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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: Taking Back the Term "Christian" From the Fundies
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
The Jack Trick threads on this board fascinate me. How one can defend such an obvious buffoon escapes me. But it brings up a larger issue. The Fundamentalists are getting to be a real embarassment for many Christians. In fact, when the word "Christian" is used in the media nowadays, it's usually to describe something Fundie. "Christian" radio. "Christian" schools. "Christian" bookstores selling "Christian" books on deep topics like "Christian" diets. "Christians" protesting the teaching of evolution in schools. "Christians" comdemning Harry Potter movies.
It's not just that such turkeys are an embarassment. They give the rest of the world the mistaken impression that "Christians" are all a bunch of ignorant buffoons.
It's tike we took the term "Christian" back! Any suggestions?
[ 10. March 2003, 00:58: Message edited by: Erin ]
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
baseball bats and extendable batons
P
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Quiet acts of love to individuals where the aim is to help or heal, rather than convert.
Engaging in debate or conversation with the world on ethical issues and listening to the other side.
Privately maintaining ones standards.
Carrying on going to the Church you want to, without feeling bad that the one down the road has 2 or 3 times the congregation.
And, the one that I find the most difficult, but is important, remembering that, while we have our differences, we are also on the same side, just holding different positions. In his father's house are many mansions, and both liberal questioners and conservative fundamentalists should accept each other, as much as we disagree!
Like the Ship really.
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MCC:
In his father's house are many mansions, and both liberal questioners and conservative fundamentalists should accept each other, as much as we disagree!
Like the Ship really.
I agree with everything you say, MCC, but to accept each other, one must acknowledge the validity of one another's journeys. If you are openly gay, or accept the validity and integrity of other faiths or have profound doubts about the theology of substitutionary atonement, to name but three, I am not entirely sure that conservative fundies can truly be accepting, because they cannot acknowledge that validity and integrity of those particular journeys. In this sense, I am not entirely convinced that all Christians are on the same side.
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
I can acknowledge say, a gay Christian's sincerity, or service, or any number of other bits of his life.
That doesn't mean I should zip my lip & never, ever mention that he's taking a razor to hunks of Scripture if he wants to justify actively living out his "gayness".
If I look at Scripture, look at the homosexual Christian, and see, even with my limited human perception, that he's not right with God, would it not be the height of Jonah-like bigotry to leave him that way? As in, "Why should I try to help him? Let him die in his sin. No room in Heaven for such."
Of course, the effectiveness of saying something to him about it depends upon
(a) whether I love him in Christ as I should, and
(b) whether he gives a flying flip about the Bible.
Just a point of view from an evangelical, fundamentalist, Bible-studying, sufferer-serving 'churches of Christ' Christian.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
The topic of whether or not gay Christians are taking razors to large chunks of the bible has been amply discussed in Dead Horses.
The topic of whether or not other Christians, including fundamentalist Christians, are taking razors to large chunks of the Bible, however, could prevent this thread from going that way.
I'll see your "made in seven days" and raise you "in Christ there is no male and female".
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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Xavierite
Shipmate
# 2575
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
"Christian" radio. "Christian" schools. "Christian" bookstores selling "Christian" books on deep topics like "Christian" diets. "Christians" protesting the teaching of evolution in schools. "Christians" comdemning Harry Potter movies.
Ok, I really can't see what's wrong with Christians setting up Christian radio stations and Christian bookstores. Although I tend to steer clear of non-Catholic Christian bookstores (after discovering one in which "Roman Catholicism", "Islam" and "Jehovah's Witnesses" were all together in the "Other Religions" section), I've found Catholic bookshops immensely useful and rewarding as places to buy stuff that doesn't make the mainstream, but for me is much more important than the latest junk on diets (I have never seen a Christian dieting book...!) and business strategies.
Harry Potter and evolution are both completely separate issues. And I think in both cases it's perfectly okay for Christians to express their doubts - even if I think they're misguided on both.
Posts: 2307 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
Apologies for long quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Arch-:
to accept each other, one must acknowledge the validity of one another's journeys. If you are openly gay, or accept the validity and integrity of other faiths or have profound doubts about the theology of substitutionary atonement, to name but three, I am not entirely sure that conservative fundies can truly be accepting, because they cannot acknowledge that validity and integrity of those particular journeys. In this sense, I am not entirely convinced that all Christians are on the same side.
