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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Boxing Day Hunt; Is this a good thing?
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I am not a British subject so I cannot vote in UK but I learned to ride in 1962 and I cannot see the point of 'The Hunt'. Who benefits besides dog-breeders, horse-trainers and gentlemen's tailors? Is the countryside over-populated with foxes? What think ye?
[ 01. February 2004, 17:26: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
A former neighbour of mine in Pasadena was a member of The Valley Hunt Club but their only activity that comes to mind is dressing funny on 1 January and riding in The Rose Parade.....
We used to have coyotes behind the local golf course, but they never seemed to hunt them like English foxes. I wish someone could explain the concept of 'The Hunt' and why it was not abolished/banned at the turn of the century.....
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I cannot see the point of 'The Hunt'. Who benefits besides dog-breeders, horse-trainers and gentlemen's tailors? Is the countryside over-populated with foxes?
I cannot see the point of football. Who benefits besides footballers, club-owners and manufactures of over-priced merchandise? Is the country over-populated with inflated pig's-bladders?
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
I work in the horse industry and I'm really not sure where I stand on the hunting issue. Foxes can be a problem in the countryside as they kill lambs, piglets and chickens. You can understand why the country people who are a pretty pragmatic lot decide to combine the chore of getting rid of vermin with a cracking day out. I've never hunted as I'm far too scared to go that fast over country I don't know that well, jumping anything that comes between me and the hounds. People who do hunt say that it is a brilliant sport.
From a practical point of view there will be several unfortunate side effects if hunting is banned.
Firstly there will be thousands of hounds that have to be put down. They cannot be retrained as house dogs and would have to be slaughtered. I don't know if the anti hunt people could stomach this and the RSPCA would be forced to kill them all if they were dumped onto their rescue shelters. The horses are easier to retrain. As someone who has done it I can say it is bloody hard work!
Secondly there will be a collapse in the economy of some rural areas. The pro hunt lobby overstate their case but hunting does support areas like Exmoor and does provide jobs for the hunt workers, kennel hands and grooms. Many of these jobs come with tied accomadation and people will be forced into the towns and into new occupations which they are not trained for and don't want to do. It will mean more houses for incommers to tart up though.
A final practical point and the one that would directly affect me is the fate of dead and dying horses. At the moment the hunt will take your horse from you if it dies in the night. Without hunting you are left with a large piece of meat in your stables, you can't bury it (illegal), you can't sell it for petfood if it is already dead (illegal) and it costs of fortune to cremate it.
You can't sell your horse for meat in Europe as live exports have been banned and licenced horse abatoirs are about to go out of business as horse passports (imposed by Brussles) mean that most pleasure horses can't go into the food chain.
The RSPCA may find itself picking up the pieces as people abandon their animals. I have to restrain myself here as the RSPCA does not have a good reputation in the horsey community. They will rescue a lame sparrow if there is a film crew around but won't touch horses in distress until they are a couple of days from death.
From a pratical point of view banning hunting will cause problems for the countryside and the horsey businesses.
I'll leave the ethical stuff to someone who is wider awake.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Kev, the opposition to hunting with dogs in this country is chiefly fuelled by inverted snobbery. If, however, you are opposed to hunting (with or without dogs) then you should be out there campaigning against it where you live. I wish you luck ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) And in the meantime, if it's toffs you object to, perhaps the remedy begins with your title.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
tangent .... Do you mean St. Stephen's Day?
continueing tangent ....
No, he means Boxing Day, the term the hunts use! Anyway when St. Stephens day falls on a Sunday the Boxing Day Hunt will be on the Monday.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Gremlin
Ship's Cryptanalyst
# 129
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Kev, the opposition to hunting with dogs in this country is chiefly fuelled by inverted snobbery. If, however, you are opposed to hunting (with or without dogs) then you should be out there campaigning against it where you live.
Inverted snobbery? Nope, when I have the misfortune to see the local hunt, I feel sickened to the gut!
