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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: What do we do with the cursing psalms?
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
This is inspired by Psyduck's thread and this from Barny.
What on earth do you do with a Psalm like 137 ? Except, of course, sing the opening words in Boney M fashion (there's just not enough tie-dye in music anymore, don't you agree?)
But seriously, its particularly the last verse, the curse, that is troubling. I don't have in front of me the references for the other cursing Psalms and I don't remember which ones they are ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) , but if someone else can provide the info that would be great.
Getting back to Psalm 137, I am not happy to just pretend it doesn't exist. FWIW, the way I treat the song is as the Psalmist expressing and releasing anger to God. He/she was in such agony of grief and anger that he/she really did want to murder the children of his/her oppressors. And it is entirely appropriate to feel anger of this kind - feelings are morally neutral. It is best to release this kind of anger to God, just let it go, rather than acting on it. God can take it, and is not shocked by it.
That's just my humble view, what do others think?
[ 30. October 2009, 12:14: Message edited by: Moo ]
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Well, first of all, it helps to dispense with the idea that they were dropped from the mind of God directly into the heads of the Psalmists, who passively transferred them to text. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think they serve a purpose for us in demonstrating what it looks like to "get real" before God...to be completely transparent and to communicate exactly what we're thinking and feeling to God, even if it's stuff like wishing we could pulverize our enemies' children against the rocks. God doesn't want our pious personas -- God wants all of us.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I agree with Dark Knight and LutheranChik that the honesty shown in verses like this is good. If we don't admit our extreme negative feelings, God can't help us transform them.
C. S. Lewis has suggested another use for these verses. They show us what extreme injustice does to people. We need to remember that when we are tempted to treat others unfairly.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
It helps if we think of Babylon, not as a real place with actual people, but simply as evil incarnate. It is often dealt with this way in Scripture.
It is not just big evils that need to be gotten rid of, but even small ones.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I find it helpful to let the cursing psalms remind me of the sometimes very thin line between religious zeal and destructive fanaticism.
We see it all around us (in all religions but especially Christianity and Islam) - what starts as religious zeal and healthy passion for one's cause flips into deadly self-righteous hatred for "the enemy".
Psalm 137 is a wonderful example of this, because of the beautiful, yearning section at the opening. But after such poignant words, we suddenly switch to violent bitterness of a kind that could never represent God's will. I do not think that there is any legitimate way of interpreting these verses in an approving way. Surely we have to say "this is not God's way. This is what happens when we let our passion and pain overcome the light of Christ within us."
In addition, psalms like 137 help me to remember that the religious zealots who have tumbled into such violence are not usually complete monsters. They have a passion for their God which (properly directed and controlled) could be valuable and world-changing. They do not spend all their time pursuing a hate-filled agenda - there are times when they will seem quite normal and prefectly reasonable.
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All this applies to other parts of the Bible than the Psalms. The daily lectionary reading this morning was from Ezra 10 - all about how Ezra led those who had returned from exile to renounce their non-Jewish wives. I couldn't help feeling that what I was reading was all about "racial purity" and misdirected religious zealotry, rather than being a reflection of the loving, saving God. Was it really God's will that so many wives (and their children) were just rejected? And what did these poor women think about the God in whose name this was done?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Oreophagite
Shipmate
# 10534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It helps if we think of Babylon, not as a real place with actual people, but simply as evil incarnate. It is often dealt with this way in Scripture.
It is not just big evils that need to be gotten rid of, but even small ones.
Go, Freddy!
I think the term "Edomites" can also used metaphorically to depict "evil ones". The sin that is within us begets more sin within us. Those "children" (and their "parents") must be destroyed so that we can return to spiritual Jerusalem from our spiritual captivity in Babylon.
Well, maybe.
Posts: 247 | From: The Klipoth | Registered: Oct 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oreophagite:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It helps if we think of Babylon, not as a real place with actual people, but simply as evil incarnate. It is often dealt with this way in Scripture.
It is not just big evils that need to be gotten rid of, but even small ones.
Go, Freddy!
I think the term "Edomites" can also used metaphorically to depict "evil ones". The sin that is within us begets more sin within us. Those "children" (and their "parents") must be destroyed so that we can return to spiritual Jerusalem from our spiritual captivity in Babylon.
Well, maybe.
