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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Why Aren't You A Muslim?
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Jason™
Host emeritus
# 9037
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Posted
A few months ago there was a very active thread ("Atheists: Why don't you believe in God?" -- it apparently does not exist anymore) here on the Ship that challenged atheists to defend their disbelief in God. The argument was that believers shouldn't always have to bear the burden of proof (a point to which I finally conceded). Disbelievers should be able to explain their reasonings for not believing in the existence of God.
So, how about it people? Why not a Muslim (or a Buddhist for that matter?)
The question breaks down into two parts:
1. Eastern religions coexist with some degree of ease. It would not be strange for someone from Japan to be Buddhist AND Shinto while maybe even borrowing from Hinduism. Why are Western religions dependent on exclusive truth?
2. If you try to pin down religious preference to its single greatest causal factor, you would have to say it would be "place of birth." Does that limit the importance of "choosing the right religion," since you will most likely stick within the religious traditions of your culture and you cannot possibly help where you were born?
Okay, now prove me wrong (and an idiot). ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-Digory
[edited thread title for archiving]
[ 10. January 2006, 04:45: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 4123 | From: Land of Mary | Registered: Feb 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
1. Eastern religions coexist with some degree of ease. It would not be strange for someone from Japan to be Buddhist AND Shinto while maybe even borrowing from Hinduism. Why are Western religions dependent on exclusive truth?
Are Judaism and Islam "western" religions? Is any religion purely western? Christianity was originally an eastern religion, and the Orthodox churches in the east aren't western.
I think it's the monotheistic religions that are exclusive, and it's in their nature -- if you're insisting that there is one God, you can't very well also practice a religion that says there are many gods or no god at all.
quote:
2. If you try to pin down religious preference to its single greatest causal factor, you would have to say it would be "place of birth." Does that limit the importance of "choosing the right religion," since you will most likely stick within the religious traditions of your culture and you cannot possibly help where you were born?
Place of birth is certainly the greatest causal factor in my being a Christian, and I was quite aware of that when I returned to Christianity after earlier deciding that I needed some kind of religion. I already knew the stories and a lot of the doctrine and concepts, so returning to Christianity meant I didn't have to learn a whole lot of new material intellectually; I could just focus on my woeful lack of spiritual development. And Christianity is embedded in my culture; I figured if it didn't work out I could try another religion next, but that it would be a lot less weird if I could have the religion that helped shape the worldview of the culture I live in.
To me choosing "the right religion" is a matter of choosing the religion that helps one seek God. Others' mileage will vary, naturally, but when I made what was a very conscious choice, I felt strongly that it was far more important that I get going on some path toward God rather than spend a lot of time figuring out which was the "right" one, and choosing the path immediately before me was the obvious thing to do.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
I'm not a muslim for many reasons.
1) Mohammad's nine-year-old wife, I would rather model and look up to Jesus who loved outcasts
2) scriptures confusing (koran, surahs)
3) I like Jesus better than Allah
4) I don't like getting up early to pray
5) don't like rituals (praying 5 x times a day, getting up early to go the Mosque)
6) don't like the whole Male is Superior thingy and segregation @ the mosque
7) my sins aren't forgiven
But I do have buddhist leanings and the four nobel truths are awesome.
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
Prof Kirke, as always you ask an insightful question. However, to me, you have not expressed your own view clearly. In order to address your pertinent questions appropriately, can you please clarify your own view here. Having heard it, I would be delighted to offer my own 2 cents.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Duo Seraphim
Ubi caritas et amor
# 256
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Posted
According to this site, we are all born Muslim. So the question may be "Why aren't you a Muslim now?"
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Embrace the serious whack. It's the Catholic thing to do. IngoB
The Messiah, Peace be upon him, said to his Apostles: 'Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not make it your abode.' (Bihar al-anwar xiv, 319)
Posts: 7952 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I'm not a muslim for many reasons.
1) Mohammad's nine-year-old wife, I would rather model and look up to Jesus who loved outcasts
2) scriptures confusing (koran, surahs)
3) I like Jesus better than Allah
4) I don't like getting up early to pray
5) don't like rituals (praying 5 x times a day, getting up early to go the Mosque)
6) don't like the whole Male is Superior thingy and segregation @ the mosque
7) my sins aren't forgiven
But I do have buddhist leanings and the four nobel truths are awesome.
*1) See your point, but it was culturally normative at the time - do you go for life-long celibacy after Jesus' fashion also ?
