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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pagan beliefs (was Set up)
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
Infiniatrian (I really really hope I spelled it correctly!) posted:
quote:
I would be interested to know more generally about how you -- or any pagan -- derive your beliefs, in the absence of a scriptural canon, organised clergy or generally agreed-upon tradition. But I think that probably is a matter for another thread.
So I will start a thread about this after I come back from holiday on Monday. If any of you have any other questions, points of interest, objections ect please post them here. I will read this entire thread (if there are in fact any post other than this one to be read) before I create the actual informative (hopefully) thread. If there are more objections than signs of interest I will not begin the thread at all.
Thank you for your input. ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
[edited title to include topic]
[ 07. September 2003, 18:27: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Nibblewit
Apprentice
# 2588
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Posted
I would be really interested to learn more! Looking forward to the start of the thread.
Posts: 17 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Apr 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I'm looking forward to it, too.
I've wondered how far back do identifiable influences on your faith go? The impression I've gotten is that modern pagans draw on a rather anonymous tradition because of the past difficulties of maintaining any tradition in the face of opposition from Christianity over the centuries. Are there Elders within the faith who remember a chain of belief or practice from, say, a couple hundred years ago?
I'm not trying to challenge you to legitimize your faith through precedent. Hell, if the whole thing got wings fifty years ago, that's fine. Everything has to start sometime, and if a spiritual hunger arose and some creative people found a way to meet that need, more power to them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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MadKaren
Shipmate
# 1033
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Posted
and given that there may be a lack of tradition as such, what do you use as a frame of reference for new stuff?
Madkaren
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Why do people who claim to love God embarrass him in public?
Posts: 866 | From: Jumping along the line between genius and insanity.... | Registered: Aug 2001
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
Are you influenced at all by the Druid culture and spirituality? A lot of modern pagans seem to be; at least I assume this from having visited a number of websites on Druidism. I ask this in a very positive way, because I find the Druids fascinating.
I too look forward to a very interesting thread.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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Orb
Eye eye Cap'n!
# 3256
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Posted
Firstly, what's your personal reason for posting here?
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“You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it is nowhere.” Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed
Posts: 5032 | From: Easton, Bristol | Registered: Aug 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
HOSTLY NOTE
Asdara, thank you for offering to tackle this topic. It should prove to be interesting and informative. I would caution you that pagan beliefs are not likely to be treated any more gently than most Christian beliefs are treated around here. Don't offer anything you aren't willing to have picked apart.
In the interests of keeping the board tidy, please continue posting on this thread instead of starting a new one. I'm going to edit the title to make it more descriptive of the topic.
scot
Purgatory Host
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Duo Seraphim*
Sea lawyer
# 3251
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Posted
In your beliefs, is morality influenced and defined by religion? Do you accept a moral code outside religion?
And a second, unrelated question : is it god, gods or God (outside of Christianity, Judaism or Islam)?
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2^8, eight bits to a byte
Posts: 3967 | From: Sydney Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon:
I'm looking forward to it, too.
I've wondered how far back do identifiable influences on your faith go? The impression I've gotten is that modern pagans draw on a rather anonymous tradition because of the past difficulties of maintaining any tradition in the face of opposition from Christianity over the centuries. Are there Elders within the faith who remember a chain of belief or practice from, say, a couple hundred years ago?
I'm not trying to challenge you to legitimize your faith through precedent. Hell, if the whole thing got wings fifty years ago, that's fine. Everything has to start sometime, and if a spiritual hunger arose and some creative people found a way to meet that need, more power to them.
I'll take this one, and wait for Asdara's response to Infinitarian's question before I engage in that much broader discussion from the OP.
The classic text on this question is Ronald Hutton's 1999 book Triumph of the Moon. He's the first true academic to consider the issue (at book length, anyway). He shows that, while there were many relevant threads and forces in the few centuries leading up to the creation of Neo-Pagan religions they, essentially, did take wing fifty years ago. Most Neo-Pagans I've met through my Trad basically accept this position now though it would not be hard to find people even ten years ago who honestly believed that Neo-paganism (or, at least, their particular branch of Neo-Paganism) was a survival of a single pre-Christian religion. A few fundamentalists (yes, there are fundamentalist Neo-Pagans) still believe so despite all evidence to the contrary.
Hutton explores several documentable influences in the book. Clearly, Western occult traditions are part of that heritage including Theosophy, Rosicrucians, The Golden Dawn and Crowley. Oddly, Hutton fairly thoroughly shows that the village wise women and cunning men of England, though they certainly existed, were a marginal influence at best. Equally surprising is the fact that English Romantic poetry was an extremely important influence, and, in fact, the prevalent Neo-Pagan duotheism can by traced back to the popularity of Diana and Pan as subjects for that era of poetry.
Hutton focuses on Wicca in particular, but there are also many Classical Pagan Revivalists who focus on recreating the practice of specific ancient religions to the extent that historical records, and both anthropological and archeological research permit them to do so. Few revivalists claim an unbroken lineage of worship, however. But, clearly, to the extent the available materials permit the influences go back much further in those cases.
As for the Elders, its pretty clear that the originators of many traditions did try to convince the people that they taught that theirs was a true Pre-Christian survival. Some of the first students believed and some were skeptical even back in the early 1950's. However, the power of Goddess worship tended to overcome the shakiness of various Traditions' origin myths. I certainly have found Goddess worhip to be extremely powerful and moving, but I know exactly who created my Tradition and how she did so.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Do you see your beliefs as 'true' in an objective sense? If so what are your reasons for belief?
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insert amusing sig. here
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English Ploughboy.
