|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: What exactly is so bad about Shine Jesus Shine?
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
What exactly is so bad about Shine Jesus Shine?
It gets moaned about regularly on this website. Shipmates love to hate it.
Is it because it stands in as a representative for a whole set of songs? I'd guess its probably the most widely sung song that came out of the 1970s/80s Restorationist/New Church movement. So I suppose people who have a dislike of modern worship music in general might think of it first.
And its by the Blessed Graham Kendrick of South East London who is - or more accurately was about fifteen years ago - the most overexposed Christian songwriter, You heard him everywhere. So that might spark resentment, or satiation.
BUT its really not that bad. The tune is OK but not brilliant - its actually not that easy to sing for amateurs - the harmony on the end of the tune is odd (like with most Kendrick tunes). But its not that hard. The range is an octave and a third (in A the melody goes from the B below the tonic to the D above it) which is greater than most simple hymns or folk songs, but not egregiously so.
But its not the tune that the knockers knock, its the words. The sentiment.
So just what is wrong with the words? It is not particularly banal or simple or sentimental. Doctrinally its orthodox. In fact Orthodox. Translate it into Greek and say it was by some mediaeval hermit and they'd be chanting it in Athens.
So what is the problem?
(*) Though its not the most sung song of the last few years - in this country that might be something like In Christ Alone (Townend/Getty), Here I Am To Worship (Hughes) or Blessed Be Your Name (Redman). Nor was it the most popular 1970s "chorus" - that was probably How lovely on the mountains - a chunk of Isaiah and some other Bible verses set to the tune of Our God Reigns, the actual verses of which are hardly ever sung any more (and which was written by Lenny Smith who is, or was at the time, an Anglo-Catholic US Episcopalian if I remember correctly)
[ 16. February 2010, 10:47: Message edited by: Think² ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
It's a hymn that's used in all services of our church - and everyone seems to like it. Maybe because they've heard and sung it occasionally, maybe because they've never heard of its "criticism".
Also, when I taught in a secondary school it was sung there (one service on Monday morning only) and the teenage pupils were liking it and singing it as they walked along the corridors to classrooms, and at lunchtime etc, because they both enjoyed it and it was easy to learn.
I like it too; I don't understand why there is negative criticism...
ETA: correcting grammar/spelling ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 04. January 2010, 20:54: Message edited by: daisymay ]
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
|
Posted
Agreed, Ken.
I have never understood the complainers - the words and sense are pretty sound, the tune is singable, even for a non-musician, and the whole thing is inspiring in its way.
It may not be in the same league as some of the traditional hymns (though I suspect a lot of their appeal is just repetition!) It's certainly a lot better than some modern stuff - like the Martin Nystrom's 'As the deer pants for the water' which, IMHO, is trite and banal. 'The apple of my eye' indeed!
But it's horses for courses - one man's Kendrick is another's Wesley. And most of Wesley's aren't sung much these days either!
--------------------
Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
|
Posted
I quite like it actually. There are a lot of choruses I can't stand, but SJS has a lot going for it. It's a reasonably good tune, it doesn't screech on forever on high notes, and it's fun to bash out on a piano. It doesn't keep changing focus, i.e. it's addressed to the Lord throughout rather than hopping between talking about God and to God. It includes a number of references from different parts of the Bible but doesn't take them wildly out of context or stitch them together at random. It manages to strike a balance between the navel-gazing chorus and the triumphalist chorus, by using the verses as an explanation of how the light of Jesus can transform our lives (progressing from light as an inspiration in the darkness, to allowing the light to dispel the dark areas from our hearts, to actually reflecting the Lord's glory as in II Cor 3) while the chorus asks for this light to be evident throughout the world.
Mostly I prefer hymns, but for a chorus this is pretty good. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spong
Ship's coffee grinder
# 1518
|
Posted
Nothing's wrong with it, it's great. Expresses that sort of joy where you want to stand on tiptoes.
It's especially good when belted out by a thousand people in a beer tent in Cheltenham, much to the disgust of The Landlord... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Spong
The needs of our neighbours are the needs of the whole human family. Let's respond just as we do when our immediate family is in need or trouble. Rowan Williams
Posts: 2173 | From: South-East UK | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
Shine on me. = individualistic, not a song of the whole Church.
