|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: Guns 'n' irretrievable psychological damage
|
Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
|
Posted
Yesterday, in a $2 shop (we shop in all the best places) I told my three kids they could choose anything they wanted. My 7 year old son wanted a toy cap gun. I told him I hate guns and cap guns make too much noise. He told me that it was only a toy and he knows what guns sound like because he's heard one before. He said he'd just have the gun, without the caps. He also pointed out that the gun he wants is a toy, and can't hurt anyone (said as though I was a complete idiot for thinking otherwise).
Back a bit to 21 June last year, where Mr Altar and my two youngest children are at a football clinic. As it ends, shots ring out and they watch (in a mix of horror and fascination) as a man in a balaclava runs from a van, where he has just shot dead two men in the front seat. In front of 200 children and parents. In front of one of the men's two children.
This man was the father of a boy in my son's class. He was a criminal and it was only a matter of time, but this was a real shock. My son had all but seen his friend's father murdered.
For weeks afterwards he was jumpy (as was Mr A and my daughter). He was so anxious about his friend coming back to school because he didn't want to deal with it at all. So lots of sleepless nights etc. Then one day, he said to me that he wasn't scared anymore because his friend's father "knew a lot of bad guys" and announced that because we don't, we are all safe.
Nevertheless, I was flabbergasted that he wanted a toy gun, after seeing what he did. But I bought him one (without caps) because I figured that if I didn't, he'd get all obsessed about guns etc. He is under strict instructions not to point it at anyone, or pretend to kill anyone, but who knows what is going on inside that mind.
OK, did I do the wrong thing?
[typo in title]
[ 08. January 2006, 21:59: Message edited by: Erin ]
--------------------
Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
My brothers and I had toy guns that shot 1"-diameter plastic disks. We played with them all the time - finding the little plastic disks all over the house used to drive my mother crazy. It was great fun shooting at each other. (And great practice for when I went to college and we played Assassin using the same type of toy guns.) I turned out a pacifist. My brothers aren't, but they aren't violent. Or disturbed.
If people didn't buy their kids guns, they'd pick up sticks or cock their fingers and pretend the sticks or fingers were guns. What you teach your kids about how to treat other people (and giving them the emotional support that will help them not turn out to be sociopaths) has got to be way more important than whether they play with toy guns or not.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Grits
Compassionate fundamentalist
# 4169
|
Posted
We had guns, too. It was all about cowboys and Indians back then. My brother had a great plastic machine gun, black with a red knob that you pulled back to "cock" it, then pulled the trigger and it released for a great "rat-a-tat-a-tat" sound. We loved that gun. Then one of us left it in the oven (who knows?), and Mom flambeed it when she started dinner that night.
I cannot stand violence and even missed a goodly portion of The Two Towers because of the fighting. You have to give kids credit. They do know the difference.
--------------------
Lord, fill my mouth with worthwhile stuff, and shut it when I've said enough. Amen.
Posts: 8419 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
What Ruth said. (There. That's two liberals in a row telling you that you didn't do the wrong thing.) I would just keep an ear out for what kind of play-acting he does with the gun, in the event that he seems to still have some lingering fears from that terrible episode.
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grits:
Then one of us left it in the oven (who knows?), and Mom flambeed it when she started dinner that night.
"THEY SHALL BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES, AND MELT THEIR GUNS INTO A GOOEY MESS"
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
|
Posted
You are right. It's fun to play Shoot the Bad Guy. I used to play it. Killed many a sister.
However, while I respect my son's right to shoot at his sisters in mock cowboy style, another boy in my son's class, whose father died in the same manner (and happened to be the brother of the man in my story) is a good friend of my son. Never mind my sleepless nights at the friendships being formed. I pay a fortune to send him to a toffee-nosed private school. Alas.
Last year, as we stode out of the schoolgrounds, my son rolled up his artwork into a cylinder, put it over his forearm, aimed it at his little friend and said (words to the effect of) "OK, let's see how fast you can run to avoid my bullets".