Ship's tiller
# 4205
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Posted
In the depths of the English countryside there is still a lot of folk tradition with a pagan basis.Ploughboy picked his gooseberrys yesterday and left one or two for the fairys. Most of the Downs churches are built on ancient burial grounds which are pre-christian and a lot of the Christian festivals have a pre-Christian basis. In fact one could argue that modern Christmas as celebrated by the majority of people in this country is more of a pagan than a Christian festival. Personally I would see paganism as the nature religion of our ancestors which has now been replaced by a deeper revelation of God revealed to the world through Christ. Celtic Christianity is a beautiful way for the pagan to assimilate his faith into the infinate depths of the knowledge of the love and compassion of Christ. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Christmas: celebration of un-created love let loose upon a needy world,
Posts: 386 | From: Sussex and Rwanda | Registered: Mar 2003
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coffee jim
Shipmate
# 3510
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Posted
If you accept that the roots of your belief lie very largely in the last century, and that historical paganism is almost irretrievably lost...then where do your gods come from? Do you have to 'make them up'? And if so, isn't that a bit like real-life Dungeons and Dragons?
Posts: 367 | From: Belfast | Registered: Nov 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Please don't be offended if I use my dog to try to understand this, I do that with everything - sort of like Ralphie Wiggins and his cat.
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Each day my dog takes one of her dry kibbles out of her bowl and sets it aside. I think its either; - A sacrifice to the dogfood god.
- A superstition like the "berries for fairies", or
- An instinct to leave seed to grow more dogfood.
I tend to understand Paganism as a combination of these three things, religious instinct, superstition and natural law all combinied. I don't think there is anything bad or evil in any of it except insofar as it might keep one away from Christianity which, of course, I see as the "best " path, or I wouldn't have chosen it.
Please tell me where my thinking is wrong about this, because I'm sure it must be.
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
I don't think there is anything bad or evil in any of it
Well, there can be. The Nazis brought back their own version of Paganism (Neo-Paganism some might insist) and were obviously well known for their sociopathic hatred of Judaism, but were also openly hostile to Christianity. William Shirer's classic book about the Third Reich talks about this a great deal, especially the role of Alfred Rosenberg in brining back pre-Christian rituals and mythology.
I'm not bringing this up just to broadside Pagans, but to point out that it is not purely benign in all of its manifestations.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
But it's not necessarily paganism that was a fault with the Nazis. Evil people can have religion too, and many people have used Christianity as an excuse to persecute, for example, gay and black people.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
But it's not necessarily paganism that was a fault with the Nazis.
The 'green wing' of Nazism is a vast topic. But there is an argument at least that the fetishing of the idea of 'nature' fed into fascist thought.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
But it's not necessarily paganism that was a fault with the Nazis. Evil people can have religion too, and many people have used Christianity as an excuse to persecute, for example, gay and black people.
Absolutely, like anything I suppose it can be used for ill and for good. My point is that it has been used for evil purposes by some people (perhaps in the most organized form by the Nazis), and therefore is subject to the same extremes as other religions and also carries some of the same historical baggage.
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Christianity gets blamed for the Spanish Inquisition and evil orphanages. And the Crusades.
Islam gets blamed for what happened on Sept. 11th 2001.
Socialism and atheism both get blamed for Stalin.
Right-wing politics gets the blame for Pinochet (and Thatcher, obviously).
And then we go and blame paganism for Nazi Germany?
What's the fallacy here?
It's that we blame ideologies for what people do. In the end, it's up to people to use or abuse their ideologies as we see fit. It's not the ideologies' fault.
Ideologies don't kill people - people kill people, to paraphrase an organisation for whom I otherwise have little respect.
Hitler wasn't so much a pagan (although he espoused a sort of mystical "aryan pagan" mindset)- he was more a lapsed catholic with an interest in practising the occult and a line in well dodgy views on ancient history.
I think we should also be aware that the stereotype of the pagan as a crystal-collecting fuzzy feminist who weeps every time a squirrel stubs its toe and who hasn't the faintest idea about history (yes, I'm talking about YOU, Silver Ravenwolf) is in fact as false as saying all Christians are like the fundamentalists who everyone so hates.
Before Asdara gets back, go check out http://wicca.timerift.net for a good, balanced view of the Wiccan branch of paganism, its history and its ethos; some people here are occasional visitors to the site, a couple of people there (notably Nightwind, who is a fine example of a Pagan We Like) have returned the compliment.
[footnote: This is by no means an order, but it might be advisable not to invade the bulletin board there en masse. I'd advise you to read the site itself, but there are already three or four Christians there and a mass invasion wouldn't be very nice for anyone. Be respectful, people, even if you don't agree with a word of it.]
[ 04. July 2003, 13:47: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
And then we go and blame paganism for Nazi Germany?
What's the fallacy here?
It's that we blame ideologies for what people do. In the end, it's up to people to use or abuse their ideologies as we see fit. It's not the ideologies' fault.
Ideologies don't kill people - people kill people, to paraphrase an organisation for whom I otherwise have little respect.
I wasn't aware that anyone had hitherto blamed paganism for Nazi Germany on this thread. Perhaps you could show who did this, and where?
Of course ideologies kill people. You are buying into the liberal myth of the sovereign autonomous individual. Individuals do not act in a social and ideological vacuum. I am far more likely to go out and kill someone if I am continually exposed to an ideology which would allow me to make sense of that action.
What we think matters, and what we think about things of ultimate value matters especially. It is for this reason that threads like this one are interesting and important. And it is for this reason that Wally and I raised (very mildly) the question of the political (mis)use of pagan beliefs.
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insert amusing sig. here
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
I wasn't aware that anyone had hitherto blamed paganism for Nazi Germany on this thread. Perhaps you could show who did this, and where?
