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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: What's the matter with rural churches?
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
It seems that, on numerous threads here on the Ship, people have said things to the effect of 'well, that works well in the city but wouldn't work in a rural parish'. (I'm thinking of numerous posts on threads like these).
This sometimes seems to apply to ideas that I wouldn't regard as terribly radical, like having Communion every Sunday in every benefice (even if not in every church or not as the main service).
I love rural Mediaeval churches, and to bicycle about looking at them with a copy of Pevsner in my rucksack. Some rural incumbents and churchwardens in the area probably know me as the annoying person who is always knocking on doors asking for the key to the church.
Yet, for all their splendor and historical value, too many rural Anglican churches seem to be in what I'd call their Ulysses phase ('How dull it is to pause, to make an end,/ To rust unburnished, not to shine in use!'), by which I mean they seem not to be used for very much of anything, let alone their original purpose. Even reflecting that they are almost invariably parts of team ministries, the number of services in each church tends to be very low. As the Book of Common Prayer has faded from the scene, the sort of rural MOTR liturgy that seemed to have previously predominated (either the English Hymnal with modified Dearmerite use with or else Hymns A&M with Matins and Communion alternating) seems to have gone with it. Rural MOTR Anglicanism now seems to stand further apart from urban MOTR Anglicanism than it ever has in the past.
A fairly trivial example would be this: I have never been to an urban church (other than those strongly identifying as Evangelical) that did not have the New English Hymnal in the pews. I don't think I've ever been to a rural church that did.
But what really bothers me is the sense that these churches are no longer playing the sort of role in their communities for which they were built.
I don't know if it's just that the inevitable effects of a few centuries of urbanization have left rural communities behind, or if there is something more specific going on in rural churches.
[ 04. March 2014, 09:29: Message edited by: seasick ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think that's generally true, and the congregations in rural churches are ageing.
That said, I can think of one or two rural churches around here which are within easy reach of surrounding towns where their congregations are swelled by refugees from happy-clappy worship or the demise of traditional church choirs.
I can think of two where the standard of choral music is very high indeed, and all because of refugees from nearby towns.
Whether that is sustainable in the longer term is a moot point. The further out into the sticks you get the more difficult it becomes.
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*Leon*
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# 3377
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Posted
A lot of the problem is that the churches are playing the roles in their communities that they were built for. Or rather, the communities are very clearly defined and the church has to play a role in 'their community'.
In my experience of rural parishes, it makes no difference whether there's a communion in the benefice each week. People are simply not interested in what happens in the next village because they care about their church. People understand the resource constraints that mean they can't have their own vicar, but don't feel attachment to the benefice as a unit.
What people want is the best church possible given the resources in their village. And what they get is actually quite impressive given the resources.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Yet, for all their splendor and historical value, too many rural Anglican churches seem to be in what I'd call their Ulysses phase ('How dull it is to pause, to make an end,/ To rust unburnished, not to shine in use!'), by which I mean they seem not to be used for very much of anything, let alone their original purpose. Even reflecting that they are almost invariably parts of team ministries, the number of services in each church tends to be very low.
We've not gone as far down this road in the UK as in France. Most village churches (RC of course) don't seem to have any kind of formal worship, let alone the Mass, for weeks on end. A friend of mine who lives in France (ex-Anglican Quaker, who would attend Catholic mass weekly if he could) reported that in his village there wasn't even a mass on the feast of the patron saint. Small towns, which in England would have at least three services (including at least one eucharist) every Sunday, may share a priest with the next dozen communities and get one mass a month.
Secularisation, rural depopulation, shortage of priests, ease of travel to the nearest centre, are all likely factors. At least in the C of E we have a tradition of corporate offices and lay-led services, enabling some sort of weekly worship in every church. There is no reason why a priest should run himself* ragged tearing round half a dozen churches every Sunday. Let it be known where the mass is being celebrated each week, for the keenies, and let there be some service in every church.
But it's easy for me to theorise, never having worked (or wished to) in a rural context. Some people here will have that experience.
*sorry, should have said 'or herself': I was thinking of the French situation.
[ 11. September 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I guess this pattern, in a part of Norfolk I know well, is fairly typical. But the Parish Priest retires next month, so who knows what will happen then?
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
(Missed edit window).
Leslie Francis' book "Church Watch" makes some trenchant points - and it's nearly 20 years old!
