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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Homeschooling
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
No Prophet said: quote:
* have a sister who has children 10 and 15 years younger than mine. She homeschooled. My impression of homeschooling is not positive from that, and from additional research * 've done it as * 've watched utter nonsense be taught as fact and their socialization be crippled. Hopefully it can be corrected later.
My opinion on homeschooling aligns with the law in Germany. It is illegal there and simply not allowed. My opinion on narrow interests from the community imposing non-factual curricula on schools is that this should also not be allowed.
The homeschoolers * 've known have been concerned by (what they've perceived as) falling standards in public/state schools. And the kids * 've met as a result have been (as far as * can tell) well-adjusted and well-informed.
Despite this, my immediate emotional reaction to someone revealing that they're homeschooling their children is similar to the quote from No Prophet. Yet * 'm uncomfortable with the idea of banning it. * 'm not entirely ***** with the idea that the state has a monopoly on education, * guess. Despite being uncomfortable with the idea of private schools...
My (very cursory) scan for anthropological studies of the movement has suggested a gap in the literature...
Don't know quite what * 'm asking but, as a first approximation: homeschooling, good or bad?
[ 20. September 2014, 10:40: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It may be falling standards in some of the English speaking world, but my understanding of the German ban has to do with extreme ideologies, mainly neo-Nazi. My take in western Canada is that homeschooling is ideologies based on some fortress mentality related to some narrow religious ideals, such as creationism, chosen people-ism, and the perceived dangers of those outside of the narrow view. -- I only talk to my sister about things other than her views on these things, and expect to drink soup from bowls without using spoons, and say gosh dang it secretly with her kids when they visit. We might also spit and burp.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Checks the board heading again. Yep, somehow this is in Hell. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Our church organist homeschooled her daughters for several years when the public elementary school they had been attending was closed for budgetary reasons. The girls are now in middle school and high school and are attending a gifted/science oriented school (not sure if it is a private school or a public charter school). They are both excelling and have reached the state science fair finals two years running.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
/Hosting
Like Lyda*Rose suggests, this looks like a serious debate so I'm closing it while the Purgatory hosts consider whether to take it on.
Hosting off/
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
/hosting
A kind Purgatory host has agreed that that board is a better home for this thread, which looks way too reasonable for Hell.
Away you go!
hosting off/
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
Thread re-opened.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
[ 16. May 2014, 11:56: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
But against that, children have rights, including the right to a decent education. Rights are usually protected by the law, and laws are made by the state.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
My goddaughter was home schooled for a year after leaving primary school a year early before going to secondary school. Her parents just thought she would be happier than she was at the primary school.
Homeschooling should be a right. (I think it is a right under the Universal Declaration.) Many people do it for bad reasons. But as with many rights that's better than if the wrong people were in charge and forbade it.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
What if they're complete idiots?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
But against that, children have rights, including the right to a decent education. Rights are usually protected by the law, and laws are made by the state.
But you can't just homeschool any old rubbish. So the state does regulate home schooling. That the state protects rights does not mean the state has to be the enforced provider of education. (As, in fact, independent schools prove.)
Schools just don't suit every child, and some parents don't want the limitations on their family life that school imposes. My kids aren't school age yet, but round where I live the home schooling community is mostly progressive liberal parents who find education in an institution too restrictive, and have formed a collective to cover the bases. I probably won't home school, but have great sympathy with their POV as some schools seem interested in nothing more than their results, and the kids are just a means to an end.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
What if they're complete idiots?
And what if, totally hypothetically, the guy in charge of the schools system is a complete idiot?
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
What if they're complete idiots?
It's STILL better than Statist idiots wielding power.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
What if they're complete idiots?
What of it?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What if they're complete idiots?
I think one should hesitate before giving the state the right to declare people complete idiots. Giving powers to the state on the understanding that it won't abuse them is like putting pigs in a cage with a tiger on the understanding that the tiger won't eat them.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And what if, totally hypothetically, the guy in charge of the schools system is a complete idiot?
