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Originally posted by Renee:
Must be a great place to live, eh, Riley, where you can insult anybody who isn't like you and then tell 'em to get over it or risk further assault.

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You completely missed what I was saying. I was saying if you talk about someone who isn't like you, then that is bad. I would assume most Australians consider americans and brits to be the same as us - I know I do. The only real difference is we live in different places.

On that thread people said things like, "My father is Welsh and my mother is Irish, but I've lived in England all my life." This person obviously does not see himself as simply English.

I compare this with the attitude of my son-in-law, whose father immigrated from Canada and whose mother immigrated from Sweden. He is aware of his heritage, but he considers himself American pure and simple. He would be startled if anyone suggested otherwise.

In the same way, if someone immigrated to America as an adult, and twenty years later said that he considered himself American, people would not argue with him. I have the impression that if someone immigrated to England and later said he considered himself English, he would get an argument. Brits, please tell me if I'm right about this.

Where I live, we ask people how long they've lived in California, and if they say something like five years, we say, "Oh, well, then you're practically a native."

My husband has lived in Wales for all of his adult life, but would hesitate to say that he was Welsh. The Gremlin has lived in Wales since 1988, and has learnt Welsh, and has two bi-lingual daughters. If people ask him *what* he is he often replies "English by birth, Welsh by habitation, and Scottish by marriage."

I have just asked Hannah (7)
bb: Are you Socttish, English or Welsh?
H: Welsh.
bb: What am I?
H: Scottish.
bb: What is Dadi?
H: English
bb: Doesn't that make you half Scottish and half English?
H: [nods head]
bb: So what are you, are you half Scottish and half English or are you Welsh?
H: Welsh.

I have called myself British on these boards a couple of times, but shuddered each time I did so. I should stop the shuddering, and just accept that it is a label that some people use for me.

I think that being Scottish gives me a different outlook that people who are British. But as I have lived in Wales for 10 years now my knowledge of Scotland is historic. So that is why I am "a Scot, living in Wales."

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I have called myself British on these boards a couple of times, but shuddered each time I did so.

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This is something that I am slowly coming to terms with, and trying to revise my current impressions. I suppose that I am guilty of being anti-British. I don't think that I would ever want to describe myself as being British, but I hope that I can learn to accept being called British without the shudders, and without the negative images that appear in my mind.

I'm not represented by any of these. If someone speaks/writes in such a way as to show they think I am, they are both racist and stupid (or is that redundant?).

Like Erin, I have grown up against all sorts of prejudice.

And for Riley: prejudice based on one's own experience is still prejudice.

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My point, Riley, is that those jokes here are considered offensive. As in not funny.

I'm not sure what to think of your "brit, oz, yank, all alike" concept, since you were so adamant a few posts ago on the subject of "the rest of the world hates you, so accept the truth and get over it." It might be a good idea to take your own advice on the subject.

As for spelling things out, well, don't strain yourself ma petite. We know who you are.

Perhaps the way to have dealth with Apartheid in South Africa was laughter? Where would they be today?

And what about those Jews killed in WW2? Should they have just laughed? Should the allies have just laughed rather than racing to free them?

We might as well laugh about the present-day enslavement of Christians and animists in Sudan, since we're not doing a hell of a lot about it. As a Christian, though, I find myself crying, not laughing.

I do have a point to make, though. While the end result is fairly disparate, I would not necessarily agree that anti-American (or English, or Welsh, or any other nationality) comments are harmless in comparison to anti-Jewish sentiment, or apartheid. True, it is unlikely that six million Americans are going to be led to gas chambers in London or Sydney. But it is indicative of an "us vs them" attitude that we really should be in the business of eradicating.

What is this concept of "friendly rivalry"? Sounds like another attempt to justify antagonism. Happens everywhere - lived in a village where people used to complain about people moving into the area from 7 miles away!

I would use examples of what you say about the other team during a sports match, it's not necessarily true, but it's not intended to bring harm.

Over the last couple of days as a result of reading this thread I've started reflecting on whether I harbour and / or promulgate negative prejudices against US people. (We liberals are always open to challenge and change ) If I have come across that way I apologise.

One of the best ways of challenging stereotypes is to meet and learn about people who we might think we can pigeonhole, and find out they might e different. I guess the Ship is one way of doing this.

As I have said before I have US friends and others I have met who do not fit the stereotypes, but I guess that doesn't mean I have no stereotypes.

Two questions to broaden the conversation slightly:

- is it okay to hold and express preferences or distastes for cultural entities (e.g. businesses, cuisines, political ideologies) which are associated with a particular country?

- Are we moving into the area of Political Correctness? (I ask that as one who tries to be PC though I dislike the negative way the term is iused; I prefer the word "courteous").

Pt

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- is it okay to hold and express preferences or distastes for cultural entities (e.g. businesses, cuisines, political ideologies) which are associated with a particular country?

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Of course it is! Macdonalds is a business associated with the USA, and I think many on these boards would express distaste with their employment practices, and their obtaining beef from countries that are destroying natural habitats to create cattle ranches. (But tehre are lots of 'good' American companies)

As for cuisines, I have little liking for Mexican food (in contrast to my wife). This doesn't mean I 'hate' Mexicans of course!

Regarding political ideologies, I do not by any means 'hate' the continent of Europe. I would rather live in it than Africa, Asia or Australia, for example. But I do 'hate' the European Union (as it currnetly exists), and regret that the UK is a member. Enthusiasts 'for' the EU have had a lot of success in 'demonising' opponents of it as being 'anti-European'. That is NOT (generally) the case. THE EU IS NOT EQUAL TO 'EUROPE'. (Just as the Bush adminisstration is not equal to 'the Americans'.)