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I guess this pattern, in a part of Norfolk I know well, is fairly typical. But the Parish Priest retires next month, so who knows what will happen then?
That seems insanely complicated. I wonder how anyone ever remembers when they're meant to be going to church.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Rural churches are often grouped into five or six, forming a team ministry or mission community. This group will often only have one stipendiary priest, plus several other staff (NSMs, readers), trying to provide in a fair way for all the churches. Instead of putting one person in each place, they all go on a merry-go-round so you get a different preacher / celebrant in each place each week. It doesn't sound terribly green (think of all the petrol!) and leads to much confusion - the ministers don't know the people so well, and the people don't know the ministers well. If you never see the priest, everyone assumes he must be in one of the other parishes, but of course he may well be up in the loft with his train set ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
An inordinate amount of time may be spent in drawing up a very complicated rota - and sometimes things go wrong, even the staff get confused and nobody turns up to take a service!
It all sounds very stressful to me, but what else can they do, when too few people are given too many churches to look after?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Encourage lay ministry/ NSMs? If there was one person designated the pastor for each village, and s/he was given delegated responsibility for organising the worship, there would be a sense of continuity.
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Rural churches are often grouped into five or six, forming a team ministry or mission community. This group will often only have one stipendiary priest, plus several other staff (NSMs, readers), trying to provide in a fair way for all the churches. Instead of putting one person in each place, they all go on a merry-go-round so you get a different preacher / celebrant in each place each week.
In the example given (Scarrowbeck), it looks like difficult decisions have been avoided for too long. Both Alby and Thwaite churches seem to be in the middle of nowhere (and arguably worse than Hanworth, which has already closed). Ingworth is scarcely any better. Closing those three would allow resources to be focussed on the remaining three churches, of which Calthorpe and Erpingham effectively serve the same settlement. Given that Erpingham is the only church to have bells, it should permanently have a morning service, and Calthorpe should permanently have only an evening service. On that basis it should be possible to construct a pattern of services that is consistent from week to week. (And, yes, I know, that sort of proposal is how to achieve World War III in the Easter Vestry. Perhaps the Archdeacon should take a lead.)
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
While the clergy shortage situation in the US is probably not as dire as in the UK, in many small towns or rural areas, creative solutions have to be found.
For example, my son and his wife recently moved to a (very) small town in central Kentucky, about 20 miles on good roads from a larger (though not large) urban center. This village has Methodist, Baptist, RC and Presbyterian churches (that's roughly in descending order of size).
The Presby church would safely be called 'struggling.' When I last visited, the Sunday body count was 10, including the pastor and organist. (The room would have seated perhaps 100.) As a new face, I was practically mobbed by the congo, hoping I was new to the community. The organist was shared with the Methodists, and the pastor? She was the widow of the last ordained minister, whom the congo petitioned the synod to install as pastor (with theological training but without ordination). (I may have some of this terminology wrong.) She preached a perceptive, excellent sermon on the gospel of the day, though she had difficulty handling the large lectern bible, and had difficulty with the text of the communion rite. You see, she is 85 years old and nearly blind.
Yet that church carries on.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I guess this pattern, in a part of Norfolk I know well, is fairly typical. But the Parish Priest retires next month, so who knows what will happen then?
That seems insanely complicated. I wonder how anyone ever remembers when they're meant to be going to church.
Because the Parish Magazine (which has the rota on the front cover) is hand-delivered to every house in the villages - it acts as a Village Paper not just a Church one.
And the notices outside the churches are kept up to date. It does work!
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I guess this pattern, in a part of Norfolk I know well, is fairly typical. But the Parish Priest retires next month, so who knows what will happen then?
That seems insanely complicated. I wonder how anyone ever remembers when they're meant to be going to church.
Because the Parish Magazine (which has the rota on the front cover) is hand-delivered to every house in the villages - it acts as a Village Paper not just a Church one.
And the notices outside the churches are kept up to date. It does work!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
In my part of the world many of the rural churches are charismatic evangelical. Some are very conservative and congregational. The more MotR and Angolo Catholic Churches are in the centre of town. Not really what you would expect.
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
Much has been said about the difficulties of team ministry. I'm sure it's all true.
But there seems to be something distinctive about rural team ministries. I think it's safe to say that few if any of them resemble this thriving group of parishes in London, with an impressive range of services (there's even 'Mess Church' in there, which should make Karl happy). Now, in fairness, this team has certain advantages: with five priests (one NSM and one serving his title, a lay minister, and three pastoral assistants, it's not exactly experiencing the level of under-staffing that is all too common in rural areas; furthermore, I strongly suspect that the team rector can find other priests in and outside his local deanery who are happy to cover services from time to time.