But there's not one guy doing it on his own. Obviously everyone from the Minister of Education on down to the local classroom teacher has some input into what gets taught and how. Sometimes good teachers are frustrated by bad curriculum and do their best to teach it in ways that work better for kids. Sometimes terrible teachers can do a lot of damage, but there are other teachers, principals, and school boards who can mitigate those effects. The system certainly doesn't work perfectly, but it IS a system, not one or at most two people making all the decisions that will affect the outcome of a child's education.
Homeschooling -- or unschooling, which is another interesting option -- can be well done and have wonderful results. It can also be horribly done and have terrible results (up to an including being a shield for abuse). I think it should be a right but it should be VERY tightly regulated. Society is abandoning its responsibility to children if government just turns a blind eye and says, "Oh well, whatever parents want to teach them in the privacy of their own home, that's their business."
I have some friends who homeschool (with varying degrees of success in my opinion, not that I get to judge them) and my understanding is that the regulations by which homeschoolers must abide, and the degree of interest the government takes in curriculum and outcomes, varies widely from one jurisdiction to another.
[ 16. May 2014, 12:41: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What if they're complete idiots?
I think one should hesitate before giving the state the right to declare people complete idiots. Giving powers to the state on the understanding that it won't abuse them is like putting pigs in a cage with a tiger on the understanding that the tiger won't eat them.
My understanding is that certain laws exist that have to be satisfied before people can be locked up for their own and others' protection. Judges get involved in these proceedings and that would seem the way to go about it.
In Britain, I believe that is the case, but IANAL nor in the education sector, merely a parent who has had five children go through the UK state education system.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
And what if, totally hypothetically, the guy in charge of the schools system is a complete idiot?
But there's not one guy doing it on his own.
And yet, in the UK, when one raises concerns with teachers and their unions about the system it inevitably does come down to government policy as the problem. I'm not sure "systems" are ever good at raising children, I'm pretty sure the one we have at the moment is not suitable for educating every child, and to decide for their own child is a parents' prerogative.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
What if they're complete idiots?
What of it?
You're comfortable with children's life chances being fucked over because their parents are idiots?
I'm not.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents. That's not to say that I don't agree with a state funded education system open to all, it's just that I believe that it is the parents' prerogative to educate their children as they choose.
What if they're complete idiots?
What of it?
You're comfortable with children's life chances being fucked over because their parents are idiots?
I'm not.
Who decides whether or not they're "idiots"? Bollocks! The state doesn't get to decide that.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
What Sioni Sais said. The same people who decide if they're abusive and the children need taking into care. Judges. It's why we have them.
[ 16. May 2014, 13:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What if they're complete idiots?
I think one should hesitate before giving the state the right to declare people complete idiots. Giving powers to the state on the understanding that it won't abuse them is like putting pigs in a cage with a tiger on the understanding that the tiger won't eat them.
Why? Why the assumption that government can be compared to predators? They might be, but they might not be. Any power can be abused; what powers do we dare give the state if we can't give them any that they could abuse?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
In an ideal world all children would receive education at home to complement what goes on in school.
I know two families who've home-schooled with wildly varying results: one has produced lively young adults all of whom have got into Russell group universities and two of whom are now lecturing while working towards a D.Phil. Not only are they all bright but they have good social skills and a wide circle of friends. But the parents achieved this by (a) taking their offspring to many out-of-school activities - sports clubs and the like - so they met their peers, (b) both working from home and both having pretty stunning academic credentials, and (c) a house large enough to set aside a study room for the children and house an au pair so that mum and dad could take time off and the children learn practical language skils from a native speaker.
In stark contrast the other family have produced 2 (out of 3) under-achievers; the oldest and youngest are both very musical but mother's insistence on teaching them herself has severely limited this aspect of their life. In addition, they had limited social interaction with their peers and are socially gauche even now in their early 30s: both have difficulty forming friendships and neither has ever had a serious romantic friendship. The middle child (the only boy) took matters into his own hands at the age of 13 and - much against his mother's wishes - took himself off to school. He reckons it took him 2 years to catch up with his peers in general subjects and later got into a good university. He now lectures and his children go to school.
