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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: TEC suspended (... maybe?)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Little information is coming out of the Primates meeting in Canterbury Cathedral, but some reports are suggesting that the Episcopal Church has been suspended from the Anglican Communion.
Elsewhere the Archbishop of Uganda left the meeting saying "I have left the meeting in Canterbury, but I want to make it clear that we are not leaving the Anglican Communion. Together with our fellow GAFCON Provinces and others in the Global South, we are the Anglican Communion; the future is bright."
I'd advise taking these reports with a grain of salt, but anyone have any thoughts on any of this?
[ 16. May 2016, 08:16: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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arse
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
These resolutions only have what moral weight they're attributed. Of course, given the current impairment in relationships, it's impossible for any province to participate "fully" in the "life of the communion" (such as it now is). But the primates can't take away the "vote" from a given province where they have one. But the Archbishops cannot "discipline the American church" and the primates most certainly cannot "direct" them to do so.
I think it's clear that we are going to see a return, for a season, to the original model of the "Anglican Communion": a family of churches with a shared cultural and polity background but no juridical connection, and varying degrees of mutual recognition.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So they're suspended for 3 years?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Pseudonym
Apprentice
# 16879
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Posted
"5. In keeping with the consistent position of previous Primates’ meetings such unilateral actions on a matter of doctrine without Catholic unity is considered by many of us as a departure from the mutual accountability and interdependence implied through being in relationship with each other in the Anglican Communion."
Contrasted with
"34. Every particular or national Church hath authority to ordain, change, and abolish, ceremonies or rites of the Church ordained only by man's authority, so that all things be done to edifying."
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Well it appears that the EC is being asked nicely to withdraw itself from the representing the communion (although when does it actually do that?) for that period. I've been told that the meeting doesn't actually have the authority to remove a member.
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arse
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
This is very serious news, and having read it, it's making me think very hard about my own position in relation to the Anglican Church.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
This is very serious news, and having read it, it's making me think very hard about my own position in relation to the Anglican Church.
I've been thinking for a while that one of the pressures on Justin Welby is that the divisions within the global Communion are starkly reflected within the church in England - so there is some pressure to keep the Communion together in order to keep things together in England.
Ironically therefore any succour given to anyone is likely to lead to a walk-out in one direction or the other, if not in the Communion then in a wing of the Church in England.
Beginning of the end, maybe?
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arse
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Possibly. I think you're right about the worldwide divisions existing on a more micro scale within the Church of England; if this 'core' also splits, then the resultant denominational bodies could call themselves 'Episcopal' but not sure they would be able to use the word 'Anglican' in their title with a straight face.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudonym:
"5. In keeping with the consistent position of previous Primates’ meetings such unilateral actions on a matter of doctrine without Catholic unity is considered by many of us as a departure from the mutual accountability and interdependence implied through being in relationship with each other in the Anglican Communion."
Contrasted with
"34. Every particular or national Church hath authority to ordain, change, and abolish, ceremonies or rites of the Church ordained only by man's authority, so that all things be done to edifying."
My emphasis
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Meaning?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Possibly. I think you're right about the worldwide divisions existing on a more micro scale within the Church of England; if this 'core' also splits, then the resultant denominational bodies could call themselves 'Episcopal' but not sure they would be able to use the word 'Anglican' in their title with a straight face.
That's never stopped anyone who split before.
I think we're heading for a situation where England has a number of Anglican churches. I can think of a few who would welcome the opportunity to lose some expensive buildings and become more congregational (I know, I know, but there really are some Anglicans who don't give a toss about bishops).
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arse
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Meaning?
Presumably, that within Anglicanism, you can unilaterally change things that aren't doctrine on a national level, but you can't change doctrine.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
Given the conservative felt able to stay at the negotiating table for so long, the outcome was never going to be any good. Call me cynical, but not surprised.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Meaning?
Presumably, that within Anglicanism, you can unilaterally change things that aren't doctrine on a national level, but you can't change doctrine.
It's irrelevant anyway, because the 39 articles are not binding on all Anglican provinces. The SEC dropped them like a hot rock as soon as it was legally permitted.