It was all done in boyish fun, and the child in question does not even know how his father died, but I nearly carked it on the spot. Standing as I was next to the widow in question.
I got in the car with my son and told him that he was never never never to say that sort of thing again to his friend. What I actually meant was don't say it again while I am anywhere near his poor mother.
Supplementary question: Do I let him go on pretending to shoot his friends whose father's have been murdered?
--------------------
Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
|
Posted
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
I had plenty of toy guns and a couple of real ones growing up. I never reached for any of them out of anger, even when a kid. Not to claim I've never engaged in violent action - just never thought of using a firearm. Teaching children about firearm safety and respect for the power it puts in your hands is the best way, I think. Denying them the play and the toys creates a mystic about the whole the thing. And has been said for ages, by whom I'm not sure: quote:
When we are forbidden a thing, that we desireth.
The play and the toys guns are important in that it teaches some hand-eye coordination which will be necessary when/if they ever get a real gun. Especially if the gun fires plastic pellets or discs.
I dont think you did anything wrong, but the kid is going to be pretty bored not being able to point the gun at anyone or use the caps. Maybe you could buy him a remote control car and withhold the batteries?
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
I was never allowed toy guns or knives growing up. This included water pistols, which was pretty stinkariffic for a kid growing up in the Central California heat.
My father's explanation was that we had real guns and knives in the house, and he wanted my sister and I to respect them, not confuse them with something we played with.
In most of the card-carrying National Rifle Association households I have seen, this was the typical belief. 'Course, we didn't have to play with fake guns since we made frequent trips out to the shooting range and competed against each other in target shooting and such.
'Course, I was also in class during one of the first school shootings in the United States. Baruch HaShem, no one died. I've said it once, I'll say it again, bolt action rifles are covered by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution, handguns are not.
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
I grew up in a house full of guns. Real guns. They weren't locked up. There was a pistol in my dad's night table. A shotgun in the coat closet. The rifles were in my dad's bedroom closet. Ammo was in boxes in the basement.
We had no toy guns in the house. None. Well, except for the neon-colored plastic water pistols. And I think those were a concession to my mother: I am sure my dad would have preferred we not have the water pistols. If you want to have a water fight, you can use an empty dish soap bottle -- they squirt really well.
Dad taught us all to shoot as soon as we were able to hold a gun. And he taught us, from before the time we could walk, I think, his Three Rules for Guns:
1. All guns are real.
2. All guns are loaded.
3. You never point a gun at anything that you don't intend to shoot (and kill, if it's alive).
The problem with toy guns is that they violate the first rule for guns. Guns are not toys. Never.
Toy guns are tragedies waiting to happen. Children hiding in the bushes playing cops and robbers have been killed by cops who saw the shadowy movement of a person and a very real-looking toy gun. Children have killed their friends when they found a real gun and thought it was a toy.
My children don't have toy guns. If they want to point their finger or a stick at someone and go "bang! bang! you're dead!" they can do so. But anything that looks like a gun *is* a gun, and must be treated accordingly.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
Thank you, Josephine, that was a very sobering post.
Never ever let your gun
pointed be at anyone.
That it may unloaded be
matters not the least to me.
I may have changed my mind on toy guns after your post.
Cheers,
anglicanrascal
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
|
Posted
[Tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
The gun makes it a lot easier though.
[/Tangent]
For me, the question wouldn't be "Is owning a toy gun going to make someone more likely to get a real gun?" but "Can they tell the difference?"
I think it is better to tell children to avoid guns altogether.
--------------------
Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Liam
Shipmate
# 4961
|
Posted
I'm another who grew up reading war comics and playing with toy guns, and am now pretty much a pacifist, so I don't think toy guns are too big a deal.
I am, however, very puzzled by the idea that it might be OK to have a loaded real gun in the house but not to allow kids toy guns. I'm sure someone will point out this is one of those areas where UK and US opinion is simply irreconcilable, but come on! The one can kill people, the other is just a toy. It seems bizarre to worry about kids not taking firearms seriously enough while keeping them in the family home.