Home-schooling is so dependent on parents - usually the mother - and if undertaken to keep children separate can have devastating results.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I went to university with several students who had been home schooled, and (not to toot my own horn) this is a globally recognized university that's pretty tough to get into.
I was reading by age 3 because my mother taught me, despite having a full-time job and my younger sibling to take care of. You'd be surprised what parents can achieve with their own children compared to a teacher who has to deal with 30+ children of varying abilities. Sure, not all parents are suited to home schooling but I think quite a lot of them could do as good a job as the local school.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
One of my nieces developed 'alternative' interests in her late teens and has become what you could only call a hippie. She and her young family are vegans, do not wear shoes, the babies don't wear nappies, they all live in a converted barn and now the children are being home schooled. They do have to follow a prescribed state curriculum but this can be ' bent' to suit. Unfortunately the children are completely feral with no social skills and are likely to stay that way if they don't get the chance to learn social norms at school.I find it quite disturbing that the mother's desire to be 'different' and trendy denies her children the right to a full education. She ascribes to something called Natural Parenting which she interprets as letting the children develop without interference from the parents or society - sound like anarchy to me.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
We hear less about homeschooling in the UK than we used to. Perhaps it's because the middle class families who might have wanted to give their children a highly personalised home education in the past now feel they need to have two salaries coming in to create the lifestyle they want. It's very hard to buy a nice home in a 'good area' if both parents aren't working full-time.
Homeschooling doesn't seem to have caught on among religious families in the UK. Despite the fact that many Muslim women are at home, we don't hear about them trying to homeschool. Even Christian parents with separationist tendencies don't seem enthralled by the idea of homeschooling. (No doubt there are many people who are rather relieved about that.)
Moreover, I suspect that most people feel unsure of their abilities. Education is increasingly left to the specialists - even some quite basic things. The state is expected to cope, or, if an individual has the money, education is just one more service they can pay for. Homeschooling is seen as a last solution if other options have failed, for whatever reason.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I went to university with several students who had been home schooled, and (not to toot my own horn) this is a globally recognized university that's pretty tough to get into.
I was reading by age 3 because my mother taught me, despite having a full-time job and my younger sibling to take care of. You'd be surprised what parents can achieve with their own children compared to a teacher who has to deal with 30+ children of varying abilities. Sure, not all parents are suited to home schooling but I think quite a lot of them could do as good a job as the local school.
You were reading at age 3 because you had the aptitude for it. We have three children, introduced them all to books at a young age, and one reads fluently at 7, one learnt to read fairly quickly, and one finds reading completely inscrutable.
The people you met at university are a self-selecting set. You won't meet the ones whose education was buggered by parents who thought they could home-school but made a pigs' ear of it because they obviously wouldn't be at your university.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I wish more people who homeschooled over here felt uncertain about their abilities. I do know homeschoolers who have the best will in the world, great dedication, and clearly love their kids, but I really doubt their academic ability and I feel this may disadvantage the kids more and more as they get older.
The two best homeschooling moms I know are both qualified teachers themselves who are teaching their own kids rather than taking a job in school. They are also very active in getting their kids involved in extracurricular things in the community -- sometimes as part of the local homeschooling group, other times just by signing them up for a soccer league or whatnot.
Even in those best cases, I wonder if the children's learning may be compromised if homeschooling continues through high school. I know if I wanted to quit work and teach my kids at home they'd have a wonderful English and Social Studies curriculum, probably far superior to what they'd get in school, but it's safe to say their Math and Science would be ... somewhat lacking.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
We hear less about homeschooling in the UK than we used to. Perhaps it's because the middle class families who might have wanted to give their children a highly personalised home education in the past now feel they need to have two salaries coming in to survive It's very hard to afford accommodation at all if both parents aren't working full-time.