On the wider topic I'm thoroughly disgusted by the statement from Primates 2016. I'm disappointed that both the American and Scottish primates felt able to sign up to it.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The Archbishop of Canterbury and the other primates can keep the PB and bishops of TEC from participating in Lambeth and the Primates Meeting. The Anglican Consultative Council can keep the TEC representatives from participating as well. I'm not sure what the endgame is here. TEC isn't going repent. The suspension of TEC will not likely deter other provinces from following the same path of TEC.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
This is very serious news, and having read it, it's making me think very hard about my own position in relation to the Anglican Church.
I've been thinking for a while that one of the pressures on Justin Welby is that the divisions within the global Communion are starkly reflected within the church in England - so there is some pressure to keep the Communion together in order to keep things together in England.
Ironically therefore any succour given to anyone is likely to lead to a walk-out in one direction or the other, if not in the Communion then in a wing of the Church in England.
Beginning of the end, maybe?
For TEC I'm afraid so. I can't see TEC retreating from its positions on ssm and I can't see the the other churches accepting them soooo...
Then there's the little matter of filthy lucre. TEC provides about 30% of the money spent by the Communion. At least that was the amount bandied about a few years ago. I can't see us cutting off charitable ministries to the poor (if the other members of the Communion will still accept them- being provided by dirty hands with tainted money and all), but obviously other expenses for meetings and events will have to be found from other sources if TEC gets the final boot.
What shape the Anglican Communion will settle into, I don't know.
I'm hoping that I'll actually get to speak with one of the primates in a few weeks. Maybe he'll give his take on it all.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Any chance of sending missionaries to found a TEC-in-England?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Pseudonym
Apprentice
# 16879
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Pseudonym:
"5. In keeping with the consistent position of previous Primates’ meetings such unilateral actions on a matter of doctrine without Catholic unity is considered by many of us as a departure from the mutual accountability and interdependence implied through being in relationship with each other in the Anglican Communion."
Contrasted with
"34. Every particular or national Church hath authority to ordain, change, and abolish, ceremonies or rites of the Church ordained only by man's authority, so that all things be done to edifying."
My emphasis
"25. Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God."
My emphasis.
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
It's irrelevant anyway, because the 39 articles are not binding on all Anglican provinces. The SEC dropped them like a hot rock as soon as it was legally permitted.
The 39 Articles are explicitly named in GAFCON's Jerusalem Statement (2008) as a standard of doctrine to which they intend to remain faithful.
My point is that this 'demotion' is an irrational action, and not consonant with GAFCON's own commitments.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
It's always been a problem with the Church of England that if you don't want to be a part of it any more, you just stop going - and even then the buggers won't accept you've gone. They don't even allow you a good flounce.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Elsewhere, Tobias Haller points out: Re the proposal to suspend TEC from participation in the life of the Anglican Communion: The ACC has its own constitution -- in fact, it is the only legally constituted "instrument" of the whole Communion. As far as I know, the Primates have no authority to remove the representatives of TEC who were elected to that body, short of an action by that body itself through amending the Schedule of Membership. The earlier voluntary withdrawal from participation in the ACC was just that. The Primates Meeting (if this is in fact what it has become, contrary to the ABC's characterization) has no authority to amend the structure and membership of the ACC. In this regard their action is ultra vires.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
This is very serious news, and having read it, it's making me think very hard about my own position in relation to the Anglican Church.
Yah bollocks. Serious shmerious. Who really gives a flying wossname about the Anglican Communion anyway? Time to pack up the whole shebang. We can be in communion with each other and no more than that, just like we are with the Old Catholics, and them that don't want to be in communion are free to sodd off. There's surely enough to make you doubt, or otherwise, the CofE in what it does or doesn't do internally. But don't bother with TEC (do you really see yourself worshipping using those bizarre bendy poles?). If you really can't stick it, come to Wales. Even if I moved back to England now I'd regard myself as CinW. I think we've even got a couple of parishes just on the other side of the border. Maybe we should have some more- if TEC can have churches in the Bishop of Gibraltar's manor, I don't see why not.
