|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Purgatory: What causes poverty?
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
The Okay that's it thread in Hell contained a tangential foray [URL=http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000878;p=6#000263 ](beginning here)[/URL] into the causes of poverty and disease in the third world nations. This thread is for a more reasoned discussion of the causes of the abject quality of life in various parts of the world, particularly including post-colonial Africa.
Here are my initial thoughts.
The pre-colonial population of Africa was relatively small and sustained itself through a combination of hunter-gatherer and subsistence farming methods. Along came the colonialists with all of the marvels of the modern world. Through the colonial years, the indigenous population increased exponentially, becoming dependent on modern infrastructure and farming techniques. Since WWII the colonialists have left, returning the countries to the indigenous population. Unfortunately the cultural infrastructure needed to maintain the physical infrastructure did not exist. The population continued to increase while commercial farming, sanitation, and economic development lapsed. A situation now exists where nature is attempting to return the population to a sustainable level. The people, by attempting to breed faster than starvation and disease can kill them, are unwittingly compounding the problem. Any attempt to reintroduce the technologies and infrastructure needed to hold attrition at bay is dismissed as exploitation, or the imposition of European values on an indigenous population.
So what is needed? Here’s a short list:
- Re-establishment of commercial farming using modern techniques.
- Population control. Six children per starving family is unsustainable.
- Sanitation, clean water, disease control. These three are a package and can be achieved by education first and simple infrastructure second.
- Removal of the dictators (including the elected ones) who use their countries nations as personal resources.
- A move from the primitive culture and values to a modern culture. The indigenous way of life is not bad, but it is incompatible with sustaining the existing population. A different mindset is required.
How can these goals be achieved? I don’t know. The existing governments are uncooperative. Forceful intervention is politically unacceptable. Charitable organizations can address the problems but not the causes. Some people advocate ending the involvement of the corporations which are “exploiting” the poor countries. I cannot see how further reducing their income and access to markets will help those nations.
Frankly, I despair when I try to think of workable solutions. The only glimmers of hope I see are in programs like Lifewater, which provides sustainable water and sanitation, and the various micro-loan programs, which foster a change in mindset by helping people create their own income. But I’m afraid that these are not enough.
Here are a few questions: If you believe that the state of African life is the fault of the western nations, what should we be doing differently? Does the western fault lie in colonizing Africa, or in leaving it? Do the indigenous populations bear any responsibility for their own condition? What should be the response of an individual Christian versus the response of a nation?
scot
[ 13. March 2003, 22:27: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
Are there not a range of causes?
I'd like to address one point in your post:
quote:
Some people advocate ending the involvement of the corporations which are “exploiting” the poor countries. I cannot see how further reducing their income and access to markets will help those nations.
I don't know anyone advocating that per se.
I would advocate changes in the trade rules so that these corporations can work with these counties in a non-exploitative manner. I also advocate that we, as individuals, make choices as to which companies we do business with according to the ethics they show in their dealings in the third world. I recently moved my bank accounts to Smile internet bank (at the risk of advertising) because of their policies regarding investment.
In some cases it's been necessary to set up rival models of doing business, such as Fair Trade companies. This is working - large supermarkets now have their own fair trade ranges, and the Fair Trade companies will be more than pleased to supply you with testimonials to how their activities are reducing poverty.
There is no doubt in my mind that current trade conditions are a partial cause of poverty, but also that with the right tweaks, trade can be routes out of poverty for poorer countries.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
|
Posted
Scot, thanks for starting this thread. I intend to post a fuller reply later, but just a quick reply.
We all know the need for clean water, and for nations prone to famine to store food.
The IMF told Malawi two years ago that it had to sell its grain stocks to service its debts. Look what's happening this year.
The IMF tells governments in its debt what they can and can't spend money on. In some African nations the IMF insist that Government revenues only be spent on essential infrastructure, and guess what...? providing clean water isn't "essential" according to the IMF.
So you have village in Africa where private companies come and dig a well, then charge locals for clean water.
Any long-term solution has to deal with terrible situations like this.
Regards
--------------------
Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
Posts: 3847 | From: The courts of the King | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
|
Posted
The rather depressing answer is the low average intelligence of the population causes many of Africa's problems. I don't know too much about much about Fairtrade ChristianAid etc. but they may do more harm than good. I feel like Philip Larkin did about Oxfam.