I think it is helpful that Edomites and Babylonians, not to mention Philistines and the inhabitants of Sodom, no longer exist. They can be metaphorically demonized to our hearts' content.
I think that we all know that this is the way that ancient, and modern, peoples have traditionally talked about their mortal enemies. They are seemingly unaware of the Christian edict that we are to love our enemies.
To my mind, therefore, it works to move all of this up a level, and have "Babylon" not be a real place but a fictional representative of evil itself.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
I think that there are a couple of things to take into consideration with this Psalm (and the imprecatory psalms in general).- The psalmist is praying for justice - that the evil that Babylon has executed on others is visited upon Babylon. The things that the psalmist is calling for are the evils that Babylon was guilty of.
- In verses 8-9 The psalmist may well be assuming that "the one" who visits this justice is God himself.
- The psalmist has personified the city as a mother - and the little ones would be the citizens of the city, not necessarily the actual children. (Compare Is 47 & Lam 1)
In terms of what do we do with them - then we can look at how the NT understands who the enemies of God's people are and how we should respond. It would seem to maintain the same attitude, but refocus who the true enemies are - not flesh and blood, but the spiritual forces of Sin, Suffering & Death.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
C. S. Lewis has suggested another use for these verses. They show us what extreme injustice does to people. We need to remember that when we are tempted to treat others unfairly.
Moo
That's very good. I had a feeling that Lewis had said something about this but couldn't recall it.
The notion sort of links with this, literally, bitter-sweet-bitter passage. An extraordinary outpouring of bitterness, hope, trust and desire for retribution which says a lot about the physical, emotional and spiritual state of the exile or outcast. I guess it "unpacks" stuff like the stinky verse in Psalm 137, to our advantage.
(For those who spot times, I'm up very early following a delicious but OTT Chinese takeaway meal with friends. A very self-inflicted affliction.)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
I couldn't get that link to work Barnabas.
Love these ideas shipmates. Just shows how much diversity and richness there is in the various traditions and approaches to Biblical interpretation.
I will say Anselm, I didn't buy your point 3 all that much. Yes, Babylon is personified, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to associate "little ones" with subjects especially. In the Lamentations passage you have cited, some different peoples are mentioned - the priests, the virgins. So it seems the writer could have used a more generic term, such as "children" or "subjects" here.
I think this is basically a shocking image of children being brutally killed, reflecting deep rage at injustice, as you said. Very troubling to encounter the shadow side of humanity in such a confronting manner. I love the fact that the compilers of the canon had the balls to leave it in.
[ 17. November 2005, 05:42: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Dark Knight
I linked to Lamentations Chapter 3 (the whole chapter) - its working for me. I should have said so in the link.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I will cite the comments of Augustin Arndt, SJ, on Psalm 136(137):9 from the 1911 Biblia Sacra (my translation from German):
"Compare Isaiah 13:16 et sqq.; Nahum 3:10. Thus Babylon is destroyed forever. It is the zeal for God which inspires the poet to such hard words. - Taken in the mystical sense, the psalm is the sighing of the pious, who still suffer from the temptation of desires, for the heavenly Sion."
What is "mystically" smashed to pieces here then are all those little temptations - ever ready to grown into full-blown sins - which we cannot seem to get rid of in this world. Only then is evil finally conquered.
[ 17. November 2005, 06:27: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
It would seem to maintain the same attitude, but refocus who the true enemies are - not flesh and blood, but the spiritual forces of Sin, Suffering & Death.
Even this seems wrong to me, as it is the attitude itself which is at fault - not whether it is directed at physical people or has been spiritualised.
It is one thing to say that such hatred is a natural, human reaction and to be honest enough to admit that you feel it. But it is quite something else to say that such attitudes are desirable or good.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
With Oscar. It's what I mean about scripture sometimes giving an example not to follow. Rationalising seems to me to be wrong and counter-productive. Moo's pointing to the individual and community suffering as a generator of attitudes seems to me to be a better, more understanding, way of assessing the text.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
It would seem to maintain the same attitude, but refocus who the true enemies are - not flesh and blood, but the spiritual forces of Sin, Suffering & Death.
Even this seems wrong to me, as it is the attitude itself which is at fault - not whether it is directed at physical people or has been spiritualised.
