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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Diagnosing 'learning difficulties' -or worse- in children
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Makepiece
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# 10454
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Posted
I was in school 20 years ago and I was pretty unaware of learning difficulties or mental health issues. Now every other child seems to have some sort of problem or other.
Is it helpful to diagnose mild 'problems' in children? Would you be content if your child was diagnosed with mild autism, ADHD or dyspraxia because helpful interventions could be put in place? Or would you be concerned about your child being labelled at a young age, and embarrassed by overzealous teachers, when they could simply grow out of it?
I'm talking here of mild conditions because I'm sure anyone would agree that it's helpful to diagnose more severe cases.
[ 15. June 2016, 18:45: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
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Posts: 938 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If the conditions don't affect their ability to function in school, are they worth diagnosing? If they do, are they mild?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454
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Posted
Surely there is a range of abilities in school though. In the past people simply accepted that some were less able than others. I guess part of the issue here is whether there are really interventions which can assist such children. Can't labelling itself be a disabling experience?
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Posts: 938 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Mousethief has it in a nutshell.
I have ADHD and dyslexia. I was diagnosed two years ago. I've been a teacher for 32 years and am now studying for a Masters degree in SpLD.
It's not a matter of being 'less able' - you can be incredibly intelligent and have dyslexia.
Do I wish I had known about my own specific learning difficulties?
I don't know, probably.
I was lucky though - I didn't go to school until I was seven and then finished at lunch time every day, so didn't suffer long.
[ 08. September 2010, 20:26: Message edited by: Boogie ]
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
Can't labelling itself be a disabling experience?
Yes, it can. Until we knew he had Asperger's, middle son's diagnosis was "lazy", given him by the school administrators. The real diagnosis was liberating, as it meant (a) we weren't alone in dealing with this particular set of problems, and (b) others before us had found strategies on how to cope with it.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
Can't labelling itself be a disabling experience?
Yes, it can. Until we knew he had Asperger's, middle son's diagnosis was "lazy", given him by the school administrators. The real diagnosis was liberating, as it meant (a) we weren't alone in dealing with this particular set of problems, and (b) others before us had found strategies on how to cope with it.
But isn't that really an argument FOR diagnosis? It was the lack of a diagnosis that led to the inaccurate labeling and inappropriate expectations.
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Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But isn't that really an argument FOR diagnosis?
Yes, yes it was.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
Can't labelling itself be a disabling experience?
Yes, it can. Until we knew he had Asperger's, middle son's diagnosis was "lazy", given him by the school administrators. The real diagnosis was liberating, as it meant (a) we weren't alone in dealing with this particular set of problems, and (b) others before us had found strategies on how to cope with it.
That's interesting, it must be very frustrating to be labelled as lazy when the cause of the problem is entirely different.
Is there a risk though of then creating fictional limitations which aren't there? For example people who don't understand the condition could assume that there are limitations there which really aren't and this could create a self fulfilling prophesy. On the other hand the person with the condition may start to lack confidence in abilities which really aren't affected by the condition.
Of course it still may be better to be diagnosed but how do you deal with potential obstacles like these?
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Posts: 938 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Education and good will and as a last resort legal action (if the school is uncooperative).
[eta] The thing is, if the kid is having difficulties in school, she's going to be labelled anyway -- "lazy" or "defiant" or "unruly" or worse. Better to have the correct label, so that remediation as needed can be applied. Also so that, in the US at least, IDEA (Americans with Disabilities in Education Act) can be brought to bear.
[ 08. September 2010, 20:57: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
Assuming that we are not using mild as a code for the miss diagnosis of conditions, I would say it’s better to know than to labour in ignorance. I think this firstly because co-morbidity is common with various specific learning difficulties. So a mild difficulty in one area can often be a clue or indicator of more serious issue in other areas. Given the number of kids who historically slipped through the net I think it wise to be a little overcautious.
Furthermore if you have identified the cause of a problem you are half way to fixing or adapting to it. You have access to the tools you need to address and cope with the issue. For example with dyspraxia there are exercises which can help to address some of the issues. Knowledge is power and affords you the opportunity to take positive action which in the case of mild conditions could yield very positive results. To not do so is akin to not checking out the warning light on the dashboard if the car still starts up. We are all tempted to do it but in the long run it’s not the smart course of action.
As for worrying about your child being ladled by others, I would contend that raising your kids to give a dam about the prejudices of others would be doing them a far greater disservice than helping them to take on board there difficulties and overcome them.
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
It must be very frustrating to be labelled as lazy when the cause of the problem is entirely different.
Yes, yes it is.
My own case: I tested out as 'extremely gifted' (read: smarter than all y'all) in every subject, except math. The conclusion by the educational specialists of the 1980s was that I wasn't trying hard enough. Spent the next seven years of education being extremely frustrated with every single math class, never being able to finish a complete math exam, and getting no higher than a C- (and that by scraping and pleading) until I gave up on math entirely the first semester of 10th grade.
As I signed the paperwork to drop Advanced Trig (because that was where 'smart kids' like me needed to be), I was told I could still pass if I "worked harder". I believe my reply was something along the lines of "shuck that fit".