Posts: 138 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
I grew up in a no guns (in Wales) , no toy guns house. The first thing I did on woodwork (at the age of 14) was make an exact replica Sten Gum (WWII Machine gun). And I spent all my years before that playing in the fields using sticks as guns.
I have since owned a air rifle and on occasion have been clay pigeon shooting but have not grown up to have any sort of obsession with fire arms.
I let my sons have toy guns but I felt very uncomfortable about it. I hated it when they pointed them at me.
I think there may be a difference between the UK and the US and I also found Josephine’s post ringing bells. I think if I was living in a country which had different laws and attitudes to guns and gun ownership I would have different views.
All my sons have grown out of the toy gun thing making me think I made the right decision. Now they just play violent shoot em ups on their friking playstations. Sigh.
P
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Space Monkey, I think it comes under the general concept that if you have guns in the home (and, from my perspective I can't see any reason to do so ... but I do know that many people think this is a perfectly reasonable thing) then they must be kept in a responsible manner. That would include making sure any children know that they are not toys, and having toy guns around is a potential source of confusion. Such confusion does happen, for example, how many kids have taken medicines thinking they were sweets?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
...
I dont think you did anything wrong, but the kid is going to be pretty bored not being able to point the gun at anyone or use the caps. Maybe you could buy him a remote control car and withhold the batteries?
Well, guns might not kill people all on their own, but I can't imagine that the killer would have rushed in and taken on two men with a dagger, or sword. The gun is so easy to use and it is intended for killing. Nothing else.
And the slogan is one that does not go down well in Australia, where there is no right to bear arms. It is illegal. Full stop. And thankfully so.
And so far as the caps are concerned, my son did not want them. He hates the sound of the gun. That part is still too raw. Hopefully always will be.
--------------------
Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ann
Curious
# 94
|
Posted
There was a case in the Telegraph this morning where two children found what they thought was a toy gun in some bushes and showed showed their aunt - one was holding it to the head of his brother and was about to pull the trigger when the aunt stopped him. It turned out to be a replica gun that had been converted to fire real ammunition and was loaded.
(The article is here, but I had to register to get to it.)
When we were children, we had cap guns (to the utter fury of our neighbour who kept pigeons), but we've never even thought about having real guns.
--------------------
Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liam
Shipmate
# 4961
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Space Monkey, I think it comes under the general concept that if you have guns in the home (and, from my perspective I can't see any reason to do so ... but I do know that many people think this is a perfectly reasonable thing) then they must be kept in a responsible manner. That would include making sure any children know that they are not toys, and having toy guns around is a potential source of confusion. Such confusion does happen, for example, how many kids have taken medicines thinking they were sweets?
I do appreciate that, but as you say, having guns in the home is simply incomprehensible to me in the first place. For me, the safety question is about having a lethal weapon at all, not teaching people to respect it.
Posts: 138 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
You might be interested in gun related death statistics for children.
When our oldest was a quite young we decided to have no toy guns in the house. That made us happy right up until we saw him playing in the back yard with a stick going "bang, bang." Kids, at least kids in the US, get exposed to playing at guns no matter what. I feel it becomes the responsibility of parents to teach their children about what real guns can do and why they need to keep the toy/real distinction in mind. That is not accomplished by a five minute lecture when they are four years old. It is something that happens over time.
As to pointing a gun at a child whose father was gunned down, your child couldn't know what you know about the potential psychological effect it might have. Let him know what his buddy might feel when a gun, even a toy gun, is pointed at him. It will be an opportunity for him to learn some important life lessons.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nonpropheteer
6 Syllable Master
# 5053
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by 'Lurker':
[Tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
The gun makes it a lot easier though.
[/Tangent]
For me, the question wouldn't be "Is owning a toy gun going to make someone more likely to get a real gun?" but "Can they tell the difference?"
I think it is better to tell children to avoid guns altogether.
Yes. Its also better to tell children to avoid sex until they are emotionally and financially stable enough to deal with consequences. Perhaps this works in Europe, but American children tend to ignore parental wisdom.