Arch-, speaking as one person who believes that homosexual activity is wrong, that Jesus is the true revelation of God and therefore only way to God and is also committed to the view that substitutionary atonement is one aspect (but only one) of what happened on the cross, I guess some would count me a fundie.
I find James Barr's definition in his book "Fundamentalism" useful, which argues that fundyism is more to do with things like belief in inerrancy and desperate attempts to defend it than a belief in the Bible's authority. I would defend the latter to the hilt.
At the same time, I completely believe in the integrity and validity of other journeys, be they liberal, Roman Catholic, radical or whatever. It seems to me so thoroughly self-evident that these Christians love God and live lives which honour him. I have learnt so much from my friends of these traditions both theologically and spiritually, because so often they have got hold of a particular truth which in the past I might have overlooked, such as God's heart for the poor or aspects of liturgical practice, or theological enquiry.
In retrospect this fits so well with my understanding of the Bible's authority as so often my friends of these traditions have opened my eyes to things in the Bible which I had overlooked in my narrow tradition. I thank God for bringing these people into my life!
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
I'll see your "made in seven days" and raise you "in Christ there is no male and female".
...so Christians are hermaphrodites?
LFD
[No, but they can use UBB code.]
[ 27. October 2002, 22:38: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
I find the assumption that people, many of whom have given much study and reflection to how they read the Bible and come to different conclusions, have "razored out" chunks of the Bible pretty offensive.
I have to say that I've noticed on this board that certain conservative Christian posters really wind me up - they're the ones who seem to make the assumption that anyone who disagrees with them is just lazy, sinful and looking for an easy life or not a proper Christian - "razoring out" chunks of the bible, indeed!
I dare say on the Conservative side of things the equivalent red rag to a bull is people coming from a liberal viewpoint who jump to the assumption that they hold their views out of prejudice, stupidity or hate.
Neither attitude is helpful, and exemplars of both do exist.
I have to say that people who take these extreme attitudes IRL are the ones likely to find themselves in front of the TV cameras. It makes for a good ding-dong and a bit of controversy.
That probably has something to do with the problem but I don't know what the solution is (unless these boards are part of it!)
Louise
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LowFreqDude:
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
I'll see your "made in seven days" and raise you "in Christ there is no male and female".
...so Christians are hermaphrodites?
LFD
LFD, what do you think Paul meant when he said "in Christ there is neither male nor female"?
Moo
[Does no one use preview post?]
[ 27. October 2002, 22:40: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
Here's the immediate textual context:
"26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
(Galatians 3)
It indicates our unity in Christ, particularly our spiritual inheritence. Consider, by way of a comparison, the segregation in the temple: Court of the Gentiles, Court of the Women etc.. Now, in Christ we all have co-equal access to the Holy of Holies through the priesthood of all believers.
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Arch
quote:
I agree with everything you say, MCC, but to accept each other, one must acknowledge the validity of one another's journeys. If you are openly gay, or accept the validity and integrity of other faiths or have profound doubts about the theology of substitutionary atonement, to name but three, I am not entirely sure that conservative fundies can truly be accepting, because they cannot acknowledge that validity and integrity of those particular journeys. In this sense, I am not entirely convinced that all Christians are on the same side.
Arch and others, I come at this from the liberal doubting gay-accepting side of things. What follows is just a personal view.
What I was getting at is my responsibility to try to tolerate Christians who I disagree with, providing their behaviour is not abusive, fascistic, or murderous. It is a view I try to take with other faith journeys, if I am to do so with Non christians, I must do so with "Christians" as well. And as I say, I do not find it easy.
This is not an attack on the many Evangelicals who I have discussed and argued with, in an attempt for each of us to further our journey in faith. However, It is difficult to listen to self-righteous, moralising, pietiestic people, and while they might be fundamentalists, they might NOT: we all know people of all traditions who regard themselves as superior, more knowledgeable, or better able to quote scripture or the authority of their church at you. And it might be me from time to time!