Fixed for reality.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You were reading at age 3 because you had the aptitude for it. We have three children, introduced them all to books at a young age, and one reads fluently at 7, one learnt to read fairly quickly, and one finds reading completely inscrutable.
The people you met at university are a self-selecting set. You won't meet the ones whose education was buggered by parents who thought they could home-school but made a pigs' ear of it because they obviously wouldn't be at your university.
What I said is that I think many parents are capable of producing a similar result to a local school. Some are not capable of this, some are capable of better. Do you disagree with this?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I disagree with the "many". I think it's closer to "a few, and few fewer than those who think they can". I have a degree, for example, but I'm at a loss to know how I'd teach A level standard German.
[ 16. May 2014, 13:33: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The people you met at university are a self-selecting set. You won't meet the ones whose education was buggered by parents who thought they could home-school but made a pigs' ear of it because they obviously wouldn't be at your university.
Or the ones whose education was buggered by crap local schools.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib
Unfortunately the children are completely feral with no social skills and are likely to stay that way if they don't get the chance to learn social norms at school.
School is not the only place where social norms can be learned. At school some children whose tastes and interests are very unusual are at risk of being rejected, and even bullied, by their fellow-pupils.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
seekingsister: quote:
You'd be surprised what parents can achieve with their own children compared to a teacher who has to deal with 30+ children of varying abilities. Sure, not all parents are suited to home schooling but I think quite a lot of them could do as good a job as the local school.
It's not an either/or situation. Good schools recognise the importance of parental support and encourage parents to be involved in their children's education. Children who are encouraged to learn at home as well as at school have the best of both worlds. That's why some children start school ready to learn to read (in some cases, already reading) and others are still struggling with which way to turn the pages.
I would consider homeschooling my daughter only as a last resort, for both selfish and unselfish reasons.
The selfish reason is that I'd like to have some time to do my own thing and we can't afford an au pair. If she was homeschooled we'd be in each other's pockets (and probably at each other's throats) all the time, and our family income would be even less than it is now because I wouldn't be able to do another job.
The unselfish reason is that I don't want her education to be limited to things that I can teach her. She is a person in her own right; our interests and talents are similar but not identical.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Homeschooling should be a right. (I think it is a right under the Universal Declaration.)
I don't think this is right. Most famously, homeschooling is illegal in Germany. This has been challenged in the European Court of Human Rights, and the law was upheld.
This family tried to claim asylum in the US on the grounds that not allowing them to homeschool is religious persecution. Their claim was rejected.
(Actually I think there’s some huge political game-playing going on here, and not in the children’s best interest. If they really wanted freedom to homeschool, they didn’t need to move to the US; as German citizens they could have freely moved to any other EU state that allows it and would have been able to do as they liked. They could also have pursued the question in the courts, but that’s been done, and the ECHR has already ruled against.)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The people you met at university are a self-selecting set. You won't meet the ones whose education was buggered by parents who thought they could home-school but made a pigs' ear of it because they obviously wouldn't be at your university.
Or the ones whose education was buggered by crap local schools.
The solution to both is much the same - don't let crap local schools teach children, and don't let clueless parents do it either.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The solution to both is much the same - don't let crap local schools teach children, and don't let clueless parents do it either.
Exactly how would you go about preventing either situation?
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Observations.
If a school system is buggered? Who is at fault?
If a child is being educated by the state, are the parents forbidden to supplement this?
If your POV cannot stand exposure to other views, how solid is it?
If one, or two, people can do so much better at guiding, why do we not clamour for dictatorship?
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The solution to both is much the same - don't let crap local schools teach children, and don't let clueless parents do it either.
Exactly how would you go about preventing either situation?
Moo
We have inspection regimes. Don't you inspect your schools in the USA?
They're not perfect, by any means. It doesn't seem unreasonable though that before you're given responsibility to educate a child, which has lifelong consequences, you demonstrate some competence to do so.
