripper type book hidden in its cover. She's just too interested for it to be a missalette.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
Not that particular lady; she and her late husband Baudouin were THE pious royal couple. She's getting on a bit and might need to peer through the specs.
The rest of the congo don't appear to be terribly interested...
m
--------------------
quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
One questions the wisdom of being all dressed up to meet an old guy in bathrobe and slippers.
My mam taught me it's important to show respect to your elders, and that includes dressing up before you go meet them, even if they're-- you know.
[ 12. July 2009, 23:54: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
One questions the wisdom of being all dressed up to meet an old guy in bathrobe and slippers.
My mam taught me it's important to show respect to your elders, and that includes dressing up before you go meet them, even if they're-- you know.
Aw, come on Spiff. You just want a chance to wear a mantilla without looking insane. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
One questions the wisdom of being all dressed up to meet an old guy in bathrobe and slippers.
My mam taught me it's important to show respect to your elders, and that includes dressing up before you go meet them, even if they're-- you know.
Aw, come on Spiff. You just want a chance to wear a mantilla without looking insane.
Who doesn't? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 139 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Aw, come on Spiff. You just want a chance to wear a mantilla without looking insane.
Who doesn't?
![[Frown]](frown.gif) My grandmother wore a mantilla everyday. I'm just sayin'.
--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
Ditto; both my daily-communicant grans wore black mantillas to Mass until well into the 80s. Me Mum wore one for solemn and awfuls (such as Dad's requiem in 1987) mainly because the old man liked them ( and provided them for both his mother and his mother-in-law). Dad's mother lived in country Victoria for many years and was the only woman in Mount Beauty who wore such headgear in church; it was her excuse to throw all her hats on a bonfire in the back yard, aided and abetted by my aunt. Mantillas were uncommon in pre-V2 Oz; most women and girls wore hats to Mass; veils and mantillas were considered to be somewhat woggish. It wasn't until the mid-70s that Catholic women and girls got rid of the headgear.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Ditto; both my daily-communicant grans wore black mantillas to Mass until well into the 80s.
As did my one RC gran.
[ 13. July 2009, 02:22: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
That doesn't surprise me, as it seems that the fashion for mantillas for non-Italians/Spaniards/Latinos caught on early in the USA . Dad must have seen them for the first time when he was posted to NYC in 1957.
m
--------------------
quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
|
Posted
Oh, my grandma didn't just wear a mantilla for mass. She wore it everywhere everyday even around the house. My grandma was from a place and generation where shawls were everday clothing. In the ancestral village some women wore the rebozo . Other women, like my grandma, wore the mantilla.
--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
That doesn't surprise me, as it seems that the fashion for mantillas for non-Italians/Spaniards/Latinos caught on early in the USA . Dad must have seen them for the first time when he was posted to NYC in 1957.
m
Who said she was non-Italian/Spaniard/Latino?
Her practice probably originated in the old country.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
Out of curiosity, what would an American, non-Catholic woman, wear if invited to be present at a large Papal Mass? Say she were an ambassador or something or even, uh, the Secretary of State? Black+black mantilla?
Tangent: Does Hilary even have a black pant suit let alone dress? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
At a Mass( as opposed to an audience) there would be no strict regulations.
There were various political heavies (male and female) who attended the various Papal Masses here in Sinny during the WYD shindig last year and they were in "Sunday best"the only head coverings in sight were being worn by the (mostly from overseas) trad female religious who also attended.
At St Peter' s Basilica such eminent ladies would be expected to observe the below-knee length skirt/sleeves to the elbow/head covering rule that is still enforced for any female who puts her nose around the door there, whether for mass or not.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
Those pics have convinced me ( despite the exception made for well-born ladies), that white is definitely only for virgins-and young ones at that.
Very well-bred mutton dressed up as lamb, I'm afraid, and to hell with protocol.
m
--------------------
quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
Well yes, it is all a bit Miss Haversham.
But still interesting...
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
When did the rule begin? Until the railway age, there can have been very few royal ladies who made the journey to Rome; it would have been very difficult for most of the Italians, let alone the Portuguese. Did the rule perhaps extend to masses celebrated by papal legates/nuncios, as on such formal occasions being he who had sent them?
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Those pics have convinced me ( despite the exception made for well-born ladies), that white is definitely only for virgins-and young ones at that.
Very well-bred mutton dressed up as lamb, I'm afraid, and to hell with protocol.
m
Irrespective of the respect with which one may view the Holy See and the Successor of Peter, the idea of court dress for zee laydeez and the pope granting "audiences" is laughably and appallingly archaic. The pope can't at once hold himself out as a head of state and as a bishop who is servant of the servants of God, and then grant "audiences" like some monarch with a court that includes Ladies appearing in fancy dress.
At the end of the day, the whole pretence is just a little, well...
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) -making.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