It is one thing to say that such hatred is a natural, human reaction and to be honest enough to admit that you feel it. But it is quite something else to say that such attitudes are desirable or good.
Are you saying it isn't right to "hate" evil?
Many of the Bible writers seem to have no problems with hating evil... quote:
Psalm 97:10
O you who love the Lord, hate evil!
quote:
Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
quote:
Isaiah 61:8
For I the Lord love justice; I hate robbery and wrong
quote:
Amos 5:15
Hate evil, and love good, and establish justice in the gate; it may be that the Lord, the God of hosts, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
Are you saying it isn't right to "hate" evil?
Many of the Bible writers seem to have no problems with hating evil...
Very nice quotes!
Another example might be Psyduck' thread title "This is in the Bible - but it stinks! IMHO..." ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
It falls right into the pattern of using hyperbole to express strong opposition to injustice. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Posted by Anselm:
Are you saying it isn't right to "hate" evil?
Now I am not following. Are you saying that the feelings expressed in the last verse of Ps 137 are moral ? A good thing?
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
Are you saying it isn't right to "hate" evil?
Many of the Bible writers seem to have no problems with hating evil...
Yes I am!
First of all, this thread (and the sister one on bits of the bible that stink) are all about how literally do we take the bible writers. Do we say "they use the word hate, so that's OK" or "they spoke from their pespective in ways that we - living in the light of Christ - would be better off avoiding". This isn't about downplaying the severity of sin or the purity of God's holiness - it is about what language is suitable. For the language we use affects how we behave. When we use the language of hatred, we are (I believe) more likely to give in to the actions of hatred.
Secondly, I have an increasing distrust of such statements as "I hate sin" because too often in the past hatred of sin tumbles into hatred for the one who sins. Hatred of sin has a grave danger of becoming self-rightous and judgemental. I guess I feel that hatred is never a good response for anything.
Let me give a personal example. I am passionate about injustice and oppression. When I see it, I yearn to help overturn it. But I can't say that I "hate" it. I feel that passion to change what is wrong should lead to positive emotions and attitudes - to increase desire for what is good and pure. To allow hatred to take a hold seems to me to be giving in to the ways of darkness and negativity.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Oscar, let's try Dictionary.com's definitions for hate (minus "hatred", which seems too much of a synonym to explain anything IMHO):
1. Oscar has "intense animosity or dislike" for injustice and oppression.
2. Injustice and oppression is "an object of detestation" to Oscar.
Any problems with that? If not, why can your "passion" not be called "hate"?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Posted by Anselm:
Are you saying it isn't right to "hate" evil?
Now I am not following. Are you saying that the feelings expressed in the last verse of Ps 137 are moral ? A good thing?
Well, the OP asked, What do we do with psalms like this. For me, there are two staged to this process.
I first try to understand what the psalm (or any other passage) meant to the original author and hearers.
Second, I seek to apply what that is saying to us now, given the different stage of salvation history that I may be in from the original audience. For OT passages in particular, this requires "drawing" the passage through the continuities and discontinuities between the Old and New Testament.
The psalmist is crying out for justice and salvation. The language is poetically graphic - he calls for his arm to lose it's skill (to play the harp?) and his tongue to stick to the roof of his mouth if Jerusalem isn't his highest joy, he personifies Babylon as a woman with her citizens being her children and prays that what Babylon did to Jerusalem she would herself receive - these all reflect the deep emotion of the psalmist's cry. But I don't think there is anything wrong with the desire for justice and salvation. The problems arise with the actions we choose to satisfy these desires.
When we take the second step to applying this psalm to us then we encounter the way that the new covenant continues (and transforms) the facets of the OT religion such as Jerusalem and the enemies of the covenant, as well as the NT ethics of how we are to respond to evil in this world.
Jesus is the New Jerusalem, and Satan, Sin and are the enemies that besiege us, and which are defeated in the ministry of Jesus.
I believe that we are called to hate the evil desires in our own heart and to pray that they would be destroyed completely. I believe that we are called to hate the evil and injustices of this world and to rage against them with the same self sacrificial love that Jesus showed, praying that the God of loving justice would regenerate this fractured world.[/sermonising]
Apologies for raving on, but if you will now turn your in your song books to hymn 324, "Jesus loves me this I know"
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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whitelaughter
Shipmate
# 10611
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Now I am not following. Are you saying that the feelings expressed in the last verse of Ps 137 are moral ? A good thing?