*2) If the bible is so clear how come the church is in so many pieces ?
*3) Allah is the arabic for God, specified as the same God as the God of the OT, and Jesus is recognised as one of his prophets
*4) How Islam is actually practised varies just as much as how Christianity is practised - I don't do matins myself
*5) See last point - various varieties of Christianity are not exactly ritual-free, e.g. baptism, communion
*6) See various varieties of Christianity - liberal muslims don't really buy this either
*7) I think (not sure about this) they are if you atone, for example extra fasting. Also, as Jesus is accepted as a prophet his teaching may some relevance.
[Can't speel prohpet]
[ 11. October 2005, 07:11: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
According to this site, we are all born Muslim. So the question may be "Why aren't you a Muslim now?"
And according to the nutcase site "Jesus is Lord dot Com" Muslims are a Catholic Organisation! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Sorry for that tangent!
-103
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
My gut level response is to say I'm not a muslim because my forbears risked (and some lost) their lives not to be one, endured persecution and yet held to their faith.
It would be a retrograde step, I think, to go back.
Not that others can't say the same about Christianity if I think a bit more about it ....
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Dogsbody
Shipmate
# 9355
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Posted
I am more inclined to believe in a religion that sets me free ![[Smile]](smile.gif) (although some christians get confused about that too ![[Confused]](confused.gif) )
Posts: 66 | From: SE England, but it varies | Registered: Apr 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I think it might be very freeing to be a Muslim -- less complicated ideas about God, for one thing. I could be very happy if I could be set free from having to listen to yet another sermon on the Trinity, something I think I will never quite get.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
In my case, if I didn't believe in the Christian revelation of one God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and in the incarnation of our Lord, I wouldn't believe in God.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zealot en vacance
Shipmate
# 9795
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Posted
Because faith in Jesus Christ renders any further revelation redundant.
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He said, "Love one another".
Posts: 2014 | From: Surface of planet Earth | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I'm not good enough to be a good Muslim. I'll never achieve salvation through my own efforts however I strive.
I'll leave the really difficult bit to Jesus thanks.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
Why not a Muslim?
I don't have any theological reason that springs to mind, but the thought of alcohol being banned is more than enough to keep me away from Islam...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Because I read the Koran and was not impressed.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
..because I think that A) Muslims and Christians worship the same God anyway; so we might as well use "our own" traditions. B) I don't find Islam very convincing, from the little I know of it. I know considerably more about Christianity, but I don't find that very convincing either, at the moment.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
The only connection I have with Christianity is that it is the tradition I have grown up and been educated in. Changing to another would be too much like effort. And what Marvin said.
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
1. Eastern religions coexist with some degree of ease. It would not be strange for someone from Japan to be Buddhist AND Shinto while maybe even borrowing from Hinduism. Why are Western religions dependent on exclusive truth?
This is a fascinating question, mostly because of what I have read about the possibilities of Jesus having been educated (after he and his parents fled) as a Buddhist. All speculation of course, but it would explain quite a lot ...
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
This is a fascinating question, mostly because of what I have read about the possibilities of Jesus having been educated (after he and his parents fled) as a Buddhist. All speculation of course, but it would explain quite a lot ...
Because obviously there were lots of Buddhists in Egypt who were capable of teaching two-year-olds.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
The only thing that keeps my anger at God at bay about the state of the world in its sin, sickness, and natural disaster is my belief that God has joined us in his creation. He lived and died to give us redemption and hope.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
This is a fascinating question, mostly because of what I have read about the possibilities of Jesus having been educated (after he and his parents fled) as a Buddhist. All speculation of course, but it would explain quite a lot ...
I have heard people say this, but the historical evidence does seem somewhat lacking, to be frank.
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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Goodric
Shipmate
# 8001
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Posted
As a system it has many attractions. It seems to work very well as a religion in many respects. Islam has yet to really come under the eye of modern critical thinking and on the whole has been sheltered from the process that Christianity found itself subjected to in the enlightenment. I think in the end the stumbling block for me is that I do not believe it is a true revelation of God. I think it fails on the basis of historicity too.
[ 11. October 2005, 09:59: Message edited by: Goodric ]
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Happy Christmas Everyone You can find me here
Gone to a better place.
Posts: 7160 | From: You all know anyway | Registered: Jul 2004
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Because obviously there were lots of Buddhists in Egypt who were capable of teaching two-year-olds.