So much so that I cannot attend the Barrel Rolling event in our town center because the Hunt sets off from there.
Keeping the horses and hounds has to be paid for somehow, but I cannot see how this can possibly provide enough jobs to fully support the economy of any significant area, other than in a circular manner.
Gremlin, not feeling particularly eloquent today, but the Hunt doesn't exactly bring out that side of him. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...
Oh I get it... like humour... but different.
Posts: 5221 | From: Isle of Man | Registered: May 2001
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
Amos, I'm considering calling you to Hell but I'm not going to be online much over the next few days. So I'll bite my tongue and try to deal with your post in a purgatorial manner.
If you support hunting with dogs I suggest you either come up with some actual arguments or remain quiet. Instead, you decide to label the foxhunting movement as inverted snobbery.
Actually, there are people who care about animals, and aren't driven by dislike of "toffs". (On a tangent, the title of Sir isn't a toff's title as it, theoretically, is based on merit, not birth).
Of course, there are inverted snobs in the movement, but most people who actively campaign against foxhunting are doing it on moral grounds. They object to animals being killed for sport, and a large number of them are vegetarians and object to animals being killed at all.
Chapelhead- If footballs were living creatures, your analogy might have some validity. As it is, there is an obvious flaw is comparing a sport which involves killing with one that does not.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr. Gregory:
Dear Balaam
I am more accustomed to using the names and terms that the Church uses.
If we were discussing liturgy, you would, of course be right, but as we are discussing foxhunting it is more helpful to use the terms the hunts use.
Balaam (posting no more on this tangent.)
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Crotalus
Shipmate
# 4959
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Posted
quote:
A Lurker wrote:
the title of Sir isn't a toff's title as it, theoretically, is based on merit, not birth
Unless you have the good fortune to inherit a baronetcy.
Posts: 713 | From: near the knacker's yard | Registered: Sep 2003
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
There is absolutely no reason why the Boxing Day tradition of getting dressed up and prancing around the countryside following a pack of hounds cannot continue for many years. All that needs to happen is that the cruel hunting of animals with dogs needs to stop. If the hunt organisers were to arrange a drag hunt then there would be no problem (no I don't mean that all the blokes dress up as ladies!). This way, a reasonable route could be planned without trespass and all the other problems associated with the randomness of fox hunting.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Lurker, the anti and pro hunting movements have a lot of strong emotion around them. I don't share it, and, like Poppy, I'm 'agnostic' on the issue, though I do stand by my post, which you have significantly misquoted. What I said was that the anti-hunting movement was mostly fuelled by inverted snobbery. Note that word 'mostly'. The anti-hunting movement principally manifests inself as an anti-fox-hunting movement. No doubt there are sabs out preventing the working men (Christian and Muslim) of the Black Country from setting their lurchers on rabbits but they don't seem to get the same publicity. Nor do the dog-assisted shoots get sabotaged, although the intensive rearing of pheasant poults for mass (and frequently inaccurate) shooting involves the suffering of many more creatures than does foxhunting. I also believe that there are many vastly greater cruelties to animals going on that are not being legislated against and will not be legislated against, starting with factory farming. It's a huge industry; people want cheap meat, cheap milk, cheap eggs, and, for the most part, are not going to look very hard at where it comes from. If the suffering of animals is the matter we are concerned with, let us see a bill pushed through Parliament to outlaw the intensive rearing of domestic livestock. It looks very much as if the banning of fox-hunting will be a symbolic gesture, whether or not it proves successful in ending the practice.
Your confidence in the meritocratic basis of the honours system is touching, by the way; IMO it's fairly hit-and-miss, like a pheasant shoot, in fact.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
I know that there have been some hunts in Scotland similar to the English ones, but in the area of Scotland I come from we shot the pesky foxes when they caused too many problems. They still do - shoot them and cause problems. I know some people think this is also cruel, but at least it doesn't have the ripping of foxes apart. I don't see why the hunt people could not do drag hunts or some artificial thing like that.