Graduated college six years later without knowing my times tables and having to resort to a calculator for many basic math problems. Got my first 'real' job working as Student Body Coordinator. Was preparing a bulletin board on Learning Disability testing options. The LD Testing coordinator was rattling off a list of things they tested for, and she said the magic word:
"Dyscalculia"
"I'm not familiar with that one."
"It's similar to dyslexia, but with numbers. It's also hereditary."
"...what does a staff member need to do to take these tests?"
Got my formal, registered diagnosis of dyscalculia and finally stopped feeling like an idiot for counting on my fingers and getting lost, because it comes with a side order of spatial reasoning issues.
It appears in some cases to be hereditary, and somehow related to dyslexia-- which my father has.
Now that I understand how my brain works, and learned some coping strategies (and have a calculator always handy on my cell phone), I've had a whole different world of job opportunities open up to me. My current work is in an accounting-related field, one I never thought I'd be able to do back when I thought I was too stupid to get math. It takes me a bit longer than other people in my work group to complete numbers, but because I go over them at least three times, my reports have fewer mistakes.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
Would you be content if your child was diagnosed with mild autism, ADHD or dyspraxia because helpful interventions could be put in place?
The usual intervention for a mild "special need" is some paperwork that makes no difference, but the process of telling the child they have a special need might, if they are inclined to be lazy or badly behaved, give them an excuse for being lazy or badly behaved.
The next most likely intervention would be assistance in class from a teaching assistant. The UK government commissioned research into this and discovered that this "help" actually lowered academic attainment of those students recieving help.
A good school will concentrate on teaching not labelling students with "needs" that probably don't exist. Unless your child has severe problems (i.e. something that even in less enlightened eras would have been seen as disability not a personality trait) steer clear of the SEN racket. It is about medicalising normal variations in character and ability as an excuse for bureacracy, pseudo-science and appeasement.
You can go into a lot of schools now and find academically weak kids who won't even open their books because they expect an adult to do it for them, and badly behaved children who expect to be spoilt rotten whenever they misbehave. The SEN racket wastes money, infantalises the young, undermines the authority of adults and, worst of all, seeks to find excuses for denying people their share of the intellectual inheritance of their culture.
[ 08. September 2010, 21:21: Message edited by: oldandrew ]
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Teaching Blog at: http://teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/
Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spi[QUOTE]Originally posted by Makepiece:
Now that I understand how my brain works, and learned some coping strategies (and have a calculator always handy on my cell phone), I've had a whole different world of job opportunities open up to me. My current work is in an accounting-related field, one I never thought I'd be able to do back when I thought I was too stupid to get math. It takes me a bit longer than other people in my work group to complete numbers, but because I go over them at least three times, my reports have fewer mistakes.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) yes
Looking back, I have employed many coping strategies, and did at school too. Many of them learned from my Dad who was just like me.
I often got the label 'lazy' - fact was I was putting more effort in, not less.
'If she paid more attention .....' was on all my reports.
It's good to know why, even looking back so many years. So many teachers knocked me back - but (as is often the case) I was very resilient.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
Would you be content if your child was diagnosed with mild autism, ADHD or dyspraxia because helpful interventions could be put in place?
<snip>Unless your child has severe problems (i.e. something that even in less enlightened eras would have been seen as disability not a personality trait) steer clear of the SEN racket. It is about medicalising normal variations in character and ability as an excuse for bureacracy, pseudo-science and appeasement.<snip>
Actually even quite mild dyslexia, which would almost certainly not even have been recognised in a general educational context in earlier times, but which has a clear physiological component and neuropathology, can result in a child, who is nonetheless very intelligent, being labelled as lazy. Proper diagnosis enables proper remedial and coping measures. Woe betide the child whose teacher regards it as a need that doesn't exist.
Of course it is little better to diagnose the problem, but to fail to provide appropriate resources to deal with it.
I can think, off the cuff, of two highly able highly qualified adults whose late diagnosis of dyslexia has opened up a whole new world of possibilities for them, and explained to them the miseries they suffered in the school system three or four decades ago when they were simply labelled as lazy or stupid.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
A good school will concentrate on teaching not labelling students with "needs" that probably don't exist.
Are you a doctor? Do you have the right to say any given child's special needs don't exist? No, and no. This is intentionally provocative and inflammatory, and potentially destructive of multiple children's schooling.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The thing is, if the kid is having difficulties in school, she's going to be labelled anyway -- "lazy" or "defiant" or "unruly" or worse.
Most children with disabilities are not lazy, defiant or unruly. The idea that they are has been cooked up by those people who believe that children are intellectually brilliant living saints. It is so hard for them to explain why children behave badly or do poorly in academic subjects that their usual approach is to suggest that children are not responsible for their behaviour or low achievement because they have some kind of problem that makes them misbehave or underachieve. Obvious problems include unsympathetic teachers, low self-esteem or poverty. Sometimes though, particularly when middle class kids have academic weaknesses, or when behaviour is particularly bad, the "problem" is identified as some kind of "special need" a phrase that is used to place genuine disabilities alongside any old weakness or character flaw.
