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Thread: Kerygmania: Finding a bible, picky picky picky
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
We've had threads asking which translation to use. Here's a case where in essence I want a particular edition, which I don't even know if it exists.
In general -- when you want certain features in a Bible, where do you look? For example, suppose you have a preference in translation, maps, pictures, binding, size. Have you had a particular search, and what path did you take to success (or not)?
My particular search: Looking for RSV for daily office reading, not too fat, no in-line interpretive section headings. Running page heads are fine. I'd be happy to have the apocrypha but it's not essential. If the apocrypha is in, it can either be Protestantly separate or Catholic Orthodoxly in-line. I've found the Oxford University Press RSV With Apocrypha but it's big and fat and laden with stuff I don't need, especially as I already have the OUP NRSV w/ Ap.
Where to look?
[ 02. July 2015, 23:36: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
When I last did that sort of complex buy, I went to CLC and got them to let me look through their Bible catalogs. I was looking for a RV that was leather bound.
However look on Amazon for RSV, there is for instance this compact one. However if you want details I think I would still go to your local Christian Bookstore and look at the catalogs
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
Your local Bible Society might help you in that department.
I have an old RSV to spare that might be to your specifications. It's fairly slim, around 1.5" thick. It's a regular-sized volume, but no Apocrypha. We got it from clearance sales in the local Christian bookshops.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
The 2nd Edition Catholic RSV published by the Ignatius Press sounds as if it would be suitable.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
What's CLC?
What's my local Bible Society? (I mean, how do I find my "local" one as opposed to just online or something)?
I love the "looking through catalogs idea at local bookstore" idea. This particular RSV hunt seems to be a search process where looking online doesn't make me very happy because I can't get enough of a birdseye view online to feel I've scoped out the possibilities thoroughly and matched them up against each other.
Saint Hedrin, a very kind offer of your spare RSV. Hoping to find one from closer to spare postage from Phillipines to Starlight. May need to take you up on it all the same. I am fascinated by the variety of ideas of Where To Search already from two posts!
[ETA: four posts! (cross-posted with Thurible and Brian M.]
[ 19. May 2009, 15:17: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Loveheart
Blue-scarved menace
# 12249
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Posted
CLC is a chain of Christian bookshops. Hope you find what you want!
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi
Posts: 3638 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
I forgot to add that some of the RSV Bibles we have were rescued from second-hand booksellers; some of the Bibles still have their bookplates or have been stamped with their church of origin.
They're all pew-sized and Apocrypha-free, but I'm keeping on the lookout for one that does have the Apocrypha.
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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rosamundi
Ship's lacemaker
# 2495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loveheart:
CLC is a chain of Christian bookshops. Hope you find what you want!
Autenrieth Road is in the US. I don't think Christian Literature Crusade have made it over the pond.
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Website.
Ship of Fools flickr group
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
here
This is the edition I'm familiar with (of the second edition). Personally, I'm quite happy with my Common Edition RSV but I'd like to get a 2nd edition at some point.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
here
This is the edition I'm familiar with (of the second edition). Personally, I'm quite happy with my Common Edition RSV but I'd like to get a 2nd edition at some point.
Thurible
The second edition takes out the thees and thous, if you care to avoid such things. The edition I link above is the original RSV-CE in a nice thumb-indexed edition.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
The second edition takes out the thees and thous, if you care to avoid such things.
That's good. Irrespective of your attitude to 16th-century English, the RSV was theologically suspect because it used 'thou - thee' for God and 'you' for individual human beings.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
The second edition takes out the thees and thous, if you care to avoid such things.
That's good. Irrespective of your attitude to 16th-century English, the RSV was theologically suspect because it used 'thou - thee' for God and 'you' for individual human beings.
Setting God apart from individual human beings is theologically suspect? Good to know.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
quote:
Originally posted by Loveheart:
CLC is a chain of Christian bookshops. Hope you find what you want!
Autenrieth Road is in the US. I don't think Christian Literature Crusade have made it over the pond.
It sure has
But I wouldn't recommend it, it is my nearest.
Jengie
[ 19. May 2009, 19:38: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Looks like you could call them here to get some ideas.