Fill this land....Flood the nation - I never trust anything that talks about nationhood - right wing.
Your awesome presence - 'awesome' = teenager talk
consume all my darkness....As we gaze on Your kindly brightness - Prof. John Hull, who is blind, has a lot to say about this. God is IN the dark, according to the mystics.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
We still sing it occasionally: it was sung at the Christingle service in December which was all on the theme of light out of darkness. The other one that got sung there was the Bernadette Farrell Longing for Light
I've also sung Shine Jesus Shine to a brass band - and that was fun.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
I've also sung Shine Jesus Shine to a brass band - and that was fun.
(Tangentially: And I've sung the "Hallelujah Chorus" to an accordion - equally fun!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
I first learned it in Assemblies of God circles, so it reminds me of that whole praise & worship style I don't care for (personally), but that's neither here nor there objectively speaking.
But I do find the tune a bit annoying, at least in the verses - that little dip at the end of each line...
[eta: I also find the song too wordy - both in general, and also musically, there are too many words crammed into that tune. As for the tune, I don't think anyone would want to listen to an instrumental version of the song unless they know the lyrics and like it for the lyrics.]
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Shine on me. = individualistic, not a song of the whole Church.
Fill this land....Flood the nation - I never trust anything that talks about nationhood - right wing.
Your awesome presence - 'awesome' = teenager talk
consume all my darkness....As we gaze on Your kindly brightness - Prof. John Hull, who is blind, has a lot to say about this. God is IN the dark, according to the mystics.
I'll give you the first two - I mean, I'm with you on being against too much individualism or nationalism. In the US, "flood the nation..." - any time you hear about "the nation" in religious talk - also has connotations of the sort of political involvement right-wing Christians are so fond of (the ones who seem to desire a theocracy).
But the second two reasons you give I think can be argued both ways. Given the date of composition, the song probably should avoid using "awesome" for the reasons you give, but to be fair, the word does have an actual meaning which is appropriate there. (Or we could return to the older "awful!" ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) And the gazing on Jesus' brightness - recall that the next line says "So our faces display your radiance." There are certainly problems of using only light imagery, but it is a very traditional imagery (mystics aside) and in fact this bit about our faces reflecting the light of Christ is a direct allusion to Moses, whose face shone so brightly after his meeting with God that it had to be veiled. You can't expect one song to balance out every image, so I wouldn't worry too much about the light/dark imagery.
Overall, I can happily live without this particular song. But if it's sung in a service I'm attending, I'll probably sing along. I might wince in a few spots, but I'd try to get over myself.
(We have a brass crucifix in the vestry that people sometimes suggest I should polish, since I polish the metals around here, but since those of us who work here all like it looking aged and a bit tarnished, my response usually is simply to start singing, "Shine, Jesus, shine..." i.e., "Hey, Jesus, since you're just hanging there, would you mind being a little more sparkly?")
[ 04. January 2010, 21:24: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
There are justifiable quibbles, as leo points out, about some of the words. Though it says 'flood the nations' (plural), so it's international not nationalistic. My quibble is 'By the blood I may enter Your brightness': orthodox theology no doubt, but weird imagery. Why not 'through the Cross'?
We used to sing this hymn in the Candlemass procession and it worked very well.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
|
Posted
I suppose I'm uneasy about telling Jesus what to do.
'God save the Queen' could be criticised in the same way, but at least in that you can appeal to the jussive subjunctive.
Posts: 608 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
Why would "through the Cross" be any less weird than "by the blood"? In fact, it might be weirder - is the Cross like that spot of wall in the train station in Harry Potter where if you walk headlong into it you can actually pass through it to somewhere else?
(I also forgot to mention in my previous post that not only do I think the tune is annoying, but the lyrics aren't exactly poetry either. Neither the tune nor the lyrics really stand on their own, aesthetically. Maybe devotionally, but not aesthetically. IMO.)
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
I am one of the moaners (my sig at one time was a self quote, “you have to tell people what you want at your funeral; if you don’t, they might sing “Shine Jesus Shine.”). And to tell you the truth, when I moan about SJS, I use it as a synecdoche for all “praise and worship” music, which I just don’t like that much. I suspect that is why you hear lots of people moan about it- because it is the best known example of a general musical genre that some people don’t like- personal taste and all that.