However, in other respects, notably the combination of stipendary and self-supporting ministers, along with a strong commitment to lay ministry and real work within the community, it seems like a model team parish.
I recognize, though, that there are very significant cultural differences between Camden Town and rural England (I've lived in both, btw), and I'm sure that these are reflected in the local churches. I would think that rural parishes will be less densely populated, will probably be less multicultural, and may well be older on average. In popular imagination, that should make them 'easier' for Anglican ministers (isn't that the schtick in 'Rev'?), but it doesn't seem to do so.
I think there are also cultural differences within ministry. I may be wrong about this, but in my experience, it's actually a rare priest who has extensive experience in both rural and urban ministry. It definitely seems that an urban curacy sets one up for a lifetime of urban ministry (and vice versa?)
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Encourage lay ministry/ NSMs? If there was one person designated the pastor for each village, and s/he was given delegated responsibility for organising the worship, there would be a sense of continuity.
Exactly the system operated by the Baptist Churches in the region I used to be in. Know what? Most churches reported stable, if not growing, congregations as a result.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Grouping parishes together is already happening in cities. And it will continue as a large proportion of clergy retire in the next ten years.
In my deanery the grouping is six churches to 5 priests. In the plan, that will reduce to 4, then 3, eventually 2 - over a 15 year period. So anyone who moves on doesn't get replaced.
You are very fortunate indeed. In most rural areas it's already 1:3, 1:6 no uncommon and I know of a 1 priest who "serves" 8
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
In the example given (Scarrowbeck), it looks like difficult decisions have been avoided for too long. Both Alby and Thwaite churches seem to be in the middle of nowhere (and arguably worse than Hanworth, which has already closed). Ingworth is scarcely any better. Closing those three would allow resources to be focussed on the remaining three churches, of which Calthorpe and Erpingham effectively serve the same settlement. Given that Erpingham is the only church to have bells, it should permanently have a morning service, and Calthorpe should permanently have only an evening service. On that basis it should be possible to construct a pattern of services that is consistent from week to week. (And, yes, I know, that sort of proposal is how to achieve World War III in the Easter Vestry. Perhaps the Archdeacon should take a lead.)
The problem - as ever - is that people have strong attachments to buildings; if you close any folk will not easily relocate (even though it may be only 5 minutes by car!)
Each church - although sharing the one Vicar - also has its "nuances" when it comes to worship.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
The situation outlined by Chorister sounds a bit like what happens in Methodism: big circuits, with 'local' preachers criss-crossing wide areas to lead the majority of church services. The clergy will each have 3+ churches to look after. The rota is referred to as 'the plan', and should be available at every local church to look at or take away. There's not much continuity in the Methodist pulpit, although sermon quality is relatively consistent.
Some churches will announce the upcoming preachers on a noticeboard outside, but this is rare IME. It's not essential, because every functioning church will be open every Sunday morning for worship, regardless of who's preaching. Mind you, some people choose to absent themselves if they know that so-and-so is due to preach.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You are very fortunate indeed. In most rural areas it's already 1:3, 1:6 no uncommon and I know of a 1 priest who "serves" 8
Even 25 years ago my grandfather served 12 parishes. It was amazing the speed with which he could finish a full communion service with four hymns and sermon (I believe he did 3 services each Sunday morning, though I'm unsure of the format).
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Encourage lay ministry/ NSMs? If there was one person designated the pastor for each village, and s/he was given delegated responsibility for organising the worship, there would be a sense of continuity.
Exactly the system operated by the Baptist Churches in the region I used to be in. Know what? Most churches reported stable, if not growing, congregations as a result.
Not surprised at all. It'd make a lot of sense. Most parishes/ congregations have, I suspect, at least one person who could conduct services with an acceptable standard of reverence and decorum and provide, as Angloid says, the continuity, as part of a wider team of clergy and committed lay ministers.
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Panda
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# 2951
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Posted
AIUI, this is more or less what is in mind for the proposed Ministry Areas in the Church in Wales, great swathes of which are rural parishes like the ones being talked about.
If it's entered into positively, I think it can work well. The problem is, in many places, it's being sold as a necessary measure to combat lack of money and vocations, and has an air of desperation about it.