In central London, our foxes have to deal with traffic. Although they have learned to look right and left before crossing the roads, some of them still end up flattened.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
We get a lot of flattened foxes out in the country too. Also badgers (though one hears that many of them have been shot or poisoned by farmers and then surreptitiously dumped in the road--shades of The Archers!). Your Scots must be better shots than many of the people down here, daisymay if they can take out a fox with a single shot. Do they use professional gamekeepers?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
in the area of Scotland I come from we shot the pesky foxes when they caused too many problems.
The problem can then be that foxes are wounded and die slowly. At least with a hunt the fox either ends up alive or dead, no half measures.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
If we don't hunt foxes then they will be shot or poisoned. Banning hunting will not save any foxes. They are vermin and will be destroyed and who is to say if a long slow death through poison or gangrene is better than being pulled apart by a hound.
From my biased viewpoint the anti hunt lobby do not seem to be concerned with the hounds that will be put down if hunting is banned. Neither are they concerned with the horses who are frightened by their tactics on demonstrations. I have heard of hunt sabs spreading tacks on the road to lame the horses and hounds. The source for this is pro hunting so it may not be true. However it would not be out of keeping with the virulent hatred shown by many sabs who seem more concerned with hating the riders and the class that they believe they represent rather than any cruelty to the foxes.
If the sabs are so concerned about animal cruelty why aren't they on the South Downs where gangs of men set lurchers onto hares ripping them apart. Why aren't they protesting at dog fights? Or badger baits? If they are so concerned about animal cruelty then the puppy breeding farms in Wales or the out of control ponies in some urban estates are all areas that could do with attention. But then none of the people in these cruel practices wear red coats or live in nice country houses.
If someone could convince me of a humane way to control foxes other than hunting I would back it.
If you can convince me that the screaming hatred of the hunting fraternity seen at hunts up and down the country is not class based then I could take their arguments more seriously.
[ 26. December 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: Poppy ]
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
We used to live out in the countryside.
The local estates' gamekeepers kept the foxes under control....I might be wrong on this, but I seem to remember hearing that a dog fox will protect his territory, so overcrowding wasn't too likely.
My real problem with fox hunting is that the people involved have a day's pleasure out of a pastime where the end result is the death of an animal.
I know that a fox isn't all that often caught, but any time it is.....ugghgh.
As above posts have asked...why not a drag course if it's not the killing that gives the pleasure?
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Poppy, you asked why people weren't protesting at dog fights and badger baiting. These things are already illegal and organised in secret.
I understand that hunting in order to kill foxes is illegal in Denmark, where hunting is a popular sport. This has not stopped hunting, and no hounds have had to be put down. They choose one rider, who is the quarry, and carries a fox's tail pinned to his coat. The hunt continues until another rider has captured the tail. They then have the honour of carrying the tail for the next hunt.
For the pro-hunters out there, I'd like to ask a question. I have a book written by a Scottish shepherd, called Red Sky at Night. In it, the author estimates how many lambs can be killed by a family of foxes living on his land. He contrasts this with the number of voles a fox will kill over a year. Voles eat grass and therefore compete directly with the sheep for food. He estimates that the foxes save him quite a lot of money on extra fodder by killing the voles, and this offsets the small number of losses he may have at lambing time. Can anyone knowledgeable comment on this idea?
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
The hunt seems like a particularly inefficient way of keeping down vermin. As said earlier, there is something very unpleasant about having a fun day out with the goal of having a fox torn apart by hounds. I don't know what a more humane solution might be. Is it really that much of a problem, considering other vermin that the foxes keep down?
We had a school in my district that was absolutely swarming with gophers, and one summer a family of foxes moved in and cleaned them all out. The groundskeepers were delighted, but district rules required them to get rid of the foxes before the children came back. I suppose they were poisoned. It does seem a shame. I wish I knew what the solution was.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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ptarmigan
Shipmate
# 138
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Posted
Just a couple of points.