Of course they haven't - yet; however, I've heard this a lot from people who fail to see the irony.
quote:
Of course ideologies kill people. You are buying into the liberal myth of the sovereign autonomous individual.
Don't ever call me a "liberal", buster.
Also, I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not buying into anything. Unless it's into the "not typing posts in a clear enough fashion" club.
And, more importantly, I guess I am buying into what seems to me (note emphasis) to be the self-evident truth that human beings have the ability to twist even the most noble and decent of ideologies into something self-serving, hateful and evil. And this includes Christianity and paganism, socialism and Islam and everything else.
quote:
Individuals do not act in a social and ideological vacuum. I am far more likely to go out and kill someone if I am continually exposed to an ideology which would allow me to make sense of that action.
Sure, but these tainted ideologies get identified with the real ideologies, and are twisted by people for their own ends.
quote:
What we think matters, and what we think about things of ultimate value matters especially.
And how does that contradict what I am saying, exactly?
[ 04. July 2003, 14:10: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
Woah, steady...
'Liberal' as in sociological/ political, not theological, which seemed a fair description of your position.
I don't disagree with anything you've just said, but then it seems to me that you're not actually disagreeing with anything I (or Wally) has said. Difference of emphasis perhaps. You choose to emphasise individual agency. I choose to emphasise social/ ideological determinants. But we both recognise the existence and importance of the other. Fair?
Back to paganism..
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insert amusing sig. here
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
Fair enough, D.O-D.
One thing about paganism: In my (13-years-plus experience of pagans and paganisms) I have noticed, on the whole, that pagans (blanket term) in the States are more likely to be balanced and aware of history. You're more likely to get American pagans admitting that the "old religion mother goddess" thing is a load of old bull and to be comfortable with the idea that just because something is new, it doesn't mean it's not right. Sure there are what some call "fluffy bunnies" in the States too, but they seem to be a smaller proportion. And we have Murry Hope and Kevin Carlyon. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
On the other hand, every single British pagan I have ever met has believed:
- That they were the true followers of an "old religion";
- in the true origin of history in Atlantis;
- that 9 million pagans died in "burning times"...
This of course doesn't mean that all British pagans are complete loons. Just all the ones I've met.
Does anyone else have an experience of British pagans that differs? I'd really like to be prven wrong in this.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jerry Boam
Shipmate
# 4551
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Posted
Happy Fourth to all my fellow countrymen.
<Nazi/Pagan Tangent>
A note on the Pagan/Nazi connection: It's absolutely true that a number of Nazis actively worked at creating a Neo-Pagan Nazi mythos, but this has to be seen as Nazis creating Paganism, not a widespread Paganism creating Nazism. Some elements of German Christianity, on the other hand, had for so long preached the virtue of nationalism and hatred of the Jews that those widespread, popular and centuries old Christian traditions have to be seen as essential to the development of the very worst of Nazism. I don't think that this massively documented fact can be fairly employed as an indicatory that there may be an intrinsic evil in Christianity.
</Tangent>
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If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
Posts: 2165 | From: Miskatonic University | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Does anyone else have an experience of British pagans that differs? I'd really like to be prven wrong in this.
Well, I've only met and shared ritual with one British Neo-Pagan, and so, obviously, I can not draw general conclusions. However, Fred (Lamond) was one of Gardner's initiates, and so you might expect that he would be more likely to be holding onto the pre-Christian survival myth and the inflated magnitude of the "Burning Times". I found him just as open-minded as most American Neo-Pagans about the history of Wicca. I was pleased these several years later to see that he was interviewed and cited in Hutton. Fred's a genuinely nice guy and a stalwart worker towards broad ecumenical accord and understanding.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
<Nazi/Pagan Tangent Continued>
quote:
Some elements of German Christianity, on the other hand, had for so long preached the virtue of nationalism and hatred of the Jews that those widespread, popular and centuries old Christian traditions have to be seen as essential to the development of the very worst of Nazism.
Do you have some specific examples to back this up? Assuming you’re talking chiefly about Luther’s legacy of Pauline subservience to the state and his late in life lashing out at the Jews, that’s a mixed bag. He advocated taking away the primary source of Jewish livelihood (usury) when they didn’t accept the evangelical reforms or banishing them outright, but neither happened as I recall. His most caustic and violent writings were actually directed at the German peasantry who rose up in revolt with Thomas Muentzer, and that was a movement under an extremist Christian banner. I don’t think the Jews by in large suffered anymore in Germany than they did in other parts of Europe, and probably fared better than in Russia or Spain and Portugal before the horrors of the Second World War.
I would agree that latent anti-Semitism in German culture (not just Christianity) was part of what made the Nazi’s successful and that many German Christians were either impassive or complicit to its worst crimes. It’s difficult to say whether the Christian element in particular was essential to its development as you stated though. The Nazis clearly saw Christianity as a perversion, first to be subverted and ultimately disbanded, so I don’t think they thought it would be part of their way of succeeding. I see the influence of someone like Nietzsche as essential to what was the worst of Nazism, perhaps that’s my own bias. The Pagan part I believe was the product of the fantasies of a few, not a widespread movement as you rightly pointed out. I also think it was German Christians like Niemoller and Bonhoeffer who showed a great deal of the strongest willingness of people within the Reich to stand up to the state and to take action to bring its madness to an end.
</Nazi/Pagan Tangent>
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fatprophet
Shipmate
# 3636
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Posted
I wonder which branch of wicca you belong to Asdara (if any) - are you a Gardnerian Wiccan or
Alexandrian for example.
I know that modern wicca was written down and formulated for a wider audience from the 1930s on by certain eccentric enthusiasts but that it claims to originally be a collection of received wisdom passed on in an unbroken line of tradition by witches (at least the one's the Christian's didn't burn) village wisewomen and folk tales that go back centuries, if not millenia. Correct me if I'm wrong Asdara(?)