I suspect that SJS is also just old enough to be unfashionable, so when it is sung, it sounds out of touch. If you are trying to connect with a young person through rock music, you can talk about contemporary groups, or you can talk about the Beatles, the Who, or the Stones, who are classics, but you would seem hopelessly out of touch if you tried to talk to them about Oasis, even if they did, in reality, kick ass. Maybe in 15 years or so it will be alright to buy a copy of “What’s the Story Morning Glory” again, but right now, you would get laughed at. In the same way, when you have a “contemporary” service but still sing “SJS,” you seem out of touch, but it hasn’t been around long enough for people to call it a classic.
And yes, it is wordy.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy412
Apprentice
# 15379
|
Posted
Hai.
lol. There isnt anything wrong with shine jesus Shine but its very old fashioned. a worship leader who used to play at my church was very fond of it and used to make us play it at our traditional service on sunday mornings but never at our contemporary service.
Thank you.
--------------------
Not to us but u be the glory. Yours is the name above evry name. Not to us but to you be the honour wisdom and power and praise.
Posts: 22 | From: UK (at the moment, I travel a lot) | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
It's partly because in the 90s it was the contemporary song sung in ecumenical gatherings, churches including a token modern hymn etc and so it has suffered from over exposure.
I quite like the verses but could live without the chorus (true of much Kendrick cf Meekness and Majesty and the Servant King). The most bizarre thing to me is the weird Trinity:
quote:
Shine Jesus Shine...
Blow Spirit Blow...
Flow River Flow...
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Why would "through the Cross" be any less weird than "by the blood"? In fact, it might be weirder - is the Cross like that spot of wall in the train station in Harry Potter where if you walk headlong into it you can actually pass through it to somewhere else?
Fair point. I suppose 'by the blood' suggests a certain sort of evangelical theology, whereas 'through the cross' doesn't particularly. But either of them will sound weird to a non-Christian.
If it's a Christian hymn, though, I don't think you can dodge theology altogether.
Do we really have to wait until modern worship songs are 'classics' and hence no longer modern? Most people have an inbuilt naffness meter but they will all be set at different levels; I pity those who are so sensitive that they trip at anything written after 1960, or not written for organ accompaniment.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy412
Apprentice
# 15379
|
Posted
Hai Leo
lots of catholic schools sing it along with here i am lord i used to go to a catholic school and they sang it a lot which is why i think our worship leader liked it it was just embarressing when old people did the hand actions and he would get enthusiastic about it and would get the kids to do play homemade instruments. hes gone now and whilst he was nice i dont miss his old fashioned worship.
Thank you
--------------------
Not to us but u be the glory. Yours is the name above evry name. Not to us but to you be the honour wisdom and power and praise.
Posts: 22 | From: UK (at the moment, I travel a lot) | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I pity those who are so sensitive that they trip at anything written after 1960, or not written for organ accompaniment.
The latter is a valid objection if organ accompaniment is what available/common/expected at a church. Worship songs on the organ are to be avoided. ISTR saying SJS can work on the organ, but needs a skilled and sympathetic organist (which is why I would be very unlikely to suggest it at current church, we have a very skilled organist but not one who is sympathetic to SJS style music!)
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ashworth
Shipmate
# 12645
|
Posted
I think SJS just got a bad name in some church circles in the 1990's because it was used so often at large gatherings as the token modern hymn during which certain types of people would clap and raise their hands in praise.
Has anyone ever experienced singing it at a much slower tempo, in a quiet devotional way.
We have occasionally used it in this way during Benediction and it then becomes a very different type of hymn.
Posts: 70 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
We have occasionally used it in this way during Benediction and it then becomes a very different type of hymn.
The 'imagining singing modern evangelical worship song at Benediction' game is quite amusing and sometimes startling.
Carys
--------------------
O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
Every time I hear Shine, Jesus, Shine, I want to hide under a basket.
Every time I've heard it sung, it reminds me of the singing from a specific Eddie Izzard sketch. It's not joyous, it's naff. It's "Lookit me, Daddy God! Look at what I can do!" Like, totally gag me with a spoon.
And I'm not a fan of the mandatory hand actions. I'm in church, not at summer camp. Out of respect, I don't break into Superman-style flying wooshing motions during the Doxology, please respect me by not busting out the SJS hand-wavings.