An American Bible Society Ministry
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Then again, you could always take a little road trip to Saint John and pick one up here.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
The second edition takes out the thees and thous, if you care to avoid such things.
That's good. Irrespective of your attitude to 16th-century English, the RSV was theologically suspect because it used 'thou - thee' for God and 'you' for individual human beings.
Setting God apart from individual human beings is theologically suspect? Good to know.
In this matter, yes. It has the effect of suggesting that the 'familiar' form of address is really the 'formal, respectful one. It reverses the reasoning for addressing God as 'thou' in the first place: that we could address him as our loving Father rather than a distant tyrant.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
I don't understand - surely it emphasized that the relationship with God has a greater intimacy than the relationship with other people can ever have?
'frin
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
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cg
Shipmate
# 14332
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
This is the edition I'm familiar with (of the second edition). Personally, I'm quite happy with my Common Edition RSV but I'd like to get a 2nd edition at some point.
I looked at that but discarded it when I found a misprint on the second pair of pages I opened: Eiphaz for Eliphaz in the heading of Job 15. I didn't trust it not to have more elsewhere. Also I didn't like the excess capitalization of the headings and thought the font used for them a poor match for the body text.
I ended up getting a secondhand copy of the Revised English Bible with Apocrypha, as used in the monastic community I visit.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Thank you for all the great suggestions!
Exploring minutia of editions, it appears that what I want is the 2nd edition, with Deuterocanonical books if I can find them but OK if not. But not the Catholic Edition.
It turns out that I also own a 1st edition (I think) RSV, but it's even frailer than my 2nd edition confirmation bible. Ai yi yi.
A place that occurred to me, that no-one has suggested yet is e-bay.
[ETCorrect: confirmation & communion are not the same thing, even if they were closely linked way back when I was confirmed.]
[ 20. May 2009, 21:03: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
it appears that what I want is the 2nd edition, with Deuterocanonical books if I can find them but OK if not. But not the Catholic Edition.
I'm not sure such a thing exists. The only RSV 2nd ed. with which I am familiar is the 2nd ed. of the RSV-CE published by Ignatius. The RSV itself has gone through a number of revisions since it was first published, but as far as I know the only in-print edition that is not explicitly a Catholic Edition is the big Oxford UP annotated study bible. If you know differently, please do link us!
There is also the ESV with Apocrypha.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Irrespective of your attitude to 16th-century English, the RSV was theologically suspect because it used 'thou - thee' for God and 'you' for individual human beings.
I don't think this is a theological issue. When the AV was translated, English had complicated rules and conventions about when and how one used the 2nd person singular, as do most other languages in Western Europe to this day. The RSV replicated them because that's what people in the 1950s still expected the Bible to sound like. However, because people didn't still use 'thou' in any forms of standard English, and the dialects that did (or do) still use it often have different rules and conventions on its use, those responsible for producing the RSV may have got the usage wrong in some places.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Irrespective of your attitude to 16th-century English, the RSV was theologically suspect because it used 'thou - thee' for God and 'you' for individual human beings.
I don't think this is a theological issue. When the AV was translated, English had complicated rules and conventions about when and how one used the 2nd person singular, as do most other languages in Western Europe to this day. The RSV replicated them because that's what people in the 1950s still expected the Bible to sound like. However, because people didn't still use 'thou' in any forms of standard English, and the dialects that did (or do) still use it often have different rules and conventions on its use, those responsible for producing the RSV may have got the usage wrong in some places.
Were those different from the current conventions in those other languages, that use either the 2nd person plural or 3rd person singular to address superiors, or strangers, while keeping the 2nd person singular for intimate friends and family members?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Were those different from the current conventions in those other languages, that use either the 2nd person plural or 3rd person singular to address superiors, or strangers, while keeping the 2nd person singular for intimate friends and family members?
I'd like share something from my background. Generally, in Mexican Spanish one uses 'usted' for superiors or strangers, and 'tu' for intimate friends and family members. But that's not always a hard & fast rule in the sense that you sometimes use 'usted' for family members if they are elders. I always used 'usted' for my parents and grandparents because that's what was expected and I know mine wasn't the only family. Nowadays I hear kids use 'tu' with their parents ( I blame T.V.) but even now I (and others) use 'usted' with older relatives and if I use 'tu' with my dad I get in trouble. So it's completely possible that at different times and places people used formal language with close family members.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Were those different from the current conventions in those other languages, that use either the 2nd person plural or 3rd person singular to address superiors, or strangers, while keeping the 2nd person singular for intimate friends and family members?