What are you going to do if he says yes?
Back to the verse - it says that the people who were going to trash Babylon would be happy. I'm betting they were: they got to loot the wealthiest city in the world, acquire an empire, slaves etc. It's accurate. And it warns oppressors that when the tables are turned, their misery will be incredibly pleasurable for those who inflict it.
It would serve oppressors right if they were left to get their just desserts; is that why you're complaining? Because they were warned of the fate they were creating for themselves?
Posts: 114 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
Jesus is the New Jerusalem, and Satan, Sin and are the enemies that besiege us, and which are defeated in the ministry of Jesus.
I believe that we are called to hate the evil desires in our own heart and to pray that they would be destroyed completely.
Very nice sermon.
To my mind this is the only way of looking at these Psalms that makes any sense.
Sure the Pslamist was raving with a desire to annihilate the enemy. But he was oppressed and suffering. It is understandable.
But the Christian knows not to hate the enemy. So Anselm's solution is the obvious choice.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Now I am not following. Are you saying that the feelings expressed in the last verse of Ps 137 are moral ? A good thing?
What are you going to do if he says yes?
Back to the verse - it says that the people who were going to trash Babylon would be happy. I'm betting they were: they got to loot the wealthiest city in the world, acquire an empire, slaves etc. It's accurate. And it warns oppressors that when the tables are turned, their misery will be incredibly pleasurable for those who inflict it.
It would serve oppressors right if they were left to get their just desserts; is that why you're complaining? Because they were warned of the fate they were creating for themselves?
I think people are complaining about the dashing children against rocks bit. Is that just desserts?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Now I am not following. Are you saying that the feelings expressed in the last verse of Ps 137 are moral ? A good thing?
What are you going to do if he says yes?
Declare a jihad on his arse, of course.
Sorry, that was lame. I can't find my copy of "Snappy answers to stupid questions" right this minute. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
For my answer to the rest of your post, see what Karl said.
quote:
Posted by Anselm:
The psalmist is crying out for justice and salvation.
Not IMO. The psalmist is crying out for revenge .
As to the injustice of what is happening, while I don't personally disagree with you, I think the OT is unequivocal that the Babylonian captivity is God's just punishment of the Hebrews for idolatry and disobedience. If you want to argue that the brutality of the Babylonians in capturing and exiling the Hebrew peoples was an injustice, you have my blessing. Is that what you're doing?
quote:
Posted by Anselm:
I believe that we are called to hate the evil desires in our own heart and to pray that they would be destroyed completely. I believe that we are called to hate the evil and injustices of this world and to rage against them with the same self sacrificial love that Jesus showed, praying that the God of loving justice would regenerate this fractured world
We clearly live in very different theological worlds, as I can't find terribly much in this that I agree with. But that's a Purg thread (possibly)...
What I will say here is that this seems to me to be a huge hermeneutical leap from the original passage. Don't get me wrong, I do see the process you followed to get there. I don't see the justification, even granted the process, in going from "smashing babys heads against rocks" to hating and destroying evil desires. It seems a bit contrived to me.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
I just re-read my post, and I really am an idiot. I didn't read the section I quoted from Anselm correctly. Such that, this is what I disagree with:
quote:
I believe that we are called to hate the evil desires in our own heart and to pray that they would be destroyed completely
To this part:
quote:
I believe that we are called to hate the evil and injustices of this world and to rage against them with the same self sacrificial love that Jesus showed, praying that the God of loving justice would regenerate this fractured world
I say two things:
First: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Second: Still have no idea how you got this from Psalm 137.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Dark Night,
The second, I think, is just that Babylon stands for all the injustice and evil in the world. So we want to stamp it out.
The part about "self sacrificial love that Jesus showed, praying that the God of loving justice would regenerate this fractured world" isn't in the Psalm, but is just about how Jesus "dashed" evil on the rocks.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
It may well be a dark night where you are posting from Freddie, but if you're indoors you can always hit the light switch ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
As I said, I understand the process, it just strikes me as an enormous leap of logic to get to Anselm's interpretation. It seems to spiritualize or allegorise the original text in a way others may be comfortable with, but I am not. And I think others have shown that there are other ways of interpreting the text not requiring such a allegorised process. Not that it isn't valid, mind you - of course it is. I'm not objecting, just commenting.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
It may well be a dark night where you are posting from Freddie, but if you're indoors you can always hit the light switch
Apologies!
