Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
but my impression has always been that 'Pioneer Ministry' is (to paraphrase a Fry and Laurie sketch about the SAS) less of a reality on the ground and more of masturbatory aid for aging archdeacons and balding bishops who want to prove they're 'still with it'. The same is broadly true, although perhaps to a lesser extent, of 'Fresh Expressions' (which is conclusively and damning discussed by the Rev'd Prof. Alison Millbank, a brilliant theologian who also happens to be a woman and ordained).

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I say 'somewhat naughtily' because my phrasing was, if I'm honest, meant in part to shock and also because I have absolutely no experience of 'Fresh Expressions'. There are certainly none where I live.

Frankly, I have little idea about what's meant by the term. From an (breathlessly adulatory) Mystery Worshiper, it looks like a pretty standard CofE liturgy plus a bit of technology, some rather middle class attempts at being multicultural (which definitely sound open to accusations of cultural appropriation). I can't help but feel it's just window dressing aimed at a very specific demographic (evidently middle class, white baby boomers). I seem to remember the correspondent for the Church Times was unimpressed.

Now, fine, if people want to do that sort of thing, then I'm sure it's the sort of thing they'll want to do. But it doesn't seem likely that it's going to set the church ablaze.

The Church of England is liturgically very broad. I myself find a wide range of liturgical styles very helpful and moving, from the traditional Anglo-Catholic Pontifical High Mass down to a BCP said service in tippet and surplice (by way of such variations as the modern Catholic concelabrated mass, the MOTR Cathedral Eucharist, and even the much-derrided 'folk mass'). I also adore choral mattins and like a nice hymn sandwich from time to time. I short, there's not much liturgical variety in the Church of England of which I have not taken part. I've been to services in London where a (predominately Jamaican congregation) sang the ordinary of the mass accompanied by steel drums, and I've been to 'jazz Evensong'. I've even sung one or two worship choruses ( I may even have enjoyed them ).

Given this huge variety, I'm not sure what Fresh Expressions is meant to add that isn't there already. I suppose that's not too much of a problem, but I do have two further concerns:

1. Fresh Expressions seems fetishized at the expense of the ministry of normal 'parochial' and chaplaincy clergy, who after all do the overwhelming majority of ministry in the Church of England. of the

2. I feel that Fresh Expressions is meant to engage the young. It doesn't. They're not interested in it. I'm in my twenties myself, and I feel reasonably confident in saying that young people either go to church or don't,* and that those that do overwhelmingly go to 'normal' parish churches (often higher than average, in fact). I know far more ordinands than can possibly be healthy (seriously, is everyone being ordained these days?) and none of them are training for 'Pioneer Ministry' (does this really exist, I've seen zero evidence for it).


Am I missing some Damascene insight on this issue?

***********************
*There is an additional category of young people who have some connection Christianity but don't go to church. In my experience, though, they're not likely to be good candidates for Fresh Expressions given that the churches with which they identify (but to which they do not go), are in more or less descending order, the Roman Catholic Church, MOTR to highish Anglicanism, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and Welsh Chapel/Northern English Non-conformism.

[ 04. March 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: seasick ]

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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meanwhile, a FE church has managed to keep me, Mrs Backslider and the kids within the church when we'd nearly given up.

So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
Nope. Sorry. That UBB cocktail is beyond me. Perhaps the OP can PM me if he has any indication where his "somewhat naughty" quote appears. Or doesn't.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meanwhile, a FE church has managed to keep me, Mrs Backslider and the kids within the church when we'd nearly given up.

So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
If it had actually contributed to your progress in the Church, we might expect less doubt about the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, and the Real Presence... As it is, I can only imagine it's stroking your spiritual ego, or equivalent.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meanwhile, a FE church has managed to keep me, Mrs Backslider and the kids within the church when we'd nearly given up.

So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

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If it had actually contributed to your progress in the Church, we might expect less doubt about the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, and the Real Presence... As it is, I can only imagine it's stroking your spiritual ego, or equivalent.

This is one of the problems with FE: it's usually (not often, but too frequently to be an accident) devoid of any sense of theology or ecclesiology, and very light on doctrine or catechesis. What began as a (slightly sad and retrograde) attempt to return people (quite rightly) to the Church became instead the fatuous "new way of being Church" (a phrase to loath for its grammar if nothing else), to the detriment of Parish life and an ordered understanding of the Church.