[ 14. January 2016, 17:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Even if I moved back to England now I'd regard myself as CinW.
It'd be fascinating if different provinces started having their own parishes in other jurisdictions. I wonder if that will happen.
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arse
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Time to pack up the whole shebang.
Well, I've been saying that for years. It usually ends with someone shouting at me.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I will shout at you but only to express hearty agreement.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I don't know if this is a Welsh thing but I do have a lot of sympathy here with Albertus.......interesting thing is that the C-i-W has had a debate some time back on gay marriage with a simple majority in favour. It fell short of the two thirds majority and it wasn't a bill - the bishops won't bring in a bill unless they're reasonably sure of success and I think we'd have to petition Parliament for a change in the law perhaps but which way things will go is anybody's guess I suppose
Perhaps a looser federation type structure would be the way to go?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Albertus:
But don't bother with TEC (do you really see yourself worshipping using those bizarre bendy poles?)
I can't see myself worshiping with bizarre bendy poles.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The only question now is if the ACNA will be given full member status.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Even if I moved back to England now I'd regard myself as CinW.
It'd be fascinating if different provinces started having their own parishes in other jurisdictions. I wonder if that will happen.
Many of the congregations who have split from TEC in the United States have affiliated themselves with Provinces such as Rwanda.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I was bitterly disappointed with the acronym. ACNA is too close to acne, and the eye persists in reading it that way. But I suppose a bunch of bishops cannot be sensitive to this...
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Any chance of sending missionaries to found a TEC-in-England?
Ms. Mother Beeswax Altar and I will be happy to serve as a missionaries to England but only if RuthW will agree to be our parish administrator.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I was bitterly disappointed with the acronym.
This non-Anglican is still confused by them. I thought GAFCON was some kind of government regulator or quango, though its influence seems to work more along the lines of SPECTRE.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But don't bother with TEC (do you really see yourself worshipping using those bizarre bendy poles?).
This did make me laugh, but I assure you that most parishes here wouldn’t know a bendy pole from a verger’s wand. Because of the 1979 Prayer Book, most parishes--whatever their “flavor”--are probably a little more Anglo-Catholic in worship than their average English counterpart but you still wouldn’t have to go overboard.
My guess would be that any CofE individual who ended up in the US for some reason--work, emigration, better weather, whatever--is still likely to be most comfortable in TEC. ACNA seems to be neither dying nor thriving, but their geographical presence is much more limited than TEC.
On this board I KNOW someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I also suspect most any member of TEC who had to move to England for a short or long term would be able to find a CofE church where they would be welcomed warmly, and worship in a manner which made them feel at home.
To me, that’s communion. What the Primates are doing looks more like kindergarten.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
What the Primates are doing looks more like kindergarten.
More like high school bullying to my mind.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The whole thing is rather trite in my view. In the real world we have these wonderful faithful African Anglicans whose countries have failed to address wars with their neighbours, wars within with other Christians in their own countries, genocidal pasts and terror-wars with Islamists. And they focus on sex. Again. Better to replace the Anglican Communion with other things, and it will be more than on thing I think.
What is CinW? Catholic in Waiting? It is the name of a radio station in Canada CINW. GAFCON - I always think of DEFCON which is some nuclear war readiness state. "GAFCON has missals at the ready!"
[ 14. January 2016, 19:04: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I met an ACNA priest for the first time last year. He told me they're doing well in Tennesee and other Bible-belt states, predominantly through receiving refugees from 'non-denom', 'seeker-friendly' churches and so on.
Meanwhile, I'd be delighted to welcome Rev and Mrs Beeswax Altar asvmissionaries ... provided he doesn't bring Texas with him ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
(Joke, joke ... it was a joke ...)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Of course, it depends on where you live... I just looked at the ACNA website for the Diocese that includes Atlanta. There are about 30 churches and missions in Georgia, at least some of which don’t seem to have their own property yet. Missing from the list was an older, more established REC church that I know of, so I’m not clear what that might be about.
