Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: What exactly is so bad about Shine Jesus Shine?
|
daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stejjie: Also, what's so bad about popular music that Christian music should exist "apart" from it? That suggests to me that it simply has nothing that can be used rightly by Christians, that God can have no use for it at all. Is that really the case?
Edited to fix code
That's a very proper question. I think any sort of music is suitable for worship, providing it's good of its kind and works in the context in which it is placed.
It is also very correctly observed on this thread that what passes for 'modern' in church is by no means so in the outside world.
Thus, music that is:
demonstrably poor in terms of musical grammar,
or that is intended for congregational singing but unsuitable because of over-wide compass or over-complicated rhythms,
or that cannot be adequately accompanied by the resources available,
or that is in a transient and dated style,
should not be scheduled simply with the hope of being seen as attractive or relevent.
Speaking of popular music, one of the best 'Songs of Praise' broadcasts I ever saw was from a trad jazz festival somewhere in Berkshire or Oxfordshire. I shall never forget the fabulous version of 'What a Friend we have in Jesus', complete with large audience/congregation in full voice. Of course, that wasn't any more up-to-date than a Byrd motet or a Stanford Magnificat, but it was one amazingly effective piece of worship.....
-------------------- David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by ptarmigan: In short it seems nonsensical to use of the language and concepts of teenage romance to describe how one relates to The Logos Who was from the beginning and now "sitteth at the right hand of God"; whose presence cannot be mediated to us by any of our senses (sight, hearing, touch etc) but only through our imagination.
Sorry, did you miss the memo?
There's a whole book of the Bible that does that.
-------------------- Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains. Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
|
Posted
I understand that many carols (I don't know about other hymns) were set to traditional or popular tunes. Of course, nowadays there are so many genres of pop or rock music alone that what one person knows and enjoys may be anathema to another – and some have no recognisable tune to which words might be set (says Granny).
Then again the words which appeal to one churchgoer might be totally unacceptable to another.
John Bell and Graham Maule of Iona's Wild Goose Group successfully set good words to traditional tunes – it's odd to sing reflective words to a tune to which you've danced a strathspey, though, especially if it's been 'remastered' into 3/4 time.
That said, I expect that out of all the contemporary hymns and song we sing, some will endure, among then a couple of Graham Kendrick's – but not SJS.
-------------------- The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor: quote: Originally posted by ptarmigan: In short it seems nonsensical to use of the language and concepts of teenage romance to describe how one relates to The Logos Who was from the beginning and now "sitteth at the right hand of God"; whose presence cannot be mediated to us by any of our senses (sight, hearing, touch etc) but only through our imagination.
Sorry, did you miss the memo?
There's a whole book of the Bible that does that.
And of course there's a whole book where TLWWFTB... uses the language and concepts of teenage romance (or at least the feelings often expressed in song) to describe how he relates to us.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
I would suggest that this rather terrifying concept is in fact the whole point of the Incarnation!
But this is missing the point - of course Shine, Jesus, Shine does not encompass the whole of Christian theology - and nor is it meant to! It is meant to allow Christians to express through the gift of song some aspect important to their faith. Which, IMO, it does extremely well. To criticise it on these grounds is as ridiculous as railing against 'Angels from the Realms of Glory' for a lack of Eucharistic theology, or 'There's a Wideness in God's Mercy' because it doesn't encourage prayer for the departed, or 'Guide Me, Oh Thou Great Redeemer' because it neglects the importance of charitable works. The totally of the Christian verity will never be expressed in such a way - SJS instead concentrates on a few aspects - the thought of the Transiguration, theosis, spiritual revival, absolution of sins - not a complete potted version of Christianity, but not heretical either, surely!?
The only faults that can validly be raised against it are (a) some churches overuse it; and (b) it turns into a miserable dirge if it is played very slowly on a wonky organ, which is, alas, a fate all too common for it!
-------------------- Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cantiones Sacrae
Shipmate
# 12774
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
The only faults that can validly be raised against it are (a) some churches overuse it; and (b) it turns into a miserable dirge if it is played very slowly on a wonky organ, which is, alas, a fate all too common for it!
When it is played as in (b) we must assume that the organist is either unaware of the inappropriateness of their interpretation, or they know full well how antipathetic it is and are doing it deliberately. In either case there must be an ordained minister who knows, at least in part, what is going on and should either get an appropriate musician or cease programming the song (and others like it). There is absolutely no point in doing anything in that way, and it can only take away from the worship of God.
Posts: 271 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by dj_ordinaire: 'There's a Wideness in God's Mercy'
TANGENT/ I LOVED that song when I was a child! Alas, after a few years I discovered I had misread. I thought it said "There's a wildness in God's mercy" - ah, my kind of God, exuberant, alive, vital energy, like the powerful active ocean waves in a storm, what a vibrant image!
There's a "wideness" in God's mercy? How boringly subdued. I've never liked it as much since I learned how to read better.
I suppose that's a whole different thread - what hymns did you like until you understood them correctly, or v.v.
/TANGENT
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|