I'd like share something from my background. Generally, in Mexican Spanish one uses 'usted' for superiors or strangers, and 'tu' for intimate friends and family members. But that's not always a hard & fast rule in the sense that you sometimes use 'usted' for family members if they are elders. I always used 'usted' for my parents and grandparents because that's what was expected and I know mine wasn't the only family. Nowadays I hear kids use 'tu' with their parents ( I blame T.V.) but even now I (and others) use 'usted' with older relatives and if I use 'tu' with my dad I get in trouble. So it's completely possible that at different times and places people used formal language with close family members.
That's really what I'm getting at. If 16th-century English worked in the same way, it would have been a really radical step to address God as 'thou'. AFAIK Yorkshire dialect works like that: a father will address his children as 'thou' (or 'tha') but expect to be addressed as 'you'. I think. Though brought up in Yorkshire we didn't speak dialect.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
That's an interesting point. I really don't know how radical 'thou' would have necessarily been. I don't think that because I use 'usted' with my dad it implies necessarily that I see him as a distant tyrant, rather a certain level of respect. Not that 'thou' doesn't imply a shift in relationship either, but maybe not as radical as one would think necessarily. Or not quite in the same direction. *shrugs*
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
Actually, AR, you may wish to consider the ESV, if what you want is a Bible based on the RSV with the thees and thous taken out. It comes in many formats and sizes. That said, I read a few critiques of the ESV that suggest that its fairly conservative evangelical editors might have been heavy-handed in translating language to emphasize a male-only clergy, so if that is a concern you may wish to research this matter.
Posts: 1287 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Sep 2006
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Obviously, Bibles get used in worship, but this seems to be more general. I think it would play better in Keryg.
Hart, Eccles host
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by frin:
I don't understand - surely it emphasized that the relationship with God has a greater intimacy than the relationship with other people can ever have?
Actually, I think that it suggests that one needs a more formal relationship with God.
The main problem with the use of thee's and thou's only in regard to addressing God is that it is imposing a distinction that it not present in the original Hebrew or Greek, nor is it one that we use in modern English.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Is the RSV 2nd edition without Apocrypha still published, I wonder?
Recently, not having Wisdom when it showed up in the lectionary, I happily read the second half of Daniel instead. (A profound work, with at least one incredibly beautiful prayer that is not read elsewhere officially in the lectionary, more's the pity.) So staying in a nil-Deuterocanonical state wouldn't be bad, and I have at least one Bible with Deuterocanon if I decide I really want the occasional reading.
The search for a particular Bible edition is a curious beast. For study, sure, I have a whole heap. For devotional reading, I want to have just one for a while and sink into that, not worrying about the language or translation biases (erm, choices). And then look what happens when your beloved translation-of-choice becomes no more, and of course, given the life of Bibles, this will generally only happen loooooooooong after it has gone out of print.
(Oh no, I've been on the Ship so long I've picked up you-allses "erm" instead of a good USian "umm".)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Oh wait, look, there's RSV Common Bible, and Expanded Edition, both from a couple of years after I was confirmed. Those would be good too. Wikipedia has a page with some info on the plethora of RSV editions. Cool.
Brian M, I think the ESV isn't quite what I want; I've gotten quite fond of my RSV and the trust I feel in it (rightly or wrongly).
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselm:
quote:
Originally posted by frin:
I don't understand - surely it emphasized that the relationship with God has a greater intimacy than the relationship with other people can ever have?
Actually, I think that it suggests that one needs a more formal relationship with God.
The main problem with the use of thee's and thou's only in regard to addressing God is that it is imposing a distinction that it not present in the original Hebrew or Greek, nor is it one that we use in modern English.