A gun is an inanimate object that has no will of its own and cannot shoulder the blame for the misuse and abuse it suffers from careless or evil users. It is a tool, like a car or a knife or a television.
...and if your kid is stupid enough to face down a cop in a darkened alley (the ONLY case like this I have heard of) with a toy gun then there are significantly more problems in the household than whether or not a toy gun is going to turn him into a psychopath.
Posts: 2086 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
|
Posted
I played with toy guns as a kid. I shot air rifles at targets under supervision while in the Scouts. I have once tried clay pigeon shooting and I really enjoyed it. Non of this seemed to do me any harm. I'm a pretty non-violent guy in general.
However, Josephine's post made me think about how I would feel if I lived in a society where guns are common. It sounds to me like Josephine's dad took a very sensible line. If you're going to have real guns lying around then no gun should be considered safe.
Fortunately, I live in a country where you just don't see guns. Private ownership of hand guns is banned. Shotguns have to be licensed and kept in locked safes if you keep them at home. The police don't rountinely carry guns (in fact, it's rare to see a police officer with a gun.)
I like it like this! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
A gun is an inanimate object that has no will of its own and cannot shoulder the blame for the misuse and abuse it suffers from careless or evil users. It is a tool, like a car or a knife or a television.
(Sorry to double post - cross posted with np)
This is certainly true but it is also true that if you remove the guns then people have less of misusing / abusing them.
We try to stop narcotics from proliferating in society because they're harmful. Why the difference with guns?
--------------------
Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
...and if your kid is stupid enough to face down a cop in a darkened alley (the ONLY case like this I have heard of) with a toy gun then there are significantly more problems in the household than whether or not a toy gun is going to turn him into a psychopath.
The problem most of us are considering, I think, is not whether toy guns turn kids into psychopaths, but whether toy guns
a) undermine the sense of respect that kids need to have towards a lethal weapon that not only could be aimed at them, but also that they themselves could operate effectively even at a young age
b) glorify violence.
The first point is largely although not entirely irrelevent in the UK - this is *not* IMHO one of those US/UK different thinking things, it's just a consequence of the fact that very few of our kids are likely to encounter a real gun. There are exceptions to this depending on where you live of course. If I lived in the US I would regard it as a very real concern, and I might too in certain UK inner city areas.
The second... well, I still enjoy the odd Clint Eastwood film but I find more and more that I have to switch my brain into "total fantasy" mode to do so as I get older. I don't think point b) applies, and as has been said, you can point a finger to play soldiers.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
Children mimic what they see. Most children see the imitation of violence, as depicted on TV films etc. This is maximised for excitement rather than realism.
E.g. children playing 'soldiers' in mainland Britain may dash about going 'bang! bang!'. Children in Ulster playing soldiers walk in a slow swagger, gun cradled on elbow - because they've see real soldiers.
The difficulty for LATA's son seems to be that he has both messages: the bit that he associates with the real - the noise - he doesn't like. But that co-exists with the imaginary. As he grows up, either the real will spread the distaste to the imaginary, or the imaginary will overwrite his experience of the real.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moth
Shipmate
# 2589
|
Posted
Speaking from a UK perspective, both my sons have had toy guns of many different sorts. They wanted them, and bought them with their own money. I could have forbidden it, but the elder one made a persuasive case rather like that in the OP, and I had to admit that he is sensible and does know the difference between fact and fantasy.
If I lived in the US, I might be more anxious about the real/toy confusion point, but as others have said, that's not really an issue here.
BC (13) has an airsoft gun at the moment. I was sufficiently anxious about it to draw up a contract as to its use - for example, he must never get it out when he has friends round and there are no adults in the house, and he must never take it off our property without express permission. Breach of the contract results in confiscation for three months for a first offence, permanent loss of the gun for a second.
SC (10) is going through a highly militaristic phase at present, reading books about the SAS and carrying round his 'survival kit' of compass, waterproof matches, penknife etc. I hope he doesn't want to join the army, as that wouldn't fit my woolly liberal ideals at all - but your children are not your property, they have their own ideas and values!