And now I'll just stop shaking my cane at the Boomers and demanding they get off my lawn.
[ 04. January 2010, 22:35: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ashworth
Shipmate
# 12645
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
We have occasionally used it in this way during Benediction and it then becomes a very different type of hymn.
The 'imagining singing modern evangelical worship song at Benediction' game is quite amusing and sometimes startling.
Carys
Although we do occasionally sing the traditional Benediction hymns 'O saving victim' and 'Therefore we before him bending', more often than not we do sing modern worship songs (well perhaps not always that modern!)
Some of the worship songs that have been labelled as 'Jesus is my boyfriend!' type songs in other threads are very good for a time of devotion before the Blesed Sacrament.
We choose them very carefully but many can be very scriptural and very directly focus upon Jesus. I don't know what some of the evangelical writers of these songs would think of us using them in this way.
Some of the worship songs that we use regularly during Benediction are:
Open our eyes Lord, we want to see Jesus
Jesus, name above all names
Jesus, we enthrone you
Jesus, King of Kings, we worship and adore you.
My Jesus, my Saviour
Jesus take me as I am
Spirit of God, show me Jesus
Be still, for the presence of the Lord
The Servant King
Meekness and Majesty
Broken for me Lord
Here is bread, here is wine
This is my body, broken for you
All heaven declares
To be in your presence
I will seek your face O Lord
As we are gathered (including the following second verse - no idea of its source!)
"As we are gathered" lyrics (first verse)
As we are gathered, Jesus is here;
Now on the altar, Jesus is here;
Gift of the Spirit, Body and Blood,
Worshipped by angels, adored above.
As we are gathered, Jesus is here;
Now on the altar, Jesus is here.
[Edited for copyright. Mamacita, Host]
[ 05. January 2010, 04:00: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posts: 70 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Meh, it's not as bad as Lord, I Lift Your Name on High. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Zach
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
|
Posted
Is there a pond difference? I'd never heard of it until I started coming to the Ship.
Or maybe the churches I've served are just that stuck in the mud and I never got the opportunity to hear it.
--------------------
The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
People complain about the hand actions.
What hand actions?
I've never run across them.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
BenjaminS
Apprentice
# 13224
|
Posted
I don't think it's a pond difference--we certainly sang it plenty of times in the Southern California Southern Baptist Church of my teenage years (both in main Sunday worship and in youth group).
Posts: 48 | From: Austin, Texas | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
How is SJS horrible? Let me count the ways.
What others have said about "nationhood" and summer-camp hand-clapping. Please.
It's a boy-hymn, by which I mean, the lyrics exclusively refer to God in the masculine ("Father's" glory, "kingly" brightness). It was written in 1987; there's no excuse for that. The Trinity is not a boy band.
"As we gaze on your kingly brightness" - um, when would that have been? Dying on the cross? Assuming it refers to the Transfiguration, that seemed to have been a rather private moment between Jesus and a few close disciples, not for public consumption. ISTM this is the temptation that Jesus turned down in the desert - the opportunity to impress everyone with kingly brightness. I guess this is just not my spirituality, nor my primary image of Jesus. YMMV.
It's just weird to command Jesus to shine. ("Shine, damn you! Shine! FFS, shine!" What is he, a defective torch?)
I will be as respectful as I can here, Ashworth. But IME, SJS played slowly is excruciating. At slow tempo it's so bad it makes me forget the badness of the lyrics, becoming a blinding force of badness, an imploding star of pain. In that sense it does remind me of Epiphany, but not in a good way.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
How is SJS horrible? Let me count the ways.
It's just weird to command Jesus to shine. ("Shine, damn you! Shine! FFS, shine!" What is he, a defective torch?)
That bothers me too. It treats Christ as an object that we can control - or at least give orders to. Christ subordinate to us?
It also seems very pre-occupied with external manifestations - almost exhibitionistic: "flood the nations", blind everyone with light, let's have a big scene! It is just over the top for me. It is not how I would express my faith emotionally. It feels foreign, unnatural to me - repelling.
This is a matter of personality differences. Just because a song works for some people, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. The extroverts are busy trying to get everyone else to be really extroverted in their expression of worship ... and the introverts are quietly slinking towards the exits, because they feel emotionally disturbed, even violated, by the experience. Been there and done that.
