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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is There Anything Which We Can Or Should Do About Islamism?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
In a recent thread there seemed to emerge a rough consensus on the heterogeneity of Islam and the impossibility of blanket judgments of it, but the unacceptable nature of some of its manifestations, both in the West and in Muslim-majority countries.
We get upset about reports of Christians or other non-Muslims being killed, or about women enduring appalling punishments, and feel that we, or our governments, should respond in some way
So what should our attitude be toward “bad” Islam, which I shall for the sake of convenience call Islamism, a term embracing terrorism; intolerance and persecution of other religions; inequality and mistreatment of women; imposition of sharia law; and opposition to democracy and liberalism (freedom of expression, association, etc)?
The choices as I see them include:-
1. There is no point in ordinary people such as ourselves holding or propagating any opinion about it, because there is nothing we can do about except direct our votes in our own countries’ elections to the parties with the best policy on the matter( which brings us back to the question of what is the best policy).
2. The West, past and present, including its Christianity, is so irredeemably wicked that we have forfeited any right to make any judgment about any other system or culture, including Islamism.
3. Radical cultural relativism. No system is any better or worse than any other, and if Islamists do things differently from the way we do, then that is their business and none of ours, and it is arrogant for us to think otherwise.
4. Patience. Eventually everyone, including Islamists, will come around to seeing that liberal, pluralist democracy and some sort of market economy is best, but they have to come to that decision for themselves, and though it might take decades or centuries, there is nothing we can do to hurry up the process, and it is always counterproductive if we try.
5. Respect for democracy. Muslims, given the opportunity, sometimes give the majority vote to (what seem to us) repressive and illiberal parties, as seems to be happening as an outcome of the so-called Arab Spring.
6. Military intervention. It is possible that the governments in Iraq and Afghanistan will survive, and evolve into something viable and acceptable (just as the Seoul regime in South Korea, originally scarcely better than communism in the North, emerged eventually as a liberal and prosperous democracy), but that looks very unlikely at the moment.
7. Just face the fact that horrible things go on under Islamist regimes, but take the attitude that they are none of the West’s business, and all that Western countries can do is protect themselves through measures such as screening of immigrants and airline security, and let the Islamist countries go to hell in a handbasket.
8. As far as possible, maintain friendly relations with Islamist regimes, both for our own benefit (eg oil) and in order to exert discreet pressure for incremental human rights improvements.
9.Write to or email offending governments, or support human rights advocacy groups which are doing so.
I am aware, of course, that human rights abuses, and questions of how to respond to them, are not confined to Islamism, but let's try to stick to that for the purposes of this discussion.
[ 20. September 2012, 13:34: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I am aware, of course, that human rights abuses, and questions of how to respond to them, are not confined to Islamism, but let's try to stick to that for the purposes of this discussion.
Why?
That's the bottom line issue.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
The better question would be:
What should we do about human rights abuses?
But you're not really interested in the truth are you?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
Posts: 427 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2011
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The better question would be:
What should we do about human rights abuses?
But you're not really interested in the truth are you?
Bingo. Sadly, we respond unevenly to human rights abuses in various countries because we don't want to offend those who we benefit from economically (think oil or cheap products) and label those that we don't like or get anything from as an evil that needs to be dealt with. As for military solutions, I've think we've made a royal mess with our interventions and elections in those countries haven't gone the way we'd like, in some respects it's made situations worse or just the same as before we meddled.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Is There Anything Which We Can Or Should Do About Islamism?
No.
Until we can sort out those in our own society that would resort to violent means to sort things out we can't really be trusted to sort out someone else's society.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
Doesn't that make the Western abandonment of faith the main issue? If that is so we should be confront atheism rather than Islam. Heck there are more atheists than Muslims, in the West at any rate.
btw, confronting human rights abuses and terrorism is another issue entirely. Unless you have located the Atheist Liberation Front.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Is There Anything Which We Can Or Should Do About Islamism?
No.
Until we can sort out those in our own society that would resort to violent means to sort things out we can't really be trusted to sort out someone else's society.
What about violent Islamists actually in our own society, then?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
You mean the ones already under house arrest?
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
Doesn't that make the Western abandonment of faith the main issue? If that is so we should be confront atheism rather than Islam. Heck there are more atheists than Muslims, in the West at any rate.
btw, confronting human rights abuses and terrorism is another issue entirely. Unless you have located the Atheist Liberation Front.