I suppose it boils down to the fact that boys will be boys, most of them do know the difference between a game and real life, and most of them grow out of gun games. If you live in a country where people routinely own guns, different considerations probably apply. Fortunately for me, I live in a country where ordinary people never see a gun in real life, so most of us would assume a child had a toy not a real one!
--------------------
"There are governments that burn books, and then there are those that sell the libraries and shut the universities to anyone who can't pay for a key." Laurie Penny.
Posts: 3446 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
So what I want to know is, how come no one ever says this about nuclear weapons?
--------------------
In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.
I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.
Posts: 1597 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kyralessa:
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
So what I want to know is, how come no one ever says this about nuclear weapons?
Well they do. They say that people (except for US of course) can't be trusted with nuclear weapons.
Non-propheteer is right. Gunsd don;t kill people, people kill people. So if we want fewer people to be killed, we must prevent people from having guns because people are the problem. Guns might be perfectly OK in the hands of some other species, but we aren't to be trusted with them.
The plain fact is that the more guns there are around, the more people get killed. That's why murder is a far worse problem in gunridden places than it is in relatively gunfree places. Its not that we're nicer than the Americans, its just that its harder to kill someone on the spur of the moment with a stick than it is with a gun.
Heck, the US accidental death rate from guns is higher than our murder rate.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
people are the problem. Guns might be perfectly OK in the hands of some other species, but we aren't to be trusted with them.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Well done.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kyralessa:
quote:
Originally posted by nonpropheteer:
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
So what I want to know is, how come no one ever says this about nuclear weapons?
When's the last time somebody was killed by a nuclear weapon?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
|
Posted
The full text of the poem quoted by anglicanrascal above can be found here.
The final couplet is that part that always strikes home the most to me
quote:
"All the pheasants ever bred
Won't repay for one man dead."
--------------------
Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
I'd never seen that poem before. Thanks for the link.
As for why anyone would have guns in the home: in the US, particularly in rural areas, there are still people who hunt for food. Some of them would have very little meat in their diet if they didn't hunt; others enjoy the sport and the meat is a fringe benefit. (For my father, in his youth, the former was true; when he was older, it was the latter.)
There are also still places where bears and cougars pose a real danger to human beings and to livestock. For farmers and ranchers in those areas, guns are just another tool for taking care of their business. Yes, it's a dangerous tool, but many tools are dangerous. It's up to the people to know how to use it safely.
When I was in college, I went along with a friend of mine to visit a friend of hers who was a gun collector. He pulled out his newest acquisition to show us. When my friend (who had little exposure to guns, having been reared mostly in Japan) raised the gun to her shoulder to look through the sight, the barrel of the gun pointed briefly in my direction, before she aimed it out the window (where there were people across the street -- she wasn't aiming at the people, mind you, just pointing the gun in that general direction). That caused a serious argument between my friend and me -- I thought she had better never touch a gun again rather than treat one so casually. She thought I was being stupid, since the gun was unloaded.
But, Gun Safety Rule #2: All guns are loaded. To be safe, you unload the gun, put the safety on, and still treat it as if it's loaded.
In the US, anyway, children and adults will come across guns. Best teach them how to be safe.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by josephine:
There are also still places where bears and cougars pose a real danger to human beings and to livestock.
I do love living in a country where I'm top of the food chain.
--------------------
Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
|
Posted
I was raised with guns and toy guns, and have no urge to hurt fellow citizens in the slightest. Hurt criminals? Absolutely. IF required. But not fellow citizens.
As for guns and kids, California and many other states here have laws that say if a kid hurts themselves or someone else with your gun and you did not take reasonable precautions, you go to jail. A very good thing IMHO.
I realize our bretheren over the pond have different values, even some of our bretheren on this side of the pond. And some slogans do not help a whole lot. For those that wish to take the U.K. and say "See it works Here", please realize that America is as similar to you as Antarctica in many ways, which is to say not....at.....all
So here's a longer form of why guns are not going away any time soon in America, if some of us have something to say about it:
We want to be able to walk city streets safely and be secure in our homes. We also want our Constitutional rights protected, to guard against the erosion of our civil liberties. In particular, we want to see all people treated equally under the law, as our Constitution requires. America's millions of gun owners are people too.