No, SJS doesn't make me nauseous, but it leaves me cold - switched off. So too does "Majesty" ("Kingdom authority flow from his throne unto his own"... "yeah, we got AUTHORITY now, and we know how to use it!" Ugh shudder).
--------------------
MSHB: Member of the Shire Hobbit Brigade
Posts: 1522 | From: Dharawal Country | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
It's just weird to command Jesus to shine. ("Shine, damn you! Shine! FFS, shine!" What is he, a defective torch?)
There are at least a dozen appeals to the LORD to shine in the Psalms!
quote:
It's a boy-hymn, by which I mean, the lyrics exclusively refer to God in the masculine ("Father's" glory, "kingly" brightness). It was written in 1987; there's no excuse for that.
Along with probably over 99% of all hymns whether written before or after the 1980s. Deal with it. And the imagery is entirely Biblical.
quote:
"As we gaze on your kingly brightness" - um, when would that have been? Dying on the cross? Assuming it refers to the Transfiguration, that seemed to have been a rather private moment between Jesus and a few close disciples, not for public consumption.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Well, obviously its a more or less metaphorical description of adoration in worship. Talking about the relationship between the believer and God now, not just historically. Which is par for the course in a song that comes out of a charismatic strand of Christian worship.
But also very traditional - it recruits temple imagery into Christian worship, the idea of the LORD in his Temple, adored by worshippers, familiar from Psalms and Prophets. And it reminds of Moses's blessing from Numbers: "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace."
quote:
As we gaze on your kingly brightness
So our faces display your likeness
Ever changing from glory to glory
Mirrored here may our lives tell your story
The argument is pretty straight out of the first letter of John. It was St John who wrote "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" and "we shall be like him when we see him as he is" and John's Gospel that reports Jesus saying "I am the Light of the World; whoever follows me will not walk in the darkness"
There is perhaps an intended reference to the light of Tabor as well - its not an unknown image in Protestant worship, especially at the Pentecostal/Charismatic end of things - And Graham Kendrick has another less popular song which talks about Jesus:
quote:
Uncreated light
Shines through infant eyes
[Deleted duplicate post. Mamacita, Host]
[ 05. January 2010, 05:09: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
The post so nice, you made it twice?
Interesting that you think you can argue others into liking SJS. I never said the imagery was unBiblical; indeed, it uses similar words and phrases. SJS just organizes them into what I hear as an unpleasant, triumphalist honk.
Perversely, I now dislike it more than before the thread started.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
|
Posted
I quite like it. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Unlike a lot of worship songs, it is actually singable by massed voices. The tune, though syncopated, is not too convoluted or rhythmically challenging. In that respect, it's a vast improvement on 'Make me a channel of your peace', 'Be not afraid' or 'Eagles Swings', to name but a few.
--------------------
David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ErinBear
Shipmate
# 13173
|
Posted
I'm also one of the people who does not care for this song.
I was introduced to it at my current church, where I was the pianist for the children's choir and played it for endless rehearsals. When it came time to sing it in worship, we sang it with the adult choir. The organist played, freeing me from the piano, but then they asked me to sing along. We repeated it over. And over. And over. then Over Again Some More.
The very first time I heard it, it made me think of some badly-written soda-pop jingle, or maybe even the music for a cleaning-product campaign! (Shine! Shine! Shine!) The words are just so odd in places. The music is not fun to play from my perspective at the piano, nor do I find it fun to sing. I find it boring and overly repetitive. I know that it's accessible, but there are plenty of accessible songs which are interesting musically and still have good lyrics and even cover the same topic.
The spiritual "This Little Light of Mine" is one I would suggest, although there are others. "This Little Light" even works for intergenerational singing, which is the way my church was trying to use "Shine" the times it employed it.
Blessings,
ErinBear
Posts: 2441 | From: California, USA | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ErinBear
Shipmate
# 13173
|
Posted
Oh one other thing....I think another thing that annoyed me about "Shine, Jesus, Shine" if all the above points were not enough....
It seems like our church was using this song to make it seem like we were being current and modern at times, when in fact "Shine" seems like it is out-of-date to me, as other posters have mentioned. I confess I like traditional music best in worship, but if you're going to use a modern worship song, please use a good contemporary one (and there are some good ones out there).