I know people want to ask if pagans believe the gods, spirits and energies invoked by Wicca "exist"?. I understand that Paganism does not hold to the rationalist's dichotomy between object reality and myth and I guess a lot of Pagans would question the question. Reality can be psychological and buried in a collective unconscious and still have a very powerful effect on the world (quantum physics suggests that the subjective mind can shape the objective world) and in any event all religions posit a transcendent reality that is not testable by science, or objectively observable. Therefore we cannot criticise paganism by insisting it can rationally prove its worldview. Anyway why can't they have gods and spirits if we can have a god and angels?
P.S I once got in trouble with fellow members of my Uni Inter-Faith Society because I invited the resident Pagan Society to give a talk on their beliefs to the group (I was chairperson). I was shocked to discover how my previously very "liberal" christian friends (who were fine about "major world religions") had some huge bee in their bonnets because they thought paganism was really evil. I hope there isn't any repeat of that attitude here (now with evangelicals one might expect it... ![[Wink]](wink.gif) )
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FAT PROPHET
Posts: 530 | From: Wales, UK | Registered: Dec 2002
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English Ploughboy.
Ship's tiller
# 4205
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Posted
As a small boy down on the farm I accidentally met what I can only describe as a wood spirit or something. It scared me to death and I ran like hell.
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Christmas: celebration of un-created love let loose upon a needy world,
Posts: 386 | From: Sussex and Rwanda | Registered: Mar 2003
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
<Nazi/Pagan Tangent Continued>
I would agree that latent anti-Semitism in German culture (not just Christianity) was part of what made the Nazis successful and that many German Christians were either impassive or complicit to its worst crimes. It’s difficult to say whether the Christian element in particular was essential to its development as you stated though. The Nazis clearly saw Christianity as a perversion, first to be subverted and ultimately disbanded, so I don’t think they thought it would be part of their way of succeeding. </Nazi/Pagan Tangent>
A good book on this subject is Daniel Jonah Goldstein's book Hitler's Willing Executioners which (it's a few years since I read it) I think corroborates this view.
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
Okay, hi everybody. To start off with (not nessasarily in any order resembling the order these were asked in)
What type of Wiccan is Asdara?
I actually don't think of myself as "wiccan". I branched out of wicca into a more vast paganism about three years into my studies and never looked back. I was (and can still be most closely associated with) Faerie Wicca when I extended my beliefs into the general paganism and incoporated ideas from various family history and personal insight. I would refer to myself (if pressed to catagorize myself) as a Spiritualist Pagan Witch. (I add the witch because not all pagans practice magick--most do, but others do not--and I think it's a distinction that should be recognized)
god, gods or God?
Well it works all of those ways actually, depending on the person you're addressing or your own deity system. I use gods and goddesses, some people also use Lord and Lady (wiccans mostly).
History of Wicca/Paganism?
Mertseger did a great job answering that, and I have only one more thing to add. We know there was what we would call pagan worship in ancient times (The Greeks and Romans are concrete examples of this even if you leave out Druidism entirely) paganism has been around for a long time. Why? Because it's an extremely broad term and almost anything can fall under it. Tribal customs in africa could be considred "pagan". There's just no direct, down the line progression of passing the traditions from one generation to the next as was origenally claimed by the begginners of the movment (and if you have any questions about Crowley ect address them to the more knowledgable Mertsger because I never really had much interest for him so much as for his work)
Druid infulences?
Yes. Most wiccan and pagan beliefs take from Druidic practices then and now. What we know from archeology ect we use and then adapt it to today's world. (Obviously sacrifice of living creatures is much less accepted today then it was back in their time and so we have mostly phased it out--we don't like killing roosters or pigs any more than the next person I assure you) Many druidic runes (the tree alphabet), solar observations, and general festivals are incorporated into the wiccan and pagan traditions.
Origen of gods/goddesses?
No, we do not "make them up" although I've been asked that enough times that I'm not offended that you might think so, it's seems a fairly common misconception. Many pagans and wiccans think of the god/goddess as Lord and Lady. Each has three seperate aspects. For the Lord it is the Hunter-the Father-the Wise Man. For the Lady it is the Maiden-the Mother-the Crone. These titles are the general titles and the way many pagans and wiccans think of their gods. (Much like God for you is also Jehova -I think?- but you all call him the more generic God) Some pagans and wiccans also have patron deities (depending on their deity structure) like Athena or Diana or Brigid who they will use in place of the Maiden or Mother and Hera or another goddess used for the Crone. The same can be done with The Lord or god.
These names and figures are taken from previous pagan cultures and have basis in history and myth most all of the time. Which leads us into the next question.
Do you consider your gods/goddesses to be 'real'?
Yes. But how we think of our gods is a matter of much debate among ourselves. There is a school of thought that all the gods exist separate from eachother and individually are powerful and unequal. The Morrigan is The Morrigan, not just an aspect of the Crone.
Another school of thought is that all the individual deities are aspects of one energy that is Nature beyond the Natural (One who is All yet remains One in perpetual individuality and union) and these aspects were created by humanity to better carve a pathway to understanding what can not be understood, but can be communicated with.
There are many other thoughts but these are the main two I have discussed at length. I subscribe to the second.
Moral Code?
"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" is the wiccan rede. Our One Commandment as it were. I support it, but it is overly simplistic if you do not read more into it. We have emotions, a concience, and a heart. We learn responisbility for our actions at our parent/guardian/ect 's knees. Being a moral and good person does not require a strict moral code filled with injunctions and consequences. It merely requires the desire to be the best person you can be and fullfill your potential. Paganism and wiccanism are all about full-filling your potential. Culitivating yourself to yield a better you. If you are going for this (as you should be as a proper pagan or wiccan and not a fluffy bimbo) then you have all the moral code you need right there.