For those of us who have encountered children with genuine problems, nothing is more offensive than the claim that this means we can expect them to act as if they are lazy, defiant or unruly. There is no connection between disabilities, disadvantage and misfortune and bad behaviour, except for the one adults create by having low expectations for those students with most to gain from high expectations.
Some people are bad at some stuff. Some people are just arseholes. Just because sometimes those people are children doesn't make it a medical condition, a psychological problem or a disability. To pretend it is to ignore human weakness and to insult those who genuinely do have problems.
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Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Actually even quite mild dyslexia, which would almost certainly not even have been recognised in a general educational context in earlier times, but which has a clear physiological component and neuropathology,
Simply not true. There is no single condition of "dyslexia", least of all one that can be identified physiologically.
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
can result in a child, who is nonetheless very intelligent, being labelled as lazy. Proper diagnosis enables proper remedial and coping measures. Woe betide the child whose teacher regards it as a need that doesn't exist.
The best treatment for dyslexia is the same as for any other child who can't read well - more time spent being taught to read and practising the skill.
"Coping measures" can actually be a distraction from that.
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Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
A good school will concentrate on teaching not labelling students with "needs" that probably don't exist.
Are you a doctor? Do you have the right to say any given child's special needs don't exist? No, and no. This is intentionally provocative and inflammatory, and potentially destructive of multiple children's schooling.
I very much doubt that you are a doctor either, but this is beside the point as only a tiny fraction of children who are identified as having special needs have ever been diagnosed by a doctor.
Even where doctors exist who will sign off on a given condition, there is very often very little hard science behind it (the diagnositic descriptions of a lot of these conditions are prone to changing). Plenty of doctors have objected to the medicalising of personality traits.
[ 08. September 2010, 21:50: Message edited by: oldandrew ]
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Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I agree that there is controversy round this area. There is, however, a considerable body of evidence of specific neurological differences. In fact as your response hints the term 'dyslexia' is something of a catch-all, so there is not one clear identifiable condition to which the term is consistently applied.
I deliberately avoided stating that dyslexia could be identified or diagnosed physiologically. I don't think that the research so far has reached the point of providing diagnostic information.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Makepiece
Shipmate
# 10454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
[QUOTE] there is very often very little hard science behind it (the diagnositic descriptions of a lot of these conditions are prone to changing).
That may be correct but without giving examples of flimsy science it's difficult to know whether you opinion is any better than another persons. Are you aware of any specific examples of Mickey Mouse science?
I must admit that some of the interventions do cause images of medieval alchemy to flash through my mind (eg ritalin).
It seems to me that the primary issue here is whether or not interventions have been shown to work. If they have not been shown to work, or even cause damage as oldandrew contends, then clearly diagnosis would be unhelpful. If they have been shown to work however then obviously diagnosis is worthwhile.
Clearly some of the people who have responded have found coping mechanisms helpful. Others, such as Boogie, appear to have established coping mechanisms prior to any diagnosis.
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Posts: 938 | From: Nottingham | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
I very much doubt that you are a doctor either,
Yes but I am not making claims about who is or isn't really learning disabled.
quote:
but this is beside the point as only a tiny fraction of children who are identified as having special needs have ever been diagnosed by a doctor.
Easy to type isn't it? You have any source for it?
quote:
Even where doctors exist who will sign off on a given condition, there is very often very little hard science behind it (the diagnositic descriptions of a lot of these conditions are prone to changing). Plenty of doctors have objected to the medicalising of personality traits.
You're tarring a lot of canvas with a very broad brush. Plenty of doctors have also come out to say that there's a lot more than "personality traits" going on here. If you ever were a parent pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to get your child's school life on track, then find a diagnosis and a plan for working it out, and it works, you wouldn't be so smug about your skepticism.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
This is an interesting thread. Our son is very bright, but his spelling is, and always has been, appalling. He was tested for dyslexia at age 7 or 8, but he's not dyslexic. At age 10 he had a spelling age of 8 and a reading age of 14. At that point we were told that a six year differential between reading and spelling age showed that he had "something." We were pretty relaxed about it, as it seemed ridiculous to label him as having a "problem" based partially on the fact that his reading age was advanced! Now that University applications are looming, I'm wondering whether he might need to clarify the issue. He can't spell for toffee, but does all his homework etc on computer and uses a spell check, so should be able to cope fine with Uni essays etc.
Have any other shipmates come across a situation where a "learning difficulty" is diagnosed partially on the child being advanced for his age? Have we failed as parents by not getting him diagnosed?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I am not sure where you're getting your assertion that children with learning difficulties are not diagnosed, oldandrew. In England, GPs (general practitioners) do not specialise in the diagnosis learning difficulties and tend to refer to CAMHS (the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service) or the local equivalent for diagnosis by a psychologist, usually an educational psychologist. Schools usually either refer to the educational psychologist or specialist advisory teachers for diagnosis.
Internal school SEN reports are most likely to state difficulties as reading or spelling age compared to chronological age or maths levels or test results of another kind when last tested and a date or chronological age for that test, or an observational comment on difficulties. Parents may say that the child has a particular diagnosis and that might be referred to in the SEN report.