What I dislike about fox hunting is the ritualisation of slaughter. Killing lesser animals is sometimes justifiable. (E.g. taking antibiotics, destroying a troublesome wasp nest) but making it into a ritual is distasteful.
Secondly I believe the balance of evidence is that fox hunts have no appreciable effect on the fox population in Britain. The limiting factor on numbers is available habitat; kill a few and others will replace them - fewer will die through lack of suitable habitat or food. And hunts do only kill a small number ... and don't address at all the problem of the urban population, from which the rural could always replenish. Indeed some hunts actually create habitat to attract foxes so they can have their "sport". At one stage some used to breed foxes to set loose to hunt.
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All shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be well. (Julian of Norwich)
Posts: 1080 | From: UK - Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Amos, professional gamekeepers, yes, but also all the gaffers on the farms were good shots with shotguns. I was only a kid when I had lessons in shooting. We used to practise with bottles on the dykes ( vandalism nowadays ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ). The keepers and shepherds had to be able to shoot dogs worrying the sheep too, and they definitely made sure they were dead - not much bigger then foxes. I think if you are used to using a gun regularly, you are probably more skilled. Some of the toffs who come out on the shoots need extra training for safety; they don't just damage the birds, they damage the beaters and themselves at times.
At least the birds are eaten...
And hunt saboteurs should behave themselves too. I respect the ones who don't act violently.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Flounder
Shipmate
# 3859
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Posted
As an American horsewoman who'd love to go on a good chase, but who hates the idea of animals being mauled to death and who abhors the slaughter of horses, my question is this:
Why not have a drag hunt? A drag hunt is simply a scent laid down for the hounds. There's no kill: The dogs are rewarded in some other, less unpleasant way. This way, the riders get their fun and the horses and dogs still have a living. It seems to be a much better solution for everyone than doing away with hunting altogether.
BTW, it seems to me that a well-trained hunter should be a reasonably safe, sound and versatile horse. If not, then something is very wrong with the way they were trained.
I don't know about the UK, but foxes in the US are good mousers and help keep the rodent population under control.
Posts: 1082 | From: Flounderland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Flounder:
Why not have a drag hunt? A drag hunt is simply a scent laid down for the hounds. There's no kill: The dogs are rewarded in some other, less unpleasant way.
Hunting exists only with the permisson of the farmers whose land it crosses - the farmers may or may not hunt themselves.
If the hunt does not control fox numbers there is little incentive for farmers to allow hunting on their land. Drag hunting as an alternative to fox hunting might work in the USA, it is less likely to work in the UK.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Flounder:
I don't know about the UK, but foxes in the US are good mousers and help keep the rodent population under control.
(Laughs sourly) Foxes in the UK seem to be adept at strewing the contents of dustbins all over the road as noisily as they can, and thereby encouraging the local rodent population. As if they needed it. There are now 2.5 rats for every person in the UK.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
quote:
Hunting exists only with the permisson of the farmers whose land it crosses - the farmers may or may not hunt themselves.
A Hunt was started up where we were by one of the local landowners...probably for their Holiday Guests.
The local farmers were usually tennants and couldn't object.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Flounder
Shipmate
# 3859
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Posted
Ariel,
You should see the skunks and raccoons here. They're always raiding the trash and I get to clean up after them. Lucky me. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Flounder:
I don't know about the UK, but foxes in the US are good mousers and help keep the rodent population under control.
(Laughs sourly) Foxes in the UK seem to be adept at strewing the contents of dustbins all over the road as noisily as they can, and thereby encouraging the local rodent population. As if they needed it. There are now 2.5 rats for every person in the UK.
[tangent]I could tell you plenty of (true!!) stories about our little neighbors.