If that's not enough there's always karma. What you do will come back to you somehow in someway. If you put out more positive than negative then you will be ahead of the game. There are no strict 'rules' though. Unless you have a strict deity.
Finally, what are my personal reasons for bringing this up?
Well, I was asked a few questions to start with, but that was only a prompting. I like talking about my beliefs as much as you all do. Also, I believe in knowledge being the key to ending prejudice. If you know more about pagans and wiccans perhaps you can educate the next person you see that says "Oh, them?!! They're all devil worshippers." and make the world a better place.
Plus, I think everytime I explain my beliefs to others I find a better understanding of them within myself.
Okay, thanks for all the questions. If there are any I missed or any new ones just post em up here.
(Sorry such a long one, there were a lot of Q's to cover )
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
It merely requires the desire to be the best person you can be and fullfill your potential. Paganism and wiccanism are all about full-filling your potential. Culitivating yourself to yield a better you. If you are going for this (as you should be as a proper pagan or wiccan and not a fluffy bimbo) then you have all the moral code you need right there.
I guess to me, a moral code like that does not offer a lot. What I read seems like a religion of personal fulfillment and not corporate salvation. I am probably truly undecided as to what I am, but to me the underlying strength of Christianity is its emphasis on facing ones own shortcomings and flaws and shedding ones desires for personal fulfillment in order to bring about the best for the many. To say that most people, myself included find this near impossible to do, to me does not detract from the potential of the ideal. I think Christianity is quite correct in deeming the gravest sin to be that of pride, and I think pride is what seeks fulfillment in itself.
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
Yikes, so much to reply to! My pardons if I miss anyone's question. If I don't address is, would you mind asking again?
To Scot, who warns that our beliefs my be picked apart here - if I was worried about that, I wouldn't be on this board. I belief that if beliefs appear to need to be picked apart, then maybe they need to be picked apart. So I'm not expecting anyone to hold back.
I'm a solitary eclectic Wiccan. I've learned from books and correspondance, not through a coven, and ascribe to no formal tradition such as the Gardnerians or Alexandrians (becasue I've never been trained by one). I cannot speak for Pagans. People who call themselves "Pagans" can come from a wide variety of religions that have very little to do with each other other than some influence from older traditions. Pagans can't even decide who all counts as Pagan. So, to simplify, I just want to make it clear that I'm only going to talk about Wicca.
While it was once claimed that Wiccan was ancient, that claim was built on faulty academic history at the time (along with some possibly creative imaginings of Gerald Gardner, the founder). I accept my religion to date to the 1950s, when Gardner first started publishing his work. While we have been influences by older traditions, we've borrowed the material piece-meal and formed it into something completely new. Just because one can point to pagan origins for certain aspects of Christianity doesn't mean they're any less Christian, and so too with Wicca. Religions do not exist in a vacuum. But just because there's influence doesn't mean there's continuity or lineage.
Gardner claimed to have been taught by the New Forest Coven, although there's been very little evidence of its existance. If someone is claiming they can trace a Wiccan lineage back hundreds of years, I therefore would think them a victim of fraud or a fraud themselves.
I believe my gods exist. I believe other people's gods exist as well, or at the very least I have zero business declaring that they don't exist. Why do I believe in them? Gut feeling mostly. There's a certain resonance I feel with a few of them, and they are the ones I work with. When I read of them, I feel a connection, and when I cast a circle I feel what Christians I imagine would call "being in the presence of God."
The whole Druid/Celtic thing is a dodgy issue, because of how little we really know of them. They never wrote religious information down themselves, so all we have are what the Romans wrote about them, and the myths the Christians set to writing hundreds of years later. I generally work within the Celtic pantheon, but I don't believe for one moment that I'm recreating their religion.
Wicca has adopted some superficial Druidic trappings, but that's about all. Our four main festivals take Celtic dates and often the Celtic names, but often the meanings vary differently even from what we historically DO know about the original holidays.
The framework that I use comes from Gardner, modified by 50 years of development. Since I'm not a Gardnerian, I'm not theoretically privy to everything he taught. However, most of his stuff has gotten into public circulation at this point through various avenues. But I can't give a logical explanation why I find Gardner's framework "right". I investigated a lot of religions before I dedicated myself to Wicca. Wicca just seemed right to me. That may sound like a cop out answer, but I also personally think that's how religion should work. It's not an issue of proof. It's an issue of something deeper and inexplicable.
When I say I find the other religions wrong, I mean they're wrong for me, not that they are objectively wrong. I believe that the untimate power of divinity is largely beyond our comprehension, and that we attempt to understand it through our understanding of God or gods.
I started posting on this board because I had been invited over here by a couple of your members who had shown up on my forum. I stuck around because you guys are reasonable folk who I can have intelligent theological discussion with. I think there are things I can learn about faith from people of other religions. I also, honestly, like being asked these sorts of questions. It forces me to consider questions I've never even asked myself. Occasionally I've even gone "you know what, I'm NOT doing that for any reason other than I read it in a book. How lame." (I'm not attempting to dis belief in the Bible with that quip. More alike you believing something just because Jerry Falwell says so)
I think we generally use religion as a vehicle for morality but that it does not actually reside within religion. I know Wiccans who are scum and Atheists who are much better persons than I. I credit my ethics to my family. I was raised strongly Christian, but my morals didn't evaporate when I left the Church. I don't think many of you would find my lifestyle immoral.