Too much wine and turkey I'd say. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
As I said, I understand the process, it just strikes me as an enormous leap of logic to get to Anselm's interpretation.
That's fine. Maybe so.
I just thought that it is not much of a stretch, since "Babylon" is so widely recognized as a symbol of evil. As in "Babylon by Bus" and "Hollywood Babylon" - which I expect the Psalmist would have listened to or read.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
As I said, I understand the process, it just strikes me as an enormous leap of logic to get to Anselm's interpretation. It seems to spiritualize or allegorise the original text in a way others may be comfortable with, but I am not.
The logic is really asking the question, 'How do the New Testament writers apply these sorts of passages?'
And so, passages such as Ephesians 6 and perhaps Revelation 18 come to mind.
Of course this whole exercise is closely linked to the question of how the NT writers understood what the role and purpose of Israel was in God's plan of salvation.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
As to the injustice of what is happening, while I don't personally disagree with you, I think the OT is unequivocal that the Babylonian captivity is God's just punishment of the Hebrews for idolatry and disobedience. If you want to argue that the brutality of the Babylonians in capturing and exiling the Hebrew peoples was an injustice, you have my blessing. Is that what you're doing?
Isn't that the whole point of Habakkuk?
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Maybe, Custard, but what then is the point of the first 24 chapters of Ezekiel?
Babylon does deserve, corporately, judgement for its unjust treatment of the Exiles. It is not a Christian viewpoint that this is achieved by dashing babies against rocks. That is punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty. It is cruel, unusual and unjust punishment. And that is why the verse sticks in my craw (and Dark Knight's as well, I guess).
A mirror argument can be posed in considering the judgement on Israel, but that is another matter. (My shorthand view of that is that the whole series of kings who "did evil in the sight of the Lord" authorised rottenness in the heart of the Northern and SOuthern Kingdoms, with results as inevitable as the fall of the Roman Empire.)
[ 26. November 2005, 08:33: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Maybe, Custard, but what then is the point of the first 24 chapters of Ezekiel?
And of Habakkuk 1. That's why I mentioned it. The book is a dialogue between God and Habakkuk that goes something like this (except they put it much better):
[Hab] God, why don't you judge the wicked?
[God] I'm going to, and I'm going to use the Babylonians to do it
[Hab] The Babylonians? But they're really evil! How can that be fair?
[God] Oh, don't worry, I'll judge them too later
[Hab] I'm not entirely sure I get this, but it's really cool that you know exactly what you're doing, so I'll praise you anyway.
quote:
Babylon does deserve, corporately, judgement for its unjust treatment of the Exiles. It is not a Christian viewpoint that this is achieved by dashing babies against rocks.
In context, that isn't the judgement for their treatment of the exiles, but for their treatment of those they killed rather than exiling, specifically children...
The verse does assume a lot more corporate responsibility and corporate guilt than we in our individualistic society are used to or than we necessarily want to admit to.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
The sins of the fathers being visited on the children? Corporate guilt? Hmm. How about this from Ezekiel 18?
The ethical issue is straightforward. All of us may suffer because of corporate misbehaviour, bad government. But we are accountable for what we do, not what our fathers, forefathers or fellow "tribesmen" have done. "The soul who sins is the one who will die". The babies don't deserve to die, no matter how great the corporate guilt.
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
But it doesn't say the "dashing children against the rocks" is judgement on the children but on Babylon. It is hard to think of any punishment that could cause more pain and anguish than to see your children dashed against the rocks.
Nor does it say that this actually happens as judgement on Babylon; it is clearly one Jew, who has seen some pretty horrible atrocities done to his people by Babylon, saying that whatever horrible things happen to Babylon, they thoroughly deserve it, and the judgement that will eventually come upon them will be part of God's purposes.
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Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Custard
Thanks for your posts. You've really made me think about the issues of corporate and individual guilt, corporate and individual responsibility, human and Divine judgement. Currently, I'm uneasy with what you say and sense some link between the idea of Divine judgement on countries and the rationalisations of jihadists. I need a little time to think this stuff through and will probably post again - I may start a separate thread.
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
May I try to anticipate the jihadist question?