All I'm trying to say is that I should not fall into that same trap. It is up to others to decide whether they can be tolerant, and examine their consciences about how they treat the people around them who are trying to come to God in a manner which they find different or difficult.
Jesus, IMO, was most scathing about people who excluded others from the Spiritual life of the age because they did not fit their religious stereotype or rules. So even if I disagree with Conservative Fundamentalists, I have a responsibility to see what I share, and hope that they can with me. Not always easy, and in my private thoughts I fall short of this.
But Love is more important than ideology.
So, if your religion tells you to kill others, or to "excommunicate" those who disagree or behave in different ways, I have a problem. But I do accept that my way may not be right, I do accept that I can learn from those I disagree with, (this is one of things I stay on the Ship for). In turn I hope they do as well. I can not control their reactions though!
Anyway, its something like that!
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
If I look at Scripture, look at the homosexual Christian, and see, even with my limited human perception, that he's not right with God, would it not be the height of Jonah-like bigotry to leave him that way?
Janine, I am amazed that you are able to decide whether someone else is 'right with God' or not. Surely that is a personal thing and up to each person to find out for themselves, not for us to go around telling other Christians that they are not right with God? For example, How would you react, if a gay Christian came up to you and told you that you weren't right with God? I expect you would tell him to take a running jump. So don't be surprised if he does the same to you!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Jesuitical Lad: I agree that there is nothing really wrong with Christian book stores or radio stations. Or Jewish book stores. Or Sufi book stores. The problem is that, at least in our society, the term Christian seems to equal Fundie. Are there many Christian book stores that would sell books or tapes that champion gay rights, or the idea that Darwin was right about some things? OK, there may be a few, but at least here in the US I would doubt you would find many like that. And "Christian radio" is worse.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
I'd challenge that association, Squirrel.
In my experience, Christianity is often equated with the established churches, y'know all vicars, cathedrals (and the inevitable roof fund ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) )
By the same token, I'd suggest there is a perceptual mapping between Islam and fundamentalism (where fundamentalism = militancy/terrorist-like), for which I blame the "meedja"
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I think it probably depends where you live whether LFD or Squirrel is right. Depending on who has the highest profile. In our nearby city, there are groups of fundamentalists who stand in the main shopping area with microphones on a Saturday, yelling at people that they're all going to Hell, etc. So when you are in any conversation about Christians, it is this group that people immediately start referring to and saying they don't want anything to do with. Maybe in areas where this doesn't happen, the image of a Christian is more what LFD says.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
LFD, I see that you are from Edinburgh. (GREAT town, BTW. The wife and I went there as part of our honeymoon). Maybe things are different there. Here in the US there is no official church, as in the C of E or C of Scotland. The Fundies are rapidly gaining on the more established churches, like the Lutherans or Presbyterians. In many ways, they seem to have surpassed them, certainly in terms of growth. You're probably right in blaming the media for much of the problem. When the US Catholic Conference issues a statement, it may get ten seconds on the news. But when characters like Pastor Fred of "God Hates Fags" fame do their thing, they get lots of publicity.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
Chorister - I think the street ranters/preachers are often seen as either rogue individuals or near-cultic offshoots/extremists. Local experiences, will of course vary. Either way the mainstream doesn't seem to be tarnished by them.
(BTW, despite being quite happy being called a fundamentalist m'self, these people have at best a horribly unbalanced evangel. I hold to the fact that there is a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun, but this generation doesn't have the benefit from a direct Christian heritage, so they're not natively wary of the Hot Place ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil3.gif) .) Street evangelism is near dead, AFAIK. There's too much 'static' in our shopping centers...merchandisers, homeless/Big Issue vendors, flyer distributors, buskers, street entertainers...how anyone can think someone can focus on a sermon, Hellfire or otherwise, is beyond me!)
Squirrel - I'm still getting to know The Auld Reekie myself, but I like what I see so far! I'm trying to save up for a Winnebago (sp?) trip around the USA in the not to distant future to *really* expand my horizons!
On the media note, I have a major bugbear about the mainstream media. They skew everything - not just the Christian side of things - with their selective portrayal of the world. It's getting to the point where journalism is being effectively usurped by opinion...
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
It's getting to the point where journalism is being effectively usurped by opinion...