Originally addressing God by thee or thou did suggest a special intimacy, but English, as it has developed, left that sense behind when we stopped using thee and thou in everyday speech. So yes, originally it did confer a sense of special intimacy as well as paradox (you'd address God as you would address a servant! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ). Now since we would only use the words in relationship to God, it sounds formal and stilted, not intimate at all without making a concious effort to think like an Elizabethan.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I've realized there's a list of the Protestant/Catholic differences in RSV versions so with that I'm happy to get a Catholic Edition. I realize that's back from mid-60s, but it pleases me enough. I'll also be frequenting the Bible section of 2nd hand bookstores, just to see what I find. Thank you all for all your help.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Extol
Shipmate
# 11865
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Is the RSV 2nd edition without Apocrypha still published, I wonder?
Again, the Second Edition you refer to IS the Second Edition of the RSV-Catholic Edition. So, yes, it will include the Apoc/Deut books found in any Catholic Bible.
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
OK, now I'm completely confused.
My understanding is that there was a 2nd edition in the Protestant strand, and a different 2nd edition in the Catholic strand.
My confirmation RSV bible was published in early-mid seventies, and says Second Edition. That would correspond I think to the "New Testament, Second Edition (1971)" listed at Wikipedia's page on the Revised Standard Version. That's the edition I was wondering if it is still published.
Then on looking at the Wikipedia page I discovered there's a later edition called the Common Bible, which I assumed would have the Protestant translation choices in OT and NT. The Deuterocanonical books would have the Catholic choices, that being the only option, which is fine with me. That edition looked exactly perfect, having as many books as possible.
Wikipedia says there's a "Second Catholic Edition (2006)". If I do get a Catholic Edition, then it makes sense that I would look for the Second Edition of it, but that's different AIUI from the Second Edition that was published in 1971.
It's not that I mind thees and thous so much, it's just that I find myself comfortable with my confirmation bible, and with a translation more on the formal equivalence side rather than dynamic equivalence side. Having become comfortable with it, my picky side really wants it, or something in the same RSV stream.
I've started following up the references in the Wikipedia, to learn more. I also seem to have accidently clicked on the Wikipedia Greek New Testament page, which has a fascinating table of Influences which suggests to me that I ought to be considering the NAS, for closeness to the Nestle-Aland Greek. Then I ought also to find out what the heck "The Comprehensive New Testament" is that Wikipedia cites as its source for this table.
And in further resources, oh look, the two libraries near me have lots and lots of books and I can probably find various editions to look at them first-hand before buying, plus the Wikipedia-suggested "See Also" books tracing translation history.
[ 29. May 2009, 18:13: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I have a copy of the Common Bible circa 1973. It has protestant order but with Apocrypha/Deutrocanonical books including other apocrypha which are not in the Roman cannon but are in the Greek cannon although it does not seem to have Psalm 151, 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees. No I don't know why.
Does that help. You should be able to find versions of the Common Bible around in second hand book shops. There seems five available on Abebooks at present.
Sorry mine is not for sale (it has huge sentimental value being my first bible) and is falling to pieces anyway.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
... I read a few critiques of the ESV that suggest that its fairly conservative evangelical editors might have been heavy-handed in translating language to emphasize a male-only clergy...
Its better than NIV for that. There are places where the original is clearly neutral but NIV uses masculine language. ESV tends to be more literal ad gender-neutral.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
So to broaden this from my own picky Bible search, have others had a Bible search where you're looking for just that right Bible, and not the first of 1000's of NIV variants that leaps off the shelf (which is the easy buy at all the bookstores I've been in recently that have Bibles)? What was it, and how did it turn out? What did you have to do to find it?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
... I read a few critiques of the ESV that suggest that its fairly conservative evangelical editors might have been heavy-handed in translating language to emphasize a male-only clergy...
Its better than NIV for that. There are places where the original is clearly neutral but NIV uses masculine language. ESV tends to be more literal ad gender-neutral.
There is also one place (I forget where -- one of the Pauline epistles) where the word translated "tradition" when it's negative is used -- same word -- but since the context is positive it's translated "teachings". No evo spin there, eh. Tradition=bad. Teachings=good.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
There is a Limbo thread on bias in the NIV translation.
It's well worth reading.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
So to broaden this from my own picky Bible search, have others had a Bible search where you're looking for just that right Bible, and not the first of 1000's of NIV variants that leaps off the shelf (which is the easy buy at all the bookstores I've been in recently that have Bibles)? What was it, and how did it turn out? What did you have to do to find it?