Blessings,
ErinBear
Posts: 2441 | From: California, USA | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ErinBear:
Oh one other thing....I think another thing that annoyed me about "Shine, Jesus, Shine" if all the above points were not enough....
It seems like our church was using this song to make it seem like we were being current and modern at times, when in fact "Shine" seems like it is out-of-date to me, as other posters have mentioned. I confess I like traditional music best in worship, but if you're going to use a modern worship song, please use a good contemporary one (and there are some good ones out there).
Blessings,
ErinBear
Is there no room then for worship music that is in a certain age range -- i.e. too old to be contemporary and too new to be classic? If it's less than 100 years old but more than 25, say, it's out of bounds? Will SJS come back into acceptability 75 years from now, or will the "classics" definition line stay frozen in space while the "contemporary" window continues to slide forward? In other words is an entire swath of worship music simply disposable? Use it until it's too old, then throw it away -- as opposed to the now-closed canon of "Classics" which will continue to be acceptable as Classics? That's how what you have said strikes me.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
Written in 1987, eh? I'm thinking, is that about when Cursillo/Emmaus became popular? Sounds about right for the church I was involved in mid-80s.
The local Emmaus bunch have a set of a dozen or so songs they call "Emmaus songs," they do the same songs every monthly gathering. All from about that time frame, I think. They talk like they aren't allowed to do non-Emmaus songs.
Preacher said he wished he could hear a song more recent than the 80s. So there's one vote against SJS - not specifically that song but being stuck in that era or, I would guess, in any one era.
P.S. - Google is my friend. Emmaus song book, first 100 or so songs are pre-1990, but a lot of 1990s songs follow. Nothing post 1999, the book was compiled in 2000. Downloadable words and guitar tabs. My theory Emmaus is stuck in the 80s seems disproved, maybe it's just the local group.
(I haven't done Emmaus/Cursillo, don't plan to, but occasionally I go to one of their monthly meetings for a meal and a chat and some singing I can play with musically.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
As we are gathered (including the following second verse - no idea of its source!)
Ashworth, I removed one of the two verses you posted because of copyright concerns (see Commandment 7). As a general rule, we post just one verse of a hymn and if possible provide a link to the rest of it.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
And a reminder to all to keep on topic. General complaints about "all the other praise songs I hate" belongs on the "Crappy Choruses" thread in DH. Comments about "all the other praise songs I like" are probably better suited for the "Best Worship Songs" thread currently active in Eccles.
Thanks.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Phos Hilaron
Shipmate
# 6914
|
Posted
From the OP
quote:
What exactly is so bad about Shine Jesus Shine?
I take it you've never sung it with the associated hand movements? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Gaero?.......Gaero!
Posts: 1684 | From: Choson | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Kat in the Hat
Shipmate
# 2557
|
Posted
echoing John Holding - What hand movements? or do you mean clapping along in the chorus?
I used to enjoy singing it when it first appeared in church, but feel that it does get used too much now - especially when we have a visiting preacher who knows our chuch enjoys singing contemporary songs, so will include it - with the rest of the music being pre 1900s
(eta - spelling!)
[ 05. January 2010, 06:52: Message edited by: The Kat in the Hat ]
--------------------
Less is more ...
Posts: 485 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
|
Posted
I don't want to sing loudly at the upper limit of my vocal reach telling Jesus to shine.
I do enjoy 'This little light of mine', sung with vigour by all ages at camp last year and now featuring ina Telecom commercial, which makes us break out into song around the house.
I'll sing with enthusiasm Farrell's 'Christ be our light', which is a manageable metaphor if you want to think on the Light of the World.
I suspect that the best of Kendrick will last and the rest be forgotten (as with Wesley, no?) I'll keep The Servant King, Beauty for Brokenness, and maybe that's all.
GG
--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Phos Hilaron
Shipmate
# 6914
|
Posted
Oh no, there were hand and arm movements that fitted in with the lyrics of the chorus. I can't remember them now, it was a long time ago (at Lourdes of all places!) and my mind has blanked out the horror.
--------------------
Gaero?.......Gaero!
Posts: 1684 | From: Choson | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
It's just weird to command Jesus to shine. ("Shine, damn you! Shine! FFS, shine!" What is he, a defective torch?)
That bothers me too. It treats Christ as an object that we can control - or at least give orders to. Christ subordinate to us?