You should stop reading 'The Scotsman' then. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
You should stop reading 'The Scotsman' then.
Heh. It's getting that way, unfortunately. I'm moving more and more to using the interweb for my news. Auntie Beeb seems to have some semblance of balance. I'll often surf several news sites, and try and pick up the bones of the issue having allowed aspects of the reporting to cancel each other out...
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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tomb
Shipmate
# 174
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Posted
Well, as a host to this board come lately to this thread (don't you people have a LIFE?) all the gay/hermaphrodite/whatever stuff interests me much less than the OP (which is saying something).
As a 'Christian' and a 'journalist', I would point out that, in Holy Scripture, the word "Christian" was initially a perjorative term. I really don't care about its fundy connotations. I find it a lot of fun to be in a situation where somebody discovers out that I'm a Christian and they say something stupid like, "but, but, you seem so Normal." It opens up a lot of doors for evangelization and sharing the love of Christ: "I am normal, asshole. What's the matter with you?"
Posts: 5039 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Of course, the effectiveness of saying something to him about it depends upon
(a) whether I love him in Christ as I should,
Which I sincerely doubt you would.
quote:
and (b) whether he gives a flying flip about the Bible.
Newsflash ... just because people don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible doesn't mean they don't care about the Bible.
tomb, my favorite one is when people say, "You're a Christian? Really? But you hang out here!"
"Here" being a cafe, owned by friends of mine, which has a sizable gay clientele. All I do is wear my Sunday clothes to lunch and sit at the counter. Sometimes one of my friends outs me as a Christian by asking me how church was. Time and again strangers at the counter have told me about how they were rejected by the churches they grew up and by their "Christian" parents, and then asked, hesitantly, if it would be okay if they came to my church.
Fortunately, the answer is yes. Even if they've been razorbladed out of their original church's roster and the family photos, the answer is yes.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
ESPECIALLY if they've been razorbladed out of their church rosters and family photos, one would think.....
cheers,
m (who is still in the parish choir because there have to be a couple of token straights)
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
I don't mind things being Christian, but why does "Christian xxx" always translate to "mediocre pap xxx"?
We borrowed some friends' car once and I turned the radio on to hear Premier (Christian) radio. After a few minutes of recycled Derek Prince I decided this was getting dumped and so I pressed the pre-programmed key '1'. Premier. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Oh well, that must have been what it was initially set to. Let's try '2'. Premier again - but a different frequency. In fact presets 3-6 were also all set to different frequencies. No matter where in London, down to Canterbury or west to Reading these people went, Premier was always on tap. Hallelujah! ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) I manually tuned in BBC Five Live...
Then just this Saturday I visited a new Christian bookshop opened up nearby. I noticed a 'Science' section and wandered over to see what latest book I could snaffle by Polkinghorne, Peacocke, Alexander, Sam Berry, or the like. A quick perusal convinced me that this section was nothing to do with science. Out of interest I counted: one book seriously discussing the implications of evolutionary theory for ethics and theology; 37 'Creation Science' books. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) Won't be going there again!
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
[tangent]
I managed to completely befuddle the staff of the LCM christian bookstore in covent garden a few months back, just after ++Rowan's appointment as ABC had been confirmed...
... I went in, and simply asked if they had any books by Archbishop Rowan.
And was met with complete blank faces. They managed to get as far as "What sort of stuff does he write?", and when I replied that it'd probably be 'theology', looked completely dumbfounded.
OTOH, had I wanted the latest in the "Left Behind" series, or the testimony of some half-famous celebrity, or a volume on how the Alpha course can improve my prayer life, cooking skills and general attractiveness, then they could have happily satisfied me.
[/tangent]
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
... a volume on how the Alpha course can improve my prayer life, cooking skills and general attractiveness, then they could have happily satisfied me.
Can it? gosh. I should go on one....
I need some cooking ideas.
Seriously though... There is a good article by Veronica Zundel in which she suggests that christian, as an adjective, should be outlawed. AFAIK it is only used in the Bible as Christian, the noun. So we can be Christians but we cannot have christian schools, notepaper, or diets.