For starters, there was the skunk that used to come into my tent at summer camp and try to raid my bag of soaps and shampoo. Repeatedly. In the middle of the night as I lay in bed, trying not to laugh at the absurdity of it all. Fortunately, we were never sprayed.[/tangent]
Posts: 1082 | From: Flounderland | Registered: Dec 2002
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snowgoose
Silly goose
# 4394
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Posted
I thought they hunted wrens on St. Stephen's day. They hunt foxes too?
Do they still hunt wrens? (Poor things.)
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Lord, what can the harvest hope for, if not for the care of the Reaper Man? --Terry Pratchett
Save a Siamese!
Posts: 3868 | From: Tidewater Virginia | Registered: Apr 2003
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I don't much mind if people hunt foxes. Many more die on roads than because of hunts. What angers me is the lies told by people who support hunting.
Hounds will have to be put down? All fox hounds are put down anyway. They don't make suitable pets. There is no retirement for them. When they can no longer keep up they are shot. And probably fed to the pack.
Lost employment? Hunts don't actually produce any marketable good beyond a leisure activity. It's just about money going round. It will go round in other ways.
Fox hunting is not about keeping fox numbers down. Hunting country is full of little woodlands. You can see them on a map, often called coverts. They are there in order to provide habitat for foxes so the hunt has something to do. Hunts need foxes.
No one wants to exterminate foxes. They are part of the countryside's ecology. They kill chickens when they can, and occasionally larger stuff. The answer is to protect livestock. Calling foxes vermin and saying how much damage they do is just a way of emotionally justifying hunting. It has nothing to do with the realities of farming.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Kev, the opposition to hunting with dogs in this country is chiefly fuelled by inverted snobbery. If, however, you are opposed to hunting (with or without dogs) then you should be out there campaigning against it where you live....
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I said too much too slowly and meant to add THAT MY TITLE IS Ship's Gaffer and the other is only a nickname - see 'recent posts' for ful details!
Thanks Poppy - you have provided better and more detailed background on the 'Hunt Problem' than any 50 episodes of The Archers, formerly my one-stop source for info on rural England in the 21st century.
I'll read more and write again after dinner.....
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Flounder
Shipmate
# 3859
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Posted
Hunts don't need foxes. That's what drag hunts are for.
I didn't know about that foxhounds were automatically put down. Ugh. I voted against greyhound racing in Massachusetts for that reason — we lost - but that's another thread that belongs in Hell. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Definitely agree with the following:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
...What angers me is the lies told by people who support hunting.
Hounds will have to be put down? All fox hounds are put down anyway. They don't make suitable pets. There is no retirement for them. When they can no longer keep up they are shot. And probably fed to the pack.
[Foxes] ...are part of the countryside's ecology. They kill chickens when they can, and occasionally larger stuff. The answer is to protect livestock. Calling foxes vermin and saying how much damage they do is just a way of emotionally justifying hunting. It has nothing to do with the realities of farming.
I guess I'll stick other kinds of riding, then — not that I've ever gone on any hunts anyway. One can still go for a good gallop without indulging in cruelty.
Posts: 1082 | From: Flounderland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Flounder:
I guess I'll stick (to)other kinds of riding, then ? not that I've ever gone on any hunts anyway. One can still go for a good gallop without indulging in cruelty.
Strongly Agree
The score so far as refereed by he who wd b from Devon:
Foxes: nil
Hunters: two
p.e.t.a.* one
Poppy: four
* = people eating tasty animals (but mildly opposed to fox stoles and mildly in favour of faux fur and off-duty super-models in the buff)
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Hounds will have to be put down? All fox hounds are put down anyway.
All foxes have to die as well. If we unconcerned about shortening the life of a dog, why be concerned about shortening the life of a fox?
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Lost employment? Hunts don't actually produce any marketable good beyond a leisure activity. It's just about money going round. It will go round in other ways.