Do you have a problem with people saying "Lord, have mercy"? It's phrased in exactly the same way, but most people seem to be able to cope with such phrasing being a request rather than a command in that instance...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee
Same idea, really.
I'm also slightly tickled by the combination of
quote:
Shine on me. = individualistic
With a swift follow up complaint about;
quote:
Fill this land....Flood the nation
...although I appreciate that criticism was based on a missed plural, it strikes me that it would be hard to sustain a similar level of criticism was applied to the average hymn book for every first person reference or land/nation/nations reference without getting quite tired.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
|
Posted
Our organist plays "Shine Jesus Shine" well and none of our organists has ever complained about it, and they all seem to have been totally competent at playing it. It can also be sung with guitar and piano and violin and trumpet etc etc.
The action which we don't seem to do now was both hands held high and waved from side to side.
--------------------
London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
|
Posted
I remember the naff clapping, a la football chants:
Shine - o-on meee (clapclap clapclap)
Shine - o-on meee (clapclap clapclap)
I haven't sung the song in years, but the clapping disappeared pretty quickly in my area.
Wasn't it originally part of a March for Jesus? I'm sure I remember singing it in that context, along with chants such as:
Who - has - power to save?
(clapclapclapclap) JE-SUS!
Since the intention was to sound a bit like a rowdy football crowd, they worked in that context, but you wouldn't want to do it on an average Sunday at church.
(It always reminded me of Meatloaf's 'You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth' actually...)
--------------------
*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
|
Posted
I was introduced to SJS by a "very" Christian girlfriend-of-the-moment who loved it, which might have a lot to do with why I hate it... The proof-texters round here would be very amused to hear that I could usually out-theology her, despite the fact that she was a regular churchgoer and server, and I'd not been to any regular worship for at least 15 years even then - but I digress. It just struck me as being far too "me-me-me!" and I knew that if I could pick up a tune that fast it was aimed at the musically illiterate.
As it happens, I've discovered that played with an appropriate instrument it's bearable. It is greatly improved by the application of an enormous organ - perhaps not a Johnson with a Vox Dei stop, but the roof-lifter at St Peter and St Paul, Wantage, comes close.
As for "I've got a little light" - just make sure the organist is fully wound first. It was played at my nephew's christening and even tin-eared I could see from the words that it needed to played at a swinging hands-down-for-tea-everybody pace. So the organist played it as a dirge, and even the choir (both of them...) kept tripping over it, trying to sing slowly enough. Funnily enough, despite that, I DO like IGALL - possibly because of the joy in the inner spirit element, or maybe I just feel sorry for it?
AG
--------------------
"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
This came up at my parents' church when I was there over the holidays, and I was expecting to suffer through it, but like ken says, found it's really not as bas as I remember it being. I think the main problem is overuse. Anything that you sing that often (and at the time, we used to sing it allllllll the time) gets tired.
My other objection to Kendrick is that there are often too many clever but unneccessary key changes making it hard to play if one is not an extremely competent musician. Consequently it gets massacred and sounds horrible.
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
chiltern_hundred
Shipmate
# 13659
|
Posted
leo scripsit:
quote:
Your awesome presence - 'awesome' = teenager talk
- not at the time it was written, I'm sure, although I'm too old to judge and don't hang around teenagers.
That said, I echo the misgivings about the "shine on me" individualism/solipcism. The whole thing isn't actually grossly awful; in the same way that Slade's 'So here it is, Merry Christmas' isn't actually grossly awful - it's just that hearing it all the bloody time tends to put you off it.
IME SJS is to the Noughties was Lord of the Dance was in the Seventies - something that was wheeled out on every occasion, however inappropriate, whenever the old fogies who run the church want to appear to be down with the kids and somehow cool, like, innit. Yeah.
Posts: 691 | From: Duck City, UK | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
CH is quite right - whether we like SJS or not (and I think its real problem has been over-use), we can't retrospectively judge its language by today's standards. In 1979 (or whenever) the word "awesome" could probably used in its correct sense.
What we need to do is reclaim the true meanings of "awesome" (and its cognate "aweful") - together with other similar words that have been voided of their content, such as "brilliant", "fantastic" and "fabulous". ("Wicked" also springs to mind ...).
I don't think we'll manage it.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