The theory is that he went to Kashmir and didn't return until he was ready to start his ministry in his homeland, but I don't think it is useful to uphold any kind of belief about Jesus as absolute. It is interesting to explore all the avenues of thought though.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I did start reading the Koran. Around "the Cow" I already had enough of it. It's very "Old Testament" in style, but stripped of any humor and since it can't be re-interpreted in the light of the New Testament it really is sort of ... ugh.
Islam in general has about the emotional attraction of a mud brick to me. Sufism, yes, I love Rumi etc. But then it's always sort of difficult to see what the heck the Sufists have to do with other Islam apart from the monotheism...
Now, I used to be a Zen Buddhist, so that sort of thinking obviously has a lot of attraction to me. Still has. It's a much more powerful challenge to Christianity on an intellectual level, I think. (To me Islam is more of a social problem, there's very little challenge on theological grounds.) But in the end Christianity is true, so what can you do?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Because obviously there were lots of Buddhists in Egypt who were capable of teaching two-year-olds.
The theory is that he went to Kashmir and didn't return until he was ready to start his ministry in his homeland, but I don't think it is useful to uphold any kind of belief about Jesus as absolute. It is interesting to explore all the avenues of thought though.
It's not useful to hold any kind of belief about Jesus as absolute? Then I'll have trouble trying to explain why the view you refer to is so utterly unfeasible.
In short:
Jesus' teaching relates mainly to that of the OT prophets, and to his contemporary rabbis.
Jesus emphasised the importance of God, whereas Buddhism separates humanity's need for peace from its relation with the divine.
Jesus was recognised by people in Capernaum as the carpenter's son. A Jewish carpenter, even a well-to-do one, would not have had the resources to cross the Persian empire. And when he returned, who would know him as a carpenter's son?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The only thing that keeps my anger at God at bay about the state of the world in its sin, sickness, and natural disaster is my belief that God has joined us in his creation. He lived and died to give us redemption and hope.
I agree.
Also, ISTM Islam appeared pretty much ex nihilo. You would have to believe that the teachings of the Sixth Prophet Jesus became quite rapidly distorted out of all recognition, and that no true believers were able to preserve them, and that God, despite being quite fundamentalist in his approach to Scripture, did nothing to correct them until the seventh century.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
For that matter, there's a much more believable theory that suggests that Mahayana Buddhism stole its entire "Bodhisattva" ideal (roughly a potential Buddha who forgoes re-birth to help others on their path to enlightenment) and much of its communal ethical emphasis from spreading early Christianity in the East. The timeline is about right, the historical routes of trade are there, nothing special is required for that one to work.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm not good enough to be a good Muslim. I'll never achieve salvation through my own efforts however I strive.
To be fair, I'm not sure that Islam actually teaches this.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
It could have gone either way IngoB. I'm not so sure it really matters which.
Teufelchen: in short, that's a modernist interpretation.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
For that matter, there's a much more believable theory that suggests that Mahayana Buddhism stole its entire "Bodhisattva" ideal (roughly a potential Buddha who forgoes re-birth to help others on their path to enlightenment) and much of its communal ethical emphasis from spreading early Christianity in the East. The timeline is about right, the historical routes of trade are there, nothing special is required for that one to work.
And Christianity returned the compliment by incorporating the story of the Buddha into the Golden Legend.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by strathclydezero:
Teufelchen: in short, that's a modernist interpretation.
What does modernist mean in this context? And is the 'Jesus studied as a Buddhist' interpretation modernist, post-modernist, or what? And why does the type of interpretation matter? What about its content?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I'm not a Muslim because I find Islam [political-correctness violation alert] drearily works-righteousness oriented, violent, aesthetically barren and oppressive to women. Sufism is the only type of Islam that has even the tiniest bit of resonance for me.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
I'm not a Muslim because I was brought up Anglican, had my faith tried, examined it, and reaffirmed it, so I'm still very much Anglican.
I have read the Qu'ran right through, and it does have its moments. But then I also enjoyed the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad-Gita, and the teachings of Meng-Tzu. I'd even say that these books had had a definite influence on my Christianity. But I love Christianity, especially for its moral and ethical core. Anyone can say that God will save you: I like a faith which encourages me to help others.
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Moose
Apprentice
# 10396
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Posted
Hi there,
I've attended quite a few muslim-christian debates, which all seem to revolve around the historical reliability of each holy text.
If your interested, check out this website which is wuite well informed on the whole christian/muslim dialogue:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/
Cheers,
M.