Episcopalians don’t have the presence in Georgia that the Methodists and Baptists do, but we still have more churches than that in the Atlanta area alone. Furthermore, the Diocese of Atlanta has been fairly proactive about planting churches in newer suburbs of late. Some of those have experienced growth that would make a Southern Baptist preacher proud.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Any chance of sending missionaries to found a TEC-in-England?
Ms. Mother Beeswax Altar and I will be happy to serve as a missionaries to England but only if RuthW will agree to be our parish administrator.
Agreed!
My first thought was, Will they suspend taking our money for three years?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
At some point when my husband (the main wage-earner in the family) retires we will move to another state. When we do, we must necessarily seek out a new church. I have resolved in advance that we're going to leave ACNA/TEC and all these boneheaded quarrels behind. Somewhere there must be a church that hasn't been sucked into this black hole.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
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Posted
The real story out of the Anglican primates statement is as follows:
1) The ACNA is now a de facto province of the Anglican Communion. The fact that the archbishop of the ACNA, the Most Rev. Foley Beach, was seated and given "voice and vote" means that was treated as an equal Anglican primate. If the archbishop of the ACNA is an Anglican primate then, by extension, the ACNA is an Anglican province. I think this could impact some litigation between the Episcopal Church and departing parishes and dioceses, which can now argue that the ACNA is merely another recognized province of the Anglican Communion and they are free to transfer to it as the Episcopal Church has been suspended.
2) The Episcopal Church was suspended for three years because its polity doesn't allow the presiding bishop to rule it. As such, the primates settled on a suspension until the next sitting of the Episcopal Church's governing General Convention. As most of the conservatives have departed for the ACNA, the real fight is between the liberals like Curry and the more militant left, who are giving a middle-finger to the Anglican primates. It also doesn't help the Episcopal Church moving forward that this year's General Convention instructed the next sitting to begin the process of adopting a new book of common prayer to reflect the theological and liturgical innovations, as conservatives would call them, of the left over the past 20 or so years. I see a scenario where the left of the Episcopal Church says to-hell-with-the-Anglican-Communion and merges with the United Methodists, who are in the midst of their own Anglican-style breakup, and what remains of the Evangelical Lutherans.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I don't know if this is a Welsh thing but I do have a lot of sympathy here with Albertus.......interesting thing is that the C-i-W has had a debate some time back on gay marriage with a simple majority in favour. It fell short of the two thirds majority and it wasn't a bill - the bishops won't bring in a bill unless they're reasonably sure of success and I think we'd have to petition Parliament for a change in the law perhaps but which way things will go is anybody's guess I suppose
Perhaps a looser federation type structure would be the way to go?
The question of our recent vote here did cross my mind after I'd posted. What if it had got the 2/3 majority? What if the CinW had petitioned Parliament to change the law (you're right, we would have to, the Act that introduced SSM in England & Wales says we have to, for reasons that I think I understand)? Would we now be being put out on our ear or at least sent to sit on the naughty step because we think that gay people should live within the discipline of marriage rather than be sent to prison? It's quite an alarming thought. AIUI ++Barry couldn't attend the meeting in canterbury for family reasons.
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
If the archbishop of the ACNA is an Anglican primate then, by extension, the ACNA is an Anglican province. I think this could impact some litigation between the Episcopal Church and departing parishes and dioceses, which can now argue that the ACNA is merely another recognized province of the Anglican Communion and they are free to transfer to it as the Episcopal Church has been suspended.
I’d be surprised if this really moved any court. If the Episcopal Church is hierarchical and has set up their canons correctly in light of previous Supreme Court rulings, courts will rule that the property was held in trust for the National Church.
If it is not hierarchical, or the canons are not set up properly (the two main lines of argument ACNA has tried to use so far) then the court has more freedom to rule for the local congregation.
It is interesting that those filing briefs in support of TEC have at times included the Catholic church and the Seventh Day Adventists. Neither body could be called liberal on the question of marriage equality, but they consider the cases to have important ramifications for their own church polity.