Is this all a bit like Dungeons & Dragons? Only if you consider any new religion to be Dungeons & Dragonsish. Usually this comparison comes up because of the belief in magic that most Wiccans have. Magic, while not identical to prayer, is still far closer to prayer than D&D-type magic. (but that could be an entirely different thread, or a private message should anyone care)
There are things that work in religion and things that don't. Just because I don't go throught he same motions that the Celts went through doesn't mean their gods can't hear me. I learn as much about the Celts as I can, but I know I'm not emulating them. But I do think what I do reaches at least those I feel closest to. I'm sure my method is not the only way of reaching them, and that there are plenty of methods that don't. (My favorite being a story of someone who asked an angry war goddess to bless a peace rally. I mean, duh.)
Like I said, I approach the Celtic pantheon, and I disagree with Asdara about the number of Pagans who simply worship the Lord and Lady. That concept is largely Wiccan, in my experience. If you're Asatru, you're following the Norse pantheon, Religio Romana follows the Roman panthon, etc. Lineaged Wiccan Traditions speak of the Lord and Lady in place of certain specific deities they are simply not naming. There are a good number of eclectic Wiccans who worship simply the Lord and Lady or God and Goddess, but that's a relatively recent development and not one that I personally subscribe to.
And, as a final note, I do play Dungeons & Dragons, and I don't find there to be much similarity at all between my hobby and my religion.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Wood
The Milkman of Human Kindness
# 7
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightwind:
Is this all a bit like Dungeons & Dragons? Only if you consider any new religion to be Dungeons & Dragonsish. Usually this comparison comes up because of the belief in magic that most Wiccans have.
To be honest, the Spiritual Warfare/Rapture/ Prosperity movement that exists within certain sectors of the Christian church has much more similarity to D&D than most branches of paganism...
[ 07. July 2003, 16:00: Message edited by: Wood ]
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Narcissism.
Posts: 7842 | From: Wood Towers | Registered: Apr 2001
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
Every group has its weirdos. I just came across a book the other day that attemps to teach "Wiccan magic" in terms of *gag* Harry Potter, up to and including a section on Defence against the Dark Arts. A review of it on Amazon states it teaches you how to fly. I can only hope the reviewer was joking.
The Witch and Wizard Training Guide
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:
One thing about paganism: In my (13-years-plus experience of pagans and paganisms) I have noticed, on the whole, that pagans (blanket term) in the States are more likely to be balanced and aware of history. You're more likely to get American pagans admitting that the "old religion mother goddess" thing is a load of old bull and to be comfortable with the idea that just because something is new, it doesn't mean it's not right. Sure there are what some call "fluffy bunnies" in the States too, but they seem to be a smaller proportion. And we have Murry Hope and Kevin Carlyon.
On the other hand, every single British pagan I have ever met has believed:
That they were the true followers of an "old religion";
in the true origin of history in Atlantis;
that 9 million pagans died in "burning times"...
I'm guessing, but I suspect that this may be because the US came into existence after a revolution, whereas the British society tends to legitimate itself in terms of tradition. So I suspect that Americans are more comfortable with the idea of religion as something new and gleaming, whereas the British like it to have a patina of age. It's the same reason that English Socialists invariably harp on about the history of the labour movement and trace their ideological antecedents back to Lilliburne and Winstanley or the way that some Anglo-Catholics like to pretend that Anglicanism stretches back to St Augustine of Canterbury. If one's society is based on a breach with tradition, then tradition is less important as a form of legitimation.
On the other hand, when I was in New York I did spend five minutes watching a lady, on public access TV, who was a specialist in Atlantean Tarot and who claimed that there was an Atlantean scroll tucked away in the paws of The Sphinx, so American pagans aren't immune. Perhaps it's the equivalent of 19th Century American millionaires marrying their daughters into the English Aristocracy.
[ 07. July 2003, 16:45: Message edited by: Professor Yaffle ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
It merely requires the desire to be the best person you can be and fullfill your potential. Paganism and wiccanism are all about full-filling your potential. Culitivating yourself to yield a better you. If you are going for this (as you should be as a proper pagan or wiccan and not a fluffy bimbo) then you have all the moral code you need right there.
I guess to me, a moral code like that does not offer a lot. What I read seems like a religion of personal fulfillment and not corporate salvation. I am probably truly undecided as to what I am, but to me the underlying strength of Christianity is its emphasis on facing ones own shortcomings and flaws and shedding ones desires for personal fulfillment in order to bring about the best for the many. To say that most people, myself included find this near impossible to do, to me does not detract from the potential of the ideal. I think Christianity is quite correct in deeming the gravest sin to be that of pride, and I think pride is what seeks fulfillment in itself.
I don't see that fullfillment of self is a bad thing to be part of the Christian package. Our primary injunctions are to love God, love others, and love ourselves. I don't think fulfilling ourselves is intrinsicly sinful. It only becomes a problem when it is out of balance with our other obligations. Love is not limited; we don't have a small quantity to parcel out between God, neighbor, and self.
I get the impression that for the pagans religion isn't about "salvation". If you don't think that people are basically bad and flawed then salvation doesn't come into it. But if you think that you are basically good, the aim of "self-fullfillment" ie becoming the best person you can be is a worthy goal.
On the other hand, there is nothing in "an it harm no one, do what you will" that says you have to become a better person, so developing your own moral code seems rather optional. You are quite free to be a "fluffy bunny". ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
So for our contributing pagans, what is the essential force in your personal faith?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
quote:
I get the impression that for the pagans religion isn't about "salvation". If you don't think that people are basically bad and flawed then salvation doesn't come into it. But if you think that you are basically good, the aim of "self-fullfillment" ie becoming the best person you can be is a worthy goal.
This is true.
Essential? My relationship with my goddess. Being able to "look her in the eye" without guilt that comes from wrongdoing, without shame that can come from thinking you are less then you really are, and without self-righteous pride that can come from thinking you are more than you are.