Those SEN reports are double-edged swords. They are used to inform the school teaching staff and also go home to the parents, so the school, if it has any sense, is very unlikely to suggest a diagnosis unless there is a formal diagnosis from an Ed Psych or other medical professional.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
[x-post, this is to NE Quine]
It's not "being advanced" that's the issue, it's having a very wide spread on two measures of aptitude. That is usually considered to be indicative that something is going on beyond the normal range. If he was at grade level in reading and 6 years behind grade level in spelling, it would be the same. Or if a child takes a test that has a language and a math part, and the score is very widely split, it very often means something is going on.
[ 08. September 2010, 23:12: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Thanks, mousethief. Yes, I understand that it's the spread that indicates something, but the fact that part of that spread comprised "above average" meant we didn't pursue it. The school system here (state comprehensive) did the tests, but didn't come up with a diagnosis; had we wanted a diagnosis we'd have had to push. As he enjoys school, mostly, and has no behavioural problems, we couldn't see the point in pursuing it. But there's no doubt in my mind that something's wired differently with him, and I wonder if we've been too lackadaisacal?
Would it be useful to him to have a one word descriptor, rather than just "can't spell for toffee"?
[ 08. September 2010, 23:24: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
This problem has just come up in my family.
My daughter visited me this weekend with her husband and their 3½ year old son. His preschool teacher had noticed that he had far less skill in manipulating small objects than the other children. She recommended having him shape Play-Dough into little balls to develop his manipulative skills. The alarm bells went off in my head.
I was very late in developing control of the muscles in my hands and arms. All through first and second grades, I tried my best to write neatly, and failed dismally. Finally I discovered that if I pressed my wrist down on the paper and used only my hand muscles, I could write neatly. My writing was very small, but it was neat, and I thought the adults should be satisfied. They started complaining about the size of my writing, and I felt really angry. I had done my best, and it was impossible to please them.
When I was about ten I finally developed the muscle control most kids have at five. By this time I was used to my tiny writing, and I didn't want to change.
I am concerned that exercises will not help my grandson. I see it as a maturation problem that only time can fix. I don't want him to get the feeling that he is considered unsatisfactory in a situation that is beyond his control.
My daughter, the child's mother, was also late in developing muscle control, and I asked the school not to say anything to her about her handwriting. At around age ten she began to write more neatly.
My experience convinced me that adults sometimes made very unreasonable demands, and this made them somewhat untrustworthy.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
Andrew,
I am not middle class in case that is relevant and no longer a child. When I was my mum scrubbed floors to pay for extra tuition which I attended after school, my dad worked two Jobs to make ends meet and we lived on a council estate. My specific learning difficulties are in no way mild. I have an IQ gap which ranges from the top one percent of the population in some areas to levels which if they were global rather than specific measures of intelligent would make me subnormal. For want of an educational psychologist you could use the catchall terms dyslexia, dyscalculia and dyspraxia, as a rough guide to my situation. I’m also super bright by the way!
I was given a very early diagnosis. I was pickedup in primary school, I was at the bottom of the class behind in almost everything. We had a sort of show and tell were we could talk about whatever we wanted the others talked about their pets and what have you. I talked about the political ramifications of the Iran-Iraq gulf war and went on to talk about western balance of power politics in the region. I liked listening to radio four in my spare time.
In my experience coping strategies and various support helped me a great deal. I became a capable athlete despite my dyspraxia. I had a fairly successful school life going on to further higher and then postgraduate education. Far from presenting an excuse my disability pushed me to excel and surmount it. Have things changed dramatically in education? Does a diagnoses of specific learning difficulties now obviate the need for hard work and good behaviour? I see no evidence of this in the schools in which I am regularly involved in a professional capacity. Maybe it’s different in your neck of the woods.
For the most part my teachers were supportive of me. I did, however, encountered prejudice and disbelief from the occasional teacher. I normally confounded such attitudes by being such a bizarre combination of total brilliance and total spazzishness all bundled together. Oddly in my experience such wilful blindness normally comes from less able teachers. As if they were casting around for excuses in order to validate their own short comings. When one struggles to inspire, maintain discipline and teach effectively it is always easier to devote tremendous energy to looking for what is wrong with the “system” than to engage in real and sincere self evaluation. Not that I think this is the case with you of course. I’m sure your view is founded on much more solid precepts. I haven’t quite gathered what they are yet. Maybe it is my dyslexia surfacing and I have misread some very compelling and pivotal point in your posts. Living with a disability can be tiresome.
Chaz
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm going to avoid replying to oldandrew right now because my blood pressure is high enough.
To the rest of you, then--yes, I wish very much I had been diagnosed when I was still in school. Today I know that I have asthma (diagnosed early twenties) and Ehlers-Danlos hypermobility type--a genetic problem of the connective tissues that is actually quite common, but when severe leads to general klutziness, crap handwriting and multiple dislocations. Oh, and inability to play ping pong before age 25.
