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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When it comes to things like this I think many create a false dichotomy by making it look like if you choose one you automatically ignore the other. There is no such thing as the "social" gospel or the "prosperity" gospel or whatever. There is only one gospel and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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The social gospel sees with a very clear eye that people are living in terrible housing conditions; that their children have little or no educational future; that the aged and disabled are being brushed aside by the enterprise culture. It relates all these and similar issues to God’s loving concern for every part of our lives, and then bases a mission strategy on the need for the church to do something practical and positive about such social evils…Social gospel people tend to be involved with community and maybe political compaigns (sic), and usually come from a liberal or middle-of-the-road theological background…The spiritual gospel attitude sees with an equally clear eye that people are living without Christ; that they have little or no experience of the joy of knowing God in this life, and nothing to look forward to in the future. It relates this to the love of God and the saving death of Christ, and then bases a mission strategy on the need for the church to reach out and tell people of Jesus and his gift of eternal life…Spiritual gospel people tend to be very involved with congregational and maybe even evangelistic campaigns, and usually come from an Evangelical or Anglo-Catholic background...The Jesus gospel [OTOH] holds together and actually puts into practice the social and the spiritual gospel. It represents the full depth and breadth of God’s love, without missing anything out. It confronts sin and offers salvation in two overlapping zones, the corporate zone and the individual zone...The Jesus gospel brings judgement for the victimisers and compassion and healing for the victims, into this corporate zone…[and] brings judgement against all evil, but it also offers forgiveness and salvation to all evil-doers who are prepared to change their ways and believe

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Originally posted by L'organist:
state as fact that no one chooses to leech on the state is not only naive but untrue: to base government policy on such naivety is unaffordable

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Originally posted by L'organist:

There is also an unwillingness to recognise that for every 100 (or whatever) people in poverty desperate to get out of it and willing to do everything in their power so to do, there are people who fail entirely to see that there has to be a real, as well as implied, social contract between those who fund 'the system' and those who at one time or another benefit from it. To imply or state as fact that no one chooses to leech on the state is not only naive but untrue: to base government policy on such naivety is unaffordable,

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Originally posted by L'organist:
There is also an unwillingness to recognise that for every 100 (or whatever) people in poverty desperate to get out of it and willing to do everything in their power so to do, there are people who fail entirely to see that there has to be a real, as well as implied, social contract between those who fund 'the system' and those who at one time or another benefit from it. To imply or state as fact that no one chooses to leech on the state is not only naive but untrue: to base government policy on such naivety is unaffordable, not only in economic terms but also in relation to the implicit trust that taxpayers need to have towards the state institutions that spend their money.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

The government is neither capable nor suitable to address all of these problems. That's where the church needs to step in. By loving and helping people as Jesus did, we can help them become productive members of society by freeing them of the evils and ailments that plague their lives.

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

The government is neither capable nor suitable to address all of these problems. That's where the church needs to step in. By loving and helping people as Jesus did, we can help them become productive members of society by freeing them of the evils and ailments that plague their lives.

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There are plenty of non- faith charities which do just this, and do it without the ulterior motive of gaining converts.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
<snip> By loving and helping people as Jesus did, we can help them become productive members of society by freeing them of the evils and ailments that plague their lives.

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• on the ASD spectrum with severe depression and self-medication with alcohol;
• disabled by cancer with children with disabilities;
• disabled with multiple conditions - diabetes, bi-polar, knees awaiting transplants, sleep apnoea - claiming benefits as is their full-time carer (both these have worked in the past and are volunteering);
• a couple where the husband is recovering from cancer, they have young children, an older disabled child and poor English skills.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
seekingsiter, how do you envisage that churches are able to free people of the "evils and ailments" of their lives?

The people I can think of who would probably get castigated as leeches are:

• on the ASD spectrum with severe depression and self-medication with alcohol;
• disabled by cancer with children with disabilities;
• disabled with multiple conditions - diabetes, bi-polar, knees awaiting transplants, sleep apnoea - claiming benefits as is their full-time carer (both these have worked in the past and are volunteering);
• a couple where the husband is recovering from cancer, they have young children, an older disabled child and poor English skills.

Are we expecting churches to manage miracles of healing? Or can we trust in medical progress? You know those hospitals and other organisations paid for by the State?

What on earth is the church going to do to support people such as these, even if all or any of them were Christian.

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
There's a matter of priorities. Do the rights of the exploited taxpayers over-ride the right of a safety net for those who fall victim to the system. (Remember, without the pool of unemployed, and without the flexible working contracts, the system would never make the tax payers half as rich!)

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

The government is neither capable nor suitable to address all of these problems. That's where the church needs to step in. By loving and helping people as Jesus did, we can help them become productive members of society by freeing them of the evils and ailments that plague their lives.

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There are plenty of non- faith charities which do just this, and do it without the ulterior motive of gaining converts.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed - and William Booth addressed it all in 1890 with his book, 'In Darkest England, and the way out.'