I think the jihadists are wrong because it is incredibly arrogant to say that God has told me to destroy such-and-such unless you are absolutely 100% certain that he has.
Most of the times that a nation is used to execute God's judgement, that nation itself is judged for what it did. The obvious exception is Israel and Canaan, which from an evangelical perspective does raise questions about jihad.
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Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I think the jihadists are wrong because it is incredibly arrogant to say that God has told me to destroy such-and-such unless you are absolutely 100% certain that he has.
Thanks for that. I guess it does illuminate my concern very well. Although it seems likely that there are cynical manipulators in the current terrorist movement, I get the distinct impression that the suicide bombers are indeed 100% certain that God has decreed their actions as just and in accordance with his Divine judgement. My perspective is that they are misled by a certain type of perverse theology. One which elevates a particular religious cause and its adherents and demonises the different.
The idea that God does judge guilt corporately can indeed be found in both OT and NT. Here is a NT example from Matthew 11. But if we are to be true to the balance between corporate and individual guilt - and corporate and individual judgement, ISTM that we must consider Matthew 25 v 32.
"All the nations will be gathered before him and he will separate the people one from another".
Final judgement by God is seen as an individual matter. We may live in nations, in cities, in "ethnae", where all sorts of good and bad things are done, and these may have corpoate consequences for our societies. Those nations, those cities, may fail and fall. But the notion that God's judgement on those societies involves treating people "en masse" rather than individually is not consistent with either OT (e.g. Ezekiel 18) or NT (Matthew 25). And that is the theological error. I think we should be very careful in the use of terms like corporate guilt and corporate judgment. Judgmentalism over groups is one of the reasons for the mess and unrest in the world.
Which leads neatly back to Psalm 137 vs 8-9.
"O Daughter of babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
The Psalmist makes exactly the mistake I am seeing. The dashing of the babies against the rocks is not God's repayment for the evil the Israelites have suffered. God claims vengeance as a Divine prerogative precisely because human beings not only cannot be trusted with it, but it destroys them inside. C S Lewis is right. These verses illustrate only too well the bitterness born in the human heart as a result of exile, captivity and injustice. As do the suicide bombers. We need to test our understanding to ensure that we do not give aid and comfort to such perverse, self-destructive thoughts.
Love of enemies and forgiveness of those who have treated us unjustly and cruelly are not easy examples to follow. But they are key ways to follow Jesus - and they lead us away from the destructive paths of vengeance.
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
May I try to anticipate the jihadist question?
I think the jihadists are wrong because it is incredibly arrogant to say that God has told me to destroy such-and-such unless you are absolutely 100% certain that he has.
Most of the times that a nation is used to execute God's judgement, that nation itself is judged for what it did. The obvious exception is Israel and Canaan, which from an evangelical perspective does raise questions about jihad.
So you would agree that in the case of Israel and Canaan, it would be "incredibly arrogant" for the Israelites to believe that they had heard from God that they were to wipe out the Canaanites?
Because I would. Self justifying history written by the victors clearly has a very long tradition.
Barny, why do you think the Psalmist is making a mistake in expressing these sentiments? He/she was clearly in no position to be able to carry out the horrible actions they were describing. I think he/she was expressing deep anguish, terrible wrath and pain, and really needed to express it, rather than act on it. If he/she had acted on these sentiments, then certainly I agree a wrong has taken place.
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Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
So you would agree that in the case of Israel and Canaan, it would be "incredibly arrogant" for the Israelites to believe that they had heard from God that they were to wipe out the Canaanites?
I think that that kind of action would need pretty huge evidence to support it. Like, say, God appearing in a pillar of fire and cloud, for example. Maybe if you couple that with being led through the desert for 40 years, having food appear for you every day and a leader whose face visibly shines when he comes out from meeting God.
Having a leader who was so clearly on that kind of wavelength with God and who told me to, I think I'd know.
Oh yes, and to be extra sure, I'd want some kind of miracle on entering Canaan - say the river to part or something, and I'd want it to be clear at the first victory that God was still wanting us to do the killing by making it obvious he was fighting against the city too.
That would probably be enough evidence.