How did this play out for me in school? Simple. I was the only kid in my class given remedial handwriting exercises (read: copy everything seven times instead of five. It did no good at all but made me feel crap.). Now, at age 40 plus, I can FINALLY make a proper cursive r letter. Couldn't do it in my thirties. (Guess who had three r's in her maiden name?)
I was also the only kid I ever heard of who had to take remedial physical education. Which consisted of running laps on asphalt--great stuff for an asthmatic with one leg askew. Certainly this was much more adaptive than (say) being allowed to do archery like the other kids (which I might actually have done WELL at, given my issues).
Laughed at? yes. Bullied? yes. In danger of a deadly asthmatic attack? yes, yes, yes!
And since PE was mandatory through high school, I had twelve years of shame to live through. Oh the joy.
I now have a son with Ehlers-Danlos (though not asthma I think, please God). He learned to walk just a month before he turned two. Still handles knives, handwriting, etc. in a freaky way that is painful to watch but apparently works for him. Can't throw for toffee. Gets bullied. Has an IQ around 160.
The difference is, he has a mother who knows what the hell is going on with him. And so I think (I hope!) his childhood is going a little better than mine did.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Would it be useful to him to have a one word descriptor, rather than just "can't spell for toffee"?
If it were me, I'd tell him what you were told way back when, and tell him that if he wants to find out what the "something" is, he could probably get a neuropsych evaluation, and they'd likely be able to figure it out.
Figuring it out could be useful, because if you know why something is difficult, you might be able to find ways to make it easier.
But at this point, having computers and spell-check and the like, he might not think it's worth the trouble.
I'd respect his choice either way.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've been thinking about some of this lately, re myself, and am comforted by some of the posts here.
There are some kinds of motor coordination that I didn't develop until late teens or adulthood: whistling, snapping fingers, lighting matches. I've finally gotten so I can throw fairly accurately, if I pay constant, precise attention. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
My handwriting has always been difficult to read; it's somewhat better now, but I have to work consciously at it if someone unfamiliar with my handwriting has to read it. I had to do extra handwriting exercises as a kid. Angry grownups, special mechanical pencil, not fun.
PE was mostly difficult. I thought about taking an "Adaptive PE" class, but figured that would only make things worse, socially.
There's a big gap between my verbal and math abilities--though, in my case, it's due to math anxiety. I'm capable of doing math if I can keep my brain from checking out, and I like playing with some math concepts.
To make things more interesting, I've developed health problems, as an adult, that have some cognitive effects. So verbal often isn't as easy as it used to be.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I was also the only kid I ever heard of who had to take remedial physical education. Which consisted of running laps on asphalt--great stuff for an asthmatic with one leg askew.
Jay-suz, LC, that is cruel and unusual punishment!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
To be fair, it lasted only a day or two. I don't remember what happened after that, I think maybe someone got nasty with them. And I think (brain fuzz here) that it was near the end of the quarter, so they dumped me right back into ordinary PE the next quarter--which meant I got to run miles on a freshly cut grass track (next to a major highway in smoggy CA). Face turned purple, the whole bit. I have NO IDEA why the PE teacher, who was obviously worried by my wheezing, didn't do something. Maybe she didn't know what to do.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I agree that there is controversy round this area. There is, however, a considerable body of evidence of specific neurological differences. In fact as your response hints the term 'dyslexia' is something of a catch-all, so there is not one clear identifiable condition to which the term is consistently applied.
That was my point. It is ridiculous to claim that when you don't have a clear condition then you can have "a clear physiological component and neuropathology".
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Teaching Blog at: http://teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/
Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
That may be correct but without giving examples of flimsy science it's difficult to know whether you opinion is any better than another persons. Are you aware of any specific examples of Mickey Mouse science?
The sort of thing I am talking about is the mess that is the current debate over autism conditions and the DSM springs to mind.
If you want a more specific example I would ask how often teachers are told that Aspergers is "a disorder of uncertain nosological validity".
[ 09. September 2010, 05:36: Message edited by: oldandrew ]
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Teaching Blog at: http://teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/
Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
I am on the autism spectrum with specific learning difficulties, sensory processing disorder, dyspraxia etc. I'm a national adviser for autism, working with the international experts and with parents and children across the world these days. I'm not an 'expert'. I don't diagnose. But I do get to see the research first hand, which is good. And chat to a heck of a lot of people in the trade/with a vast range of disabilities of every level of severity.
For years we've had "oh these so-called disabilities are really just child X being lazy/rude/whatever". Now they're putting people into the new MRI scanners and seeing that they can diagnose using the scans. It's right there in front of them,very real indeed. Early days, but real progress at last.
Until now it's been hugely hard to get many of the diagnoses. Parents often struggle in waiting queues for year after year whilst their child makes zero progress at school because they simply can't. I was one of them. Our son is moderately dyslexic etc and for 18 months went backwards thanks to a school that refused to help him in any way because they didn't see the point.
Right diagnosis, right help, result = 9 GCSEs. And vastly improved behaviour from him. Often there really is a link. I can think of a few hundred examples where behaviour improved once the disability/special need was identified and addressed properly.