The best the Church can do is concentrate its efforts at the polls in defeating the Whore of Bablyon. Dismantling EU agricultural protectionism may allow these countries real "fair trade" and a probable increase in wealth.
--------------------
The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
The rather depressing answer is the low average intelligence of the population causes many of Africa's problems.
Aha. The little dark chappies aren't as clever as us civilised white people, so they can't be expected to know how to run their country. What''s really depressing is that racist supremicist attitudes like this are alive and well in the twenty-first century.
I think we now know exactly how much credence we can attach to your posts. What next, I wonder?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
|
Posted
Eleighteen - sod off and troll somewhere else
--------------------
Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
Posts: 3847 | From: The courts of the King | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
|
Posted
Hmmm, just because somebody doesn't know about something or how to do something does not make him/her less intelligent.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
--------------------
♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
|
Posted
Somebody's been reading The Bell Curve. West African children don't do as well as American children on American intelligence tests. Gee - I wonder why - could it be because they have never sat an American style test before? Because their school system is rubbish? Nah, must be because they haven't the native wit and intelligence needed to survive in their environment.
I'm willing to bet a large bar of chocolate there isn't anyone else on the ship who has ever developed cognitive tests for use in Africa (and if there is, I'll give you the chocolate as a gesture of solidarity).
--------------------
This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
|
Posted
The first three commandments:
1. Don't be a jerk
2. Engage brain before posting your message
3. Attack the issue, not the person
The examples mentioned in the explanation of commandment 3 include
"comment which stereotypes or attacks people on the basis of their race, nationality, age, gender, religious belief or sexual preference".
Eleighteen, don't you want to rethink your post in view of the above?
Maybe on second thoughts Matrix put it more succinctly than me.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
|
Posted
I tell you what: let's set down eleighteen and a bushman in the Kalahari desert, and see who's smart enough to still be alive at the end of the week.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
IMHO, as individuals, our response to poverty anywhere could be to:
- Pray
- Think
- Pray Again
- Listen
- Investigate
- Think
- Pray
- Have Patience
- Repeat Ad Nauseum
Simplistic or quick answers (see above posted troll as example) never are successful, whether they are from the liberal or conservative view.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I tell you what: let's set down eleighteen and a bushman in the Kalahari desert, and see who's smart enough to still be alive at the end of the week.
Excellent idea. Bags I to observe from an airconditioned Land Cruiser with a berth in a tented luxury desert camp. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
chukovsky, since you apparently have some first-hand knowledge of Africa, I'd be very interested in hearing your comments on the topic of the OP.
[scot tries to subtly steer the thread back on course]
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Genie
Shipmate
# 3282
|
Posted
Og, I think 'do something' needs to fit in your list somewhere. (Perhaps the insertion of a couple more 'prays' and 'thinks' after the 'investigation' but before the 'have patience', ad then slip it in there)
I would imagine we all agree with your thoughts that prayer and comtemplation (see, I knew I chose the right avatar!) must be embedded within everything we do or say. But I think the OP is more in the realms of trying to understand what nature the 'do something' should take. This thread is, in it's own small way, part of the various 'think' processes within your recommendations.
--------------------
Alleluia, Christ is risen!
Posts: 762 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
[HOST MODE]
eleighteen, we take a very low view of racist comments here on the Ship. I expect your next post on this thread to be a full and unqualified retraction of your "low average intelligence of the population causes many of Africa's problems" comment.
Alan
Purgatory host
[/HOST MODE]
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
The following is an edited version of my post on the Okay that's it thread.
I want to say some more about diseases and their effect on an economy.
A hundred years ago the economy of the American South was in very bad shape. There were many reasons, but the main one was that too many people were so ill they could not work.
The specific diseases that disabled them were pellagra, which is a deficiency disease, malaria, and hookworm. These last two are caused by parasites.
Ninety years ago, the state of Virginia sent my grandfather to eradicate hookworm in two counties in the extreme western part of the state. He treated all the cases of hookworm he found and explained to people how to avoid infection. Similar eradication efforts were undertaken throughout the South.
Sometime before 1940, the federal government passed a law requiring that cornmeal, which was the Southern dietary staple, have niacin added to it. This wiped out pellagra.