In 1994 a young black man was killed. His name was Stephen Lawrence. The investigation into his murder, by white youths, was totally botched and a public enquiry was held into the way the police handled the case.

Drawing on conclusions that Lord Scarman had come to in 1981 after race riots in London, the McPhierson Report - which you can find here, see especially para 6.6 onwards - made widespread the phrase "institutional racism". What both Scarman (no wilting PC liberal he) and McPhierson made clear was that this wasn't deliberate or malicious or even conscious, but rather the outworking of unchallenged, un-thought-through attitudes, the consequences of which are that people are treated badly. Stephen Lawrence's killers don't seem to have been caught not because there was any deliberate racism ("Oh, it's only a black guy, so let's not bother") but rther the underlying assumptions of that particular police force - the effect of which was that this crime wasn't as thoroughly investigated as others.

You can see it happening in other cases - there's a black guy in London who has been stopped eight times by the police, although he has committed no crime. His name is John Sentamu and he's the Anglican Bishop of Stepney.

It's this unconscious prejudice which I think is a good example of an "unintentional sin" - we may think we're not prejudiced, but the consequences of our actions show that we are. It also suggests a laziness on our part about considering whether we might have prejudices that need challenging. It's what the rites of the Western churches call sins of negligence - you don't even bother sthining about them, but the consequences are there to see.

Do any Americans get upset when they are called yanks? That's what I mean.

Incidentally, if you do I apologise, I don't mean it in a bad way lol

A black man getting pulled over by the police because he's black is obvious rascism and is terrible. But freindly rivalry would be on the basis of a country, regardless of whether you are black, white, yellow, green, whatever, and regardless of your background.

Actually I don't think I'm alone, but I think jokes about any ethnic group that ride on a stereotype of stupidity are offensive. I hate to listen to Irish jokes, and I usually interrupt the teller with: 'Ah yer. I don't like ethnic jokes'.

Irish jokes share a common theme, where the humour turns on an assumption of stupidity or backwardness of the Irish people. Where a nation has been oppressed in its recent history, jokes that rely on a negative stereotype of a nation are insensitive and offensive.

I like Ireland a lot, and have some Irish ancestry, but I like, and will continue to like, good 'Irish' jokes. In Eire itself, they tell jokes about the people of County Kerry.

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
In Eire itself, they tell jokes about the people of County Kerry.

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Equally, I can't really comment on Australians as a group because I don't understnad the dynamic of Australian culture from the inside.

What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech?
Leeches drop off when you die.

My exgirlfriend (a lawyer told me that).

You can understand a culture, and its peculiarities, and therefore the resultant humour that plays on those quirks. I don't want to live in a world which puts EVERYTHING said, including humour, through a 'politically correct' filter.

My wife is an accountant, and so am I (well, I'm an auditor). I have no problem whatsoever with jokes based on the (sometimes mistaken) assumption that 'accountancy is boring'. A lot of it is. And auditing can be off the end of the scale!

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Originally posted by Riley:
So do you like jokes like,

What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech?
Leeches drop off when you die.

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Not particularly because:

(a) it's not that good a joke;
(b) it suggests that lawyers are somehow selfish and do not provide a necessary service within a society, which we do;
(c) it further suggests that lawyers are somehow morally less appreciative of their fellow human beings than leeches, which we're not.

The joke perpetuates the lie that laywers are mean-spirited and self-serving. I get the same "abuse" from those in our local rag who seem to think that public sector workers are fair game for charges of dishonesty and incompetence. Why should we have to put up with such ignorant bile? It gets tedious, disheartening and ultimately makes you wonder why you bother committing your career to serving such ungrateful idiots who know sweet F.A. and only acknowledge your existence when they think you've don esomething wrong.

Alaric - you prove my point. You can laugh at "accountant" jokes because you are one. (Birth is not the only criteria for legitimately being able to comment on a culture - I respect Julian Wintle's view of Wales because he has opened himself up to the "other-ness" of the culture and is charitable enough to acknowledge this, rather than pass comment out of ignorance.)

Story on BBC

Some years ago I saw a wonderful Canadian film called: 'True Confections' (a young Jewish woman living in Winnipeg(?) in transition from adolescence to adulthood).

Thus americans who did not choose to be US citizens (or decensdants of those who did not choose) tend to indentify themselves differently e.g. African-Americans or Native-Americans.

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Also the USA goes back to the 18th century while most european countries are 19th or 20th century creations.

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Are you trying to be ironic here? France goes back to the 9th century, if the Treaty of Verdun (I think it was) which split the Carolingian Empire three ways, marks its start. (The western 'portion' after that division correponded closely to 'France', and developed into it).

http://www.mousethief.com/dpgj.html

an example from my own situation. i am a member of al anon (the 12-step program for friends and families of alcoholics). people in alcoholics anonymous tell al anon jokes. the first time an aa person told me one, i felt like i'd been slapped in the face. however, this past weekend, i was at an al anon convention, and one of the sessions was on humor. the person chairing the session started with a joke that was actually ruder than the first joke... but i laughed hysterically, and so did the rest of the room. why? because when an aa person told a joke like that, they were laughing at me. when the al anon person told the joke, we were laughing at ourselves.

for the record:

why do al anons make love with their eyes closed?

because we hate to see an alcoholic have a good time.