I'm always looking for Bibles, and how I go about it is pretty arbitrary. I respond to different things in different Bibles, and am basically just looking for a strong connection to the Bible. A few of my responses have been:
1. The JPS Study Bible, which is a new translation of the Tanakh with extensive scholarly notes from a Jewish perspective. Both translation and notes are wonderful. I appreciate getting out of the box of Christian preconceptions when approaching the Hebrew Testament, and this is my go-to text for that.
2. The Artscroll Tanakh. I am less enamored with this treanslation, but like this book for a couple of points. First, it includes the Hebrew text, which keeps my desire to learn to read Hebrew alive. And second, the notes are rooted in the Talmud. The JPS Bible is much more secular-scholarly, while this book glories in the rabbinical tradition.
I have a few study Bibles:
3. The Harper Collins Study Bible is my go-to study Bible that includes the New Testament and Apocrypha. I find the articles and notes wonderful examples of rigoruous scholarship. The translation is NRSV, which I find perfectly acceptable for close reading, although I would prefer that they abandoned their insistence on gender-neutral language. This sort of thing belongs in the footnotes rather than the text to my mind.
4. The Oxford Annotated NRSV. I got this because it used to be what the Disciple course recommended people use. I had used the old Oxford Annotated RSV, which was wonderful. I honestly find this version inferior to the Harper Collins Study Bible I mentioned above, though.
5. The New Interpreter's Study Bible. This is the version that Disciple now recommends. In all honesty, I find it the weakest of the three NRSV study Bibles listed. It is targeted for pastoral stuff. If I were preparing sermons, I'm sure I would like their notes better than I do. As a study Bible, it just seems rather lame.
6. The Reformation Study Bible (ESV). I got this for the ESV translation, which is quite attractive for close reading. I figured I might as well get some Sproul while I was at it, but I honestly don't have a lot of patience for these preachy notes and commentary. The translation is well worth having, though. If you can stand Evangelical preachiness more tha Reformed preachiness, there is a similar (and more colorful) ESV called the ESV Study Bible fom that perspective. What I have not found is an ESV with scholarly notes instead of apologetics.
7. The Learning Bible (CEV). I got this because I was looking for a Bible to give our Sunday School kids. The CEV is the American Bible Society's replacement for the TIV, which was a replacement for the Good News Bible. Each new translation has been a step forward, and the CEV is not awful. It is readable by late grade school children with decent reading skills, and the notes and articles are excellent for all ages. It is colorful and engaging. The kids seem to genuinely like it. There is a woodenness to the translation language that disappoints, but it is not riddled with errors.
8. Holman Illustrated Study Bible. I got this when looking for the Sunday School presentation Bible. I like the translation better than the CEV. But the notes are unremittingly apologist in a 19th century Baptist kind of way. I just couldn't bring myself to foist that off on the kids. And it is a bit harder to read than the CEV, so I was somewhat concerned that the greater grace of the language (and the less dynamic equivalence of the translation) would be lost, at the expense of subjecting them to notes and commentary that I find dishonest.
9. The NLT Study Bible. I got this for the New Living Translation. This translation is very readable, and makes a good choice if you are reading aloud. It is very easy to follow the text that way and the translation strikes me as reasonably faithful for a dynamic equivalence text. The notes are pretty much what you'd expect from Tyndale.
10. NIV Study Bible. Like all right-thinking Christians, I hate the NIV. But the people who did the translation are very good scholars (perhaps therefore more accountable for their invasive translation). Anyway, the notes are somewhere between serious scholarship and apologetics. By and large, they are worth having available, though. When I am reading aloud, I will sometimes use the NIV. It is easy to understand aloud, and if carefully vetted beforehand for willful bias, it can be a reasonable choice.
11. The New Jerusalem Bible. I really like this translation with one small kvetch -- they insist on using the tetragrammaton while telling you to read it as "The Lord." I much prefer the standard of printing "the Lord" in small caps wherever the original had the tetragrammaton. It's just plain easier to read and loses none of the information. Other than that small thing, I think this is very close to a perfect translation -- quite literal, but with a grace of expression that rivals the best of the dynamic equivalence translations. What I don't like about it is that it doesn't come in a decent study Bible. This one is about as good as they come now (I don't have this version -- the version I have seems to be out of print, but was not much better on the study notes.) The footnotes are fine as far as they go, but there aren't good articles of introduction.
