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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hell: The Evangelical-Bashing Room: a safe refuge for all of you who want to whinge
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I thought it was time that someone set up a safe, nurturing space.
Ever been upset by Evangelicals?
Feel damaged by them? Had a hard time at their hands? Did a nasty evangelical kid steal your sweets? Is your lawsuit still pending?
Been contaminated by reading John Stott? Or NT Wright?
Want to make offensive comparisons between those terrible, common Evangelicals to mad fundamentalists because it'll make you Feel Better? Or maybe you Just Don't Like Them?
Well, whinge to your heart's content here, so we don't have to hear it everywhere else all the f***ing time, already.
[ 10. March 2003, 01:33: Message edited by: Erin ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And don't forget to throw in all the inferences of how bad evangelical theology is based on the teaching of people who aren't even evangelical
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
But Wood...I've just posted on the Churchless Faith thread agreeing with you, and being complimentary about Evangelicals. And you go and start this thread.
It's like telling an alcoholic to look after a bar and saying "help yourself to a drink won't you?"
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Well this is no fun.
Reader Alexis
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
No fun?
Whyever not?
Does the idea that PEOPLE MIGHT BE REALLY BLOODY ANNOYED ABOUT BEING PIGEONHOLED, CRASSLY DISMISSED, PATRONISED AND WHINED ABOUT make it somehow less fun?
Or is the whole exercise paling somewhat?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Can I still bash liberals?
Can we point at and mock the person who's missing the point?
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
I would like to suggest that Affirming Catholics is such a mainstream evangelical organisation that I am suprised that it is not run out of Holy Trinity Brompton.
Further can anyone see the difference between Ian Paisley's Free Presby church and Forward in Faith?
Meanwhile given Benny Hinn's Othodox parent it is obvious that he should become the next Mtropolitain ArchBishop of Constantinople.
Have I caught onto the idea of this thread yet?
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
Posts: 2723 | From: Chiltern Hills | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Astro:
Have I caught onto the idea of this thread yet?
If you have please explain it to me.
Actually Wood has his knickers in a twist and wants to whinge. I don't know if I helped fuel this or not (I did say something about Sola Scriptura, but if Wood thinks that's an exclusively Evangelical doctrine, he is forgetting his history).
Some of my best friends are Evangelicals. I learned a lot and grew a lot in the period when I was an Evangelical. (Grew out of it, but that's neither here nor there.)
I have no desire to bash Evangelicals.
Now Calvinists, on the other hand,....
Reader Alexis
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Point us in the direction of the latest offender Mr Wood, (thread link please). So that we may offer our voiced or silent opprobrium.
Of course, if someone is being an arse, one should distinguish their arse-ness from their theological standpoint. People who are arses and evangelicals are likely to remain arses even after the most stunning, high camp Anglocatholic conversion experience.
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
Well, I think this thread SUX. I am not checking in here again.... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Alex, you do yourself too much credit. One swipe at a doctrine which is as you said not exclusively evangelical is not going to get me starting a thread, is it?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Oh, just read the signature, guys.
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Narcissism.
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
duchess, that's the most disgusting signature I've seen.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Alex, you do yourself too much credit. One swipe at a doctrine which is as you said not exclusively evangelical is not going to get me starting a thread, is it?
Wood, me owd sod, I don't even pretend to begin to fathom what makes you start threads.
You'd probably be happier if you werne't so doggoned Evangelical, though. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Reader Alexis
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Astro
Shipmate
# 84
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Posted
You can only bash hard liberals if you try it with soft liberals it doesn't work ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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if you look around the world today – whether you're an atheist or a believer – and think that the greatest problem facing us is other people's theologies, you are yourself part of the problem. - Andrew Brown (The Guardian)
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Liberals are WAY funner than evangelicals, any day of the week. Evangelicals aren't allowed to do anything! It's a wonder you guys get converts.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I have to disagree, Ruth. All Liberals want to talk about is sex, sex, sex. Evangelicals will at least know the ball scores.
Reader Alexis
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
Well, Hell's really thrusting on all thrusters tonight.
I don't have anything further to add.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
No, Ruth, it's LEGALISTS that aren't allowed to do anything.
Can we bash them? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Why bother?
Reader ALexis
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Wood, do you have the feeling your thread is being highjacked?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
All Liberals want to talk about is sex, sex, sex.
Wrong again, that's all conservative evangelicals seem to want to talk about -- getting their ideas about proper/improper sexual behavio(u)r codified as soon as possible so that we can all live evangelical, too. Oh, and not to forget that (at least in the U.S.) the evangelicals of the fundamentalist variety need to pack the schoolboards so that a few states can be the laughing-stock of the free world for not providing education regarding the "theory" of evolution.