The advent of DDT in the 1940s wiped out malaria.
Finally there was a population healthy enough to work. With the advent of air conditioning people could work hard on extremely hot days. The economy of the South improved greatly.
As far as Africa is concerned, there are many diseases which debilitate people or make them blind. AIDS is a recent problem, of course, but there are older diseases which must be wiped out also.
If people are in poor health, they cannot work.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
In addition to depending upon a generally discredited notion, eleighteen's point is logically fallacious -- he's asserting two things, the first which is mostly true, the second which is not well supported by research and the conclusion for which (if both were true) would tend to show correlation, but not causation. He says, essentially:
1) These people are poor;
2) these people are not very smart; therefore
3) being not very smart makes people poor.
One may be true, two is doubtful, and there's no way of knowing, even if two were true also, that one causes two, and not two causes one.
It's circular, as well as racist, you see.
You could just as well say (and probably more accurately):
1) These people are poor.
2) These people don't score well on current I.Q. tests.
3) Poverty causes people not to score well on current I.Q. tests.
See?
[ 19. November 2002, 19:35: Message edited by: Laura ]
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
The question that follows from Moo's argument is why are the coastal areas of China and parts of India doing so much better than most of Sub-Saharan Africa. The answer does appear to be that the widespead looting of government treasuries over the years has removed the entire available surplus to make the advances in infrastructure that is necessary for the continent to progress. Part of what the IMF is trying to achieve is to get that under control, but in practice it is probably impossible; the recent example of Zimbabwe is merely a nore dramatic example of the outworking of dictatorships there (V.S. Naipaul's Bend in the River is a deeply depressing description of what happened after independence in one country).
It is important to understand that having lots of children is a rational response to the circumstances; each child gives a chance of being supported into old age - in a country where savings and pensions are liable to be destroyed by government action, this is the only way to have a reasonable chance of such support. A fall in the birth rate will only occur therefore in Africa either when economic circumstances are radically improved (as has been the experience of South Korea) or when the government becomes powerful enough to enforce one child families) as in China - but at least there they also accepted responsibility for you in your old age.
Attacking the EU and USA's tarrifs against food imports is a worthwhile aim - but since the French have a majority lined up in the EU to prevent this, and the American democratic system has led to their tarrifs, there seems little chance of significant progress there.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
|
Posted
I suggest a different answer to the thread title...
Nothing causes poverty.
That is, poverty is the state that exists normally (i.e. without intervention) in the world. However, some parts of the world have found ways to get themselves out of it.
If you define "poverty", I would imagine that you would see societies that existed in that same state many centuries ago.
Any comments?
--------------------
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Genie....sorry...I was being a little simplistic vis-a-vis prayer. As a, for want of a better word, social worker, I am doing something about poverty in my city. This gives me a slightly different perspective on efforts to deal with poverty. From my experience, the best things that work to remit poverty are usually well thought out.
I have seen many a worthy initiative flame out for lack of forsesight and lasting energy and commitment.
Hate to say it...but there are no easy answers to what to do personally about poverty. So...listening (not just to answers to prayer) and prayer and thinking are unfortunate requirements.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mattprov
Apprentice
# 1416
|
Posted
I spent five months in West Africa earlier this year and heard this story:
A group of aid workers went into a remote African village to do a talk on Malaria Prevention. To overcome some of the language barriers they showed a picture of a Mosquito on an Overhead Projector which of course enlarges the image so that everyone in the room can see it.
A week later the aid workers went back to the village to see if the villagers had listened to what had been said and had changed their ways.
When they realised nothing had changed, they asked one of the villagers why not? The response they got was 'The Mosquitos you showed us were massive (having been enlarged on the projector), ours are much smaller (indicating a real mosquito's size) and so what you said doesn't matter.'
If you read eleighteen's post the way it may well have been intended (intelligence is often a word used as a subsitute for education and amount of knowledge rather than its correct term) then it is perfectly fair to say that one of the major problems the poorer parts of the world (and pleased don't just talk about Africa - Asia is in many ways worse off) face is a lack of education. You will never solve any of the problems discussed here if you don't include education somewhere along the line.
And btw how many of us here have actually been to the third or even the second world so that we actually have some backing behind our views?
