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This came to mind again while reading "Why do we fear Death?" and the continuing series of threads on substitutionary atonement. So why is the deal such that atonement had to be made? Why did God want his pound of flesh?

I'll say up front that the concept of Hell is a big sticking point with me. On the one hand, God loves us; it says so in this book here. On the other, if we don't love/obey/interpret him properly we are tossed on the eternally burning trash heap of Holy Zion. Also in the book. This doesn't sound like any deity I could love. I'd as soon love Pol Pot.

Different interpretations I've heard:

• It's not God's fault. We choose to be separated from him ie in Hell.
  He just made the place/state of being and the rules of the game. But if in our mortal pain and confusion we fall out of line it's still not his fault.
• We are hopelessly sinful. Our default position is hell bound.
  And Original Sin means we have no choice in our tendency to sin. But we must grovel in our wretched state to be saved from the nature we didn't choose.
• OR in salvation of the Elect God makes an arbitrary choice of some from our sorry numbers and the rest can hang thenselves. Tough luck, suckers!
• There is a Hell for those who totally comprehend the choice of loving and serving God but willfully reject that option. But in this world how can you be sure to detach your own neurotic reponse to the pain of the world and "totally comprehend" the correct choice?

In short, how can a God who should be heads above the best earthly parent rig the game so there is a good chance you'll wind up in a situation that makes the Killing Fields look like a flowery meadow?

So I've decided to believe that while Hell may be eternal, people's stays in it may not be. If God "desires that we should turn from our wickedness and live," he can eternally be ready for us to do that. Not that I'm crazy about even a limited duration Hell. For myself, I can either believe in the eternal possibility of salvation for all (or no Hell at all) or cease to love God. Denying eternal damnation seems the better option for me.

So how do those of you who don't go that route and yet consider a God who does condemn people to endless punishment for their sins after death someone to love, reconcile it? Do you feel that as long as you are saved, it doesn't bother you that this system God set up allows others to be damned? That it's their fault and their problem about how to deal with the reality God gave them? You might help them avoid the dilemma by Accepting Christ as Their Lord and Savior™ but beyond that, God's division of wheat in the granary and tares in the fire is not a problem.

(The above is a shortish essay on Why I Can't Be a Biblical Inerrantist.)

Yeah, I really have an attitude on this subject. I do, however, want to hear why this doesn't trip up others the way it trips up me.

[ 08. January 2006, 22:00: Message edited by: Erin ]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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We are hopelessly sinful. Our default position is hell bound.
And Original Sin means we have no choice in our tendency to sin. But we must grovel in our wretched state to be saved from the nature we didn't choose.

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Yep! That's what my last church said. It was supposed to spur us on to evangelism. It just spurred me to total confusion.

I await other views.

Nic

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Yeah, I really have an attitude on this subject. I do, however, want to hear why this doesn't trip up others the way it trips up me.

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I really worry about the people it doesn't trip up. I really worry about people who have no problems with this.

One of my biggest problems with attitudes to hell and damnation is this 'moral inversion' whereby people rant about goodness and kindness and loving behaviour not being enough to save you - because it's all illusory, of course - whereas the bigger, more dysfunctional, judgmental and unchristlike a bigot you can be, the surer you are of going to heaven.

I've never believed this. It may be the view found among tabloid readers and the unchurched, and it may be expressed in right-wing redneck ways that make my flesh creep, but there's ultimately something slightly less unwholesome (and that's as far as I'll go!!) about the take that the bad people who go to hell are bad people who have done such bad things that they have chosen to sunder their relationship with the good, the loving - with God. There's something here that's better than the view that the people who go to hell are the 'good' people who loved, cared, spoke up against injustice - but weren't 'born again' in precisely the approved way.

Of course, what these indignant tabloid-reading reactionary people tend to be saying, in their own bigoted way, is that the measure of goodness is the extent to which people are like us. But in the end, isn't that what the religious bigots are saying, too?