And furthermore, just leave me the hell alone, okay? Don't knock on my door, don't give me your literature, I've already got as "personal" a savio(u)r as I need to have, thanks. Oh, being an Episcopalian isn't good enough, is it? I have to be a glossolalian, too? ![[Puke]](graemlins/puke.gif)
Good enough, Wood, or do you want more? There's more where that came from.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Though I'll note, I know I wasn't the one Wood's talking about -- I don't think I've ever had a serious Whinge about evangelicals, as such. It's more some of the subsets of that group that cause me heartburn.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Does the idea that PEOPLE MIGHT BE REALLY BLOODY ANNOYED ABOUT BEING PIGEONHOLED, CRASSLY DISMISSED, PATRONISED AND WHINED ABOUT make it somehow less fun?
Which is why we are getting our own back on the Evangelicals right now.
I am a member of a small but powerful Cabal whose only purpose is the Eradication of Evangelicalism within the next 20 years. Read all about us in a certain church newspaper.
Sadly however I have no beef with Evangelicals at all, just that mad sprawling beast known as Evangelicalism and Evangelical theology. So difficult to pinpoint yet so vociferous in its output.
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Tim V
Shipmate
# 830
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Posted
Mwahahaha. You might want to be nice to the evangelicals once in a while. After all, they're pretty much holding the C of E up all on their own. Piss them off too much and they might leave, allowing the remainder of the institution to do a rather nice impression of a stellar implosion.
After all, where we go: God goes. It's not arrogance, it's just self-confidence .
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Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire.
Is the weapon that I desire.
Posts: 212 | From: The crow's nest | Registered: Jul 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tim V:
Mwahahaha. You might want to be nice to the evangelicals once in a while. After all, they're pretty much holding the C of E up all on their own.
Through their regular and comitted paying of the Parish Share?
But lets get serious here. Evangelicalism is completely unprepared to deal with the Post-Modern meta shift. I'm not saying the rest of the church is prepared, but lets see what happens in 20 years or so.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And don't forget to throw in all the inferences of how bad evangelical theology is based on the teaching of people who aren't even evangelical
Indeed. Because it's all about who is and isn't in the club. If you're Conservative then Clark Pinnock definitely isn't Evangelical, if you are a Liberal Evangelical the extremists don't really count.
In reality Evangelicalism is by association, and I think young Ken and my friends in the Faith camp count, as does Pinnock.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
But lets get serious here. Evangelicalism is completely unprepared to deal with the Post-Modern meta shift.
As much as I love jargon, and forgive my anglo-saxon, but what the HELL is a meta shift?
Laura, I'm not an Evangelical OR a Pentecostal/Charismatic (although I am able to speak in tongues if I so desire, I just don't desire any more). Or a liberal. What the hell am I, anyway? Oh wait, there's already a thread about that.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
[QUOTE]Laura, I'm not an Evangelical OR a Pentecostal/Charismatic
I never said you were.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Laura, I'm not an Evangelical OR a Pentecostal/Charismatic
I never said you were.
I never said you did.
Reader Alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
In reality Evangelicalism is by association, and I think young Ken and my friends in the Faith camp count, as does Pinnock.
Yes, evangelicalism is a broad movement; it includes the Biblical innerrantists, Young Earth Creationists, charismatics and Clark Pinnock. That I incline more towards Pinnock than David Pytches and Henry Morris doesn't make me or them any less evangelical no matter how much we'd disagree on several issues.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I agree with Pinnock on 90% of everything.
So why am I not Evangelical?
Somebody please tell me!
Perhaps that is the question I am asking myself.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I agree with Pinnock on 90% of everything.
So why am I not Evangelical?
Maybe you are?
reader alexis
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Some of the best sender-uppers of Evangelicals are Evangelicals themselves (Starbelly, you know who you are!)
BTW, over on the wibsite, Neil's worship song fridge magnets are a scream ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Me, I only ever send up Great Torrington ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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likeness
Shipmate
# 2773
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
[QB]BTW, over on the wibsite, Neil's worship song fridge magnets are a scream [QB]
Wherabouts on the wibsite?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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The eye is the lamp of the body.
Posts: 464 | From: No. 43 | Registered: May 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I agree with Pinnock on 90% of everything.
So why am I not Evangelical?
I agree with Spong on some things, so why am I an evangelical?
Although it is a sad fact that the Church is divided into a number of "tribes" (for want of a better term). It is even sadder that there are people in each tribe who refuse to look for what God has to say through people in other tribes. One of the great things about the Ship is that so many people here are willing to listen to people from outside their tribe, and so willing to help others hear what God is saying within their own tribe. Listening to, even agree substantially with, the views of people outwith your own tribe doesn't imply anything about whether you are shifting to another tribe or not.
Alan
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by likeness:
[QB
Wherabouts on the wibsite?
[/QUOTE]
In 'features'
/wibblethorpe/features.htm
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
web pagehere
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
Well I thinks its clear that I have been victimising Evangelicals.