The mission statement of the Salvation Army in the UK is to "Save Souls, Grow Saints and Serve Suffering Humanity."

the vision statement is that "As disciples of Jesus Christ, we will be a Spirit-filled, radical growing movement with a burning desire to lead people into a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, actively serve the community, and fight for social justice."

The worldwide Salvation Army, active in 126 countries, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church.
Its message is based on the Bible.
Its ministry is motivated by the love of God.
Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in his name without discrimination.

You see, you can be conservative, evangelical and preach the social gospel alongside individual salvation. I really fail to see either the dichotomy or the reason for this being seen as a new thing.

Maybe it's because we've just gotten on with it without writing too many academic papers about it all!

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Originally posted by Matt Black:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

The government is neither capable nor suitable to address all of these problems. That's where the church needs to step in. By loving and helping people as Jesus did, we can help them become productive members of society by freeing them of the evils and ailments that plague their lives.

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There are plenty of non- faith charities which do just this, and do it without the ulterior motive of gaining converts.

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Why is trying to expose people to Jesus' salvation an 'ulterior motive'? You make it sound as if this is a negative; I view it as overwhelmingly positive.

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

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Originally posted by L'organist:

There is also an unwillingness to recognise that for every 100 (or whatever) people in poverty desperate to get out of it and willing to do everything in their power so to do, there are people who fail entirely to see that there has to be a real, as well as implied, social contract between those who fund 'the system' and those who at one time or another benefit from it. To imply or state as fact that no one chooses to leech on the state is not only naive but untrue: to base government policy on such naivety is unaffordable,

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I think there is also an unwillingness to accept just how few leeches there are. You quote 100 (or whatever) who wish to leave poverty, but conveniently gloss over any suggestion of just how many leeches there might be among them. I'm sure there are those who subsidise their benefits with criminal activities. I'm not so convinced that anyone can afford to choose to raise a family on state benefits alone. By implying that it's a large proportion, you and the current UK government, put the welfare of the honest victims at risk in a vain search for saving a few quid by denying the dishonest ones their ill-gotten prize.

There's a matter of priorities. Do the rights of the exploited taxpayers over-ride the right of a safety net for those who fall victim to the system. (Remember, without the pool of unemployed, and without the flexible working contracts, the system would never make the tax payers half as rich!)

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Because lots of people don't want to convert and they are perfectly entitled to not want that.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

The government is neither capable nor suitable to address all of these problems. That's where the church needs to step in. By loving and helping people as Jesus did, we can help them become productive members of society by freeing them of the evils and ailments that plague their lives.

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There are plenty of non- faith charities which do just this, and do it without the ulterior motive of gaining converts.

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Why is trying to expose people to Jesus' salvation an 'ulterior motive'? You make it sound as if this is a negative; I view it as overwhelmingly positive.

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Because lots of people don't want to convert and they are perfectly entitled to not want that.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think that the extreme right wing of the Republican Party has a lot to do with it - I'm surprised at you claiming that the SA is 'the most conservative' in theology, doctrine and ethics. There are many more conservative groups! The far right of the Republican Party are happy to starve children in the name of Jesus.

I'm also saddened but not surprised by the anti-intellectualism in your post, as if writing academic papers is somehow not what real Christians do. In this post and in the one about the SA documentary, I do see a lot of unhelpful and un-Christian reverse snobbery around the SA.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We still despise the poor to an unbelievable extent. I don't think we have faintest idea how bad we are. How unjust, how unfair, how inequitable, how selfish, how judgemental, how blind, naked ... poor we are. How unrighteous.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think that the extreme right wing of the Republican Party has a lot to do with it - I'm surprised at you claiming that the SA is 'the most conservative' in theology, doctrine and ethics. There are many more conservative groups! The far right of the Republican Party are happy to starve children in the name of Jesus.

I'm also saddened but not surprised by the anti-intellectualism in your post, as if writing academic papers is somehow not what real Christians do. In this post and in the one about the SA documentary, I do see a lot of unhelpful and un-Christian reverse snobbery around the SA.

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I wasn't aware that the Republican Party was a church. The Salvation Army has not changed its doctrines in 150 years and we are passionately conservative.

The not writing academic papers was nothing to do with anti-intellectualism - we are not anti-intellectual in the slightest. My comment about not writing academic documents was a comment on the fact that people seem to see the social Gospel as a new thing in the church, not compatible in the evangelical movement - I was suggesting that people don't know that we have been combining the two because, not having written much but doing it quietly instead, people don't know too much of our work and especially our theology.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We still despise the poor to an unbelievable extent. I don't think we have faintest idea how bad we are. How unjust, how unfair, how inequitable, how selfish, how judgemental, how blind, naked ... poor we are. How unrighteous.

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I don't recognise The Salvation Army in that statement.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think conservative evangelicalism absolutely despises the poor, and is a natural ancestor of the idea of the 'deserving poor'.