The comes back to my previous post about football. It produces no marketable goood beyond a leisure activity. If it were banned and the social and policing problems it causes were removed then the money would just go round in some other way.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Fox hunting is not about keeping fox numbers down. Hunting country is full of little woodlands. You can see them on a map, often called coverts. They are there in order to provide habitat for foxes so the hunt has something to do. Hunts need foxes.
Hunts manage fox numbers. In towns and cities there are no habitats provided for foxes, and fox numbers have increased dramatically.
It is also quite possible that those coverts would be removed as an obstacle to efficient farming if they served no purpose in providing habitat. Fortunately hunting protects the environment be keeping those attractive woodlands and the habitats they provide for a great range of animals and plants.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
The answer is to protect livestock.
Factory farmed lamb with the animals kept indoors for their whole lives would indeed be one solution. Not one I would care for, though.
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Calling foxes vermin and saying how much damage they do is just a way of emotionally justifying hunting.
The anti-hunting lobby makes no appeal to emotionalism? How many children's view of the countryside and nature is shaped by Disneyfied images of cute fluffy animals with big eyes all living in harmony (even the carnivorous ones) with the exxception of wicked old humankind? Let's all work together and find Nemo.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
All foxes have to die as well. If we [are]unconcerned about shortening the life of a dog, why be concerned about shortening the life of a fox?
It is also quite possible that those coverts would be removed as an obstacle to efficient farming if they served no purpose in providing habitat. Fortunately hunting protects the environment be keeping those attractive woodlands and the habitats they provide for a great range of animals and plants.
Factory farmed lamb with the animals kept indoors for their whole lives would indeed be one solution. Not one I would care for, though.
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I am for factory-farmed bears myelf but until they come into existence, North Americans shall hunt them on foot so they won't ravage our cities, threaten our children, damage our motorcars and strew the dregs of our garbage cans which they find unappetizing all over the roadway and in private gardens!
[Edited for UBB in quote.]
[ 27. December 2003, 08:34: Message edited by: Tortuf ]
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
I think it is a thorny issue.
I do agree with Amos about the inverted snobbbery aspect. I agree because I can recognise that element of response within myself.
There are long- standing class-based resentments within British society.
Elements of this around huntin and shootin include;
the punishment of poachers trying to feed their starving families in days gone by, to preserve game to be shot/hunted/fished (whether eventually eaten or not) as a recreation
the trampling of the gardens and small holdings of ordinary people by hunts on some occasions (don't know if it happens now)
the red livery of the hunt being seen as much as a badge of class as of anything else
the possibly apocryphal stories of low ranking people being hunted down with dogs and horse;
and the hunt as a statement of power, of who is "in" this particular elite, though granted you don't have to be an aristocrat to go hunting, certainly these days
the association of the hunt with a way of life that passed with the Second World War, wiht servants & etc. (cf Brideshead Revisited which has an elegaic quality to it, remembering a way of doing things that is now lost...)
the blooding of children (smearing their faces with the fox's blood) is a rather unpleasant element of this - presumably an encouragement to them not to be squeamish about the death of the fox...but I wonder what else you can extrapolate from that. It certainly has some sort of semblance of an initiation ritual, not just to huntin, but maybe to how we do things as upper middle class overlords...
I think there is a real debate, as we see in the arguments above, about the most humane way to proceed with the need to cull foxes.
I am sure however that much of the feelings generated are to do with the class issue...if they went riding in less ostentatious gear, for instance, maybe the lower classes (such as myself) wouldn't feel their hackles rise as they drive past a hunt in full swing.
Thing is, it's not just about the fox, is it?
Posts: 5352 | From: ebay | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
I do agree with Amos about the inverted snobbbery aspect. I agree because I can recognise that element of response within myself.
There are long- standing class-based resentments within British society.......
the red livery of the hunt being seen as much as a badge of class as of anything else
and the hunt as a statement of power, of who is "in" this particular elite, though granted you don't have to be an aristocrat to go hunting, certainly these days
..... maybe the lower classes (such as myself) wouldn't feel their hackles rise as they drive past a hunt in full swing.