Huh? What did I do now?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
Doesn't that make the Western abandonment of faith the main issue?
Yes, that's right. quote:
If that is so we should be confront atheism rather than Islam. Heck there are more atheists than Muslims, in the West at any rate.
Yes, that's right. It is the fruits of Western Atheism that gives Islamism the moral high ground in certain areas. They, of course, point the finger at Christianity for the ills of Western civilisation, but the reality is that western secularism and the concomitant abandonment of biblical morality is what gives Islamism the majority of its ammunition.
[ 16. April 2012, 12:35: Message edited by: Daron ]
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
Posts: 427 | From: London | Registered: Jul 2011
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God.
Ah, yes. "Christ is the answer. Now, what's the question..."
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Kaplan
quote:
So what should our attitude be toward “bad” Islam, which I shall for the sake of convenience call Islamism.
I'm aware that in the UK there are already systems in place to monitor nascent terrorist networks. There are charities and organisations set up to target things such as forced marriages and to reduce honour killings. Authorities have tried to work with imams, providing professional training. There are also some Muslim youthworkers who work with youngsters who are at risk being radicalised. The work is made harder by the high unemployment rates for young people in these areas; attacking low educational achievement and improving job prospects therefore goes hand in hand with giving young Muslims a greater investment in society.
Churches in areas with large Muslim populations need to develop interfaith networks. This doesn't have to require people talking about religion (although it can be) but working together to provide assistance to the community, as necessary.
An Anglican church not far from me works with Muslims in the local community forum to keep a food bank for people in crisis. This isn't about telling Muslims what to do, but getting to know people. Taking a different tack, a Baptist church I know has a mission to the local Muslim Yemeni population, and runs social and educational events aimed at this community. The church even hired an Arabic-speaker as their pastor! Evangelism is their focus, and they seem to have developed this work without causing any antagonism so far.
When we know each other there's less mistrust, more openness. People can learn to respect each other.
No doubt, much more could be done, at national, local and community level. I do fear that some local initiatives will be at risk of losing much of their funding in these times of financial difficulty.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Oh, and I've just read a review of a new popular history book that looks at the early history of Islam. We could all do with learning more about Islam, I suspect. The book: Tom Holland, 'In the Shadow of the Sword'.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Daron
Shipmate
# 16507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God.
Ah, yes. "Christ is the answer. Now, what's the question..."
A perfectly reasonable approach which appears increasingly more reasonable as one's knowledge of Christ increases.
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Each strand of sorrow has a place, within this tapestry of grace
So through the trials I choose to say, Your perfect will in your perfect way
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
We don't. Christ in us does.
@ Balaam - I assume you think then that all would-be Islamist terrorists are under lock and key, yes? Fine, if you're right, nothing to worry about then.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
@ Balaam - I assume you think then that all would-be Islamist terrorists are under lock and key, yes? Fine, if you're right, nothing to worry about then.
I guess this is a pond difference. We are good enough at terrorizing ourselves that those poor slub Islamists get lost in the noise around here...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The better question would be:
What should we do about human rights abuses?
Is there, or should there be, a distinction between "utilitarian" human rights abuses and "ideological" human rights abuses, though? Or would you argue that all abuses are ultimately carried out to achieve an end and the ideology attached to them is simply aimed at making them more palatable to the majority?
I should add that, in my attempt to categorise, Islamism would fall within the ideological camp, but there'd be lots of others in there as well.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
Yes there is something we can do about Islamism. Treat Muslims the same way we do Christians.
And then we can start by taking beams out of our own eyes. If we want to talk about the unacceptable nature of some of its manifestations, let's start with the majority local religions. We have far more of a responsibility to control the actions of our own country than those that take place in other countries.
If you are worried about people getting killed for arbitrary reasons, both sides of the Atlantic are engaged in a war in Iraq and one in Afghanistan.
Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. Not that I've any objection to chucking rocks if that's what it takes.
Why single out "Islamism"? At a personal level, Christians worry me a lot more. As far as I know almost all the recent terrorism in my country has been the responsibility of either Catholic or Protestant groups. (And before someone mentions that neither the IRA nor the UVF have much to do with Christianity, that's part of the point).