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Karl: Liberal Backslider
In theory, I suppose a school should be better than a parent. But that won't necessarily be the case, because all children are different, and all adults have different skills, whether innate or taught. And sadly, not all schools are inevitably going to produce better results than the parents at home. The American education system seems to be fairly hit and miss, rather like the British one.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I disagree with the "many". I think it's closer to "a few, and few fewer than those who think they can". I have a degree, for example, but I'm at a loss to know how I'd teach A level standard German.
I guess it depends how literally one takes the term home school. I guess in the UK it is so rare that your view on it might be a bit inaccurate.
My university friends joined community groups or the local school for anything their parents could not offer - for example, violin lessons and sports. One also said they'd arrange field trips or special sessions with other home school families in the area. For example, one parent very good at science would both help the other parents and do group lessons now an again, as would the parent who was good at math, history, etc.
Maybe "non-traditional schooling" is more accurate. Certainly my friends did not spend all day trapped in a house only dealing with their own parents.
In the town where my school was, there was a commune - a traditional Catholic community - and they "home schooled" but it was essentially 20 children with several mothers doing the teaching and alternating houses. Again, not relying on one person only to manage everything.
I'm not saying it's better or that everyone should do it. However I don't accept that traditional state/public school is clearly superior to a group of dedicated parents.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I would suggest that for nearly all schools and nearly all parents the school is better. As I said before, how the hell would I teach German? Or Mandarin? Or English Lit (about which I know naff all)? Or History? (I got a grade D at O level, years ago).
Schools have different teachers for different subjects. They do this for a damned good reason. Few parents, IME, are polymaths.
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
We know a couple of homeschooling families. Parents are evangelical Christians in both cases. They also come across (at least on Facebook) as insufferably arrogant and superior with FB status updates which shriek, "Look at us home-educating our children - they do the same things your kids do but better, plus they don't have those icky 'worldly' influences to deal with, whereas you let your kids be exposed to such influences, which is basically imperilling their immortal souls and might as well be child abuse"....to which my thoughts end in "off".
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Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I disagree with the "many". I think it's closer to "a few, and few fewer than those who think they can". I have a degree, for example, but I'm at a loss to know how I'd teach A level standard German.
I guess it depends how literally one takes the term home school. I guess in the UK it is so rare that your view on it might be a bit inaccurate.
My university friends joined community groups or the local school for anything their parents could not offer - for example, violin lessons and sports. One also said they'd arrange field trips or special sessions with other home school families in the area. For example, one parent very good at science would both help the other parents and do group lessons now an again, as would the parent who was good at math, history, etc.
Maybe "non-traditional schooling" is more accurate. Certainly my friends did not spend all day trapped in a house only dealing with their own parents.
In the town where my school was, there was a commune - a traditional Catholic community - and they "home schooled" but it was essentially 20 children with several mothers doing the teaching and alternating houses. Again, not relying on one person only to manage everything.
I'm not saying it's better or that everyone should do it. However I don't accept that traditional state/public school is clearly superior to a group of dedicated parents.
As long as that group of dedicated parents is subjected to an inspection regime, that's fine. If not, then I ask what protection those children have from this group of parents being a bunch of berks. And then, in what sense is this "group of dedicated parents" not a school?
[ 16. May 2014, 14:06: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Just to throw another perspective on home schooling into the mix. I live with my family in North Africa where we work with a small development NGO. We are fortunate to live in the capital city where there are schooling options in both French and English available (at a price) as well as Arabic language schools. However for many of our colleagues working in other parts of the country the only option available is local schooling in Arabic. We know a few families who have successfully managed this but not many. It requires a high level of commitment from the parents to manage the challenges of language, alongside cultural differences in learning style (lots of rote learning, problem solving and independent thinking not really encouraged), very high pressure to achieve with shaming of those who don’t or are struggling and physical style discipline (which is supposed to be banned but is widely used).