Thing is, it's not just about the fox, is it?
Point 1: I do too, Welsh!
Point 2: Innit?
Point 3: Really, could you talk to my distant relative Lord Lascelles and get me a steed and costume (not to mention all-expenses paid to attend from LAX or SFO including housing and car hire..)
Point 4: member of the Lower Classes? You?
Lovely Welsh, you are beyond class - though I'd have thought you were raised Upper Middle as I was, though you've outgrown it!
Point 5: Is it not? Parliament are discussing it even as we speak....... or was something resolved yesterday before the Guardian's press deadlines?????
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
As a townie, I try not to have too many opinions on "country pursuits", but I went to see the Hunt off for the first time yesterday (at Lewes).
Just a couple of impressions:
* Being Lewes, there were lots of very well-spoken people on horse-back. However, there were also lots of people with Sassix accents too.
* Some of those lovely animal lovers/anti-hunters were amongst the most stupid, hypocritical, downright cruel people I've encountered. So concerned are they about animals, they decided to TERRIFY the horses by banging, and screaming, and blowing hideously high-pitched whistles. Serves themselves right if the horses did kick out at them!
I know which side I was more inclined towards!
Thurible
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Bonzo
Shipmate
# 2481
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Posted
quote:
Hunts manage fox numbers. In towns and cities there are no habitats provided for foxes, and fox numbers have increased dramatically.
What nonsense! The numbers of foxes in towns and cites have increased precisely because we have provided a suitable habitat with plenty of food in our dustbins and shelter under our garden sheds. Fox hunting has been shown to make not a jot of difference to numbers of foxes in the countryside. Foxes in the countryside are limited by lack of food and habitat. Kill one and you make the food that it would have eaten available to another, thus making no impression on the overall population.
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Love wastefully
Posts: 1150 | From: Stockport | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bonzo:
quote:
Hunts manage fox numbers. In towns and cities there are no habitats provided for foxes, and fox numbers have increased dramatically.
What nonsense! The numbers of foxes in towns and cites have increased precisely because we have provided a suitable habitat with plenty of food in our dustbins and shelter under our garden sheds.
They are habitats suitable for foxes, but they are not provided for foxes in the sense that they are not built, put out, etc for the benefit of foxes. That foxes use them is incidental to their purpose.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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welsh dragon
Shipmate
# 3249
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
As a townie, I try not to have too many opinions on "country pursuits", but I went to see the Hunt off for the first time yesterday (at Lewes).
Just a couple of impressions:
* Being Lewes, there were lots of very well-spoken people on horse-back. However, there were also lots of people with Sassix accents too.
* Some of those lovely animal lovers/anti-hunters were amongst the most stupid, hypocritical, downright cruel people I've encountered. So concerned are they about animals, they decided to TERRIFY the horses by banging, and screaming, and blowing hideously high-pitched whistles. Serves themselves right if the horses did kick out at them!
I know which side I was more inclined towards!
Thurible
Well, I was once in the Cotswolds, in my rather small first car, with 3 friends from college, and we saw a hunt party heading our way.
I am not a hunt supporter, but neither am I saboteur-minded.
I pulled the car over to let the horses pass without frightening them.
The hunt party started doing regal waves as they sallied past. Very wave-2-3-pearls-2-3...Clearly they thought that this was the man in the street showing solidarity to hunt activity generally, which it wasn't.
I was quite irritated by this.
So I rolled down my window and booed them as they rode past.
I quite enjoyed it at the time - felt it was the right animal-friendly yet socialist course of action - although I don't know I would do that now...
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I do stand by my post, which you have significantly misquoted.
I didn't quote your post at all, apart from one word (toffs).
quote:
What I said was that the anti-hunting movement was mostly fuelled by inverted snobbery. Note that word 'mostly'. The anti-hunting movement principally manifests inself as an anti-fox-hunting movement.