So what should our attitude be toward “bad” Christianity, which I shall for the sake of convenience call Christianism, a term embracing terrorism; intolerance and mistreatment of gay people; intolerance and persecution of other religions; inequality and mistreatment of women; and opposition to democracy and liberalism (freedom of expression, association, etc)?
I see Islamism as no different to Christianism. Except that only one is a direct threat to people I care about at a personal level.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
...intolerance and mistreatment of gay people...
I see Islamism as no different to Christianism. Except that only one is a direct threat to people I care about at a personal level.
Well there's a world of difference between a society that is debating whether the word "marriage" should be applied to gay partnerships and a society that punishes homosexuality with the death penalty.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I should add that I take your point entirely about beams in Christianity's eye.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
It is the fruits of Western Atheism that gives Islamism the moral high ground in certain areas. They, of course, point the finger at Christianity for the ills of Western civilisation, but the reality is that western secularism and the concomitant abandonment of biblical morality is what gives Islamism the majority of its ammunition.
What the hell are you talking about? Are you claiming that people in countries thousands of miles away are oppressing other people because there are so many atheists in this country? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
And if you're suggesting that "bring back biblical morality" is the answer, does that mean you think the best way to prevent people from being oppressed in countries thousands of miles away is to start oppressing people in this country? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
Doesn't that make the Western abandonment of faith the main issue? If that is so we should be confront atheism rather than Islam. Heck there are more atheists than Muslims, in the West at any rate.
No because in the West we have freedom to choose to be athiest, Christian or Muslim. In many Islam-dominated countries Christians are persecuted, and Muslims who convert to Christianity are ostracised, attacked, arrested, tortured, killed.
IMO the main issue should be to work to protect those of our brothers who are being attacked, rather than complaining that our countrymen, with their free choice, choose not to be saved. And the change we should be aiming for in any other country is to allow freedom of religion, so those Muslims who are convicted by Christ of their sin are free to repent and follow Christ rather than being too terrified to admit their faith, or killed when they do.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I thought what gave Islamism the moral high ground in certain areas was the fact that we keep invading their countries.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
Ah yes, good old "the only workable solution is to make sure that everyone has adheres to my religion"! An evergreen standard among certain flavors of Christians, though also very popular with Islamists as well.
What exactly is to be done to the people of "the West" who don't have an "understanding of [your] God"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The better question would be:
What should we do about human rights abuses?
Is there, or should there be, a distinction between "utilitarian" human rights abuses and "ideological" human rights abuses, though? Or would you argue that all abuses are ultimately carried out to achieve an end and the ideology attached to them is simply aimed at making them more palatable to the majority?
I should add that, in my attempt to categorise, Islamism would fall within the ideological camp, but there'd be lots of others in there as well.
I'm afraid I don't understand your question Erroneous Monk.
Are you asking what kinds of human rights abuses we should be worried about?
What do you mean by utilitarian?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Frankly, the best thing we could with 'bad' Islam is give as much support as possible to 'good' Islam while it fights the 'bad' kind.
Which we occasionally manage. But I still have strong impressions from a documentary I saw many years ago (quite possibly even before September 11), where the Prime Minister of the Comoros was lamenting the fact that his government couldn't get the aid necessary to make the moderate, government-funded schools compete with the rich schools set up by radicals, funded with money from Saudi Arabia, who attracted the best and brightest in his country.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
Originaly posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
I thought what gave Islamism the moral high ground in certain areas was the fact that we keep invading their countries.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
No because in the West we have freedom to choose to be athiest, Christian or Muslim. In many Islam-dominated countries Christians are persecuted, and Muslims who convert to Christianity are ostracised, attacked, arrested, tortured, killed.
Fred Clark of Slacktivist made the argument (his site is currently down or I'd provide a link) that one of the reasons we see religious extremism prosper in certain regions is a consequence of lack of legal protections for religious minorities. When the state can establish an "official" religion it means that, unless the state picks your religion, your 'right' to worship only exists at the suffrance of the state. As such, any change of government may very well remove (or allow) your ability to worship your god. This dynamic raises the stakes of any political action to a great degree.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Frankly, the best thing we could with 'bad' Islam is give as much support as possible to 'good' Islam while it fights the 'bad' kind.
Good Islam being the Islam that doesn't opress women, gays and people who want to change religion yes?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Frankly, the best thing we could with 'bad' Islam is give as much support as possible to 'good' Islam while it fights the 'bad' kind.