As has been pointed out, this particular body has no power to enforce or require these sanctions, which makes the fact they are “imposing” them a bit of a risk. The last time TEC stepped back voluntarily, there were those quick to take advantage and stack the deck to our disadvantage. My guess would be we will not be so quick to acquiesce this time; if we choose to abide by them I suspect we will also be looking for places to spend the money hitherto given to the various Anglican bodies--places more in keeping with the mission of TEC. Some of those places will certainly still be Anglican, but others will have to pick up the expenses of the International bodies.
That’s what it says in this cup of tea leaves, at any rate.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
The holier-than-thou mealy-mouthed tone of all these pronouncements is a bit distasteful. I say this in Christian love, of course, as part of our shared desire to walk together.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
GAFCON sez:
quote:
Author:
Eliud Wabukala and Peter Jensen
Statement by the GAFCON Chairman, The Most Rev. Dr. Eliud Wabukala and The GAFCON General Secretary, The Most Rev. Dr. Peter Jensen
14th January 2016
The Anglican Communion is our spiritual home and the GAFCON Primates travelled to England in the hope that godly faith and order could be restored through renewed obedience to the Bible.
We are pleased that Archbishop Foley Beach of the Anglican Church in North America has played a full part in the Canterbury meeting of Primates and that sanctions have been applied to the Episcopal Church of the United States, (TEC) recognising the need for mutual accountability on matters of doctrine within the family of the Communion.
However, this action must not be seen as an end, but as a beginning. There is much that causes us concern, especially the failure to recognise the fact that the Anglican Church of Canada (ACoC) has also rejected the collegial mind of the Communion by unilaterally permitting the blessing of same-sex unions and the ordination of those in active homosexual relationships. We fear that other provinces will do the same.
Since the beginning of the crisis in the Communion brought about by the actions of both TEC and the ACoC, the Anglican instruments of unity have been unable to guard biblical truth and restore godly order. There must therefore be doubt about the effectiveness of the sanctions that have been agreed.
In particular, it must be recognised that the continuing brokenness of the Communion is not the result simply of failed relationships, but is caused by the persistent rejection of biblical and apostolic faith as set out in Lambeth Resolution 1.10. We are therefore disappointed that the Primates’ statement makes no reference to the need for repentance.
The need for the GAFCON movement is being recognised by an ever increasing number of people and we are encouraged in our conviction that God has called us to work for an Anglican Communion which is a truly global family of Churches. We long to see a united, confident and courageous witness to God who by the death and resurrection of his Son Jesus Christ has given us an unshakeable hope and assures us of his unfailing love.
What advantage is it to TEC to acquiesce to this exclusion, given it is clear that the end goal is their total expulsion from the Communion and replacement by ACNA?
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
If the archbishop of the ACNA is an Anglican primate then, by extension, the ACNA is an Anglican province. I think this could impact some litigation between the Episcopal Church and departing parishes and dioceses, which can now argue that the ACNA is merely another recognized province of the Anglican Communion and they are free to transfer to it as the Episcopal Church has been suspended.
I’d be surprised if this really moved any court. If the Episcopal Church is hierarchical and has set up their canons correctly in light of previous Supreme Court rulings, courts will rule that the property was held in trust for the National Church.
If it is not hierarchical, or the canons are not set up properly (the two main lines of argument ACNA has tried to use so far) then the court has more freedom to rule for the local congregation.
It is interesting that those filing briefs in support of TEC have at times included the Catholic church and the Seventh Day Adventists. Neither body could be called liberal on the question of marriage equality, but they consider the cases to have important ramifications for their own church polity.
As has been pointed out, this particular body has no power to enforce or require these sanctions, which makes the fact they are “imposing” them a bit of a risk. The last time TEC stepped back voluntarily, there were those quick to take advantage and stack the deck to our disadvantage. My guess would be we will not be so quick to acquiesce this time; if we choose to abide by them I suspect we will also be looking for places to spend the money hitherto given to the various Anglican bodies--places more in keeping with the mission of TEC. Some of those places will certainly still be Anglican, but others will have to pick up the expenses of the International bodies.