Posts: 35 | From: God's home city of Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Ummmm....matprov...as a social service provider I can say quite categorically, if the user doesn't "get" the message because of a decision by the service provider, then it is up to the service provider to change their tactics and content; it isNOT the fault of the persons being lectured at.
The example of the mosquito is a problem lying with the agency NOT the people. The agency did not explain but assumed something. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Never ever assume anything. The example is not an education matter but a matter of not thinking through things from the perspective of the person supposedly being helped.
I don't mean to be harsh. I realise you were trying to point towards general education as a problem in the 3rd world. Yep....education makes a difference as far as poverty is concerned. But...an agency who did not perceive the potential for this sort of misunderstanding and miscommunication is also not educated enough.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
I lived in West Africa for several years in the 1970s and have returned frequently on visits, mostly to Ghana and Togo. I have also traveled widely in the region, including Congo and South Africa, as well as the other West African countries.
I majored in economic development at Penn, so I have always been interested in that aspect of growth in Africa.
My own assessment of developments over the past thirty years is simply that it will take a while for Africa to integrate the systems and values that make capitalism and western-style government work well.
The key to that integration, in my opinion, is Christianity. Christianity brings with it a number of traits that, over time, will tend to remove many of the obstacles to economic development.
The key barriers to development in third world countries, as I understand them, are more complex than simply the lack of infrastructure and capital. Christianity, with its emphasis on useful activity, on service for its own sake, on leadership as service, its high concept of marriage, and its rejection of bribery, theft, patronage, animism, superstition, and revenge, goes directly to the heart of many of the unproductive cultural traditions that hinder African countries.
The beauty of this kind of cultural solution to Africa's woes is that it will be the result of an internal growth process, and not something that will be imposed from outside. Perhaps Christianity is a western import, but its true origin is closer to Africa than it is to Europe.
The down-side of this solution, of course, is that it is not a quick fix. Certainly many foreign and governmentally sponsored programs are vital to keep things going until the longer run solutions get going.
Fortunately Africa is madly Christianizing itself, as if in conscious awareness of the true solution to its situation. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
But before anyone goes feeling too sorry for people in Africa, my experience is that people there are more content with their situation than richer people often are. Statistics always make things sound worse than they are. It is certainly not much fun to have your children die of terrible diseases, and I'm not diminishing the horror of that. I've seen my share of it. But the sad spiritual and social situations that people experience in the west - such as loneliness, failed relationships, lack of faith, and materialism - are not so much better.
So the answer to poverty and disease in Africa is....the Ship of Fools! ![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laura
General nuisance
# 10
|
Posted
Don't get me started on the problems of communicating public health abroad -- it's bad enough here. Back in the eighties I worked at a women's health center, dispensing contraceptive information by phone and in person. We demonstrated use of contraceptive foam (which is very effective birth control combination with condoms) by putting it in our hands, because you obviously can't actually show how it's actually done, though we were careful to explain that you had to use it, um, internally for it to be useful. We had at least one person later call and say that she had done as told, but that she hadn't been able to keep the foam in her hand the whole time she had sex. Other questions we got involved people who were dissolving oral contraceptives ... not orally ... and couples where they were both taking the pills she was prescribed, and were dismayed that the pack had run out after two weeks.
These were supposedly educated Americans for the most part, so I can only imagine how difficult it is when you add culture and language barriers to the mix.
--------------------
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mattprov:
'The Mosquitos you showed us were massive.'
Great story, Matt - but it surely sounds apocryphal to me.
I lived in a tiny village in a remote area of Togo, without running water or electricity, doing development work. But even there pictures were occasionally projected on walls (using a generator) for entertainment. I can't imagine people really thinking that mosquitos were four feet across.
Is it really true that contraceptive foam works if you only apply it to your hands? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eanswyth
Ship's raven
# 3363
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Is it really true that contraceptive foam works if you only apply it to your hands?
I guess it would depend on what you do with your hands. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 1323 | From: San Diego | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave the Bass
Shipmate
# 155
|
Posted
Freddy, does this mean that as the West becomes less Christian, we will see an increase in the number of people living in poverty in the US and in Europe?
On second thoughts, you don't need to answer that question - I can see it happening around me.
