I echo what I said in the thread on Israel and coverage, but in milder language because of the rebuke I received from the host RuthW.
Islamic terrorism is the biggest long term threat to the freedoms of the western world. Whether it is the Palestinians behind this because of the US pro Israel stance, or it is the Afghan Taliban, or one of America's other Middle Eastern enemies Iran, Iraq or Libya you can be sure there is an Islamic motive in there somewhere.

As a citizen of the UK, I believe we should stand four square by the US which has been the guardian of western freedom for more than 50 years, as we did in the Gulf War and the Yugoslav crisis. I am against any knee jerk retaliation until we know more about what is going on, but a country such as the US can't allow itself to be a target for the jelousy of tin pot regimes.

Any new threads on the terrorist attacks on this board will be locked.

Thank you all of you for respecting the moratorium on new threads on this topic. It is now lifted.

Before posting in Purgatory, please consider whether or not you are ready for reasoned discussion of the recent terrorism and issues surrounding it, and remember that Hell is the place to vent your emotions about this highly provocative topic. As there are a lot of different things we might talk about, feel free to start a new thread if you wish to discuss one particular aspect of the situation, taking care of course to define the topic in the opening post.

Many writers (secular, Christian and Muslim) seem to continue a belief, shared by many in the Middle East and elsewhere, that the West in general, and its more powerful members particularly, can "make peace" in any area "if they want to".

Clearly, this just isn't true (take N.I. for example - close but not there yet by a long chalk).

If the expectation of any of us is that in any conflict whatsoever a third party can manufacture peace between others, then our hopes and expectations are doomed to failure. I've seen pundits condemning Western latitude in Bosnia, whilst also citing the West for mass-murder of children in Iraq through overzealousness. They may or may not be right, but I think there seems to be a false belief in Western overlordship teetering nearly upon the Divine.

This should worry us, for some folks nearly expect the same in our reaction to the events at the WTC.

In none of these circumstances are we so powerful as to manufacture the outcome to everyones perfect satisfaction, nor is anyone (Western or otherwise) so perfectly wise as required.

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Islamic terrorism is the biggest long term threat to the freedoms of the western world. Whether it is the Palestinians behind this because of the US pro Israel stance, or it is the Afghan Taliban, or one of America's other Middle Eastern enemies Iran, Iraq or Libya you can be sure there is an Islamic motive in there somewhere.

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Unfortunately there is a fanattical and fundamentalist interprtation of the Koran which sanctions the destruction of what can't be converted. While it is no worse than the excesses of medievil Christianity with its inquisitions etc, in those days no-one had the means of mass destruction which are available to modern man.

I read a disturbing letter in the Daily Telegraph today. It spoke of a school in Slough where the 15tear olds are British born but mainly of Pakistani origins. They were all laughing and cheering as the news broke on Tuesday. That says a lt about the apalling state of race relations in Britain. One of our American friends can correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that although racial tensions and bigotry exist in the US, most Americans whether they are black, Irish, Hispanic or Jewish feel American and believe in America. As we have seen from the recent riots in Bradford and other cities, we have large communities in the UK which have no sense of belonging and no wish to belong in any way to our society. They despise our culture and want to plonk down a little statelet from Asia in the middle of Yorkshire of east London.

When the Japanese Americans were interned, FDR, Hugo Black, and Earl Warren all agreed to trample on the civil rights of American citizens. These three leaders, who were otherwise great liberal (in the old-fashioned sense) democratic leaders, failed to uphold the ideals of democracy and betrayed their fellow citizens. And a terrible injustice was done to thousands of citizens and legal residents.

Today terrible things are happening to people in the US who appear to be of Middle Eastern descent. There have been death threats and hate mail, vandalism and beatings. This is appalling to every decent person everywhere. But it is not sanctioned by our leaders, and it is not silently condoned by the majority of the populace.

Racial inequities and prejudices persist in America. But we're better than we used to be, and we'll become better still. The internment of people of Japanese descent has been invoked again and again in the last few days as a cautionary tale: remember what we did, remember how wrong it was, and learn the lessons of tolerance, acceptance and brotherhood that history teaches.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world and I have no idea how the US and its supporters could achieve that aim without the loss of innocent lives. As has already been said 90 per cent of the population of Afghanistan has probably never heard of the WTC. We should have learned from the Gulf War and its aftermath. After more than a decade of sanctions both military and economic against Iraq, Saddam is still there and I don't suppose he has ever gone hungry the way so many poor Iraqis have.

Of course every diplomatic pressure should be put on the countries which harbour these people in an attempt to get them to hand over the perpetrators but it is unlikely to be effective. To launch bombing raids against Afghanistan may have no effect in terms of flushing out bin Laden and a ground war is virtually unthinkable. As Britain in the 19th century and Russia in the 1980's discovered the Afghans aren't an easy people to beat in their own mountainous terrain.

And Ruth, you make a valid distinction between the racist reactions of today and the Japanese internment. I agree they are different. I would like to believe things are much better now and that we have learned our lessons. I hope in some ways we have. Yet it seems we have quite a ways to go as well.

Also, I am very disturbed by the blurring in many minds between the Taliban and the Afghan people. The latter are victims - a thoughtful letter I received this week from an Afghan American compared them to the Jews and the Taliban to the Nazis.

In this crisis, there remains the opportunity to do the right thing. What that is is not obvious, but the military route seems too "easy" and destructive to be right.

I agree that we need to distinguish between the suffering Afghan people and the leaders in the Taliban. The horrible irony when all the lackwits are saying "Nuke them back to the Stone Age" is that so many Afghans are already living in deplorable and unconscionable conditions.