Much of which is admirably counter-attacked in Andrew Davison and Alison Milbank, "For the Parish: A Critique of Fresh Expressions"

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meanwhile, a FE church has managed to keep me, Mrs Backslider and the kids within the church when we'd nearly given up.

So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

---

If it had actually contributed to your progress in the Church, we might expect less doubt about the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, and the Real Presence... As it is, I can only imagine it's stroking your spiritual ego, or equivalent.

This is one of the problems with FE: it's usually (not often, but too frequently to be an accident) devoid of any sense of theology or ecclesiology, and very light on doctrine or catechesis. What began as a (slightly sad and retrograde) attempt to return people (quite rightly) to the Church became instead the fatuous "new way of being Church" (a phrase to loath for its grammar if nothing else), to the detriment of Parish life and an ordered understanding of the Church.

Much of which is admirably counter-attacked in Andrew Davison and Alison Milbank, "For the Parish: A Critique of Fresh Expressions"

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
This is one of the problems with FE: it's usually (not often, but too frequently to be an accident) devoid of any sense of theology or ecclesiology, and very light on doctrine or catechesis. What began as a (slightly sad and retrograde) attempt to return people (quite rightly) to the Church became instead the fatuous "new way of being Church" (a phrase to loath for its grammar if nothing else), to the detriment of Parish life and an ordered understanding of the Church.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meanwhile, a FE church has managed to keep me, Mrs Backslider and the kids within the church when we'd nearly given up.

So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

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If it had actually contributed to your progress in the Church, we might expect less doubt about the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, and the Real Presence... As it is, I can only imagine it's stroking your spiritual ego, or equivalent.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Meanwhile, a FE church has managed to keep me, Mrs Backslider and the kids within the church when we'd nearly given up.

So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

---

If it had actually contributed to your progress in the Church, we might expect less doubt about the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, and the Real Presence... As it is, I can only imagine it's stroking your spiritual ego, or equivalent.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Bostonman:

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
This is one of the problems with FE: it's usually (not often, but too frequently to be an accident) devoid of any sense of theology or ecclesiology, and very light on doctrine or catechesis. What began as a (slightly sad and retrograde) attempt to return people (quite rightly) to the Church became instead the fatuous "new way of being Church" (a phrase to loath for its grammar if nothing else), to the detriment of Parish life and an ordered understanding of the Church.

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You're presenting a ridiculous false zero-sum fight between Fresh Expressions and True Parish Church, in which Fresh Expressions is stealing away members from TPC. Karl is suggesting that, for some people, it's really between Fresh Expressions and No Church; True Parish Church won't happen for them. Some might at least hope that there's an eventual FE -> TPC move, in a way that there won't really be a No Church -> TPC move for most people.

Others would say that Christian worship is Christian worship, and that it's better than no worship at all, no matter what its precise form.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
Tubbs, I think that your "in spirit and truth" are precisely where VM's objections come from here.

Thurible

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But where would you draw that particular line?! It has to be based on something more meaningful than worship I like is whilst worship I don't isn't.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

Posted                       

• the pram service - which deliberately fed into the church services;
• the monthly support group for bereaved following funerals;
• youth work in the community (I really questioned this one)

Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
...the fatuous "new way of being Church" (a phrase to loath for its grammar if nothing else), to the detriment of Parish life and an ordered understanding of the Church...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So you know what you can do with your ignorant and judgemental bullshit, don't you? Fuck off.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
He included

• the pram service - which deliberately fed into the church services;
• the monthly support group for bereaved following funerals;
• youth work in the community (I really questioned this one)

He missed seeing the Beer and Bible bible reading group that's based in a pub - a monthly group who choose to meet in a pub. I *think*, but am not sure, that they meet in an upstairs room, not in the bar.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
I don't contend for one moment that FE steals people (clerical or lay) away from Parish ministry (though it may very well do): rather that it saps energy, imagination and intellectual manpower, draining it away from revitalisation of the liturgy, of parochial ministry, of the clerical calling, and drains it into a great sink-hole which, to mix metaphors, is indeed a blind alley leading nowhere.