Anyway, I'm off to the hospital with him for him to have an eye operation, something else that thankfully someone diagnosed in time to make a difference (we hope).
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
I very much doubt that you are a doctor either,
Yes but I am not making claims about who is or isn't really learning disabled.
You are actually making far stronger claims than I am.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
but this is beside the point as only a tiny fraction of children who are identified as having special needs have ever been diagnosed by a doctor.
Easy to type isn't it? You have any source for it?
I am talking about my experience of the SEN system in the UK. Medical involvement is only a tiny part of the system.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Even where doctors exist who will sign off on a given condition, there is very often very little hard science behind it (the diagnositic descriptions of a lot of these conditions are prone to changing). Plenty of doctors have objected to the medicalising of personality traits.
You're tarring a lot of canvas with a very broad brush.
I am being very careful not to imply that there are no conditions out there, only that there is a problem with imagining that there is a medical or psychological explanation for all sorts of human failings.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Plenty of doctors have also come out to say that there's a lot more than "personality traits" going on here. If you ever were a parent pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to get your child's school life on track, then find a diagnosis and a plan for working it out, and it works, you wouldn't be so smug about your skepticism.
There are people out there who would swear that astrology is a useful tool for directing one's life. It doesn't make it true.
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Teaching Blog at: http://teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/
Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I am not sure where you're getting your assertion that children with learning difficulties are not diagnosed, oldandrew. In England, GPs (general practitioners) do not specialise in the diagnosis learning difficulties and tend to refer to CAMHS (the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service) or the local equivalent for diagnosis by a psychologist, usually an educational psychologist.
So just to check, you do admit that in most cases diagnosis is not by a doctor?
You do understand that this was my claim?
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Teaching Blog at: http://teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/
Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
Anyway, I'm off to the hospital with him for him to have an eye operation, something else that thankfully someone diagnosed in time to make a difference (we hope).
All prayers for that -- I find eye operations very scary.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Ehlers-Danlos hypermobility type--a genetic problem of the connective tissues that is actually quite common,
(waves to Lamb Chopped) - my kids got diagnosed with this when they were aged 6 and 4, at which point I got a diagnosis, too (aged 37!) The early diagnosis meant that we were encouraged to get our kids swimming (non weight bearing exercise) rather than anything which would strain their joints. Swimming meant they could
have E-D and still be quite fit and sporty.
More to the point; our variety of E-D means that our skin scars disproportionately. I have a little pattern of dots round my inner elbow from where I gave blood betwen the ages of 17 and 34; I'm now 46, so each blood donation has left me with a tiny permanent mark. When I was 8 I took a nose-dive over the handlebars of my bike, was taken by my parents to casualty and fixed up, but I was left badly scarred and had remedial plastic surgery on the NHS at 11. The assumption was that the doctor who had treated me in casualty had been negligent, but now of course, I realise it wasn't his fault - I just scar badly. Although scarring is a bit off topic, I wonder if there's a general principle- other people can't get blamed if you have a diagnosis of something which is inherent?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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oldandrew
Shipmate
# 11546
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Posted
Sorry, missed this bit.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Those SEN reports are double-edged swords. They are used to inform the school teaching staff and also go home to the parents, so the school, if it has any sense, is very unlikely to suggest a diagnosis unless there is a formal diagnosis from an Ed Psych or other medical professional.
Every school I've worked in has had vast numbers of kids on the SEN register coded as M (monitoring) or SA (School Action) which involves no outside professionals. There were plenty of amateur diagnoses among these (my own favourite was the efforts to label foul-mouthed kids with Tourettes made by people who couldn't even spell it).
Whether these schools had any sense is a matter of debate, but amateur diagnosis is normal practice.
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Teaching Blog at: http://teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/
Posts: 1069 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2006
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Lola
Ship's kink
# 627
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Posted
Lamb Chopped
In my view and experience, oldandrew historically posts abrasively on threads about this subject. It seems to me that the route of the argument is his perception that the effect of a diagnosis of special needs is of both parents and teachers, and based on this the child, giving up. I suppose the positive intention is that he wants to be the teacher that never gives up on a child - his proposed action for a difficulty is that both he and the child should work harder:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
The best treatment for dyslexia is the same as for any other child who can't read well - more time spent being taught to read and practising the skill.
"Coping measures" can actually be a distraction from that.
So possibly - his view may be that NEQ's kids should do extra swimming lessons to address their diagnosed condition but should not be excused PE.
Moo gives an example where this was unproductive - I think oldandrew is taking a polar opposite and arguing that telling the child not to bother practising handwriting at all would also be unproductive. Rather than a middle ground?
The trouble is, as I think Mousethief points out, is that with the number and variety of conditions under discussion the debate quickly becomes ridiculously broad and useless. Let alone the variety of kids! As an example, Mr Lola was over the moon when he was sent off on punishment laps at his British secondary school - as the new boy just moved from growing up in Africa he was really worried that running was not taken seriously enough in the UK. It seems his PE teacher was as unimaginitive as yours - only this time not spotting that he was a keen as mustard to do an extra cross country run - (shakes head in disbelief!!)
oldandrew it would help me if you could give us some specific examples of coping measures which you believe are distracting?