And that' by the way is my answer to Nicodemia's post, too. That's where the confusion comes from. Start with a concept of a hell that you can mentally fill with people you disapprove of, and the idea that you know whom God disapproves of, and the end of the line is very predictable. Start with the twin notions that God is God, and God is love, and the awful possibility that one might miss the meaning of existence, which is the fulness of being in this love, looks quite different. Hell becomes a matter of our repudiation of God's love and grace, and the overcoming of God's will to bring us all (back) to himself. And what might constitute such a repudiation I don't know.

[Slight Tangent]

Hi, Nicodemia! I'm responding to your post, Nicodemia! And for the record, I think you had a point before...

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The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.
"Lle rhyfedd i falchedd fod/Yw teiau ar y tywod." (Ieuan Brydydd Hir)

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Ge 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
This is in ref to Joseph's supposed death. Is Jacob going to Hell because he mourns his son? Did he believe that Joseph to be in a place of eternal torment and suffering?

1Ki 2:6 Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. Can one go to a fiery pit in peace?

So 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Wouldn't this be a perfect place to use the word Hell with all its preconceptions? The grave is never satisfied(always waiting for more) and neither is jealousy.

Amos 9:2
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Could man "dig into" the traditional view of hell?

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. A fiery pit surrounded by whale blubber? Perhaps that is where it getrs its fuel?

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Hi, Nicodemia! I'm responding to your post, Nicodemia! And for the record, I think you had a point before...

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Psyduck:

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One of my biggest problems with attitudes to hell and damnation is this 'moral inversion' whereby people rant about goodness and kindness and loving behaviour not being enough to save you - because it's all illusory, of course - whereas the bigger, more dysfunctional, judgmental and unchristlike a bigot you can be, the surer you are of going to heaven.

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Another for Psyduck

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Infinite Penguins.
My "Readit, Swapit" page
My "LibraryThing" page

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Santa does not exist

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sniff...sob...I've just written him a letter....

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So in a sense, IMO, Hell is a state of being while one is alive, a state that will lead you to the grave without peace of mind. If we are cognizant after death, this state stays with us through our time in the grave - i.e. we are aware of the waste our life became and devoid of hope for future joy. This sense of loss and self loathing will one day be cast away by God, as will the need for graves and the fear of death; either by the salvation or destruction of those who suffer its affliction.

Np

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Very well put, np. That goes along with my feeling about being part of the "Kingdom". Our relationship with God is not pie-in-the-sky, it's a taste of Heaven now. Likewise being out of relationship with God is a kind of Hell-on-Earth although people who live apart from God may not see it that way. They don't know what belongs in the empty space that is God's place in our lives; it probably seems like the normal angst of being human.

So you think people separated from God endure "Hell" from the moment of death until- what? The Judgement Day? And if they can't find their way to relationship by then, it's on to oblivion for them? That's an interesting concept if I'm getting you right.

Jacques More-

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Jesus said it like this (in a nutshell):
"those who have done good, to the resurrection of life [they go], and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation [i.e. hell]" John 5:29

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What if we've done both, as most of us have? How much good do you have to do to balance your evil deeds? The scary thing that a lot of Hell theology leaves you scared that you don't have it right. So how does abject fear square with love? Or how does love square with anger and resentment toward such a God who would (some tell us} offer his love and care if we get it right and eternal agony if we get it wrong? We are starting to get into Pelagian territory if we do all the heavy lifting. There is grace, is their not? Will grace cover our sins, even of those who do not believe in Jesus?

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However, for assurance of salvation it is clear that a living conscious relationship with Jesus - the living God - following Him, is necessary. And once you have such a relationship the verse before applies:

"If we endure, we shall reign with Him.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us." 2 Timothy 2:12
[NB you cannot deny whom you do not know]

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So you have to know Jesus to embrace or deny him. The problem for me is that I think some people deny him because they have a flawed idea of who and what he is. Often garnered from his flawed followers.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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<snip>... being out of relationship with God is a kind of Hell-on-Earth although people who live apart from God may not see it that way.