This is clearly unfair.
I now declare open season on all Christians and the entire Church.
Screw it. I'm now a Taoist.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You can't be a taoist and a Christian? I'm in trouble! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Reader Alexis
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tim V:
Mwahahaha. You might want to be nice to the evangelicals once in a while. After all, they're pretty much holding the C of E up all on their own. Piss them off too much and they might leave, allowing the remainder of the institution to do a rather nice impression of a stellar implosion.
After all, where we go: God goes. It's not arrogance, it's just self-confidence .
BOLLOCKS and UTTER RUBBISH! As far as I am concerned, the Evangelicals are what is ruining the tradition of the Anglican Church... But then I have already consigned it to burn in Hell so - there you are. Let the evangelicals burn with the church they are trying to prop up with SUCH PRIDE.
(Didn't you know that Pride comes before a fall?)
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
#Hm-hm hmm hm-hmmmm, hm-hm-hm hm-hm....Start spreadin' the n-#
Ah-hah! Here's the graffiti. "Tomb is a-" Oh, God, that's disgusting. A bit of rub down will get rid of that. Now then, who's thought it a jolly good laugh to shove all the toilet paper down the bowl? Probably Simon or fiddleback again. heigh-ho.
I've often wondered about the appropriation of lables in order to make a Point, the Point being that you are not one of Us.
Consider: the two major labels (used with approval by that authority on everything, The Boy, no less) Evangelical Christian and Catholic Christian. Now, it appears to me that both these statements are ultimately meaningless.
"Evangelical" denotes "relating to the Good Proclamation". Now, because "Evangel" is shorthand for the proclamation about Jesus, then by definition any proclamation about Jesus is "Evangelical", therefore to claim to be "Evangelical" (and thus declare that someone else is not) is somewhat missing the point.
Likewise, "Catholic". The Ekklesia is Catholic (in that it is present in all the ekklesiai) - but I don't think a person or a group of people can be "catholic" in this sense, can they? (They can of course be "catholic" in the sense of broad, like in an aesthetic, but that is not the claim being made by this label). Unless someone is claiming to be in two places at once (perhaps some people are making this claim, in which case I suggest they seek help), then a person can't be "catholic" in the ecclesiastical sense at all. So again, a rather pointless description of one's position. (Especially so when linked to the word "Anglo"; as if it's possible to be "Catholic" whilst particularising that to a particular Protestant sect or race at the same time! )
"Protestant"'s a good one too. Of course, everyone knows it derives from the "protest" of German princes against the Pope, which suggests that it's about assertion of state power than any actual theology - and we know who the greatest Protestant of all was on that score, don't we?question what kind of d
There is only one thing worse than using these redundant labels to describe oneself - using them to pejoratively refer to another with the lable you dislike.
What a sad bunch of wankers we christians are.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Boot
Shipmate
# 2611
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Posted
Personally I can see what Wood means.
And I don't think (most!) evangelicals are any less equiped to move with the times than any other branch of the church is. Lets face it, it's hard work for us all- great opportunities but also challenges.
And Nunc, after your rant in the 'Church is dying' thread, I thought you had had enough with anglican tradition? Or did I get the wrong end of the stick?
Now. NFI bashing, I'd gladly join in with that....
b
But yes, Tim V's comment was rubbish! God 'goes' (as he puts it) where he damn well likes. It's up to us to follow him, not assume it happens the other way round.
Posts: 116 | From: Essex, England | Registered: Apr 2002
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
I'm posting once more on this thread. England lost just now, so maybe I'm not in a good enough mood to do this.
Edward. I am going to say this only once.
I am going to use short words so that you understand what I am saying.
I am doing this because I like and respect you, and because I prefer doing this civilly to hunting you down and ripping your head off your shoulders.
Now bloody well pay attention.
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Sadly however I have no beef with Evangelicals at all, just that mad sprawling beast known as Evangelicalism and Evangelical theology. So difficult to pinpoint yet so vociferous in its output.
"I have no problem with Americans, It's America I can't stand."
Hmmm, remember the reaction to that one? Me too.
Point One.
Edward, you've said nice things about me and Alan Cresswell, and then condemned the basis of what makes us who we are. This is a double standard. Can you really not see how offensive it is, and why this makes me so apocalyptically angry?
Point Two
Please change the record. I'm sure you have other opinions.
I recall one of your very first posts on the old incarnation of Small Fire being more or less about how Evangelicalism is harmful, unable to relate to Post-Modernism and moribund. I called you on it then, and I've lost count of how many times you've been called on it.
We know what you think about Evangelicals. We understand it. Many of us don't agree. So why are you telling us all about it again and again and again?
You were wrong a year and a half ago, and you continue to be so. I just don't want the chore of having to call you on this every other week for the rest of my life.