This is inaccurate, my point was that the inverted snobbery is a side issue and most anti-hunting people have a moral objection to it. You may or may not share this objection, but at least admit they do have real objections to the killing of animals for sport. And animal rights activists are everywhere these days, foxhunting is just the issue the papers are covering because it is what the politicians are debating. It is the government which is focusing on foxhunting and neglecting other issues of animal cruelty, not the animal rights movement. Call the government inconsistent if you like, I sure won't be objecting!
quote:
Your confidence in the meritocratic basis of the honours system is touching, by the way; IMO it's fairly hit-and-miss, like a pheasant shoot, in fact.
That will be why I put the word theoretically in, then.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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Caro
Shipmate
# 4122
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Posted
I just wanted to say how impressed I am that this debate has so far been conducted with such civility and sense. I have seen debates on this subject on other message boards which have featured a lot of capital letters, swear words and bad spelling, so this is great.
I think a trial ban would give everyone a chance to see once and for all what would actually happen if hunting was banned. Studies could be done into the effects on the fox population and on livestock. The only problem with this is of course the practicalities of what to do with the hounds etc. while the ban was in force - I must admit I don't know how easy it is to convert to drag hunting, temporarily or otherwise. Perhaps this could be tried out in one area of the country first of all?
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
if they went riding in less ostentatious gear, for instance, maybe the lower classes (such as myself) wouldn't feel their hackles rise
I'm not sure that this would make a difference - there are about two million riders in the UK who already do just that, and most of them will be able to tell you stories of the hostility they have encountered from complete strangers without going anywhere near a fox.
Perhaps if the Government followed up a ban with a promise to legislate for better off-road access for riders, this would go some way towards cheering up former hunters and would also benefit all the other riders too.
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Dear God, be good to me. The sea is so wide and my boat is so small.
Posts: 225 | From: Ignoreland | Registered: Feb 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
In my experience the wave you give the person who has given you the right of way is modified by the necessity of controlling the horse on the highway, and the fact that you should have both hands on the reins. When you ride Western style, you're only holding the reins with one hand, so a more populist wave becomes possible. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead*
Ship’s Photographer
# 1143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A Lurker in a Pear Tree:
And animal rights activists are everywhere these days, foxhunting is just the issue the papers are covering because it is what the politicians are debating.
I don't recall seeing any mass protests at the meat counter in Sainsbury's, or picketing of the turkey farms before Christmas (or Thanksgiving).
There does seem to be a particular objection to hunting.
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Benedikt Gott Geschickt!
Posts: 7082 | From: Turbolift Control. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lurker McLurker™
Ship's stowaway
# 1384
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Posted
Not all people opposed to hunting are vegetarians. I personally object only to the killing of animals for sport. But plenty of them are active in campaigning against factory farming, etc.
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Just War Theory- a perversion of morality?
Posts: 5661 | From: Raxacoricofallapatorius | Registered: Sep 2001
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ptarmigan
Shipmate
# 138
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I don't recall seeing any mass protests at the meat counter in Sainsbury's, or picketing of the turkey farms before Christmas (or Thanksgiving).
There does seem to be a particular objection to hunting.
Yes, there is. It is the ritual aspect which is so objectionable. It is one thing to have slaughterhouses to create meat; it would be quite another if far more people than neceessary celebrated the animal slaughter by parading around in villages in ridiculous red outfits, blowing trumpets and quaffing champagne.
I'm all in favour of rituals and celebrations and fancy dress, but shouldn't our celebrations focus on the more wholesome aspects of life, rather than activities which are at best regrettable necessities?
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All shall be well. And all shall be well. And all manner of things shall be well. (Julian of Norwich)
Posts: 1080 | From: UK - Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Sine Nomine*
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 3631
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Posted
Just curious, but does anyone know approximately how many foxes are killed each year hunting?
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