Good Islam being the Islam that doesn't opress women, gays and people who want to change religion yes?
No, no! "Good" Islam is the Islam that keeps the oil flowing, even if it has to break some heads (and 'disappear' some dissidents) to do so. It's still a complete mystery as to why Muslims object so strongly to Western support of "good Islam".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The better question would be:
What should we do about human rights abuses?
Is there, or should there be, a distinction between "utilitarian" human rights abuses and "ideological" human rights abuses, though? Or would you argue that all abuses are ultimately carried out to achieve an end and the ideology attached to them is simply aimed at making them more palatable to the majority?
I should add that, in my attempt to categorise, Islamism would fall within the ideological camp, but there'd be lots of others in there as well.
I'm afraid I don't understand your question Erroneous Monk.
Are you asking what kinds of human rights abuses we should be worried about?
What do you mean by utilitarian?
No. I'm saying is there a qualitative difference between abusing someone's human rights for a purpose (for example, giving a minority group fewer rights than majority group because it enriches the majority economically) and abusing someone's human rights for ideological reasons (giving a minority group fewer rights than majority because the majority believe that the minority are inherently less entitled to those rights for whatever reason)?
Or should we be concerned *only* about the end result - that someone's human rights are taken away?
I think it's a relevant question because if human rights abuses stem from or are exacerbated by a root cause, tackling that cause may lessen the abuse. But if the abuse stems from an ideology, then that seems less likely to happen.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
The bottom line issue is always the nature of God. All other issues of truth and justice proceed from that bottom line. As the West abandons its understanding of God as he has chosen to reveal himself in Scripture it becomes increasingly incapable of discerning the source of the fundamental inadequacies of Islamic ideology.
Doesn't that make the Western abandonment of faith the main issue? If that is so we should be confront atheism rather than Islam. Heck there are more atheists than Muslims, in the West at any rate.
No because in the West we have freedom to choose to be athiest, Christian or Muslim. In many Islam-dominated countries Christians are persecuted, and Muslims who convert to Christianity are ostracised, attacked, arrested, tortured, killed.
IMO the main issue should be to work to protect those of our brothers who are being attacked, rather than complaining that our countrymen, with their free choice, choose not to be saved. And the change we should be aiming for in any other country is to allow freedom of religion, so those Muslims who are convicted by Christ of their sin are free to repent and follow Christ rather than being too terrified to admit their faith, or killed when they do.
ISTM that you are arguing for intervening in other countries before sorting out our own. Christians have been persecuted in China for decades, possibly centuries; Are you going to let them suffer because China isn't Islamic?
Then again your concept of brotherhood probably differs from mine.
No wonder the world's in a mess.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
No. I'm saying is there a qualitative difference between abusing someone's human rights for a purpose (for example, giving a minority group fewer rights than majority group because it enriches the majority economically) and abusing someone's human rights for ideological reasons (giving a minority group fewer rights than majority because the majority believe that the minority are inherently less entitled to those rights for whatever reason)?
...
No. If making money is more important than respecting human rights, that's already an ideology in itself. OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Daron:
They, of course, point the finger at Christianity for the ills of Western civilisation, but the reality is that western secularism and the concomitant abandonment of biblical morality is what gives Islamism the majority of its ammunition.
It couldn't be that for the better part of 100 years we (the West) have supported brutal secularist dictators who murder their citizens in cold blood but keep the oil flowing?
You really think that what *motivates* a villager in Yemen to pledge jihad against America is the skimpyness of bikinis in Miami Beach and the latest episode of Jersey Shore?
/granted that some of our popular entertainments make for good anti-Western propaganda.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've been through discussions like this one elsewhere. My thinking has become a little broader.
The answer that there are just as many violent and terroristic Christians and Moslems requires comparison of different forms of violence that may not quite equate, i.e., economic disparity encouraged by western nominally Christian countries that creates poverty, no opportunities and hopes for the future, as the western countries either have alienated the local government which encourages terrorism, or is allied with the government which is exploiting their own people. Thereby creating justification for terror.