Posts: 2162 | From: In a forest | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Wm Duncan
Buoy tender
# 3021
|
Posted
Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (1996) offers the idea that a large part of the economic differences among different societies has to do with geographical accident:- which regions had domesticable animals, providing the possibility of a high-protein diet (sub-Saharan Africa doesn't, particularly);
- which places had folks living in close contact with domestic animals, thus developing immunities to the diseases the animals carry: smallpox is the main example. European entry into the Americas was an invasion partly by armies, and partly by disease. (Pizarro's conquest of the Incas, for example, was just after the epidemic had decimated that empire.)
- which places had grain plants lending themselves to the development of farming and a high-calorie diet (New Guinea, for example, does not);
- which land masses have east-west axes, lending themselves to the spread of agriculture along lines of longitude (Eurasia), since migrations in the more north-south continents (South America, Africa) would mean taking crops through a more radical variety of climates.
- some of these factors also lent themselves to the development of burocratic civilizations (Diamond's word: "kleptocracies") based on the control of systems of growing & distributing food.
Diamond began his exploration of the topic after a conversation with a highly intelligent tribal leader in Papua New Guinea, and this leader's question, "How come you [europeans] have all the cargo, and we don't have any?"
It's an intriguing read.
Wm Duncan
--------------------
I have overcome a fiercely anti-Catholic upbringing in order to attend Mass simply and solely to escape Protestant guitars. Why am I here? Who gave these nice Catholics guitars?
-- Annie Dillard
Posts: 1193 | From: about 30 km above the Juan de Fuca plate | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
There is one more important variable, and that is climate.
The parts of the world where it gets cold enough to kill off a lot of the insects are much healthier than those where it is warm year round.
In David Landes's The Wealth and Poverty of Nations, he points out that there are no first world countries which lie between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
|
Posted
Not wishing to nitpick, Moo, but the Tropic of Capricorn is just a bit south of the Queensland town of Rockhampton and a significant chunk of Terror Australis is in fact tropical-and not appreciably less "First World" than the rest of the country.
Ditto Singapore-absolutely equatorial.
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Assistant Village Idiot
Shipmate
# 3266
|
Posted
I second Wm Duncan. I had expected to disagree strenuously with Diamond's book, but he makes a powerful and convincing case.
--------------------
formerly Logician
Posts: 885 | From: New Hampshire, US | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
|
Posted
I found Scot's OP quite thought-provoking, both in its analysis of the historical precedents of the situation, his suggestions as to what is required to undo the damage, and his frank admission recognising the difficulties of implementing those steps.
I am not an expert on 3rd World poverty, so I'll simply continue reading this thread with interest. But one application I started wondering about relates particularly to the problems of Australian Aboriginal people.
If I apply Scott's thoughts there, I would agree that most of the problems of our indigenous people come from the imposition of western colonialism, with the subsequent undermining of the indigenous culture and way of life. But in the case of Australia, the colonising power has not withdrawn, nor do Scott's suggestions about population control, modern agriculture etc seem quite as relevant to the Aboriginal setting, where population has rather decreased significantly and most of the problems are social issues (as well as medical issues) rather than issues of starvation etc.
Anyway, thanks for a stimulating post Scott. I will continue to think about these things and if anyone else has any thoughts it would be interesting to hear them.
--------------------
Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mattprov
Apprentice
# 1416
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OgtheDim:
Ummmm....matprov...as a social service provider I can say quite categorically, if the user doesn't "get" the message because of a decision by the service provider, then it is up to the service provider to change their tactics and content; it isNOT the fault of the persons being lectured at.
Never ever assume anything. The example is not an education matter but a matter of not thinking through things from the perspective of the person supposedly being helped.
I don't mean to be harsh. I realise you were trying to point towards general education as a problem in the 3rd world. Yep....education makes a difference as far as poverty is concerned. But...an agency who did not perceive the potential for this sort of misunderstanding and miscommunication is also not educated enough.
Firstly, I never said it was the fault of the people being 'lectured'. All I did was show how the level of intelligence (taken as meaning amount of knowledge known) is higher in some parts of the world (the richer) than in other (the poorer).
It is not always the fault of the service provider. Sometimes there is no fault with anyone - I never attached any. Sometimes it's just life. They were eductaed enough - you're asking them to be perfect - a slightly unrealistic target.