Posts: 951 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
I am on the autism spectrum with specific learning difficulties, sensory processing disorder, dyspraxia etc. I'm a national adviser for autism, working with the international experts and with parents and children across the world these days. I'm not an 'expert'. I don't diagnose. But I do get to see the research first hand, which is good. And chat to a heck of a lot of people in the trade/with a vast range of disabilities of every level of severity.
Most of these neurological conditions are on spectrums (spectra?)
My son has ADHD (it is highly heriditable and it was after his diagnosis that I woke up to mine and went for diagnosis.)
His ADHD wasn't picked up until his first year of university. This is quite common in the UK - especially if the child's behaviour isn't an issue. High school teachers here are often loathe to refer and Educational psychologists are snowed under with children who have behavioural difficulties.
We employed an ADHD coach for him and he hasn't looked back since. He's incredibly intelligent and always managed to 'fill the gaps' at school. But there were gaps - we got him a maths tutor during his A levels as he had huge gaps in his knowledge. He passed maths and further maths with A*s.
He now has an MSc in Ecology and teaches English in Germany to high powered IT professionals. He speaks fluent German and has earned enough to buy a flat in Heidelberg.
With many of these SpLDs it isn't as much the learning differences as the organisational problems which can be the real struggle.(I MUCH prefer the term 'differences' - we learn fine, just in different ways which often don't suit typical classrooms)
I now coach adults with ADHD in my spare time all of whom were not diagnosed until they got to university.
Many of the coping strategies I teach came from my Dad. He dealt with our family trait wonderfully - with no knowledge of it whatever. But when I told him of our discovery he was positive, encouraging and understanding - as always. He, before he died, believed 'The younger the better' for picking up SpLDs - as I do.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Thanks, mousethief. Yes, I understand that it's the spread that indicates something, but the fact that part of that spread comprised "above average" meant we didn't pursue it. The school system here (state comprehensive) did the tests, but didn't come up with a diagnosis; had we wanted a diagnosis we'd have had to push. As he enjoys school, mostly, and has no behavioural problems, we couldn't see the point in pursuing it. But there's no doubt in my mind that something's wired differently with him, and I wonder if we've been too lackadaisacal?
Would it be useful to him to have a one word descriptor, rather than just "can't spell for toffee"?
As parents we do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time.
I have been a keen reader from an early age - but have quite severe dyslexia which affects my spelling and organisational skills.
Often good readers who are, nevertheless, dyslexic have a huge visual 'sight' vocabulary but poor phonological processing.
It doesn't matter what age they start - a good structured, cumulative, multisensory language programme will help them to make great progress in spelling.
One of my case studies last year (age 10) went from level 2a to level 4a due to an excellent multisensory programme (which, in turn, raised his self esteem immeasurably)
It never goes away completely - I don't think I'll ever know whether it's 'Mousetheif' of 'Mousethief' without checking!
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
The best treatment for dyslexia is the same as for any other child who can't read well - more time spent being taught to read and practising the skill.
"Coping measures" can actually be a distraction from that.
I don't know what kind of "coping measures" would distract from extra teaching time, but the fact is that here in Canada and in at least some places in the US (don't know about the situation in the UK), that extra teaching time you say the dyslexic child needs, is exactly the kind of intervention you CANNOT get without a diagnosis of some kind of learning disability. The resources are not there for teachers to simply decide "I'm going to spend an extra two hours a day teaching Johnny to read and write because he has difficulty with it," but if Johnny can get diagnosed with dyslexia, he MAY be able to get the services of a special needs teacher for a couple of hours a day to get that help. Without the diagnosis, he's got no chance of getting that help.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
OldAndrew - You seem to be informed to some extent but your opinions are BS of a substantial hue.
quote:
OldAndrew offered the following arrogant nonsense:
A good school will concentrate on teaching not labelling students with "needs" that probably don't exist. Unless your child has severe problems (i.e. something that even in less enlightened eras would have been seen as disability not a personality trait) steer clear of the SEN racket. It is about medicalising normal variations in character and ability as an excuse for bureacracy, pseudo-science and appeasement.
Of course school special needs registers have grades that don't involve outside intervention. The school is a likely place for a range of special needs to emerge. Both neurological and the simple need for extra help. Surely noting a phenomenon, registering and monitoring is Good Science (TM). How are you going to identify "severe" issues unless you actually look for them?
In my own direct experience, it was the schools failure to observe and respond to a child's difficulties in a class situation that precipitated a crisis.
You are correct that 1-1 support is often ineffective. Education Authority provision is often in the form of an untrained teaching assistant, usually trying their best but having to make it up as they go. A failure of application rather than the whole approach.
Your contention that the medical profession is not involved is also wrong. Anything funded by the education authority will go via a panel including educational psychologists and peadiatricians. These professions have continued involvement in most cases.
Have people manipulated the system to excuse the behaviour of their child? Yes I have seen that. I have also known of healthy people signing themselves off sick. Does abuse undermine the whole picture? Of course not.