In the light of this most choose to home school, usually using a curriculum from their home country. Some have clubbed together to form home school co-operatives, thereby sharing the teaching among the parents and using their different skills. But it is one of our biggest challenges when placing families in projects outside of the capital. How can they educate their children? And although many have done well academically by home schooling (these are a pretty motivated and able set of parents!) often when the children hit their teenage years the main problem is not the learning but the socialisation and peer relationships these youngsters need and the desire for a greater range of activities.
In the capital city there are also quite a lot of families who choose to home educate because they want a Christian curriculum, particularly among American families that we know. But I guess this probably also reflects the popularity of this as an option amongst such families in the USA as well.
And us? Well I think I could home school if I REALLY had to. But my experience of how quickly I run out of patience doing homework with our kids suggests that I’m not cut out to be a teacher and as an introvert I really value having everyone else out of the house for some of the day… Besides, I actually don’t want our kids to be in a purely Christian environment, I want them to learn to negotiate the reality of living life alongside all kinds of people who don’t necessarily believe or think the same as them. And I want them to experience the normalcy of ‘going to school’. So our kids are in French school, following the French curriculum in all its secular glory! At least they’ll be bilingual…
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
My university friends joined community groups or the local school for anything their parents could not offer - for example, violin lessons and sports. One also said they'd arrange field trips or special sessions with other home school families in the area. For example, one parent very good at science would both help the other parents and do group lessons now an again, as would the parent who was good at math, history, etc.
Maybe "non-traditional schooling" is more accurate. Certainly my friends did not spend all day trapped in a house only dealing with their own parents.
In the town where my school was, there was a commune - a traditional Catholic community - and they "home schooled" but it was essentially 20 children with several mothers doing the teaching and alternating houses. Again, not relying on one person only to manage everything.
Which just goes to illustrate that "home schooling" is a term covering a range of models. But, once you get a community where there are children from several families, beign taught by parents of different families (according to ability of the parents) then what it seems you have is a school - it's a school without a building, it's a school where the teachers do not (necessarily) have formal qualifications, it's a school with (probably) smaller class sizes. But, it's a school nonetheless.
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Schools have different teachers for different subjects. They do this for a damned good reason. Few parents, IME, are polymaths.
I will throw in this, most people suck at teaching. It is a skill that goes well beyond knowing a subject oneself. At least with a school system, there is a standard. Yes, that standard may have flaws. Once again I ask, whose fault is that?
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I would suggest that for nearly all schools and nearly all parents the school is better.
This may be true, but since the vast majority of children in the West are taught in schools, I don't think homeschooling represents a significant problem. The more urgent problem involves disadvantaged children who've attended state schools all their lives yet have failed to achieve the appropriate skills and qualifications to help them progress in life.
I have a PGCE and have taught as a supply teacher in state schools. Most of these schools have been okay, but it's often struck me that these places aren't suitable for everyone.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think it is a question if where the responsibility of educating our children primarily lies: the parents or the state? I would argue the parents.
In the UK, it's the responsibility of parents to ensure their children receive a full time education from age 5 to 16. The majority of parents exercise this responsibility by enrolling their children in a school. But, you can home school if yuo wish. In which case, the local authority has a responsibility to confirm that your children are receiving a suitable education, and they can provide assistance to home schooling. If they are not satisfied with the education you are providing they can enforce a school attendance order.
As far as I'm concerned that's a reasonable position. The parents have the responsibility, but the local government provides a safety net to catch the children of parents who fail that responsibility.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
From those I know who home school I think an important aspect is the curriculum that you use. There seem to be a good number of these that in effect mean that the parent is supervising the learning from the materials provided rather than actually doing the teaching as such. The lessons are all set out with the material to be learned. I know one family used a program where the lessons were on DVD. In some cases the work is submitted by post or internet to be marked by tutors associated with the program. I don't know whether people would count this as home schooling in the same way or more as a form of 'distance learning'? This would seem to reduce the problem of parents not having the knowledge of particular subjects to teach them.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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