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Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
And yet I feel sure that it would be different second time around. And it is related to what we discussed earlier about the continnum of sexual expression - once you are having regular sex, you become so familiar with the experience, and quite comfortable with the idea that a passionate kiss might well just lead to full sex - or might not, but the 'freedom' to entertain the idea is there. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but having been accustomed to no 'artificial barriers' of what is permissible (eg on which parts of your body you are happy to be touched), I think it would be far harder in a future relationship to go back to the way you were before marriage, with the 'barriers up'

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Had Swedenbourg seen sex as a 'great treat,' that would be understandable. Someone's virginity as 'the great treat' is a concept that I loathe.

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Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Good point Ruth but I don't think your 'barriers' are quite the same as the ones I had, before marriage, when the reason I had them was because I believed sex outside marriage was wrong. Yours seem to be more pragmatic based on what is 'appropriate' for you at a particular time in a particular relationship.

Also, I've now been married 18 years, (and still having regular sex! ); thats an awful long time to get accustomed to the idea, for it to seem so 'natural' for me, that I've almost forgotten what it was like to have the barriers!

Does that make sense, to explain how we can be seeing this a bit differently?

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Originally posted by that Wikkid Person:
A friend of mine argued this after his own marriage. He said "Once the genie's out of the bottle and you know what you're saying 'no' to, it doesn't want to go back in."

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"Once the genie's out of the bottle and you know what you're saying 'no' to, it doesn't want to go back in."

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Originally posted by that Wikkid Person:
If someone says I'm alone because of my views on virginity, or that I am freakish, or that I have intimacy and trust issues and am trying to blame it on women I've failed to get on with, or that it is "my fault" that I'm alone, this has cut me to the quick.

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Have you said what your views are? Have I missed it?

Anyway, you don't sound freakish to me. Maybe my views are unusual also. But virtually every single person I know believes that virginity until marriage is an exceedingly important thing.

World-wide I am sure that this is the view of most people on this planet - although certainly far fewer actually live up to it. I wonder if there are statistics about this.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Maybe my views are unusual also. But virtually every single person I know believes that virginity until marriage is an exceedingly important thing.

World-wide I am sure that this is the view of most people on this planet - although certainly far fewer actually live up to it. I wonder if there are statistics about this.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
So I rather doubt virginity before marriage is something "most people" prize.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
So I rather doubt virginity before marriage is something "most people" prize.

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Originally posted by that Wikkid Person:
The thread IS about what is special (or not special) about virginity. It's relation to marriage is not implicitly part of every part of the discussion.

Some people feel that virginity is inherently good or special, others feel that it's nothing important, and still others feel that it's different for different people and it depends what you invest in it.

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Originally posted by Oxymoron:
Do you really believe that sex changes anything about you in Gods eyes?
Do you really believe that not having sex makes him love you more?
Do you really believe marriage is that important in his eyes? That simply putting that wedding ring on changes anything about the nature of love on earth or in heaven?

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1. No. God loves you the same no matter what.
2. No.
3. Yes. Love in marriage is the precious jewel of human life. It is the foundation of all love in heaven and on earth.
4. Sort of. Just putting on the ring doesn't do it. It's the follow-through.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
what, exactly, _is_ a male virgin, anyway? [then lots of what ifs and what abouts]

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Not to pick on you, nicolemrw; your post was just a good jumping-off point whence to point out that fuzziness at the edges doesn't invalidate an entire concept.

What, after all, is a thief? Is a pickpocket just as much a thief as a mugger who sticks a gun in your face? Is the thief still a thief if he fully intends to pay you back later? If I pick up a $10 bill on the ground which obviously isn't mine, am I a thief? If I pull a silly prank with a stuffed animal like chukovsky did, am I a thief? (And if I get someone to steal something for me, can I call myself a "technical nonthief"? )

Obviously we could go on all day with these exceptions and borderline cases, but do we conclude from this that there's no such thing as a thief?

Yet some people seem to have concluded in this thread that there's no such thing as a virgin.

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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.

I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
So go ahead, tell me again about how much people care about virginity.

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Thank you for showing that people do matter world-wide. Of course it makes sense that we would focus on our own cultures.

Those figures do show that there must be many people who lose their virginity before they are married in these cultures.

This does not necessarily mean that virginity is not prized in those cultures. I think that we would all acknowledge that even when virginity is given a high value, it is still difficult to live up to that ideal.

Given that there is a gap between principles and practice just about everywhere, the lack of perfect application does not necessarily mean that the beliefs are absent.

My original comment to TWP was that the view that virginity before marriage is important isn't strange, and that world-wide I am sure that this is the view of most people on this planet. The fact that not everyone lives up to this view does not mean that it is not there.

Statistically, the comparison of average age at marriage with average age of first sexual experience is good. I would also hope for statistics like percentage of people whose first sexual experience was with their spouse. I'm sure this varies from culture to culture.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by RuthW:
According to UK government statistics in 2000 the average age at marriage for men was 34.8 and for women was 32.1.

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Originally posted by Laura:
This is incredibly "old" for first marriage, seven years older than the US averages -- it can't be right unless they're talking about all marriages, not just first ones.

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3. Yes. Love in marriage is the precious jewel of human life. It is the foundation of all love in heaven and on earth.

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Originally posted by The Wanderer:

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3. Yes. Love in marriage is the precious jewel of human life. It is the foundation of all love in heaven and on earth.

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Freddy, I know that you are probably quoting from your Swedenbogian interpretation of the Bible here, but this makes me uneasy. It does have various implications for singles that I'm not sure i want to go along with.

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Yes, sorry about that. As the concept is understood by Swedenborgians it does include singles, and does not include the pressure to marry. Everyone, whether married or single, benefits from there being harmonious relationships between the sexes in general in society.

In a sense it means that it would be nice if everyone had a happy childhood and family life, and good friendships all around. It also hold the idea that everyone in heaven is married. I know that not many go along with that belief.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Planned Parent of NY says the average age of first intercourse in the US is 16.

So I rather doubt virginity before marriage is something "most people" prize.

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Originally posted by Try:

Confusion over a sexual identity or orientation- if you don’t know who you are or what you want in a relationship (or even, God forbid, weather you prefer men or women), you aren’t ready to have sex.

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by Try:

Confusion over a sexual identity or orientation- if you don’t know who you are or what you want in a relationship (or even, God forbid, weather you prefer men or women), you aren’t ready to have sex.

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So that's the human species wiped out in one generation then!

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
... those unfamiliar with such traditions can forget, and which can make it appear, incorrectly, that virginity per se was the reason for their being honoured or consulted at that time...

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Originally posted by Henry Troup:
Did Christianity, so to speak, "catch" the virginity thing from the Roman Vestal Virgins?

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
The idea of the 'holy hymen' often became absurd during those ages, as well. Many a Franciscan wasted his breath on long sermons defending the idea that, when Jesus was born, he 'passed through his mother's body the way he passed through the closed doors of the room after his resurrection.' God forbid that there be any allowance for a natural birth, which would place his mother's virginity in question.

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