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Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
So you think people separated from God endure "Hell" from the moment of death until- what? The Judgement Day? And if they can't find their way to relationship by then, it's on to oblivion for them? That's an interesting concept if I'm getting you right.


So you have to know Jesus to embrace or deny him. The problem for me is that I think some people deny him because they have a flawed idea of who and what he is. Often garnered from his flawed followers.

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Originally posted by Grits:
I have been interested by the sudden surge in interest on threads concerning death, hell

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Originally posted by Zeke:
...the thread on fundamentalists in Hell.

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Ouch. Couldn't you have worded that a little differently?

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Originally posted by Peppone:
But then, it's Advent: when we reflect on the Four Last Things- death, judgement, heaven, and hell. Maybe it's natural these topics come up at this time of year?

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Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
I was hoping you'd turn up Grits.

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And I was hoping all day that anyone would show up to challenge Grits, since I've pushed it to the limit recently!

On this thread and the SA thread, I hear Grits pleading with people to tell her why they:

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Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
argue[s] with scripture

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Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
I wonder sometimes if this is just a tool of Satan (oops -- another disclaimer: "I believe..."!) to keep us in a dark place concerning salvation.

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Originally posted by Zeke:
If he is not willing for anybody to perish, than nobody will, let's get serious.

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Originally posted by Zeke:
Sorry Grits.

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Lyda and Zeke, I don't believe that you have succumbed to a tool of Satan to keep you from salvation by not taking the plain as day truth of the Bible without a lot of second guessing. But Grits does. It's just a belief, though, so I hope you don't take offense and have a nice chat about it. Like Frasier, "I'll be listening!"

I see that Grits has already responded! Her sword is indeed swift!

[ 01. December 2003, 01:55: Message edited by: JimT ]

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Originally posted by Singleton:
Lyda Rose of Sharon said:

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<snip>... being out of relationship with God is a kind of Hell-on-Earth although people who live apart from God may not see it that way.

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Surely this is the only thing that matters? Subtly but truthfully trying to influence people to make them realise that? How possible is that?

How would this work as a replacement of "hell theology": "there's-more-to-life-theology"?

Apologies to all I offended or irritated. I can't stay away...

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No offence or irritation here, Singleton.

Yes, that is exactly why, to me, relationship with God, with Christ, is of crucial importance. IMO "there's more to life" -much more- is all the theology needed. No threats, just the fact that as difficult as life is on this earth, he joined us here. We aren't alone.



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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon [not!]:
I wonder sometimes if this is just a tool of Satan (oops -- another disclaimer: "I believe..."!) to keep us in a dark place concerning salvation.

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Nope that wasn't me, that was Grits.

quote Grits-

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The preceding verses tell us that "the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." There's no way I can read the Bible and conclude that there will be no one in hell. Unfair? God doesn't like being called unfair.

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If I believed that God was a cruel, unfair bastard, that would keep me in a dark place concerning salvation. And there's no use pretending I wouldn't suppose God was unfair by leaving us in a confusing world and then giving us the ultimate punishment for being angry, unhappy, and confused. I mean, he's God and already knows what I think, so being dishonest and telling myself that I can't think that way when I do think that way would only be fooling myself, not God. I realize that I may be getting this all wrong, but if the only way I can keep myself pursuing God and salvation is to reason that God can't be both more loving than we can ever possibly be while at the same time being the cruelest deity imaginable, that's what I'll do.

And only God can decide if that's good enough for him. At this point that's all I can offer. I'm a little child of God and I trust him to be my loving Father despite my errors. AND I trust that he is the loving Father of all his creation. If he can't love better than us, what's the point? In this world, love may be unimaginable and many people can't even articulate their need. So I have to believe that the God who sees into our hearts can give us what we need even if we can't ask it. I have to believe that the God of eternity has the patience to wait lovingly for us to recognize the gift- even beyond the grave.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Zeke, a little ribbing from JimT? A kinder, gentler JimT, no doubt. I myself am preparing to be flamed.