The key is how to have people in Moslem countries where terrorism ideals are idealised acquire some semblance of hope, such that radicalizable young people will have less to be angry about, as a proxy for those they see as victimized by western (Christian) nations who say kind and democratic things and do cruel, exploitive and violent things. It is worse when these young people immigrate, because they have experience of the extremes in comparison.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
You really think that what *motivates* a villager in Yemen to pledge jihad against America is the skimpyness of bikinis in Miami Beach and the latest episode of Jersey Shore?
Well, I could be convinced to sign up to wage jihad against Jersey Shore...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
You really think that what *motivates* a villager in Yemen to pledge jihad against America is the skimpyness of bikinis in Miami Beach and the latest episode of Jersey Shore?
Well, I could be convinced to sign up to wage jihad against Jersey Shore...
--Tom Clune
If only the West and the Islamic World could set aside their difference and focus on the common enemy...
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
If only the West and the Islamic World could set aside their difference and focus on the common enemy...
Which is?
I think it is the rich corporate structure we formerly called the military-industrial complex, which creates poverty and lack of hope everywhere. makes me think that the poor in western countries may find themselves agreeing with the Islamic terrorists. I have an awful thought just now along the lines of Marilyn Manson: Bin Laden McViegh.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
If only the West and the Islamic World could set aside their difference and focus on the common enemy...
Which is?
I think it is the rich corporate structure we formerly called the military-industrial complex, which creates poverty and lack of hope everywhere. makes me think that the poor in western countries may find themselves agreeing with the Islamic terrorists. I have an awful thought just now along the lines of Marilyn Manson: Bin Laden McViegh.
No_prophet, you've taken a beautiful joke and turned it into something ugly. I'm appalled!
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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BalddudePeekskill
Shipmate
# 12152
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Posted
quote:
Article 18.
•Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Doesn't this cover the question? Islam most certainly doesn't allow conversion. Apostasy is punishable by death. No whitewashing it. I'm not saying that the nice average muslim family down the street from me (and they are indeed nice) would go out and kill their cousin who became a Christian, but like it or not, the Koran mandates death for apostasy from Islam. Plain and Simple.
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Christos Aneste
Posts: 308 | From: Peekskill, NY | Registered: Dec 2006
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Remarks on the O.P.'s ideas:
Choice no. 1 is illogical for reasons you point out. Probably you mention it only lest someone out there actually hold the position.
Choice no. 2: No, I don't have much time for intellectual spoiled brats chopping off the branch on which they sit. It is quite in order vigilantly to criticize specific national policies or harmful cultural trends. But without Western values and achievements, what are the odds that one would have either the time or the opportunity to think these thoughts, let alone the freedom to express them?
Choice no. 3: In other words, admit an irrefutable logic in someone's telling you: "When you are in power, you let me speak because that is your way. When I'm in power, I will not let you speak, because that is my way." I refuse for reasons of self-defense.
Choice no. 4: This is to some extent an insult to Islam, because it assumes that the recent conflicts are more inherent than they are. In the past, Muslims and westerners have sometimes coexisted nicely. Patience is justified when conditions are improving. But are they now? We have more trouble with hostile movements attributed (correctly or not) to Islam than we did a generation ago, not less. Furthermore, the observation "Once an Islamic country, always an Islamic country" has very few exceptions. Aren't they the ones who can afford to be patient?
Choice no. 5: Yes, but what does this mean? We may need to allow democracy to self-destruct in other countries; but we have a responsibility to preserve it in our own and a right to make decisions accordingly. This may require refusing admission to a group that either has a history of not assimilating or holds an undemocratic article of faith with evident sincerity. In the U.S., we expect assimilation, and by and large we get it. We should welcome and open our hearts to Muslim immigrants who wish to embrace our secular and free political principles, while alert to the possibility of failures outweighing success stories. Respect for soverign national borders is a two-way street. Must we fear for our lives because foreigners object to cartoons in our newspapers? Per the principle of national sovereignty, there is only so much an American can say to European countries whose standard with immigrants is not assimilation but pillarization, other than warning. I wouldn't want them to be among those democracies that self-destruct because of Trojan horses.
Choice no. 6: In the debate Hitchens v. Hitchens that I watched Friday evening, Peter asked Christopher, once you start intervening, where do you stop? Christopher replied that we should intervene only when a country has violated one or more taboos formally defined and internationally accepted. He mentioned four, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq violated all four. Intervention in Iraq might have been undertaken for some unworthy or spurious reasons, have been practically ill-advised and mismanaged, and may well fail. But it is hard to argue that it was unjustified. It is easier to argue that it was long overdue.