12. One of my very favorite Bibles is The Net Bible. Although it is available as a (quite expensive) book, I use it on my computer. As software, it is available free on-line or in a version lacking notes or very inexpensively in a version with full notes that is supported by e-sword. The translation is from the Dallas Theological Seminary, but don't panic. It is actually a sheer delight and objective enough to have drawn a lot of criticism from folks who expected a more biased translation from them. The translator's notes are really informative and the rendition is elegant.
All this is, as you can see, very subjective. But perhaps it will be of some use.
--Tom Clune
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
So to broaden this from my own picky Bible search, have others had a Bible search where you're looking for just that right Bible, and not the first of 1000's of NIV variants that leaps off the shelf (which is the easy buy at all the bookstores I've been in recently that have Bibles)? What was it, and how did it turn out? What did you have to do to find it?
I'm always looking for Bibles, and how I go about it is pretty arbitrary. I respond to different things in different Bibles, and am basically just looking for a strong connection to the Bible. A few of my responses have been:
1. The JPS Study Bible, which is a new translation of the Tanakh with extensive scholarly notes from a Jewish perspective. Both translation and notes are wonderful. I appreciate getting out of the box of Christian preconceptions when approaching the Hebrew Testament, and this is my go-to text for that.
2. The Artscroll Tanakh. I am less enamored with this treanslation, but like this book for a couple of points. First, it includes the Hebrew text, which keeps my desire to learn to read Hebrew alive. And second, the notes are rooted in the Talmud. The JPS Bible is much more secular-scholarly, while this book glories in the rabbinical tradition.
I have a few study Bibles:
3. The Harper Collins Study Bible is my go-to study Bible that includes the New Testament and Apocrypha. I find the articles and notes wonderful examples of rigoruous scholarship. The translation is NRSV, which I find perfectly acceptable for close reading, although I would prefer that they abandoned their insistence on gender-neutral language. This sort of thing belongs in the footnotes rather than the text to my mind.
4. The Oxford Annotated NRSV. I got this because it used to be what the Disciple course recommended people use. I had used the old Oxford Annotated RSV, which was wonderful. I honestly find this version inferior to the Harper Collins Study Bible I mentioned above, though.
5. The New Interpreter's Study Bible. This is the version that Disciple now recommends. In all honesty, I find it the weakest of the three NRSV study Bibles listed. It is targeted for pastoral stuff. If I were preparing sermons, I'm sure I would like their notes better than I do. As a study Bible, it just seems rather lame.
6. The Reformation Study Bible (ESV). I got this for the ESV translation, which is quite attractive for close reading. I figured I might as well get some Sproul while I was at it, but I honestly don't have a lot of patience for these preachy notes and commentary. The translation is well worth having, though. If you can stand Evangelical preachiness more tha Reformed preachiness, there is a similar (and more colorful) ESV called the ESV Study Bible fom that perspective. What I have not found is an ESV with scholarly notes instead of apologetics.
7. The Learning Bible (CEV). I got this because I was looking for a Bible to give our Sunday School kids. The CEV is the American Bible Society's replacement for the TIV, which was a replacement for the Good News Bible. Each new translation has been a step forward, and the CEV is not awful. It is readable by late grade school children with decent reading skills, and the notes and articles are excellent for all ages. It is colorful and engaging. The kids seem to genuinely like it. There is a woodenness to the translation language that disappoints, but it is not riddled with errors.
8. Holman Illustrated Study Bible. I got this when looking for the Sunday School presentation Bible. I like the translation better than the CEV. But the notes are unremittingly apologist in a 19th century Baptist kind of way. I just couldn't bring myself to foist that off on the kids. And it is a bit harder to read than the CEV, so I was somewhat concerned that the greater grace of the language (and the less dynamic equivalence of the translation) would be lost, at the expense of subjecting them to notes and commentary that I find dishonest.
9. The NLT Study Bible. I got this for the New Living Translation. This translation is very readable, and makes a good choice if you are reading aloud. It is very easy to follow the text that way and the translation strikes me as reasonably faithful for a dynamic equivalence text. The notes are pretty much what you'd expect from Tyndale.