That’s what it says in this cup of tea leaves, at any rate.
I'm no lawyer, but I see the lay of the land as follows:
1) The Episcopal Church is no longer a member in good standing of the Anglican Communion, at least for the next three years.
2) Parishes and dioceses affiliated with the Episcopal Church--some like South Carolina of course pre-date the national church, which complicates things--which until now has been part of the broader Anglican Communion.
3) If it's no longer a full member with voice and vote in the Anglican Communion then parishes and dioceses may be able to make an argument that they wish to transfer their allegiance to a province of the Anglican Communion that remains in good standing.
4) While the primates of the Anglican Communion--and the archbishop of Canterbury himself--are not overlords of the Episcopal Church, it isn't a stretch to claim that if the Episcopal Church is a hierarchal organization then somewhere in its heirarchy it presumably recognizes the Anglican Communion and whomever or whatever entity is charging with speaking for the Anglican Communion.
That's just me thinking off my head. It could mean nothing but I think it's certainly an interesting thought to consider.
I was really surprised at what happened. I think judging from the fact that both the left and right factions of the Episcopal Church, ACNA and Anglican Communion writ large are unhappy then what happened is probably for the best. Still, I thought what would happen would be some sort of compromise whereby the Episcopal Church and ACNA mutually recognize each other and cease litigation.
I would, however, argue that the Episcopal Church has recognized ACNA as all reports say that the Most Rev. Foley Beach, the ACNA archbishop, was seated as an equal primate of the Anglican Communion and given full voice and vote without any objections by the Episcopal Church or any other recognized province of the Anglican Communion.
This recognition certainly undercuts the Episcopal Church's longstanding argument that it had the exclusive franchise on the Anglican Communion without the territorial boundaries of the United States.
But that argument in and of itself was always flawed because the Episcopal Church has ceded jurisdiction over American Samoa -- an American territory in the Pacific -- to the Anglican province in New Zealand. That's a significant precedent, in my opinion. Then there's also the precedent in Europe, whereby the Episcopal Church and the Church of England mutually exist in the same countries on the European continent.
[ 14. January 2016, 21:37: Message edited by: Meet and Right So to Do ]
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
This morning I woke up an Anglican in the Anglican Communion and tonight I will go to me bed as .... well, I'm not actually sure what to be honest. Has the church suddenly become a Global Anglican Church? Where was the authority to do this? I feel completely lost. I certainly do not want to be a part of a Global Anglican Church. I want to be what I was this morning - an Anglican in an Episcopal church in my province, where we were able to have the autonomy to respond to the call of the Gospel in our own culture and situation. It was always held in balance and could even have a prophetic voice from the other members in their own provinces. Tonight, none of that seems to exist anymore. I'm not sure if I'm understanding all of this correctly, but what seems to have been core to the church I love seems to have been completely white washed over to placate a group that want something else but who have lacked the courage to leave it.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
On that last point should it not be the group that wants to change the organisation - and can't get the support - should be be the ones to leave?
Why should the majority view, the oldest view - the founding view indeed - be the one to change to suit the new minority view?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
From our Presiding Bishop, Michael Curry:
quote:
“Our commitment to be an inclusive church is not based on a social theory or capitulation to the ways of the culture, but on our belief that the outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross are a sign of the very love of God reaching out to us all.
More here.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
This morning I woke up an Anglican in the Anglican Communion and tonight I will go to me bed as - well, I'm not actually sure what to be honest...
A valid reaction.
My local friends have a different reaction -- shrug. "Nothing will change at the church I go to." "I sing in the choir, I'll still be singing in the same choir." "They have 3 years to catch up with us on same sex marriage."
One friend said "It means we are no longer part of a global community, but this was predicted 15 years ago when TEC decided homosexuality is not a sin."
The conservatives including many African churches simply cannot accept the liberal TEC as "one of us." Whether or not I agree with them, I admire their refusal to be bought by the 30% of the budget that comes from TEC (as stated above).
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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