Choice no. 7: This is basically my position insofar as it is feasible. Would that we could just let them go to hell in a handbasket. Unfortunately, we can't as long as we are addicted to oil.
Choice no. 8: This is what we've bent over backwards to do with China. Time will tell how well it works.
Choice no. 9: Probably a waste of time and a pathetic illusion-- in George Smiley's words, jumping up and down and calling it progress.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Choice no. 6: In the debate Hitchens v. Hitchens that I watched Friday evening, Peter asked Christopher, once you start intervening, where do you stop? Christopher replied that we should intervene only when a country has violated one or more taboos formally defined and internationally accepted. He mentioned four, and Saddam Hussein's Iraq violated all four. Intervention in Iraq might have been undertaken for some unworthy or spurious reasons, have been practically ill-advised and mismanaged, and may well fail. But it is hard to argue that it was unjustified. It is easier to argue that it was long overdue.
I think it's even harder to argue that the current Iraqi state is an exemplar of liberal democracy and religious toleration. If invading Iraq was supposed to be a check on Islamism, replacing the Hussein regime with an Iranian client state counts as a resounding failure.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Has Christianity, apart from in Paul's day, ever spread by leaving cultures alone while being Christ to them ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I am aware, of course, that human rights abuses, and questions of how to respond to them, are not confined to Islamism, but let's try to stick to that for the purposes of this discussion.
Why?
That's the bottom line issue.
My answer to your question: Because Islamism, if not Islam, is an ideology to which millions subscribe all over the world. When an abuser of human rights appeals to it, we have a problem that does not apply to those who abuse them for self-aggrandizement.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I'm not sure many in the West understand the religion of Islam really well and therefore are able to understand the various deviations from it conveniently labelled as 'Islamicism', for which btw, there is no word in Arabic or other languages of the Muslim world.
The situation of the average citizen in Cairo, Damascus and Kabul is not good. In fact it's downright lousy.
Men of blood, such as the late Osama bin Laden, with their dreams of a revived Caliphate, led by, guess who: them are a symptom of the deep do-do the Islamic world imho is in. Their ideas and actions have been denounced and are abhorred by knowledgeable Muslims who are not in the pay of anyone and whose strings no one appears to be pulling.
Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, Syria etc. are corrupt autocratic embezzling states.
I think the average person there - if he or she dared to speak - would say what they want is a modicum of respect; freedom from fear of the security services and an opportunity to make a decent livelihood in a situation where most money is skimmed off by a corrupt elite. Give them half a chance to gain those and I think they'd metaphorically tell the 'Islamicists' to disappear into their own Khyber Passes.
Regarding those unfortunates who murder the innocent in Western cities such as Toulouse I suspect we have a lot to do in addressing and countering the pernicious propaganda and manipulation that makes them so behave.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Fred Clark of Slacktivist made the argument (his site is currently down or I'd provide a link) that one of the reasons we see religious extremism prosper in certain regions is a consequence of lack of legal protections for religious minorities. When the state can establish an "official" religion it means that, unless the state picks your religion, your 'right' to worship only exists at the suffrance of the state.
China has no official religion. Nor does Syria or North Korea.
On the other hand England, Scotland, Denmark, Norway and Costa Rica do.
So whatever makes a government intolerant of religion it doesn't seem to be having one of their won.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Frankly, the best thing we could with 'bad' Islam is give as much support as possible to 'good' Islam while it fights the 'bad' kind.
Good Islam being the Islam that doesn't opress women, gays and people who want to change religion yes?
There was a reason for putting those terms in quotes, buying into the premise of the OP without necessarily agreeing it was so simple to identify those nasty, nasty Islamists.
Frankly I'd settle for 'bad' Islam equalling the kind that encouraged terrorist attacks. Mind you, having spent a highly instructive afternoon with Professor Robert Pape a few years back, I'm aware that bad Islam looks remarkably like bad Christianity and bad Hinduism and bad atheism when it comes to inspiring suicide bombers.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BalddudeCrompond:
... the Koran mandates death for apostasy from Islam. Plain and Simple.
And the Bible mandates death for witches, astrologers, homosexuals, and children who disobey their parents. Your point? OliviaG
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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