Some pope / mullah telling me my sins would be forgiven, or that I'd get to spend eternity with twelve raisins would not be enough evidence.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Custard
In my tradition, and maybe in yours, we talk of a "root of bitterness". It is a often a necessary part of the healing of bitterness that it be expressed to be seen for what it is. And that is fine. Indeed, that is a part of the C S Lewis take. The expression is understandable. The thought is better "out" than "in".
Unfortunately it is a community song, in a community song book. The lament ends with a bitter thought of retribution - perpetuated and inculcated into the minds of the next generation. And so bitterness can be passed on. The Psalmist does not just have a responsibility to himself, but to all those who follow and sing his song.
And the vendettas continue. Have a look at some of the posts in the Purg thread "Dont offend religions" and the Hell thread "Martin". The heart's cry for justice so easily degenerates into the blood's cry for vengeance. This degeneration is not good for us.
<typo>
[ 29. November 2005, 07:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
It looks like you've posted on the wrong thread Custard. I think what you're looking for is to be found here.
If you do post there I can tell you what I actually think of your sarcasm.
I gather you think that all you need to enter a country and slaughter all its inhabitants is a number of miracles, or at least people saying miracles happened, and then someone pulling the old "God told me so" line.
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Custard and Dark Knight; a hostly request to be a little more erm careful, please.
Pyx_e, Kerygmania Host
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whitelaughter
Shipmate
# 10611
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think people are complaining about the dashing children against rocks bit. Is that just desserts?
Not for the children - but then, they're never going to read it, are they?
Barring coming down in a pillar of smoke, even God has to work with what's available. He has a people who have been oppressed and are understandably bitter. Sure, he could have the psalmist say anything (assuming that the psalmist was inspired), but for it to be worth the effort the psalm needs to be something that will be continously used. So, a psalm which lets the victims vent (ensuring a rapid spread), acts as a warning to future oppressors *and* (if it travels fast enough) gives the current oppressors a warning of the future they are creating for themselves...that's a pretty impressive effort.
Objecting to people dashing children on the rocks - all good. Objecting to people gloating over this - also good. But why object to God using that gloating to attempt to prevent it happening in the first place?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitelaughter:
But why object to God using that gloating to attempt to prevent it happening in the first place?
I've thought for quite a bit before posting this reply, because I don't want to provoke a "Dead Horse" tangent in a very interesting thread. From my POV whitelaughter's question is a very reasonable one - but it is not a viewpoint that finds much acceptance amongst conservative evangelicals. It involves moral criticism of the biblical author; we say "he gloats". We stand in judgement over him - and thereby the text. The Conevo asks, not unreasonably from his POV "What is the limit to this mode of interpretation?".
And that is the significance of the cursing Psalms, the jihadist OT histories (particularly the attributions of commands to God) etc etc. Many of us find this stuff to be morally repugnant, because it stands in sharp contrast to "Sermon on the Mount" ethics, and the teaching and example of Jesus. Using the traditional weighing of scripture with scripture, many of us weigh this stuff in the balance, not of our own presuppositions, but Jesus' words, and we find them wanting. They stand as warnings, not examples.
In the process, however, from the POV of others, we do violence to our acceptance of God's Word. "If Jesus' recorded words are the touchstone, what is your basis for believing them to be an inspired and correct account" they question. And that provokes another huge issue (Living Word versus Written Word). It is not a little point which whitelaughter's question raises, but a very big one indeed.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think that God may have allowed the babies bit to stand precisely in order to provoke the kind of discussion we're having now. The Bible is not a safe book in the sense that we can happily turn our toddlers loose on it, knowing they'll find nothing shocking in it, and everything mentioned or described will be morally upright--or clearly condemned, if not. It looks like we're supposed to use our brains. As we are now.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It looks like we're supposed to use our brains. As we are now.
From Robert Graves' "A Man for All Seasons", spoken by Sir Thomas More.
"We must serve the Lord wittily, in the tangle of our minds"
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
In addition, psalms like 137 help me to remember that the religious zealots who have tumbled into such violence are not usually complete monsters. They have a passion for their God which (properly directed and controlled) could be valuable and world-changing. They do not spend all their time pursuing a hate-filled agenda - there are times when they will seem quite normal and prefectly reasonable.