The problems of the thirld world will never be solved without education as one of the key components of any plan.
Posts: 35 | From: God's home city of Liverpool | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
All I did was show how the level of intelligence (taken as meaning amount of knowledge known)
Not a meaning of intelligence that would be used in any rigorous or formal debate.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mattprov:
And btw how many of us here have actually been to the third or even the second world so that we actually have some backing behind our views?
I once lived in Kenya for 4 school terms, working as a teacher in a small village school.
Nobody I met there would have reacted the way the people in your rather dubious 3rd-hand story did. They knew about malaria, they knew what caused it, and they were not at all stupid by anyone's standards.
Our church in south London is about half African, (half the rest are black West Indians), and I meet and talk to Africans every day, in the area where I live and at work (in an adult education college with students and staff from all over the world. So I'm reasonably well informed about the situation.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
er, and I meant to say that in my opinion people in Africa are as capable as the rest of us of developing rich economies, if left alone to do it.
I'd guess that the best recipe for economic development would be peace, education, and free trade. Hardly a startling combination.
The main problems are war, war causes famine, war destroys families, war encourages disease, war lets people get to the top by killing rather than by working. Not just war between countries but war by governments against their own people. A tyranny - or a colonial government not accepted by the people - is an act of war in itself. So peace implies democracy (or at any rate some form of government by consent - as most African nation states were invented by colonial powers and have utterly artificial boundaries, the only way to build that consent is, in my opinion, democracy)
How we stop wars and build democracy is left as an excercise for the reader ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
It would be nice to think that Christianity would fix the problem - after all Christians are supposed to be in favour of peace and education.
But if we look at the mess made in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries by countries with a Christian tradition, it isn't very encouraging.
Actually, we scored rather well on the education front, but we didn't manage peace.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But if we look at the mess made in Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries by countries with a Christian tradition, it isn't very encouraging.
Certainly true. So you never know.
My thought is that Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries (and even before) were shedding, not acquiring, Christianity. We were never all that good Christians anyway, if my understanding of history serves me right.
Anyone who has been to Africa is probably aware that the quality of Christianity there is markedly different from the Christianity that has characterized Europe for lo these many years.
Whether these differences will prove to be a help or a hindrance to them, of course, remains to be seen.
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
eleighteen
Shipmate
# 2736
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
[HOST MODE]
eleighteen, we take a very low view of racist comments here on the Ship. I expect your next post on this thread to be a full and unqualified retraction of your "low average intelligence of the population causes many of Africa's problems" comment.
Alan
Purgatory host
[/HOST MODE]
There are countless studies available in the public domain which show sub-Saharan Africans to have a lower average IQ compared to the rest of the world. The causes of this, and indeed the question of whether ones "IQ" actually means anything are open to question. But academic opinion today leans strongly towards intelligence being largely hereditary and IQ-tests being a good test of inate cognitive ability, and that cognitive aility is crucial to our success in society, and how well individuals in that society interact. In as much as I have posted a summary of current academic opinion, I will not retract.
If you read around the subject beware that "race and IQ" can lead one down all sorts of murky paths, but that should not obscure one in looking for the truth.
Bearing "lower intelligence" is very important if you want to improve the lot of your average African. African Anglican bishops know this, and this is why they prefer the gospel in a straightforward, evangelic stlye. e.g. Sexual behaviour is a matter of life and death in Africa.. ..Africans are prone to impulsive and superstious behaviour.. hence a very straightforward "sex only in marriage" teaching is neccesarry. Hence the showdowns with western bishops at Lambeth over homosexuality. Hence also creeping neo-colonialism in that finacial institutions are now having a much greater say in how governments spend their money.
My comment on the EU is entirely fair. If the Church must be political, then attacking the damage that first world agricultural protectionism does is massively important. Helping the fight against malaria (bugger AIDS charities - that's just for spoilt westerners who can only blame themselves for their HIV) I guess is important too.
There aren't "easy" solutions to any of this (and I've not tried to post any), but at least exploring the shortcomings of native populations may help find them. Else, you can support Jubilee 2000, buy fair-trade coffee and do some YWAM-y gap year type thing if what you want is to feel better about yourself.