Posts: 12 | From: Bradford | Registered: Sep 2005
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strathclydezero
# 180
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Moose:
If your interested, check out this website which is wuite well informed on the whole christian/muslim dialogue:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/
Yes - their rhetoric is well versed.
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All religions will pass, but this will remain:
simply sitting in a chair and looking in the distance.
V V Rozanov
Posts: 3276 | From: The Near East | Registered: May 2001
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Papio
Ship's baboon
# 4201
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Moose:
Hi there,
I've attended quite a few muslim-christian debates, which all seem to revolve around the historical reliability of each holy text.
If your interested, check out this website which is wuite well informed on the whole christian/muslim dialogue:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/
Cheers,
M.
Something tells me that a genuine dialogue between the two faiths would not be called "answering Islam". Would that be right?
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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page
Posts: 12176 | From: a zoo in England. | Registered: Mar 2003
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The Moose
Apprentice
# 10396
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Posted
It is a Christian apologetics site, yes. Quite a well researched one.
I don't think that undermines it relevance to the current thread. There are plenty of corresponding sites by muslims.
Posts: 12 | From: Bradford | Registered: Sep 2005
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
The problem I have with Islam is that although Mohammed said, "there is no compulsion in religion" Islam is a religion of compulsion. Christians are exhroted to give to charity, Muslims are compelled, to the point that in Islamic societies, goods can be confiscated by the authorities to compel charity. Conversions have been forced on pain of death throughout the history of Islam and it is a religion which officially sanctions the murder of infidels. It is no use leading Muslims saying that Islam promotes peace, its entire ethos is directed towards compelling compliance by force, if necessary.
But historically, only Christianity can rival Islam in the brutality stakes. There's no need to go into the appalling history of Christianity's inquisitions and pogroms and its merciless persecutions of heretics and Jews to realise that the nastiness of Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same coin of excessive exclusivism. That represents, IMO, a serious fault in the underlying nature of those religions. Where Buddhism wins every time is that it believes that everyone has to find their own path and given enough attenmpts through reincarnation, everyone will ultimately get there.
I'm no great believer in reincarnation, but I do believe that the soul has room for growth beyond the grave in some form or other and I believe that God will ultimately bring harmony to His whole creation with no soul left outside. Being a Christian, Muslim or Buddhist has a lot to do with where you are born. That's why I loathe Christianity's assertion that salvation only comes throgh Jesus. As if God could be so unfair as to condemn someone for just being Chinese. I'm not a Muslim because I wasn't born into Muslim culture and didn't grow up in it. I'm a Christin, sort of, because I did. But I have little respect for either of them.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by professorkirke:
...Why not ... a Buddhist ...
It's been claimed that being a Buddhist doesn't conflict with being a Christian. There's a (remarkably overpriced) book of the parallel sayings of Jesus and the Buddha.
I certainly find many Buddhist teachings useful in deciding how to live my life.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Thank you Marcus Borg "Jesus and Buddha, the Parallel Sayings".
I guess whether or not it's overpriced depends on your viewpoint. Since I tried Buddhism but it wasn't quite a "fit" (before I had my road to Damascus experience), I find the two traditions are remarkbly similar in their precepts. I didn't find the book overpriced because Borg has done the hard work for me. It's a tidy little reference work, I use it often.
I'm not a Muslim or a Buddhist because they didn't "fit".
I only admit my Christianity because I have no other choice. I love Him more than I love anyone or anything. He came to me, I didn't go looking for Him. I was so lost I thought I had stopped looking, but I hadn't stopped calling for help. When He found me, my deepest need and my greatest pain of separation were answered. It was the beginning of my healing, and He has stuck with me through all of it.
Neither of the others could begin to answer or heal that terrible despair.
Shalom
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Feminine Force:
Thank you Marcus Borg "Jesus and Buddha, the Parallel Sayings".
I guess whether or not it's overpriced depends on your viewpoint.
I recall it averaging two lines on each of two facing pages and retailing for $23.95 Canadian.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Islam posits the five pillars of faith as being required for entry into paradise. For this reason I could not be a Muslim or any other religion than Christianity which is the only religion that promises God's unearned, unmerited grace,
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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A Feminine Force
Ship's Onager
# 7812
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Posted
Like I said, it depends on your viewpoint.
For the economy and convenience it provides me as a reference work, and the frequency with which I refer to it, I didn't think it was overpriced. Borg has saved me many hours of digging.