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Originally posted by Erin:
PS -- I would be extremely surprised if the US decides that airbombing Afghanistan is a viable option. Anyone with an ounce of military strategy can see that the terrain renders this absolutely useless.

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nothing would suprise me at the moment...

I believe that retribution is justified in the circumstances but also think that it will be very difficult to convict Osama bin Laden if we adopt our own rules of evidence.

If we do not give the same degree of justice to the supporters of terrorism are we not using double standards and playing into their hands? The actual perpertators of these crimes have after all already perished in the holocaust of their own making. We must be absolutely sure that Osama bin Laden's regime was the main conspirator and is therefor culpable before we take action.

In my view we must also look carefully at the reasons why so many of the Arab peoples feel such animosity toward the West and toward the USA in particular. Do we adopt double standards when we speak about justice. Do the Palestinians, for example, get justice when their homeland is invaded by Israel?

Good can come of this only if we focus on the underlying causes of the hatred. If we consider ourselves to be truly Christian then we must do unto others as we would have them do unto us. That, practically speaking, means that we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, visit the imprisoned and we must do it even if it is at the expense of our own comfort. If we show the compassion of Christ and give ourselves to others in His service we will conquer the hatred and fear in His name.

YIC

I had to laugh when I read this one...It's real obvious, from their carefully-worded condemnation (of the terrorists' bombing attacks) and their statement of support that stops short of volunteering to join-in w/ the US-backers who intend to take military action...that Russia sure hasn't forgotten what happened to them in Afghanistan.

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do you really think the US government learned nothing from the Russians' failure in Afghanistan?

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Originally posted by JohnW:
" Happy is the man who pays you back for what you have done to us--who takes your babies & smashes them against a rock."
We can justify anything in the Bible.

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Originally posted by Amos:
I would be very surprised if O. bin L. had any bank accounts or investments of the conventional sort owing to the Islamic prohibition on usury. I recall reading somewhere that he used hundi--the Indian subcontinent's system of local money-lenders and notes-of-hand. These would be virtually impossible to trace.

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I have read somewhere this week that he is, in fact, invested in the U.S. and foreign stock markets. Moreover, he made a huge amount of money these last two weeks by selling insurance stock short before the hijackings. The insurance stocks went way down after the hijackings, of course.

I have no way of knowing whether this is true. If it is, it is horribly ingenious.

It seems that although people are using the word "War", it must be a different kind of struggle. A World War would be in no-one's interest. It might result in an earth with no living animal life whatever.

I think the word war is being used figuratively, in the same sort of way that we might talk about a war on drugs. The war on drugs does not include the invasion of or bombing of targets in drug growing countries; it is carried out more subtly.

I hope and pray that an emerging coalition against terrorism will proceed with wisdom and subtlety, and set out to cause the minimum amount of "colateral damage".

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What is often missing from these considerations, as far as I can see, is the acknowledgement that there is not one terrorist in the world.

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Originally posted by Moo:
I have read somewhere this week that he is, in fact, invested in the U.S. and foreign stock markets. Moreover, he made a huge amount of money these last two weeks by selling insurance stock short before the hijackings. The insurance stocks went way down after the hijackings, of course.

I have no way of knowing whether this is true. If it is, it is horribly ingenious.

Moo

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It seems clear that someone or some group has made a huge amount of money in the stock market as a result of the terrorism.

An unusual number of put options for insurance companies and airline stock were sold during the weeks preceding the terrorism. Now these options are worth much more than they were then, and the buyers have a very large profit.

Amos, you said that bin Laden probaably would not be invested in the stock market because that would be usury. I think this would apply to the bond market but not the stock market. When you buy stock, you do not lend money; you become a part-owner of the company.

Doctors, Nurses, a proper Health Service, teachers, money and resources for long term development, people who can build homes, plan communities, sit and listen, hear the cries of the dispossessed and poor for whom the vision of the Kingdom is for. Then, perhaps, young, passionate men would not burn so much with hatred that they become blind to their own humaniy or the humanity of others.

What is the cause of their hatred of the US?

I believe with my heart and my mind that those thousands of people did not deserve to die. But I also believe that with the world's desire for justice must go a severe self-examination.

Britiain and the US's foreign policy in the middle east needs to be examined and critiqued with more energy than it has up to now.

Now is a time to remember Vietnam and the Gulf War and to ask hard questions about how to resist violence.

I certainly believe that more people dying will not help.

God Bless the families and loved ones of those killed in NY and Washington.

May God also bless the mothers and children and wives of the men who committed this terrible act.

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Originally posted by Arch-Deacon:
Let us take as many B52 bombers(or their contemporary equivalent) and bomb the hell(literally) out of Afghanistan with:

Doctors, Nurses, a proper Health Service, teachers, money and resources for long term development, people who can build homes, plan communities, sit and listen, hear the cries of the dispossessed and poor for whom the vision of the Kingdom is for.

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The problem with this is that the doctors, etc. we might send in would be at serious risk of being arrested as spies and sentenced to death.

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Originally posted by Ferg:
I also believe that with the world's desire for justice must go a severe self-examination.

Britiain and the US's foreign policy in the middle east needs to be examined and critiqued with more energy than it has up to now.

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Erin wrote: Last week's attack should have absolutely zero bearing on any change in foreign policy (other than, "now we're going to hunt your sorry ass down like the dog you are").

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Then they will have most certainly made the US into a vengeful, violence worshipping state that collectively views people as animals.

Anger, yes, justice yes! Dehumanising justification of violence No!

Please, spare me the self-righteous attitude. We collectively view terrorists as animals because that is what they are. They are the ones who have decided that our way of life and theirs cannot coexist on this planet. They are the ones who have decided that the only course of action is to systematically destroy every American on the planet.