Every MA will look different from the one next door and none can be planned in advance without knowing exactly where every cleric will be in five years' time. The result is that instead of being enthused, most people feel worried and unsettled.
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Below the Lansker
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# 17297
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Posted
Though I'm not CinW, I do occasionally substitute for the organist at my local parish church, and the rumblings I hear of re-organisation of rural parishes have left many in the pews very apprehensive about the future. Many village churches are still just about managing to have weekly services and some midweek activities or sporadic gatherings, but the drastic reduction in personnel that is currently on the cards will make life very difficult for some of the smaller congregations. The Methodists in this area have already taken the painful decision to close a number of chapels, and many congregations in other traditions (including my own - Baptist) are valiantly trying to maintain a local witness with dwindling bands of ageing members rattling around in barn-like 19th-century pitch-pine preaching boxes.
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
AIUI, this is more or less what is in mind for the proposed Ministry Areas in the Church in Wales, great swathes of which are rural parishes like the ones being talked about.
The thing I don't get is that they're describing these Ministry Areas as a change, when it seems to be what's going on already. For example, the Rectorial Benefice of Cowbridge has eleven churches (although one of these only gets a handful of services a year, because it hasn't had a village since about 1348). So what's the point of giving this sort of thing a new name?
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
If it's entered into positively, I think it can work well. The problem is, in many places, it's being sold as a necessary measure to combat lack of money and vocations, and has an air of desperation about it.
Every MA will look different from the one next door and none can be planned in advance without knowing exactly where every cleric will be in five years' time. The result is that instead of being enthused, most people feel worried and unsettled.
And they seem to be going about it in such a way as to minimize positivity. On the agendum before the Governing Body was this remarkably crassly-worded point:
"G. remind all members of Governing Body to accept their responsibility to engage with, communicate and support this process."
I don't know what the result of the vote was (I imagine it passed), but I expect there were a number of "no" votes just because members wished to point out to the people who draft this stuff that they are their diocese's representatives on the Governing Body, not provincial apparatchiks in their dioceses.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
[QUOTE] Not surprised at all. It'd make a lot of sense. Most parishes/ congregations have, I suspect, at least one person who could conduct services with an acceptable standard of reverence and decorum and provide, as Angloid says, the continuity, as part of a wider team of clergy and committed lay ministers.
Those in "pastoral leadership" were a mixture of full time and part time ordained and trained lay people (we have reader equivalents). We also had "house for duty" and in that capacity had 2 retired Anglican priests in pastoral leadership amongst some 100 churches or so.
There were/are one or two groups of churches but each church within the group had dedicated (in every sense of the word) leadership.
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
AIUI, this is more or less what is in mind for the proposed Ministry Areas in the Church in Wales, great swathes of which are rural parishes like the ones being talked about.
The thing I don't get is that they're describing these Ministry Areas as a change, when it seems to be what's going on already. For example, the Rectorial Benefice of Cowbridge has eleven churches (although one of these only gets a handful of services a year, because it hasn't had a village since about 1348). So what's the point of giving this sort of thing a new name?
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
If it's entered into positively, I think it can work well. The problem is, in many places, it's being sold as a necessary measure to combat lack of money and vocations, and has an air of desperation about it.
Every MA will look different from the one next door and none can be planned in advance without knowing exactly where every cleric will be in five years' time. The result is that instead of being enthused, most people feel worried and unsettled.
And they seem to be going about it in such a way as to minimize positivity. On the agendum before the Governing Body was this remarkably crassly-worded point:
"G. remind all members of Governing Body to accept their responsibility to engage with, communicate and support this process."
I don't know what the result of the vote was (I imagine it passed), but I expect there were a number of "no" votes just because members wished to point out to the people who draft this stuff that they are their diocese's representatives on the Governing Body, not provincial apparatchiks in their dioceses.
Despite all the recent changes in the Parish, I already see our move towards Ministry Areas, (though having the Parish Priest as Area Dean means that we have been effectively running as a MA across our severely clergy lacking Deanery... it's all rather sad...)
The boots on the ground are not keen with the whole plan (but it keeps getting pushed) but then I can't think of any of the meetings which happened in the Diocese at which the Harris report was mentioned it (in whole or in part) being received positively, as if all the consultation was curtain dressing and the decision had been made long before it was even sent as 'draft' to us little ones at the coal faces who will have to work on the implementation and stability.