Law-abiding, responsible citizens do not and should not need to ask anyone's permission or approval to engage in a peaceful activity. Gun ownership, by itself, harms no other person and cannot morally justify criminal penalties.
One of the most important protections we Americans have against government tyranny is that we are presumed innocent of any crime until proven guilty, before a jury, in a proper trial.
But, gun control advocates would declare all gun owners guilty without trial, simply for owning guns, although millions of them have never used their guns to harm another person. Such blanket condemnation is immoral, unfair and contrary to the principles on which America was founded.
The primary victim of these misguided efforts is the honest citizen whose civil rights are trampled as frustrated legislators and police tighten the screws.
I agree with the majority of Americans who believe they have the right to decide how best to protect themselves, their families and their property. Millions of Americans have guns in their homes and sleep more comfortably because of it. Studies show that where gun ownership is illegal, residential burglaries are higher. A man with a gun in his home is no threat to you if you aren't breaking into it.
The police do not provide security in your home, your business or the street. They show up after the crime to take reports and do detective work. The poorer the neighborhood, the riskier it is for peaceful residents.
Only an armed citizenry can be present in sufficient numbers to prevent or deter violent crime before it starts, or to reduce its spread. Interviews with convicted felons indicate that fear of the armed citizen significantly deters crime. A criminal is more likely to be driven off from a particular crime by an armed victim than to be convicted and imprisoned for it. Thus, widespread gun ownership will make neighborhoods safer.
Guns are not the problem. They are inanimate objects. Gun control advocates talk as if guns could act on their own, as if human beings cannot control them, so the uncontrollable guns must be banished.
Let us put the responsibility where it belongs, on the owner and user of the gun. If he or she acts responsibly, without attacking others or causing injury negligently, no crime or harm has been done. Leave them in peace. But, if a person commits a crime with a gun, then impose the severest penalties for the injuries done to the victim. Similarly, hold the negligent gun user fully liable for all harm his negligence does to others.
Source
[ 08. January 2004, 00:46: Message edited by: BarkingMad Geo ]
--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
|
Posted
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." -Robert A. Heinlein
--------------------
"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
|
Posted
Oh, goody. The ever-predictable quarterly manifesto from the gun enthusiasts among us. To save us all the effort, may I just draw ditto marks under whatever I said the last time they came out to bay at the moon?
Let me just add my shopworn observations:
1) True, guns don't kill people. But neither do people kill people. It's the morons who own guns who kill people.
2) You wanna play bang-bang-bang? Go join your friendly neighborhood well-ordered militia. Reasonable handgun laws don't "discriminate" against gun owners any more than drug laws "discriminate" against stoners.
3) For 36 years and in three wars my father killed people for a living and did a damn fine job of it, if you'll allow me a little daughterly kvelling. And yet he refused to have a firearm of any kind on the house and never once touched a gun for "fun" -- be it for hunting or target shooting or what have you. It's a rare member of the military who does, actually. Once you've seen what they can do to people, they just don't seem all that enjoyable.
4) Certainly people in rural areas may need a long-barreled firearm to hunt or deal with dangerous animals. But you don't need a readily concealable handgun with cop-killer bullets in the chamber to sneak up on Bambi.
5) That's why who really bothers me aren't gun owners as much as people who derive that much enjoyment from owning guns. You want a hobby? Try stamp collecting.
The problem with BMG's approach:
quote:
But, if a person commits a crime with a gun, then impose the severest penalties for the injuries done to the victim. Similarly, hold the negligent gun user fully liable for all harm his negligence does to others.
is that by the time we're able to separate the responsible owners from the irresponsible ones, somebody's four-year-old child or eighty-year-old mother or 59-year-old lead singer is maimed or killed.