--------------------
The disbelieving husband is sanctified through the wife (I Cor 7.14)........(thinks)..... woo-hooo!
Posts: 52 | From: overboard | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
|
Posted
Poverty is not a problem it is fact the solution to the world's problems.
Poverty is not having any friends, not having someone to hold your hand when you die, not having someone cry when you leave this world.
Poverty is not having made music on the most fundamental of instruments.
Poverty is not having a belief system.
Poverty is not having discovered the beauty of nature or hearing a bird sing.
Poverty is what the materialistic West has in abundance.
Pax et Bonum
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
|
Posted
Well...
http://www.henrygeorge.org.uk
That's all I'll say for now, as I'm only a beginner and don't want to start arguing beyond my ability to argue.
Regards
Telepath
--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Telepath
Ship's Steamer Trunk
# 3534
|
Posted
Or, more informatively:
http://www.henrygeorge.org (the US site)
Regards
Telepath
--------------------
Take emptiness and lying speech far from me, and do not give me poverty or wealth. Give me a living sufficient for me.
Posts: 3509 | From: East Anglia | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
FatMac
Ship's Macintosh
# 2914
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Poverty is not a problem it is fact the solution to the world's problems.
[Snip...]
Poverty is what the materialistic West has in abundance.
I don't want to misunderstand you GH, but are you really arguing that poverty is a quality of life issue, while thousands in the third world are struggling not for quality of life, but just for life itself??!?
--------------------
Do not beware the slippery slope - it is where faith resides.
Do not avoid the grey areas - they are where God works.
Posts: 1706 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Mattprov...
Education does not make you wise. The agency in your story was certainly educated. But...it was not wise. And.. intelligence and wisdom are not the same thing.
Eleighteen...
You may be intelligent...but you are not wise. Nor are you being helpful. You are being...trollish. Go away.
Stronger comments could be made, but this is not hell.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
If you read around the subject beware that "race and IQ" can lead one down all sorts of murky paths, but that should not obscure one in looking for the truth.
Those murky paths might in themselves tell you something.
quote:
Bearing "lower intelligence" is very important if you want to improve the lot of your average African.
Warning - crass generalisation alert...
quote:
Africans are prone to impulsive and superstious behaviour..
Told you it was coming....
Oh, and fair trade and debt relief are not about feeling better about oneself; a little research on the one, and a little mathematics applied to the other will demonstrate that a real difference can be made, and is being made.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
So peace implies democracy (or at any rate some form of government by consent - as most African nation states were invented by colonial powers and have utterly artificial boundaries, the only way to build that consent is, in my opinion, democracy)
Seems to me that one of the things that is needful is a viable mix of Western and traditional African culture. Neither letting the Africans lead totally traditional lives on reservations, nor totally westernizing them and giving them all our problems (of which Garden Hermit has pointed out a few) seems a good alternative - some synthesis is needed.
I'm not totally convinced that democracy as we practice it is necessarily part of that mix.
Much of the chaos might be said to be caused by groups of people trying out mixtures which don't work. But it may be that the right mixture will have to be developed in Africa, by Africans, rather than in some Western university.
Wherever it comes from, however it develops, some means of spreading it rapidly could be of benefit. Is there a role for a BBC African service (and lots of cheap solar-powered radios) ?
Russ
PS: Go easy on eleighteen, chaps. Saying "intelligence" when he/she meant to say "education" was a mistake, but we all make those, and it's no reason to be unwelcoming.
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
|
Posted
Eleighteen is a notorious troll. Racist comments (repeated again i see) have no place in the ship surely...
Best ignored I'd say
--------------------
Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
Posts: 3847 | From: The courts of the King | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
|
Posted
I am struck by the general lack of specific opinions about what action should be taken by the western world. Where are the people who are always going on about the evils of capitalism or overconsumption by Europe and North America? What happened the complaints about US interventionism (or lack thereof) in Africa? I was hoping to put the various theories on the table and take a critical look at all of them to see what might really matter.
There seem to be only three topics which are appearing repeatedly so far: education, democracy, and EU/US agricultural policy. I agree that these are vitally important, but how can they be addressed? Is it possible in the existing cultural climate to effect large scale education? How do we promote democracy when the people themselves seem to alternate between complete disinterest and violent self-interest? Again, I am unsure that the cultural framework exists in Africa to support a democratic system.