What!? I hear you cry. Well, if you want to have such things think about what they really are - is it a school attached to a church, or run by a number of churches? notepaper with Bible verses? a diet which involves prayer (I am actually hard-pressed to work out what exactly a christian diet would be anyway).
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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UnShaggy
UnSurly shipmate
# 82
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
I am actually hard-pressed to work out what exactly a christian diet would be anyway.
Honey and locust breakfast bars?
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We are like sailors who on the open sea must reconstruct their ship but are never able to start afresh from the bottom. Otto Neurath
Posts: 462 | From: That's me in the corner | Registered: May 2001
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
(I am actually hard-pressed to work out what exactly a christian diet would be anyway).
I did at one point own a book by Neva Coyle (I think), called "Free to be Slim". There are other equally nauseating programs around such as "Slim for Him".
As far as I remember, they rely on verses like your body being a temple, the holy spirit giving you self control, and odd out-of-context things from Leviticus about a low fat healthy diet.
Interestingly enough, 123 Christian Businesses directory has no ethical qualms about partnering with 3 sites offering cheap Phentermine Diet Pills...
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
...but some of my best friends are homosexual... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I just used a hot-button example. Some esoteric spiritual example without grabbable handles wouldn't have made my point.
Since no one understood it, anyway, I'll give it up.
All I was after is, if I understand some specific action(s) to be sinful (insert any action you want), so as to hinder the Christian's walk, or to interfere with an unbeliever having the chance to hear the Good News at all...
Then, the height of hateful bigotry would be to smile and be sweetly accepting towards him/her, leaving the ignorant soul to possibly fry in Hell.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
(I am actually hard-pressed to work out what exactly a christian diet would be anyway).
There are other equally nauseating programs around such as "Slim for Him".
Oh, he said we have to be slim, did he?
Hmm... I think I missed the parable of the Diet Guru.
But it does sound like a good shortcut to bulimia.
I read Foster's Celebration of Discipline with a group once, it is on the whole a good book but has a dreadful chapter on fasting which sounds like an anorexic's handbook. I was leading that week and got very worked up, and despite reading a passage from an Anne Lamott book about her bulimia and how only by working out what she was actually hungry for when, and eating it, did she get out of mortal danger, the rest of the group just didn't get it.
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Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Time and again strangers at the counter have told me about how they were rejected by the churches they grew up and by their "Christian" parents, and then asked, hesitantly, if it would be okay if they came to my church.
Fortunately, the answer is yes. Even if they've been razorbladed out of their original church's roster and the family photos, the answer is yes.
![[Heart]](graemlins/heartpump.gif) HUG
quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:much more important than the latest junk on diets (I have never seen a Christian dieting book...!) and business strategies.
Scarily, I have seen such books. If you try you can replace everything in your life with a Christian "alternative." ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) This in fact might be one way -- to avoid that kind of over-separation from everyone else.
quote:
Harry Potter and evolution are both completely separate issues.
A good thing, too. Harry Potter and the Riddle of the Diplodocus just doesn't have the same ring.
David
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Appropriate lyrics from Steve Taylor: "Guilty by Association"
quote:
So you need a new car? let your fingers take a walk
Through the business guide for the "born again" flock
You'll be keeping all your money in the kingdom now
And you'll only drink milk from a Christian cow
Don't you go casting your bread to keep the heathen well-fed
Line Christian pockets instead--avoid temptation
Guilty by association ...
I think that sums it up pretty well...
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Ummm...to the Op,
I would be very surprised if the media in NYC think Christianity = fundy. With the extent of the RC church in the city, I would be very surprised indeed.
Secondly, if somebody thinks fundy = Christianity then we non-fundies have not been gettin our message across.
Don't blame the fundies if they have implied their version of Christianity is the only legitimate version worthy of the label Christian. They are just following in the rhetorical footsteps of Al-Queda (sic).
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
St paul and St peter, the Church outside and In Jerusalem, argued about who was true many years ago. Nothing new under the sun.
And a reminder to all not to assume that only their view can be acceptable at all times. Both sides were genuine followers of their Lord.
(Though I come down on Paul's side as far as circumcision is concerned.)
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Newsflash ... just because people don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible doesn't mean they don't care about the Bible.