As for today's (I guess it is actually yesterday's (11th) now) agreement to 8G we'll just have to wait for the report to come out (or pick up the phone and talk to people and find out before then!)
The issue that is most difficult is the mixed benefices, where it is urban and rural mixed, especially when the rural doesn't like he urban and sees it as eroding the rural identity etc.
Baptist Trainfan is right on the Francis 'Church Watch' book, it does continue to be a valuable resource, and it is sad that so many of the lessons that it prescribes have not been learnt even after all these years... anyone who hasn't read it should do so!
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
(though having the Parish Priest as Area Dean means that we have been effectively running as a MA across our severely clergy lacking Deanery... it's all rather sad...)
I'm amazed that anyone ever agrees to be Area Dean: they get paid very little extra for an enormous quantity of extra work. They can't all want to be Archdeacon.
Returning to our MAs, I'd rather it were all contingent on actually uniting properly with the other Covenanted Churches. Then they could actually do something useful, rather than being an exercise in renaming the deckchairs.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
(though having the Parish Priest as Area Dean means that we have been effectively running as a MA across our severely clergy lacking Deanery... it's all rather sad...)
I'm amazed that anyone ever agrees to be Area Dean: they get paid very little extra for an enormous quantity of extra work. They can't all want to be Archdeacon.
Returning to our MAs, I'd rather it were all contingent on actually uniting properly with the other Covenanted Churches. Then they could actually do something useful, rather than being an exercise in renaming the deckchairs.
I know that 'Empire Building' runs through the minds of the other CinW Church near by...
The Covenanting Churches ideas do not go far enough at the moment ... (I confess that I would prefer it if the others were to be incorporated into the CinW instead of maintaining their own denominations - but then I am unashamedly an Anglican) ... and does require a serious proposal that the covenanting Churches share a building and forgo the rest, utilising the money raised from sale to set up a proper mission and social action fund with which to fund outreach.
This of course will never take hold, (especially considering that in most cases it will be the CinW building kept and the others sold off) as that pesky problem of attachment to a building raises its head again!
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
S.Bacchus, even allowing for unbelievers in one, and followers of other religions in the other, seven villages in the remoter parts of Norfolk has probably got about a population comparable with about three streets in St Pancras.
Does that answer your OP?
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
S.Bacchus, even allowing for unbelievers in one, and followers of other religions in the other, seven villages in the remoter parts of Norfolk has probably got about a population comparable with about three streets in St Pancras.
Does that answer your OP?
It's doubtless a contributory factor. One could develop a system that would allow what I would consider the normal range of Anglican Sunday services (Mattins, Communion, and Evensong) to be said at all seven churches in a manner requiring no more than one stipendary vicar and one NSM (and several lay ministers). The rota posted above doesn't seem too deficient in that regard, although it is undeniably very complicated.
None of that explains why, on the Sunday before Christmas, when I was staying in a remote cottage some distance outside of a small village in Eastern England, neither of the two nearest benefices saw fit to have a service of Holy Communion at any time on Sunday in any of the churches in their respective benefices, although their failure to do so was strictly illegal.* One of these benefices was a member of the Evangelical Alliance (which, I have to say, surprised me in such a rural setting — I would have been equally surprised to see an advanced Anglo-Catholic parish), but the other seemed very MOTR. Every service it offered that day was some variation on a Christingle or crib service. So, not only was there no Eucharistic service (despite the canonical requirement that there be one), but there was also no service aimed at adults, except perhaps those with very small children in tow. That doesn't suggest a lack of resources, it suggest a lack of caring.
(And, yes, they were having 'Midnight Communion with Carols' on Christmas Eve, and no, that does not absolve them for the requirement to have Communion on the Sunday before the Eve as well).
I'm not claiming that all rural benefices are so negligent (I know for a happy fact that many or most are not), but I will say that I can't imagine that sort of thing happening in any urban MOTR Anglican parish church. In fact, the vicar of the (moderately Anglo-Catholic) parish in nearest large town was amazed that such things happen in anywhere in the Church of England. He grew up in the urban midlands and served his curacies in London and one of the northern cities. I guess he wasn't very familiar with rural Anglicanism.
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*Relevant Canons: B14.1 and (with respect to the special circumstances of a united benefice B14A.1).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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ElaineC
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# 12244
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Posted
I've worshiped in urban MOTR parishes all my life. I'm now in my sixties.