[ 08. January 2004, 02:15: Message edited by: Presleyterian ]
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
|
Posted
Obviously things are different in Australia. A backwater, if you like.
Gun killings are rare here. Because we have no guns around.
After the killing I mentioned, it transpired that the victim always carried a gun. Even to a kids' football clinic. Everyone was horrified. I guess in the US this would be so ho-hum that no one would blink.
I can walk the streets knowing that no trigger happy dickhead with a gun is likely to kill me. Either intentionally or by mistake. By and large, the criminals who own them in Australia only kill each other. Usually they do it in private.
After the Port Arthur massacre a few years ago, the government finally got a bit tough and tightened up laws. I was very happy to see images of guns being crushed.
I am very happy to waive any right to bear arms. I learned to shoot at school (clay targets) and could not see the thrill in banging something to smitherines. I see less thrills in killing animals for the hell of it. No big animals threaten me. I have no one I care to kill. Or threaten.
However, a toy is a toy. I can accept that. And kids are quite smart. They know that a toy doesn't kill.
But God forbid that any child of mine should ever ask to have a real gun.
[ 08. January 2004, 02:28: Message edited by: Left at the altar ]
--------------------
Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
|
Posted
That's fascinating, Left at the Altar. One of the arguments always made in the US is that the rigors of rural life make gun ownership a necessity. But everything I've read (OK, it was just Bill Bryson's In a Sunburned Country)suggests that rural life in Australia poses vastly more natural hazards than the US and yet gun ownership is highly regulated.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Riv
Shipmate
# 3553
|
Posted
And on a related note, after 12 years of hammering, the State of Ohio will finally pass Conceal & Carry legislation.
--------------------
"I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant." Ralph Vaughan Williams
"Riv, you've done a much better job communicating your passion than your point. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." Tom Clune
Posts: 2749 | From: Too far South, USA. I really want to move. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the altar:
I guess in the US this would be so ho-hum that no one would blink.
Not really. And without a concealed weapons permit he'd be breaking the law.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Presleyterian:
That's fascinating, Left at the Altar. One of the arguments always made in the US is that the rigors of rural life make gun ownership a necessity. But everything I've read (OK, it was just Bill Bryson's In a Sunburned Country)suggests that rural life in Australia poses vastly more natural hazards than the US and yet gun ownership is highly regulated.
Apart from humans, I can't think of a single thing that would kill you. Except snakes. And its illegal to shoot them anyway.
--------------------
Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
aj
firewire technophobe
# 1383
|
Posted
I remember, in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre one issue about gun regulation was whether rural workers were permitted to own semi-automatic weapons. One argument for ownership was that if you had to shoot a fast moving, distant animal and missed on the first shot, then you had another round ready instantly (and another, and another etc.). Opponents to this said that if you couldn't get it right with the first shot, then what were you doing anyway...?
--------------------
if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?
Posts: 2994 | From: ...on location | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
|
Posted
What fast-moving animal would they need to shoot? Kangaroos? Bunnies? Fast criminals?
[ 08. January 2004, 03:41: Message edited by: Left at the altar ]
--------------------
Still pretty Amazing, but no longer Mavis.
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
aj
firewire technophobe
# 1383
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the altar:
Apart from humans, I can't think of a single thing that would kill you. Except snakes. And its illegal to shoot them anyway.
Hey - didn't Steve Irwin give you a fright like he gave me?
--------------------
if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?
Posts: 2994 | From: ...on location | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
aj
firewire technophobe
# 1383
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Left at the altar:
What fast-moving animal would they need to shoot? Kangaroos? Bunnies? Fast criminals?
I guess so.
Thylacines?
--------------------
if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?
Posts: 2994 | From: ...on location | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
anglicanrascal
Shipmate
# 3412
|
Posted
Tasmanians all let us rejoice
For we shoot fast and free.
Posts: 3186 | From: Diocese of Litigalia | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
Presleyterian, welcome to Purgatory. Speaking as one of "the morons who own guns," I'd appreciate it if we could ratchet the rhetoric down a notch or two.