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Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
And only God can decide if that's good enough for him. At this point that's all I can offer. I'm a little child of God and I trust him to be my loving Father despite my errors. AND I trust that he is the loving Father of all his creation.

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Jacques More-
quote:
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Jesus said it like this (in a nutshell):
"those who have done good, to the resurrection of life [they go], and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation [i.e. hell]" John 5:29
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What if we've done both, as most of us have? How much good do you have to do to balance your evil deeds? The scary thing that a lot of Hell theology leaves you scared that you don't have it right. So how does abject fear square with love? Or how does love square with anger and resentment toward such a God who would (some tell us} offer his love and care if we get it right and eternal agony if we get it wrong? We are starting to get into Pelagian territory if we do all the heavy lifting. There is grace, is their not? Will grace cover our sins, even of those who do not believe in Jesus?

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Interesting stuff, Jacques.

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The hunger and thirst in view - the faith in righteousness present - seen by God within the heart, but not altogether recognised and expressed outwardly (by the individual) is a prayer to God to enable the person further to be fulfilled in that particular desire. Although prayers cannot be expressed in words uttered, because we do not know how, God knows how and does this on our behalf as a direct result of the hope in the heart visible to Him: The heart display.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Hell is hating yourself while being unwilling or unable to change.

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That explains how I felt for a few years there.

Hellish.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Originally posted by Grits:
While I agree this is certainly a parable, I don't know why that infers that the setting is not real. The other parables, while all "stories", did not take place in imaginary settings. Why would one assume this one does?

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the Good Book:
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

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Originally posted by Zeke:
NP, are you thinking of the time Saul used the witch of Endor to contact the prophet Samuel?

This whole thing sounds a lot like the thread on fundamentalists in Hell. Perhaps the discussion here will be more helpful.

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Originally posted by Grits:

The preceding verses tell us that "the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." There's no way I can read the Bible and conclude that there will be no one in hell.

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Originally posted by Grits:
I guess I'm just needing someone to explain to me the obsession you all have with needing to make God a big ol' happy teddy bear in the sky. Where does that concept come from, I wonder?

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<snip>... that Jesus speaks of when He talks about the ones who will "go away into eternal punishment" and the people in the cities for whom "it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you" and for those who, at the end of the age, will be gathered by the angels and, because of their lawlessness, will be cast "into the furnace of fire; in that place where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

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However, if I'm willing to let you have your beliefs, is it so hard to let me have mine? It's not like I'm ramming it down your throats, but I have to speak up when I see something that is so astonishingly contrary to what I believe. And I am always interested in knowing from whence certain concepts arise.

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I hope I haven't given you the impression that I begrudge you your beliefs - everyone should believe as they feel called. I think that is what God wants. Maybe one day my belief will come around to being more like yours, o yours more like mine. There is only one thing I firmly believe in: God is real. All the details are, from my perspective, speculation.


Np

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Originally posted by JimT:
Grits, when you can see yourself as Gritsdharma, arguing with the missionaries and arguing with friends that have converted to Christianity, and doing so until your death, you may get a glimpse of the universalist mind.

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This is still Purgatory, not Hell, right?


Np

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Originally posted by Freehand:
Hell is hating yourself while being unwilling or unable to change.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go burn in Grits' hell and bask in Mousethief's heaven . I want to see the face of God, without the dim glass, regardless of the scorching I receive.

Freehand

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Right on , Freehand.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Originally posted by Grits:
I guess I'm still on those words "everlasting" and "eternal" in reference to hell. I'd have to find a way to get around that.

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2Pe 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell(tartaros), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Re 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell (hades) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Re 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell(hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Re 20:14
And death and hell (hades)were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Jas 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (gehenna).

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Mt 10:28
And fear * not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(gehenna).

Mt 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (hades/grave): for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (hades/grave) shall not prevail against it.

Mt 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell(gehenna) fire.

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