None of the churches have had all three services.
Where I grew up the church I attended with my parents had only one service and that was Holy Communion. The church whose youth fellowship I was a member of had an evening service - evensong on three Sundays and Holy Communion on the other.
The last church I attended only had one service, alternating between Morning Prayer and Holy Communion.
Where I am now we also only have one service. We have just increased our number of Holy Communion services to three. (Except for this month when the Vicar is on holiday and a there isn't a priest available, so as the Reader I will be taking Morning Prayer.
So we don't seem to be any different from rural MOTR churches.
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Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Are you sure none of these churches had a regular communion service at 8.00 every Sunday? That's the standard default for MOTR and I would guess the majority of evangelical parishes. If there is no eucharist anywhere in a parish on a Sunday they are in breach of Canon Law.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ElaineC
Shipmate
# 12244
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Posted
We don't have an 8 o'clock service and neither did my previous church.
So as far as I can see a lot of Bishops have turned a lot of blind eyes.
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Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
On the Sunday before Christmas, when I was staying in a remote cottage some distance outside of a small village in Eastern England, neither of the two nearest benefices saw fit to have a service of Holy Communion at any time on Sunday in any of the churches in their respective benefices... Every service it offered that day was some variation on a Christingle or crib service. So, not only was there no Eucharistic service (despite the canonical requirement that there be one), but there was also no service aimed at adults, except perhaps those with very small children in tow. That doesn't suggest a lack of resources, it suggest a lack of caring.
(And, yes, they were having 'Midnight Communion with Carols' on Christmas Eve, and no, that does not absolve them for the requirement to have Communion on the Sunday before the Eve as well).
Or does this reflect the fact that they "knew their market" (yes, I know it's a horrible phrase)and adapted what was on offer to what they knew most people would attend.
By the way, it would be interested to know what day of the week Christmas fell on that year; we certainly notice different attendance patterns around Christmas when it falls on a Saturday or a Monday. (But, then, we have no Canon Law to follow!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Are you sure none of these churches had a regular communion service at 8.00 every Sunday? That's the standard default for MOTR and I would guess the majority of evangelical parishes. If there is no eucharist anywhere in a parish on a Sunday they are in breach of Canon Law.
Yes, I am reasonably sure. On that Sunday there were no Eucharistic services mentioned. Certainly none was advertized in such a way that someone new to the village might be able to find it. Apparently this is their normal schedule:
Church A: Parish Eucharist on 1st and 2nd Sundays, All-Age Worship (specifically listed as 'without communion) on 3rd Sundays. Additional parish Eucharist on the 4th Sunday of every third month.
Church B: Holy Communion on first and third sundays, 'morning worship' on 2nd Sundays. Additional Holy Communion on the 4th Sunday of every third month.
Church C: No services listed at all, but it is implied that there (from the other church) that they have a parish communion there on the 4th Sunday of every third month.
So, it does look like they normally do stick to the letter of the canons with regards to a minimum celebration of Holy Communion (although it's not clear what happens on 5th Sundays).
BUT: There is no mention that the Office is prayed regularly in any of the churches (as required by canon) and there is no mention of ANY regular services on Sunday evening or on any week day.
This is a benefice with a full time vicar for three churches. My guess would be that the vicar celebrates or officiates at two or maybe three services, which is a fair number for a Sunday Morning but not for an entire week!
In contrast, in the nearest town of any note there are several churches in the town centre (far more than any reasonable person would include today!). Churchmanship, one is straight BCP lowish and liberal, the official 'Town Church' is much the same but uses CW some the time and has a choral tradition, one is Prayer Book Catholic, one is Modern Catholic, one is so liberal it's basically unitarian, one is conservative evangelical, and one is charismatic evangelical.
Not all of these churches have a full time vicar. But ALL of them have a Sunday evening service (choral evensong, chanted evensong, said evening prayer, 'contemplative service', or simply 'Sundays at 6' for the evangelicals, and all but the two Evangelical ones have weekday services as well (both the Prayer Book Catholic and Modern Catholic places manage to have the Eucharist and daily office every day).
There's a difference there that can't be explained entirely by a difference in resources.
ETA: Baptist Trainfan, Christmas was on a Tuesday last year.
[ 12. September 2013, 13:16: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
BUT: There is no mention that the Office is prayed regularly in any of the churches (as required by canon)
BCP requires a CofE Priest to say the Offices daily. It is only preferable, but evidently not required, that it is done in Church after the tolling of the bell...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
Ignore the post above, I lied!