And this is, as Thurible discerns so succinctly, the problem I have (I am far from alone, it seems): what began as Fresh Expression of Church is now usually just Fresh Expressions - a linguistic mirror of the emptiness of so many of these benighted enterprises, too often novel for the sake of novelty.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by gog:
Can I just put in a reminder that Fresh Expressions (FE) under it's formal banner extends beyond the CofE, and that for others involved with FE (as for some within the CofE), there is not a do trad or FE it is more often do both.

Also I think that FE is a label that has brought together a lot of things that might have been happening otherwise, such as those that Curiosity killed ... lists. What I think the label allows is some working together on things.

Also going back to the OP, I don't think there is a Damascus road thing here. And for some it is the latest fashion accessory that is the must have. However for some idea about what it is http://www.freshexpressions.org.uk/ might be a source.

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Indeed; perusal of that site would show that the things in that list are probably not what would be considered FE by the actual FE programme. I sometimes wonder if people hear the expression, don't realise it refers to a specific programme, and assume they can plonk it on anything a bit different. Not that these initiatives aren't necessarily worthwhile, but FE as understood by the above website and the official programme they are not. The church in the pub might be

Svit - I'm not aware that our FE was set up by an existing congregation, well-heeled or otherwise - in fact, I'm pretty sure it was cut out of whole cloth.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Svit - I'm not aware that our FE was set up by an existing congregation, well-heeled or otherwise - in fact, I'm pretty sure it was cut out of whole cloth.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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How would its leadership respond to the sort of criticisms made in 'For the Parish'? The fact that it's 'outside the parish system' would seem to mean that it's precisely the sort of arrangement which most concerns the Rev'd Drs and Milband and Davison.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by pererin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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So a proprietary chapel under another name?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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How would its leadership respond to the sort of criticisms made in 'For the Parish'? The fact that it's 'outside the parish system' would seem to mean that it's precisely the sort of arrangement which most concerns the Rev'd Drs and Milband and Davison.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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How would its leadership respond to the sort of criticisms made in 'For the Parish'? The fact that it's 'outside the parish system' would seem to mean that it's precisely the sort of arrangement which most concerns the Rev'd Drs and Milband and Davison.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by *Leon*:
Sorry for the double post. I have a question:
What exactly (in practice) is a pioneer minister?

How does their training differ to that of an ordinary ordinand (now that there are pioneer ministry paths at some colleges)? How many actually exist, what do they typically do and how many of those have stipends?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Would you be so kind to read my long post again where I explain in some detail how the parish system didn't work for us?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by *Leon*:
Sorry for the double post. I have a question:
What exactly (in practice) is a pioneer minister?

How does their training differ to that of an ordinary ordinand (now that there are pioneer ministry paths at some colleges)? How many actually exist, what do they typically do and how many of those have stipends?

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You'd probably be best addressing those questions to +Graham Cray's office. He's the head honcho for FE in the CofE.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Would you be so kind to read my long post again where I explain in some detail how the parish system didn't work for us?

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I did actually. It seems to me that your complaint was essentially that the parish churches in your area didn't have particularly good programs for children. I must admit that such programs have never been high on my own list for a church (even when I was a child, I much preferred 'grown up' church), but I can see why it would be for some people. However, it seems to be at most a critique of parish churches in your area, rather than evidence that the parochial system has failed per se.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by pererin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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So a proprietary chapel under another name?

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Wikipedia says that "A proprietary chapel is a chapel that originally belonged to a private person." - if that is so, then no, it isn't.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
I don't contend for one moment that FE steals people (clerical or lay) away from Parish ministry (though it may very well do): rather that it saps energy, imagination and intellectual manpower, draining it away from revitalisation of the liturgy, of parochial ministry, of the clerical calling, and drains it into a great sink-hole which, to mix metaphors, is indeed a blind alley leading nowhere.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by pererin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by pererin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a new congregation outside of the parish system.

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So a proprietary chapel under another name?

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Wikipedia says that "A proprietary chapel is a chapel that originally belonged to a private person." - if that is so, then no, it isn't.

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That's a bit narrow on the legal definition of a person. To pick a particularly (in)famous example, take a look at what Emmanuel Church, Wimbledon, have to say about themselves:

"It is fully self-supporting in funding Emmanuel staff and ministry, and appoints its own clergy under the guidance of an appointed group of patrons. It has always owned and funded its own buildings."

Is that the basic reality of the FE set up?

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