Being my true self and being okay with my true self are the essentials to me.
That and knowing that I am following my personal ethical code to the best of my ablities.
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
So for our contributing pagans, what is the essential force in your personal faith?
To better understand Deity and grow closer to it, which I believe will make me a better person overall.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
Well said Nightwind! ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
Neo-Pagan morality is one of my favorite topics to think about and discuss. The first thing that most Neo-Pagans to point on the topic is the Wiccan Rede, as stated by Asdara above. While I agree with the content of the Rede, I truly dislike how it is stated. The Rede as stated is commonly confused by people with two almost diametrically opposed precepts which preceded it: "First, harm none" from the Hypocratic Oath and "Do as you Will shall be the whole of the Law" from Crowley.
Let me state what I believe the Rede says without the anachronistic language used by Gardner: "If an action causes no harm, then that action is not morally wrong." The Rede in this form is neither a statement of non-violence (like "Do no harm") nor is it a statement of licentiousness (like "Do what you want.") It merely says that morally wrong actions are contained within the set of actions which cause harm. There may be actions which cause harm which are not morally wrong as well (like participating in a just war for your country), but the Rede does not speak to that.
The biggest issue that the Rede differs from Christian morality is sex. We can quibble on the definition of "harm", but under the Rede if sex between individuals is done safely and responsibly then it is not a sin without regard to commitment or love between the participants. In fact, the earliest Neo-Pagan groups called themselves "fertility religions" rather than "nature religions", and sex was incorporated as part of the ritual, at least in privacy after the coven had met and departed. Neo-Paganism (at least those parts which follow the Rede) remains broadly a sex-positive religion even if sex is only incorporated symbolically in the ritual these days.
Since Neo-paganism does not tend to have a moral code beyond the Rede, most Neo-pagans look to other sources for their morality. Functionally, most Neo-Pagans I have met tend to be utilitarians though few would know of or have read Bentham or Mills.
What is truly interesting and significantly more restrictive about Neo-Pagan morality than Christianity is the fact that most Neo-Pagans do not believe that the field of morality is restricted to interactions between humans. Thus, interactions between humans and animals, humans and the environment, humans and the spirit worlds, groups of humans with other groups of humans, and groups of humans with the natural world must all be examined in terms of their morality as well. For instance, many Neo-Pagans believe that the harm inflicted by mankind on the environment is not only dangerous to human survivability but morally wrong in itself. Thus, in a way that might seem strange to some Christians many Neo-Pagans who are much, shall we say, freerer in their personal life can be stridently moralistic in their participation in environmental causes. We love our Mother and seek to protect Her.
Neo-Paganism is a broad term as will be repeated throughout this thread, and so it is hard to speak in generality about it. However, I would not be so quick to dismiss it, in general, as a self-centered religion focussed merely on improvement and gratification. The religion as it is practiced does have a kind of soteriology. First, since the religion tends to be matrifocal, it works on the wounds caused by gender inequaility. Second, since the religion tends to worship Nature as divine, it works on healing the rift between "Man" and "Nature" caused, in part, by the Industrial Revolution. Third, since the religion embraces the creative and the intuitive, it works towards empowering people to be preistesses and prophetesses who can create new liturgy, thealogy and even soteriology.
The feeling that many find when they come to Neo-paganism is one of coming home. Seeing this good Earth as our Mother, and embracing our relationship to Her beyond the strictures and human-centured paradigms held by mainstream society can be a strongly regenerative experience.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
On the other hand, there is nothing in "an it harm no one, do what you will" that says you have to become a better person, so developing your own moral code seems rather optional.
I agree. The Rede does not push you to be a better person.
And if that's as far as Wiccan wants to take his religion, that's his right, but I find it a fairly shallow approach to religion. I mean, if you want to sum up your religion in 8 words, do you really think you're terribly involved in it?
Just because ethics aren't spelled out for you doesn't mean they aren't there for one to seek.
Also, different traditions have their own teachings. the Church of Universal Eclectic Wicca, for example, teaches 5 Points of Wiccan belief:
The Wiccan Rede
The Law of Return - What you do returns to you
The Ethic of Self-Responsibility - We, and only we, are responsible for our own actions.
The Ethic of Constant Improvement - The desire to improve the world around us, guided in part by the Law of Return.
The Ethic of Attunement - Divinity is within us and around us, and becoming in-tune with this power is a major facet of Wicca.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
By Lyda:
If you don't think that people are basically bad and flawed then salvation doesn't come into it.
I should have been more specific in saying salvation in terms of achieving the greatest possible good for humanity as a whole in this life, whatever may happen in the next. Having a positive or negative attitude to humanity to me does not make a difference, suffering is a fixture of our existence whatever your outlook. Developing a system of personal morality certainly can be a good thing, but I don’t feel that it addresses the bigger issues. I’m trying not be obdurate on that point, but it is where Paganism would fall short for me.
You’re quite right in pointing out that developing and bettering oneself should not be minimized or discounted, I hope I didn’t go overboard there. There are many examples of Christians going on intense and personal spiritual journeys, particularly in the mystic tradition.
quote:
The Wiccan Rede
The Law of Return - What you do returns to you
I’ll try not to sound like a total dickhead here, but I find the idea of a law of return or karma to be very offensive. This model of justice to me is about retribution and leaves no place for mercy. In short I think it appeals to our worst instincts to seek an eye for an eye. It also does not make sense when we see the bad people prosper and good or innocent people suffer, often horribly (an argument of course which has been made against God as well).
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Asdara
Shipmate
# 4533
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Posted
There many reasons why "bad things" happen. Karma is only one of them.
You may need that "bad" experiance to learn a valuable lesson, or to make you more able to empathize with others around you.