Allow me to cut right to the chase by dispensing with the strawmen (and possibly mixing a metaphor or two). I do not own guns because of "the rigors of rural life." I do not own guns to feed my family. I do not own guns because I believe that I am part of a militia. The majority of the many gun owners I've known would not cite those reasons either.
I own guns for two reasons. First, I own them so that if, God forbid, my person or my family is threatened with criminal violence, I will have some defensive recourse beyond using harsh language. This is not entirely dissimilar to the reason I have an emergency supply of food in the pantry, tools in my car, first aid kits, and health insurance. It is a hedge against the unexpected hazards of life.
The second reason I am a gun owner is that I enjoy them. I find stamp collecting to be insanely boring, but as long as the philatelist is not being unsafe by forcing me to watch him soak stamps, it's his business. As I have never given anyone reason to believe that I pursue my hobby in an irresponsible or unsafe manner, I do not see that I need to justify it.
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
aj
firewire technophobe
# 1383
|
Posted
Is there a discussion on armed sky marshals taking place somewhere?
What kind of guns will they have?
--------------------
if there's no god, then who turns on the light when you open the fridge?
Posts: 2994 | From: ...on location | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Presleyterian
Shipmate
# 1915
|
Posted
Scot: We've been around the block on the number of people accidentally killed by handguns in the home vs. the number of people who have defended themselves against home invaders threatening imminent bodily harm and haven't seemed to convince one another, so let me focus on your other reason:
quote:
The second reason I am a gun owner is that I enjoy them. I find stamp collecting to be insanely boring, but as long as the philatelist is not being unsafe by forcing me to watch him soak stamps, it's his business. As I have never given anyone reason to believe that I pursue my hobby in an irresponsible or unsafe manner, I do not see that I need to justify it.
At the outset, let me apologize for describing gun owners as "morons." For those who subscribe to the "It's Fun!" School of Gun Ownership, I'd substitute "people who consider their personal jollies to be more important than the safety of their community," but somehow I don't think that'll solve the problem.
There are some activities (drag racing comes to mind) that are way fun, but they're also so hazardous to innocent people that we regulate the manner in which citizens can engage in them. As for me, I'm a big fan of lions. But I don't think it's unreasonable for the city to pass an ordinance making it illegal for me to keep two or three of them in my apartment. I may be an utterly responsible lion owner, but the risk to others is simply too great to allow my right to enjoy my little hobby to trump my neighbors' safety.
The analogy is flawed, you say. Unlike a lion, a gun can't spring out of a locked container and kill somebody. True, Scot, but to be honest, it's not your possession that I'm worried about. I have every confidence that you are a responsible owner. Who I worry about, God Forbid, is a babysitter's cranked-out boyfriend who comes over without your knowledge or consent. Or the sullen adolescent down the street who's adept at lock-picking. Or the neighborhood juvenile delinquent whose parents haven't been as vigilant about teaching the difference between right and wrong as you and Thumbprint have. Or the telephone repairman that you don't know is an ex-con. You'd have about as much control over them as I'd have over Leo and Fluffy in my rumpus room.
I'm not unsympathetic to your Reason #1, Scot. After all, I live in a real-live big city, walk around in real-live gang-infested neighborhoods, and have on occasion hit the ground after hearing real-live gunfire whizzing by. You don't need to convince me that self-defense is a serious issue.
But your purported right to possess guns 'cause you think they're way more fun than philately? Sorry, but I don't think that rationale holds up.
Posts: 2450 | From: US | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aj:
Is there a discussion on armed sky marshals taking place somewhere?
What kind of guns will they have?
Hopefully, guns that are not capable of putting a hole in the side of a plane. Even better, some form of non-lethal weapon such as plastic bullets
(well, they can kill, but have a lot less chance of doing so than a real bullet) or those little bags of lead shot like miniature beanbags that hurt but don't kill. Given the amount of civilians around when these have to be used, it seems prudent.
Actually, why can't people who want guns to defend their homes use these sort of weapons?
--------------------
Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