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Agree. This whole "prosperity to those who are True (TM) in their practice" is poison and misses the point of the social gospel. And it places fault where there mostly is none at all. And it does not help. Still, it attracts millions in places like Brazil

What do we (and by "we" I mean all those who are non-conservative evangelicals) have to set against it?

As an RC I really hope Pope Francis can get his message (uncomfortable to many as it may be, I admit to struggling myself) through. Loud and clear. At the risk of losing popularity brownie-points.

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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Offer temporary respite from the symptoms of poverty, whilst supporting the systems that keep people in poverty.

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I was hungry
And you formed a humanities group
to discuss my hunger

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But I am still hungry
and lonely
and cold

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Offer temporary respite from the symptoms of poverty, whilst supporting the systems that keep people in poverty.

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Indeed Mudfrog

Vote Labor and post political screeds on the internet. What more does Our Lord require of us than that? And,if Our Lord does, all will be forgiven anyway.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think conservative evangelicalism absolutely despises the poor, and is a natural ancestor of the idea of the 'deserving poor'.

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I read yesterday a prayer* that started:

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I was hungry
And you formed a humanities group
to discuss my hunger

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it ends

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But I am still hungry
and lonely
and cold

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It is not aimed at the well intention activist Evangelical who would have met, fed and clothed them while perhaps not questioning why they were so.

Jengie

*From "Wisdom is Calling" which is edited by Geoffrey Duncan and the prayer is written by "Crosspoints, Sri Lanka" pg 58

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Republican Party often operates as if it is a church, and most of their politicians are explicitly 'Christian'. Tying conservatism to Christianity by them has done immense damage to the idea of compassionate conservative Christianity, it's not very difficult to understand that. The SA not changing its doctrines in 150 years does not mean there are not more conservative Christians in existence. Tea Party Christians are undoubtedly more conservative in most ways than the SA. That's not a bad thing for the SA!

Evangelicalism also doesn't automatically mean conservative and it's unfair to conflate the two - many liberal/open evangelicals exist and they are still evangelicals.

I personally don't think the social gospel is a new thing at all, and Nonconformists, Anglo-Catholics and RCs have done incredible work for it. I do, however, feel that political conservatism is incompatible with the social gospel or any other idea in the Gospel, because capitalism is incompatible in the same way. I am inclined to think that theological conservatism is usually incompatible with it too.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I have never said that feeding and clothing people is not needed - both are definitely needed. Being without food and shelter makes a person temporarily cold and hungry, governmental systems keep them permanently so. Both the temporary and permanent needs are important and both need addressing. I would certainly not suggest setting up a 'humanities group'(not sure what that is sorry) and just discuss things. The well-intentioned evangelical, without questioning why the poor are poor, guarantees that the cycle continues. It's surely worth stopping that from happening.

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think conservative evangelicalism absolutely despises the poor, and is a natural ancestor of the idea of the 'deserving poor'.

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What is your evidence for this? Other than not liking conservative evangelicalism.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Republican Party often operates as if it is a church, and most of their politicians are explicitly 'Christian'. Tying conservatism to Christianity by them has done immense damage to the idea of compassionate conservative Christianity, it's not very difficult to understand that. The SA not changing its doctrines in 150 years does not mean there are not more conservative Christians in existence. Tea Party Christians are undoubtedly more conservative in most ways than the SA. That's not a bad thing for the SA!

Evangelicalism also doesn't automatically mean conservative and it's unfair to conflate the two - many liberal/open evangelicals exist and they are still evangelicals.

I personally don't think the social gospel is a new thing at all, and Nonconformists, Anglo-Catholics and RCs have done incredible work for it. I do, however, feel that political conservatism is incompatible with the social gospel or any other idea in the Gospel, because capitalism is incompatible in the same way. I am inclined to think that theological conservatism is usually incompatible with it too.

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Actually I think you and I are using the word 'conservative' in different way. you are talking 'conservative politics', I am talking conservative doctrine and ethics.'

In this country (UK) you can be a conservative evangelical and a socialist.

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I have never said that feeding and clothing people is not needed - both are definitely needed. Being without food and shelter makes a person temporarily cold and hungry, governmental systems keep them permanently so. Both the temporary and permanent needs are important and both need addressing. I would certainly not suggest setting up a 'humanities group'(not sure what that is sorry) and just discuss things. The well-intentioned evangelical, without questioning why the poor are poor, guarantees that the cycle continues. It's surely worth stopping that from happening.

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And what makes you think that TSA is not doing stuff to try and stop the cycle? What part of 'fight for social justice' do you not understand?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

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Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Offer temporary respite from the symptoms of poverty, whilst supporting the systems that keep people in poverty.

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Indeed Mudfrog

Vote Labor and post political screeds on the internet. What more does Our Lord require of us than that? And,if Our Lord does, all will be forgiven anyway.

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I am not under the impression that any modern political party is capable of totally overhauling our current economic systems, and neither do I believe that simply 'posting political screeds on the internet' is real social gospel action. I am fully aware that Our Lord requires much more than that and I think it is incredibly rude to suggest otherwise, it has absolutely no basis in anything I have said.

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