10. NIV Study Bible. Like all right-thinking Christians, I hate the NIV. But the people who did the translation are very good scholars (perhaps therefore more accountable for their invasive translation). Anyway, the notes are somewhere between serious scholarship and apologetics. By and large, they are worth having available, though. When I am reading aloud, I will sometimes use the NIV. It is easy to understand aloud, and if carefully vetted beforehand for willful bias, it can be a reasonable choice.
11. The New Jerusalem Bible. ... What I don't like about it is that it doesn't come in a decent study Bible. This one is about as good as they come now (I don't have this version -- the version I have seems to be out of print, but was not much better on the study notes.) The footnotes are fine as far as they go, but there aren't good articles of introduction.
The New Jerusalem Bible: Study Edition
Any use?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Sorry, as you probably guessed, I didn't mean to quote the whole post!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
I'm not familiar with that edition. It doesn't seem to be available in the US, although it looks like something I'd like to take a look at. So I just don't know if it would be a good study Bible. Sorry.
--Tom Clune
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Don't worry, I have no cart in the race. I have the NJB Study Edition and used it happily as such, though I tend to prefer the RSV. I thought it wasn't available in the States either but it does seem to be, though you can't browse that particular edition.
Apparently, it's a compact version of the Standard Edition.
The customer reviews seem to be quite in depth.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Don't worry, I have no cart in the race. I have the NJB Study Edition and used it happily as such, though I tend to prefer the RSV. I thought it wasn't available in the States either but it does seem to be, though you can't browse that particular edition.
Apparently, it's a compact version of the Standard Edition.
The customer reviews seem to be quite in depth.
Thurible
Just one word of warning: the text linked to in your post as the "standard edition" has no notes whatsoever. I had that version before I got my current one (it has no designation on it at all as to what edition it is -- it's just called "The Jerusalem Bible" and was published by Doubleday.) The student's version may be an abbreviated form of mine -- I seem to recall such a thing from a few years back, but I'm not sure. Some of the reviewers on the standard edition clearly had a different version than the standard editon, and thought that they were reviewing the same edition that they owned but were not. You really need to see the specific version of the NJB to avoid this kind of mistake. They do a lousy job labelling their versions. FWIW.
--Tom Clune
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Hah! The NJB that I have is still in print after all.
Here it is.
--Tom Clune
[ 03. June 2009, 20:23: Message edited by: tclune ]
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Sorry to keep flogging this horse, but I found out that the version of the NJB that is an abridged version of mine is the Pocket Edition, not the Study Edition. FWIW
--Tom Clune
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Before we go any further the NJB and the JB are different translations though related in the way the NRSV is to RSV or the REB to NEB.
I have a copy of the Jerusalem Bible Standard edition and a copy of the New Jerusalme Bible pocket edition.
Jerusalem Bible standard edition was first published in 1966
New Jerusalem Bible was first published in 1989
Looking at 1 Corinthians 13:1 in both versions
Jerusalem Bible
quote:
If I have all the eloquence of men or of angels, but speak without love I am simply a gong booming or a cymbal crashing
New Jerusalem Bible
quote:
Though I command languages both human and angelic - if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing
Just to note that verse was chosen as something well known not as an example but I doubt I could get a clearer verse if I spent days on it.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Before we go any further the NJB and the JB are different translations though related in the way the NRSV is to RSV or the REB to NEB.
Yes, when I wrote the title as "The Jerusalem Bible" it was a typo -- the version, as shown in the link, is the New Jerusalem Bible. Most folks feel that the Jerusalem Bible is less successful a translation than the New Jerusalem Bible -- all this was originally translated into French, and the Jerusalem Bible was the first re-translation into English. Both in terms of scholarship (it was done in the mid-60s if memory serves, and there was a lot of Biblical scholarship done after that) and in terms of careful crafting of the Engish, the New Jerusalem Bible is generally deemed to be the preferable translation. As they say, quality is job 1.1.
Of course, most scholars choose the NRSV over the RSV, and AR at least seems to prefer the RSV. So, as in all such things, YMMV.
--Tom Clune
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