=======================
All this applies to other parts of the Bible than the Psalms. The daily lectionary reading this morning was from Ezra 10 - all about how Ezra led those who had returned from exile to renounce their non-Jewish wives. I couldn't help feeling that what I was reading was all about "racial purity" and misdirected religious zealotry, rather than being a reflection of the loving, saving God. Was it really God's will that so many wives (and their children) were just rejected? And what did these poor women think about the God in whose name this was done?
I haven't read through the whole thread yet (sorry!) - but Ps 137, imho (of course!), shifts in verses 7 & 8 from being a straightforward "this is what happened and this is how I'm feeling" psalm into metaphor - "Daughter of Babylon" is not a crown princess of Babylon but rather the personification of Babylon itself, and thus the children are not *human* children but rather the product of the 'Evil Empire' itself - the fruits, so to speak - the cruelty and injustice, etc.
As for Ezra, this is the one instance in scripture where God does direct divorce. He spends lots of times warning the Israelites not to be involved with foreign women because they will be a snare to them (consider Numbers 25), He measures "Jewishness" by the woman (if your mother is Jewish, so are you - but if just your father is Jewish, you need to convert to be a "proper Jew") - so the identity of the people group is linked to Jewish men marrying Jewish women (again, consider Solomon, wisest of all men, whose heart was lead astray by his foreign wives). So at this singular moment it's critical that God protect the identity of Israel as they return, a mere remnant, from the 70 year exile in Babylon. Clearly more men returned and lots of women said, "hey, my family and all my friends are here in Persia - why would I go back to Judea?!" - and the vast majority of them didn't. So, if these people that God has chosen to be His teaching example to the nations (and chosen to be the bloodline of Christ) are to continue to exist as an identifiable group, they need to stop blurring the lines right now.
I believe God looked after those wives and children (just as He provided for Ishmael, even though he was not the "son of the promise" but the "son of the flesh") - but, at this particular moment, there was a bigger issue at stake.
[edit to fix scroll lock]
[ 05. December 2005, 08:10: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Hmmn
LynnMagdalenCollege, your post reminds me of a quotation from Ursula K le Guinn's excellent SF story "The Left Hand of Darkness". Its along these lines.
quote:
Emissary to a strange planet
"My mission transcends normal boundaries of friendship and relationships"
Native
"If so, it is an immoral mission"
I know that's a controversial view - and some will say it goes against a saying of Jesus. I don't swallow it wholesale myself. But there is something very strange to me about a mission whose aim includes restoring broken relationships with God being seen as transcending unbroken relationships with people, to the extent of seeing their breaking as good. That feels like "the end justifies the means". Few things cause more alienation than the sense that one has become a victim of such "holier than thou" behaviour.
The principle of separation for the sake of restoring the kingdom is in any case reversed by Paul's guidelines in 1 Cor 7, in which he observes that converts who are already married should remain in the marriage they are in. It is most interesting that he did not recommend a continuation of the Ezra-Nehemiah route even though it seems he could have justified such a route by reference to the OT. Breaking up those families seems, in principle, to have been a misguided and cruel act.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
sorry, Psalm 137 verses 8 & 9 above, not 7 & 8.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
With Oscar. It's what I mean about scripture sometimes giving an example not to follow.
I often wish the Bible "editorialized" a little more - came right out and said, "and that was BAD!"
quote:
posted by Custard:
But it doesn't say the "dashing children against the rocks" is judgement on the children but on Babylon. It is hard to think of any punishment that could cause more pain and anguish than to see your children dashed against the rocks.
Again, looking at "Daughter of Babylon" as metaphor for either a) Babylon the evil but real empire or b) Babylon the label attached to all occultic and greedy world empires and systems of evil. In either case, "children" are the future - without children, a city dies, a people group dies - and smashing the heads of the children of Babylon against a rock means that Babylon (be it a or b) will have no future.
Yes, it is graphic horrible imagery - but a point is being made here, whether simply by the psalmist or by God via the psalmist.
I'm surprised nobody's complained about Psalm 109 yet... that's the one I have the most difficulty with, personally, because I get sucked in to it; I relate to it (verses 1-5 describe my emotional response to the surprise ending of my marriage), and then it goes all ugly on me. And I don't want to go to that place of cursing my ex-husband or his toxic and adulterous friends. I went so far as to draw a diagonal line through the offending verses so that I wouldn't engage in them. But I'm not sure that's a solution, either... So I'm able to reconcile 137 to my own satisfaction, but what about 109? eep!
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