A Good School (TM) needs to do its best to educate each child according to that child's abilities and constraints rather than ignore a significant component of some children's lived reality. I will not return to the 1950's attitudes that scarred members of my family and community.
I would recommend a sabatical from your ivory tower spent learning at first hand the realities of Special Educational Needs.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
The best treatment for dyslexia is the same as for any other child who can't read well - more time spent being taught to read and practising the skill.
"Coping measures" can actually be a distraction from that.
I don't know what kind of "coping measures" would distract from extra teaching time, but the fact is that here in Canada and in at least some places in the US (don't know about the situation in the UK), that extra teaching time you say the dyslexic child needs, is exactly the kind of intervention you CANNOT get without a diagnosis of some kind of learning disability. The resources are not there for teachers to simply decide "I'm going to spend an extra two hours a day teaching Johnny to read and write because he has difficulty with it," but if Johnny can get diagnosed with dyslexia, he MAY be able to get the services of a special needs teacher for a couple of hours a day to get that help. Without the diagnosis, he's got no chance of getting that help.
This is true in the UK too, except that - even with a diagnosis there is very little specialist help out there.
One excellent initiative by the BDA (British Dyslexia Association) is to encourage
dyslexia friendly classrooms - a great initiative which is beginning to bring positive results. A lot can be done by the class teacher to help dyslexic pupils, of all abilities, to access the curriculum. These measures also help, to some extent, to mitigate self esteem issues which often arise as a result of SpLDs.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Ehlers-Danlos hypermobility type--a genetic problem of the connective tissues that is actually quite common,
(waves to Lamb Chopped) - my kids got diagnosed with this when they were aged 6 and 4, at which point I got a diagnosis, too (aged 37!) The early diagnosis meant that we were encouraged to get our kids swimming (non weight bearing exercise) rather than anything which would strain their joints. Swimming meant they could
have E-D and still be quite fit and sporty.
More to the point; our variety of E-D means that our skin scars disproportionately. I have a little pattern of dots round my inner elbow from where I gave blood betwen the ages of 17 and 34; I'm now 46, so each blood donation has left me with a tiny permanent mark. When I was 8 I took a nose-dive over the handlebars of my bike, was taken by my parents to casualty and fixed up, but I was left badly scarred and had remedial plastic surgery on the NHS at 11. The assumption was that the doctor who had treated me in casualty had been negligent, but now of course, I realise it wasn't his fault - I just scar badly. Although scarring is a bit off topic, I wonder if there's a general principle- other people can't get blamed if you have a diagnosis of something which is inherent?
Yes, it was when my son wouldn't walk that I got diagnosed (it being rather difficult to diagnose the typical infant!). But it's autosomal dominant so they knew that if they had me, they likely had him too.
And I'm a great swimmer. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) My only sport, besides sex.
I didn't know about the scarring thing. I have a permanent rash (keratitis pilaris) so put down all my skin problems to that. But it makes sense! And you've explained the myriad puncture marks on the inside of my elbow and on the back of my hand--I've been a blood / platelet donor for years. The scars are quite handy, no one ever has to hunt for a vein anymore.
The positive side of this diagnosis is that those who get it in moderation (like the rest of my family) get compliments on their flexibility and lovely skin. My grandmother was very proud of her doctor's compliments on what she could do at age 90. We should have been contortionists.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The thing with diagnosing learning disorders, though, is getting everyone in the child's life -- parents/caregivers, teachers, other adults in authority -- to understand and buy into the strategies for dealing with these problems.
In our church we have a family consisting of a grandma raising the three children of her crackhead, absentee daughter. Now, these kids have issues that have as much to do with their brain chemistry as their early childhood experiences with Crackhead Egg and Sperm Donors; Lord knows what biological damage was done to them in utero.
They've been diagnosed with ADD/AHD and various other issues through the schools and social-service system. But their grandmother uses those diagnoses as an excuse for not proactively parenting them, for not teaching them how to behave in public, etc.: "Well, that's just how they are [those poor, afflicted children]."
This situation frustates my partner and me, not only because we don't think that Grandma (who may simply be overwhelmed by this unforseen responsibility in midlife) is doing these kids any favors in the long run, but also because my partner has a rapport with the children and is able to get them to focus and exercise self-control in church in ways that Grandma can't or won't.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by oldandrew:
Whether these schools had any sense is a matter of debate, but amateur diagnosis is normal practice.
Yes, amateur diagnoses do more harm than good. But, as we have seen, the solution to amateur, inaccurate diagnoses is not no diagnoses (which simply leads to less formal, even less informed, unwritten amateur diagnoses). The solution to amateur, inaccurate diagnoses is professional, qualified, accurate diagnosis.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by amber.:
Anyway, I'm off to the hospital with him for him to have an eye operation, something else that thankfully someone diagnosed in time to make a difference (we hope).
What sort of operation? My son had surgery on his weakened eye muscles at age 6 (after literally years of haggling w/ US insurance co.). The surgery was difficult for him, but the results have been momentous. Four years later he is close to being corrected to 20/20. A hard road, but well worth it. Praying for your son.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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