Agricultural policy has been mentioned by several posters as a possible solution, but I am unconvinced. Some people believe that EU and US agricultural tariffs should be lifted in order to allow the sale of more African product. I agree on the basis that protectionism is inherently undesirable. However, I do not see that the change would be of much help to Africa. To think that farmers who cannot even achieve subsistence will somehow thrive on cash crops is naïve. I do not have a ready reference, but my impression is that high efficiency, commercial-style farming is necessary just to feed the current population. It cannot be done by independent, small-scale farmers. I wonder if this is one case where a limited form of socialism <gasp!> might be the answer (the state owns and operates the means of food production). However, I am sure that the level of corruption apparent in African government would turn any such approach into a complete fiasco. Once again, I despair.
scot
--------------------
“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Is there a role for a BBC African service (and lots of cheap solar-powered radios) ?
PS: Go easy on eleighteen, chaps. Saying "intelligence" when he/she meant to say "education" was a mistake, but we all make those, and it's no reason to be unwelcoming.
BBC African service exists, and is great. Most people have access to a radio.
Maybe it is easy to confuse "education" with "intelligence"... but saying that Africans are naturally superstitious?
OK I can't even be bothered to answer that.
Jared Diamond - very long and repetitive book which I struggled through because I was in Tanzania with little else to read. Moo slightly oversimplifies because there are places with the same climate and propensity to disease that have managed to develop.
It may however be part of the problem - if you are above a certain level of disease you may not be able to develop enough to get below that level. Likewise if you have a drastic epidemic (like AIDS) it may hinder your development even more.
Climate - also has a slight part to play, as within any one country this effect can be seen - warmer parts of most countries that have variable climate do have lower productivity rates - especially when you are looking at traditional labour (i.e. less difference in the US or Australia because a higher proportion of labour is done inside).
Birth rate - probably is more a result than a cause.
Education - sure, need more education, this would help greatly. But a poor country can't afford to educate everyone properly.
Corruption - also a problem and can make a country less well developed than it should be - but it's easy to blame this.
How about unjust trade policies? Debt? Forcing countries to make the parents pay for education and the sick people to pay for healthcare?
It's easy to say things must change in developing countries for them to develop. Much harder to say things must change here.
Primitive values? Christianity will change everything? The version of Christianity currently preached in Africa tends to include yes, working harder for your family - and therefore looking out only for your family. If you have this attitude you will never see anything wrong with corruption if it benefits your family.
As an illustration, a friend was trying to work with church women's groups in the small town I was living in, and in surrounding villages, to get a fair price overseas for their crafts. So she was buying crafts that were supposed to be made by the women's groups and selling them in Germany. The village women's groups produced some lovely crafts themselves.
The town women's group bought at slave labour costs the same crafts from local, non-church women and passed them off as their own. They were the ones who had been in the church longer and had definitely taken on board the message of "work hard for yourselves and your family and you will prosper".
The gospel can only work to help development if it is REALLY the gospel i.e. those who are slightly better off see that the good news is for those poorer than them - and everyone sees that there is no good news for one person if there is not good news for everyone.
--------------------
This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by eleighteen:
African Anglican bishops know this, and this is why they prefer the gospel in a straightforward, evangelic stlye. e.g. Sexual behaviour is a matter of life and death in Africa.. ..Africans are prone to impulsive and superstious behaviour.. hence a very straightforward "sex only in marriage" teaching is neccesarry. Hence the showdowns with western bishops at Lambeth over homosexuality.
Wow! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Africans are so slow that they actually believe the quaint simplistic sayings of those old books.
Fortunately we western sophisticates are well beyond that childish approach to theology.
O happy are we! ![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
It is no wonder that Christianity is struggling in Europe, if this is the way we define intelligence. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
--------------------
"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
|
Posted
Oh and by the way, Garden Hermit, poverty is not any of the things you mention and you should be ashamed of yourself for even saying that.
Poverty is when your child dies because you can't afford food, or medicine, or the fare to hospital.
Poverty is when you have to choose which child to send to school this year.
Poverty is when you have to sell your daughter in order for the rest of the family to eat.
So go and experience some of those things and tell us just how poor we are in the West.
--------------------
This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