Too many Priests seem to run this sentence:
quote:
And all Priests and Deacons are to say daily the Morning and Evening Prayer either privately or openly, not being let by sickness, or some other urgent cause.
into the next one and justify to themselves that the privately in the sentence above applies in all circumstances where in fact the sentence does read;
quote:
And the Curate that ministereth in every Parish-Church or Chapel, being at home, and not being otherwise reasonably hindered, shall say the same in the Parish-Church or Chapel where he ministereth, and shall cause a Bell to be tolled thereunto a convenient time before he begin, that the people may come to hear God's Word, and to pray with him.
But then most Parish priests would quibble over their status as 'curates' and so deem that the rules do not apply to them on a semantic technicality of sorts.
Mea culpa for my error on the wording, I've been hanging around low people who don't care enough for the offices or the liturgy, for too long!
[ 12. September 2013, 13:51: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
Please forgive the third post in a row... my brain is not working today...
The confusion of course comes from the way in which the word Curate is now used in the modern Anglican Church, which has taken on the more Roman Catholic meaning of subordinate priest rather than the BCP meaning of Parish Priest...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Or does this reflect the fact that they "knew their market" (yes, I know it's a horrible phrase)and adapted what was on offer to what they knew most people would attend.
It is a horrible phrase, BTF. No disrespect to you and your tradition, which if I understand correctly does not regard public liturgy as the primary context of spirituality.
But in the Anglican tradition it has always been understood that the liturgy of the church should be offered irrespective of numbers or popularity. As a minimum this has meant the daily office (Communion, according to the BCP, should not be celebrated without communicants, and hence during the 17th and 18th century was held infrequently.) It should be a priest's duty - and their joy - to offer the liturgy of the Church on the Lord's Day, whatever other non-liturgical events might be on offer. And these days there is no excuse for not advertising Holy Communion and expecting some communicants at least.
It is ironic that 50 or more years ago someone brought up in a MOTR church would feel at sea in most anglo-catholic churches, but recognise the liturgy and feel at home in most evangelical ones. Now that the latter have largely deserted traditional liturgy, and the former have simplified theirs, someone brought up on weekly Parish Communion would be much more at home in a Sung Mass and incense sort of place than an unsacramental Praise Band one.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It's very sad. (ie no eucharist. I'd be amazed to get morning prayer if there's a eucharist and in North London, the churches I knew didn't do evensong.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What's the matter with rural churches?
Depends on whether you are talking about small rural towns or villages.
Villages - small ones - have problems for a variety of reasons which can include: - no incumbent/ suspension of benefice for years at a time
Lack of an incumbent/suspension of benefice makes parishioners feel unloved: leaving the benefice suspended (I know of one rural parish which has been in suspension for at least 20 years) is almost guaranteed to sap the will of even the most committed and outgoing congregation. - appointment of an NSM to cover a cluster of rural churches
An NSM, however hard-working and willing, simply doesn't have the time to devote to running several parishes. Appointing house-for-duty priests can help but on the whole retired clergy aren't prepared to put in 5-6 day weeks just for the privilege of living in a badly maintained village vicarage - no incumbent tends to mean no one going forward for Reader training
Which is serious because, in the absence of a dedicated incumbent, Readers can be the glue that holds a parish together and provides the first port of call for people requiring baptism, marriage or funeral services. - ageing population
If the population of the village is ageing it stands to reason that some will die, others will find it hard to get to church: lack of basic services - buses, pavements and street-lighting, in particular - aren't seen as an issue by younger car-driving clergy but the lack of a level pavement between home and church can be enough to stop an OAP being able to get to church. - dwindling number of involved lay people to run things
The general decline in the number of people attending church also affects rural areas. - decreasing permanent population who work locally
People under retirement age who live in smaller villages tend to have to travel a greater distance to work so are out of the village for longer during the week. They also tend to be in the type of role that demands long hours - how else to fund the desirable thatched cottage? - rise in the number of holiday homes
The increasing number of holiday homes in some villages means there are few active parishioners under retirement age with the time - never mind willingness - to run the parish. In one parish I know nearly a third of houses are second-homes: by-and-large second home-owners won't serve on PCCs, sing in choirs, run Sunday Schools (where there are still children to go), mow churchyard grass, etc, etc. Of course, when their offspring reach their 20s they may want to use the church for a wedding but that will be the only time you see them.