Well said x1000 and then some RuthW. ++ Rowan W an excellent case in point. Why do some Christians make one's interpretation of the biblical passages on homosexuality (which are hardly numerous and easy to translate/interpret) a shibboleth of what makes you (in the phrase I will now CTH) "Bible-believing". I never heard such nonsense in my life. grrrr ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
quote:
and then asked, hesitantly, if it would be okay if they came to my church.
Fortunately, the answer is yes. Even if they've been razorbladed out of their original church's roster and the family photos, the answer is yes.
Anything we could do to pursuade you to relocate to the UK??
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Since no one understood it, anyway, I'll give it up.
If only you had.
quote:
All I was after is, if I understand some specific action(s) to be sinful (insert any action you want), so as to hinder the Christian's walk, or to interfere with an unbeliever having the chance to hear the Good News at all...
Then, the height of hateful bigotry would be to smile and be sweetly accepting towards him/her, leaving the ignorant soul to possibly fry in Hell.
The assumption here is that your understanding is greater than that of the "ignorant soul." This is of course not an assumption I share.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
It's probably better discussed in its own thread, but there is an interesting discussion point here.
If John sees Jane misunderstand a crossing signal and start to walk into traffic, what is the loving action for John to take? Should he call out to Jane and try to pull her back to safety? Or should John quietly respect Jane's understanding of the signal, and let her go on her way without comment?
If it turns out that John has misunderstood the signal, is his intervention any less loving?
If Nick sees John try to intervene, should he stop John and tell him to respect Jane's interpretation of the signal? If Nick does so, is he being disrespectful of John's interpretation?
I'm not trying to make a point for either side here. I'm only pointing out that whatever our gut reaction, it is not a simple question.
scot
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
If the Bible were as clear as streetlights, that analogy would make some sense.
The thing is, there's such a bad fog that none of us can see clearly to the other side of the street.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
(I am actually hard-pressed to work out what exactly a christian diet would be anyway)
I remember reading about a christian version of weight watchers some years ago. For their motto they took the words of John The Baptist: quote:
I must decrease so that he can increase.
Smilies seem superfluous after that, but ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Appropriate lyrics from Steve Taylor: "Guilty by Association"
[TANGENT]
Lots of Yay! Another Steve Taylor fan!
[/TANGENT]
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Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Og:
Yes, NYC has a huge Catholic population. But Catholic institutions are usually called "Catholic." Catholic Schools, Catholic organizations, etc. When the media reports on "Christian schools," for example, they are seldom talking about the Lutherans or Episcopalians. They mean the fundies. I think that the Fundies have usurped the term, and the media has picked up on this.
One cannot blame the media too much for this. Journalists report news. That's their job. If there is a huge demand for "Christian" books such as the "Left Behind" series, they will be more likely to report on that than on a scholarly piece by a theologian. Fundies are doing a lot of things that get attention, so they get in the news. And if they call themselves simply "Christians," the media will pick that up.
What to do? Well, that's why I started this thread. I frankly don't know.
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
If John sees Jane misunderstand a crossing signal and start to walk into traffic, what is the loving action for John to take? Should he call out to Jane and try to pull her back to safety? Or should John quietly respect Jane's understanding of the signal, and let her go on her way without comment?
If it turns out that John has misunderstood the signal, is his intervention any less loving?
If Nick sees John try to intervene, should he stop John and tell him to respect Jane's interpretation of the signal? If Nick does so, is he being disrespectful of John's interpretation?
I'm not trying to make a point for either side here. I'm only pointing out that whatever our gut reaction, it is not a simple question.
scot
So, does this interesting parable mean that we equate God's Love and God's Judgment with a thumping great Truck ready to squash us flat when we have mis-read God's own ruddy confusing signals. This parable only works if you buy into a theology of rewards and punshments which I have never been able to equate with divine life, both earthly or heavenly.
More to the point, perhaps, some people see a particular signal as green where others only see red. Would that we were all colour blind!
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
Arch-, you do know that parables are never meant to present an entire belief system, right? They are only useful for illustrating a single point, and if you try to stretch them any further, they break.
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
quote:
(I am actually hard-pressed to work out what exactly a christian diet would be anyway)
I remember reading about a christian version of weight watchers some years ago. For their motto they took the words of John The Baptist: quote:
I must decrease so that he can increase.