Point Three
Your experience is, by your own evidence, and your own admission, extremely limited. Experiences outside of your own have been stated which have in the past conclusively proved you wrong (re, for example, Chalky in the 'churchless faith' thread).
This is the kind of thing Young Earth Creationists do.
Point Four
Your continual assertion that Evangelicalism Is Wrong smacks of the very modernist absolutism that you so claim to despise.
(Frankly, sometimes I suspect that you wouldn't know postmodernism if it did a little dance in front of you wearing a beret and waving a copy of S/Z at you.)
Seriously, all you're actually doing is (literally) condemning us to Hell. You're just using different words (Nunc is, too, right now, but since she's only trying to get a rise out of us this time, I'm not biting).
Point Five
You have this annoying habit of stating an opinion as if it were some kind of fact.
Ok.
Anglo-Catholicism is essentially harmful because it promotes an inability to commit either to Protestantism or Catholicism proper and mistakes depth for shallow, juvenile and tasteless displays of finery and class-bound sneering at other groups' practices as if they're actually important.
Hmmm. Like that?
All right then, how about this:
Alt. Worship is no more than a bunch of people who think that reinventing the wheel in the most pretentious fashion they can think of is going to get them over their inability to actually engage with the Christian faith.
Or even:
Post-Evangelicalism is appallingly harmful from its very basis because of its self-definition in opposition to an established branch of the Church and its self-denial about the culture of whinging it has created.
Are these things facts?
No, they're opinions, and they should be expressed as such.
Do I really think these things?
You'll never know.
Are they offensive?
They're bloody offensive, frankly. If anyone said them, I wouldn't need to call them, because half the board would jump on top of them and beat them into a semi-recognisable pulp.
So where do you get off making pronouncements like 'Evangelicalism is harmful from its very foundations'?
There is a major double standard that has to be addressed here. And frankly, if nobody else is going to address it, I consider myself up to the job.
Point Six
You're not really saying that your frankly narrow experience of Evangelicalism proves that Evangelicalism is Wrong.
You're saying "It didn't work for me." Well, great. Just demonstrate a bit of honesty, will you?
OK. That's it.
You want to take this further, Edward, PM me, but publicly, that's my final word on the matter.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Miffy
Ship's elephant
# 1438
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Posted
Of course it may just be the Sudafed kicking in, but I seem to have completely lost the plot here.
Would someone kindly explain what this thread is meant to be about?
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"I don't feel like smiling." "You're English dear; fake it!" (Colin Firth "Easy Virtue")
Growing Greenpatches
Posts: 4739 | From: The Kitchen | Registered: Oct 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Well, because I'm feeling lousy today, even having taken my medication, I will join in this goups hug with knives.
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
But lets get serious here. Evangelicalism is completely unprepared to deal with the Post-Modern meta shift.
Sorry, but this really does offend me. IfI translate thisinto personal terms, what you mean is everything I've been doing for the last few years is a waste of time. I either need to give up being evangelical or give up trying to be relevant.
But my explorations of worshiup and culturally relevant worship ( that is all a shorthand ) comes out of my evangelical faith, my evangelical theology, my study of people like Leslie Newbiggin and Graham Cray. If I hadto make a choice,I would just have to throw the whole thing up.
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
I'm not saying the rest of the church is prepared, but lets see what happens in 20 years or so.
You seem to think this gets you out of it, don't you? "Nobody is ready, but the Evangelicals aren't either". Sorry. Evangelicalism is AT LEAST as able to adapt to a post-modern society as any other brand of theology. 20 years or so? I guess we will still be having the same debates about the imminent demise of evangelicalism. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Ed - I have learnt a lot from you on these boards. Between you and Adrian, I have had some wonderful debates in Small Fire. I appreciate it. I had thought that you were more open than some other ac's on the ship. Please don't prove me wrong.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Dave Walker
Contributing Editor
# 14
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Posted
So... just out of interest, are ex-evangelicals (of whom there are a lot on the ship) ever allowed to talk about their experience and air opinions about where they've come from? Or does that fall outside the definition of 'Christian Unrest'?
dave
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Cartoon blog / @davewalker
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W:
So... just out of interest, are ex-evangelicals (of whom there are a lot on the ship) ever allowed to talk about their experience and air opinions about where they've come from? Or does that fall outside the definition of 'Christian Unrest'?
dave
Oh, for fuck's sake, Dave.
Yes, of course they are.
But this does not give anyone a carte blanche to say in a sweeping statement 'evangelicalism is worng'.
Please tell me you see the distinction.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
I know you didn't say there was Mr Wood, but I'd just like to affirm:
There is nothing wrong with Modernist Absolutism.
Thankyou.
Coot,
Modernist.
(In case I have not made it clear over the last 12 mths, I (see I take responsibility) believe Post-Modernism is a scourge on humanity)
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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