You may have set yourself up for a "bad" experiance by making a less than intelligent decision (you choose not to wear a seat belt and now you have glass in your forehead--not "karma" just cause and effect of your choice)
Karma is just the concept of the type of energy you put out into the universe comeing back to you. If you generate good energy, there will be more good energy out there, therefore it is more likely you will recieve good energy. (Extremely basic, broken down, no details included version)
Nightwind may feel free to elaborate (?) or disagree completely.
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Not all those who wander are lost. -- J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 239 | From: Illinios | Registered: May 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
I should have been more specific in saying salvation in terms of achieving the greatest possible good for humanity as a whole in this life, whatever may happen in the next.
And where Christianity falls short for the Neo-Pagan is that "greatest good for humanity" part. We as Neo-Pagans would seek the greatest good for all life and sentient beings.
quote:
I’ll try not to sound like a total dickhead here, but I find the idea of a law of return or karma to be very offensive. This model of justice to me is about retribution and leaves no place for mercy. In short I think it appeals to our worst instincts to seek an eye for an eye. It also does not make sense when we see the bad people prosper and good or innocent people suffer, often horribly (an argument of course which has been made against God as well).
Well, historically the problems with the concept of karma is not its retributive aspects: the meting out of karmic justice was left to the Gods over the span of lifetimes. The real problem with karma as a doctine is that people are presumed to get what they deserve and no one is given by society the opportunity to improve upon their lot in life. Thus, cultures which have believed in karma and reincarnation have tended to result in strigent caste systems in which some castes have been horrendously oppressed.
The Law of Return in some branches of Neo-Paganism has a much different lineage than karma anyway. It was derived from The Law of Threefold Return which was a directive specifically against the practice of negative magic. It orignally was intended to apply to magical acts with harmful intent. One could cast a hex on another but the price was to have three times the impact rebound on you. The Law of Threefold return has been extended over the years in some branches to where it applies to positves acts as well as negative acts and mundane acts as well as magical acts. Thus, The Law of Return ends up looking exactly like karma, but it's much less broadly held in that form as is the Rede, for instance.
[Superfluous "the"]
[ 07. July 2003, 19:14: Message edited by: Mertseger ]
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Nightwind
Shipmate
# 4531
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:
The Wiccan Rede
The Law of Return - What you do returns to you
I’ll try not to sound like a total dickhead here, but I find the idea of a law of return or karma to be very offensive. This model of justice to me is about retribution and leaves no place for mercy. In short I think it appeals to our worst instincts to seek an eye for an eye. It also does not make sense when we see the bad people prosper and good or innocent people suffer, often horribly (an argument of course which has been made against God as well).
No harm, no foul.
I think it is a generalization. We don't always see what comes back to us, because it's not a eye for an eye. If someone steals my wallet, I don't believe that the Powers That Be will have someone steal his wallet in retribution. Furthermore, I'm not going to sit back and wait for Providence to punish him. I'm going to report the incident to the police and do everything I can to get the creep locked up.
I don't look at it so much as a good brings good, bad brings bad thing. (and I realize that was the bit I defined for you, bad me for falling to toting the party line) The Law of Return states you ownly get what you earn, in compliance with the law of ecology (from biology 101 class) that there is no such thing as a free lunch. You take from somewhere, something else has to give. You want something, you have to work for it. Casting a circle and lighting a green candle is not going to make you rich, any more than praying is likely to let you win the lottery.
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We've replaced their pagan gods with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if they notice.
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightwind:
Magic, while not identical to prayer, is still far closer to prayer than D&D-type magic. (but that could be an entirely different thread, or a private message should anyone care)
Not sure how narrow the focus of this thread is supposed to be, but this statement intrigues me, and I wish you could open it up just a bit more.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
This is probably an idiotic question, but I've been wondering for ages what Neo-Pagans think of the book The Mists of Avalon. Have any of you read it?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
This is probably an idiotic question, but I've been wondering for ages what Neo-Pagans think of the book The Mists of Avalon. Have any of you read it?
It's pretty much our Bible.
Well, no, but it is well loved in the community. MZB was a Neo-Pagan in the midst of the 80's at the height of feminist Goddess-worshipping side of Neo-Paganism. She returned to Christianity towards the end of her life, and the final book of the Avalon series (the posthumous Priestess of Avalon) speaks to that return. Her presentation of the Pagan ritual and magic in Mists is pretty much how it is understood and done within the community though few would claim to have the powers of her characters. All in all, Mists is a good literary exposition of the modern dialectic between Neo-Paganism and Christianity from the Neo-pagan perspective.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
I’ll try not to sound like a total dickhead here, but I find the idea of a law of return or karma to be very offensive. This model of justice to me is about retribution and leaves no place for mercy. In short I think it appeals to our worst instincts to seek an eye for an eye. It also does not make sense when we see the bad people prosper and good or innocent people suffer, often horribly (an argument of course which has been made against God as well).
I don't think the law of return particularly is incompatible with Christianity, I'd not realised it before I read this but I believe in a law of return to a certain degree.
I've noticed that when I have a very positive attitude towards everything; towards people, towards challenges, things seem to go right most of the time. When I am pessimistic, things usually don't go as well, people aren't as nice.
If I look at driving as an example; when I spend my time on the road being nice and letting people out of side streets in heavy traffic I tend to get the same back. Maybe there is some subtle difference in my driving style when I am being nice that makes people more inclined to wave me out, I don't know. But it does feel like there's a law of return happening.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re the law of return:
There are similar things in the Bible, or at least things interpreted that way.
E.g.,
Cast your bread upon the waters, and it shall return to you after many days--pressed down, shaken together, and running over.
(or something like that!)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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