Smilies seem superfluous after that, but
Or else, there is that deeply spiritual hymn to dieting, to encourage us all to 'lose those pounds for Jeeeeeysus!'
Jesus take me as I am -
I can come no other way;
Take me deeper into you -
Make my flesh life melt away;
Make me like a precious stone:
Gall or kidney, both will do -
So I vomit when I eat;
giving everything back to you......'
Actually, the eagle-eyed among you will have noticed that from line 6 onwards, I have somewhat improved the original text..... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Obnoxious Snob
Arch-Deacon
# 982
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
Arch-, you do know that parables are never meant to present an entire belief system, right? They are only useful for illustrating a single point, and if you try to stretch them any further, they break.
Granted. But the parables chosen to illustrate any given theological point do, IMHO, reveal something of our theological positions, otherwise, why use that particular parable ?
Jesus used parables of the Kingdom to illustrate the nature of that kingdom. I believe, though you can certainly correct me, you used the parable of the 'Dangerous Crossing' to reveal something of your theology of Salvation, a theology I respect but cannot proclaim myself.
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'The best thing we can do is to make wherever we're lost in Look as much like home as we can'
Christopher Fry
Posts: 889 | From: Kernow | Registered: Jul 2001
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MCC
Shipmate
# 3137
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Posted
Doesn't it boil down to whether LOVE or RULES are supreme?
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mcc____
Posts: 419 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2002
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LowFreqDude
Shipmate
# 3152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MCC:
Doesn't it boil down to whether LOVE or RULES are supreme?
They mutually moderate: Rules not born of love are legalistic, and love not tempered by rules leads to injustice.
LFD
Posts: 625 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
Rules not born of love are legalistic, and love not tempered by rules leads to injustice.
agree with the first part of that, but i don't quite see how untempered love leads to injustice.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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JimT
Ship'th Mythtic
# 142
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Posted
I would like to add my weight as far left on this teeter-totter as I can (recognizing that it might tempt everyone to rush to the other side and launch me into a low sub-orbit over Bermuda). There was a time when I simply could not contribute to a thread like this. I'm sorry it is in Hell because I would like to give it Purgatorial treatment. Basically, I am completely with MCC's last statement. My feeling is that you can razor-cut everything from the Bible except for the second of the two great commandments--the first was just to keep Jesus from getting killed.
When Jesus was pressed for his position on all the thorny theological issues of his day, he had no problem razor cutting the entire Old Testament down to two Great Commandments. Apparently, he didn't even think you need a New Testament. But they went and wrote one anyway, made him God, and now Christians are as hung up on it as the Pharisees were about the Old Testament. Yeah, yeah, "every jot and tittle must be fulfilled, I came not to destroy the law, I am the Way, no Man cometh unto the Father but by me blah blah blah." But how should we live our lives? Love yourself, knowing that you are precious and infinitely valuable despite inevitable and forgivable flaws, love your "neighbors" in the same accepting and forgiving way, and in so doing you will automatically honor the source of all that gives rise to Goodness in Man, God. Funny, four years of psychotherapy has taught me the same thing.
That's my personal heresy. Jesus was a Man, he looked at the "fundies" of his day and said, "time to get back to one fundamental, kids--cherish yourself and others if you want to honor God." It sure as shit wasn't "call on my blood to save you from eternal torment by a God who doesn't care about anything other than this one damn litmus test." (I have to get Hellish somewhere in order to honor the rules of the board).
I suspect that the question of "how stridently should you warn The Ignorant Lost of their current Path Toward Damnation" boils down to your conception of Hell and Salvation. If Hell is Eternal Torment coming at any moment and you can only be Saved from it by believing that Jesus' blood has saved you from sin, get out the bullhorns and the Chick tracts. Nothing else makes sense. But if Hell is hatred in the Here and Now, and Salvation is the contagious spreading of Love, starting with Self and spreading out toward others, take a look at yourself through the eyes of The Ultimate Loving Parent, see others through those same eyes, and let God judge you as He will.
Now read my sig, with feeling.
Here endeth the lesson. Amen.
Posts: 2619 | From: Now On | Registered: May 2001
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