If rural churches don't have a decent hymn book more than likely it has nothing to do with the preferences of the congregation - they are more likely to have to use Mission Praise through the whim of a departed incumbent and are stuck with it because they can't afford to replace with something better - possibly even the old books that were heedlessly dumped.
If they have a confused or confusing mish-mash of liturgical styles that is likely to be down to being without a single person in charge of organising the liturgy.
Of course, there is always the exception: one rural parish near me was almost at the point of not being able to even co-opt a quorum for its PCC. What made the difference was (a) the announcement that their benefice was to have its period of suspension extended (again) that they only heard about when it was published in the diocesan newsletter; (b) an attempt to use its income to subsidise the much larger parish with whom it is forced to share an incumbent; (c) the appointment of the one candidate to the 2 parishes that the really couldn't stand; (d) the decision to exclude all but 1 of their churchwardens from the I&D service.
And our ArchDeacon is one of those who has been heard speaking at length about his "concern" for rural ministry... ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Friends of mine who are solidly ango-catholic live in a village whose church had a catholic tradition, 20 years ago when they moved there, including daily mass and offices.
The NSM, aged 80, has decided to give up and two readers have moved away.
They are now advertising for a new parish priest. The new job requires him or her to minister to 7 country churches, each with average Sunday attendance in the low thirties.
The remuneration is a rectory and 1/6th stipend.
That is enough to explain the dire state of some rural churches.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If rural churches don't have a decent hymn book more than likely it has nothing to do with the preferences of the congregation - they are more likely to have to use Mission Praise through the whim of a departed incumbent and are stuck with it because they can't afford to replace with something better - possibly even the old books that were heedlessly dumped.
Mission Praise isn't that bad. About a quarter of it is usable (which is probably why its hymn numbers now run to four digits). Arguably it has a greater number of decent hymns than AMR. It would be far worse if they'd been lumbered with Songs of Fellowship.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If they have a confused or confusing mish-mash of liturgical styles that is likely to be down to being without a single person in charge of organising the liturgy.
Not just a rural problem, sadly. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If rural churches don't have a decent hymn book more than likely it has nothing to do with the preferences of the congregation - they are more likely to have to use Mission Praise through the whim of a departed incumbent and are stuck with it because they can't afford to replace with something better - possibly even the old books that were heedlessly dumped.
Mission Praise isn't that bad. About a quarter of it is usable (which is probably why its hymn numbers now run to four digits). Arguably it has a greater number of decent hymns than AMR. It would be far worse if they'd been lumbered with Songs of Fellowship.
This.Is.True.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Last time I looked this group of 6 parishes was part of a cluster of three groups, with 2 ministers to cover all 18 churches, which surprised me as there were three town churches included in that grouping. But checking now it does look as if the town churches are doing much better than they were then and have several services every Sunday. So it sounds as if not all rural ministries are in decline.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I've lost the statistics, but I read that there are more people attending church in rural areas than there are in urban areas, as a proportion of the population.
It could be said that these rural churches, despite low numbers (11 last time I visited one - it was a small village) are the real successes in Anglicanism, rather than urban mega-churches.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I've lost the statistics, but I read that there are more people attending church in rural areas than there are in urban areas, as a proportion of the population.
In Wales at least, that's not entirely true. Some urban areas tend to best the rural ones: a vast swathe of north Cardiff from Llandaff to Lisvane and Cyncoed is the really obvious one. The big factors that correlate to Christianity doing badly are:
1) votes cast in elections for the Labour Party;
2) ethnic minorities; and:
3) students.
Of course, those are three factors that are more common in urban areas than in rural ones, but they are not common to every urban area.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I've lost the statistics, but I read that there are more people attending church in rural areas than there are in urban areas, as a proportion of the population.
In Wales at least, that's not entirely true. Some urban areas tend to best the rural ones: a vast swathe of north Cardiff from Llandaff to Lisvane and Cyncoed is the really obvious one. The big factors that correlate to Christianity doing badly are:
1) votes cast in elections for the Labour Party;
2) ethnic minorities; and:
3) students.
Of course, those are three factors that are more common in urban areas than in rural ones, but they are not common to every urban area.
Could you please explain how numbers 1 and 3 adversely affect Christianity in Wales? I would have thought that students in particular would bolster churches, albeit probably not Anglican churches.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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