The value is in the mind of the percipient. Clearly you didn't think it was worth it. I did. That's all.
Cheers
FF
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C2C - The Cure for What Ails Ya?
Posts: 2115 | From: Kingdom of Heaven | Registered: Jul 2004
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Islam posits the five pillars of faith as being required for entry into paradise. For this reason I could not be a Muslim or any other religion than Christianity which is the only religion that promises God's unearned, unmerited grace,
But what did Jesus tell the rich young man who asked what he had to do to be saved?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
Putting aside the actions of the followers of Christianity or Islam, I would go back and look at the actions of the 'founders'.
Christianity came into being because Jesus gave his life for others. Mohammed spread Islam by taking the lives of others.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
If I stuck with the religion of my forefathers, I'd either be pagan or Jewish (we're talking way, way, WAY back when). The only reason I'm not Muslim (or Jewish, too), is because of the (nobody expects the) Spanish Inquisition.
Well, at least that goes for my historical roots of faith. Personally, though, I've done Buddhisim. It don't work for me. I've read the Qu'ran, I like the Bible better.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
I am not a Muslim because the things that are most important to me about my faith .... the Incarnation, the Trinity, Redemption .... are denied by Islam. There is theoretically more chance of me being an atheist than a Muslim.
Accident of birth? I know an Iranian Muslim who became an Orthodox Christian on account of his love for Persian Shi'ia mystical poetry. Work that one out!
[ 11. October 2005, 15:09: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
People are ignoring what is to me the most important question, so I am going to start another thread on that specific question.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
Not to spoil anyones fun; but isn't any reason for choosing one other the other irrelevent. One is a christian because one believes that Christ is the route to salvation; and its not a rational thought out belief, just a matter of personal conviction and introspection. If one believes that the true route to salvation was revealed by Gabrial to Mohammed then one is a Muslim; again this is not based on rational conclusions from evidence but on personal faith. The "Why are you christian?" question can only really be answered with; because I am. Likewise the "Why aren't you [anything else]?" can only be answered; because I am not.
Unless anyone wants to claim that either Christianity or Islam are internally inconsistent; I don't think anyone has done this yet.
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Formerly Real Ale Methodist
Back after prolonged absence...
Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004
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Niënna
Ship's Lotus Blossom
# 4652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
I'm not a muslim for many reasons.
1) Mohammad's nine-year-old wife, I would rather model and look up to Jesus who loved outcasts
2) scriptures confusing (koran, surahs)
3) I like Jesus better than Allah
4) I don't like getting up early to pray
5) don't like rituals (praying 5 x times a day, getting up early to go the Mosque)
6) don't like the whole Male is Superior thingy and segregation @ the mosque
7) my sins aren't forgiven
But I do have buddhist leanings and the four nobel truths are awesome.
*1) See your point, but it was culturally normative at the time - do you go for life-long celibacy after Jesus' fashion also ?
Yeah, but then Christians were thrown to the lions weren't they? And I can understand celibacy for that reason - after all your life-long celibacy wasn't too bad because your life ended pretty soon after you became a Christian anyways.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink: *2) If the bible is so clear how come the church is in so many pieces ?
The Koran and the surahs are confusing for me. And its pretty boring. I do like some arabic poetry. But not the Koran. I happen to really like the bible. I don't always understand everything under the sun. Why should I expect others to either?
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink: *3) Allah is the arabic for God, specified as the same God as the God of the OT, and Jesus is recognised as one of his prophets
If you look at the character of Allah and you look at the character of Jesus - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they are different. What I was saying is that I like Jesus better. Allah gets two thumbs down.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink: *4) How Islam is actually practised varies just as much as how Christianity is practised - I don't do matins myself
True. Islam varies. I was picking on one facet that I didn't like.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink: *6) See various varieties of Christianity - liberal muslims don't really buy this either
Sure, but as I am a woman, I'd rather live in the post-Christian Europe than in any Islamic country.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink: *7) I think (not sure about this) they are if you atone, for example extra fasting.
Nope. I asked. There is no atonement for sins, you are at Allah's mercy and discretion.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink: *Also, as Jesus is accepted as a prophet his teaching may some relevance.
Yes, but didn't you know that his teachings were corrupted by the Christians?
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[Nino points a gun at Chiki]
Nino: Now... tell me. Who started the war?
Chiki: [long pause] We did.
~No Man's Land
Posts: 2298 | From: Purgatory | Registered: Jun 2003
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