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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: DEUTERONOMY--Second Thoughts (Bible Non-Stop)
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
(Link to Deuteronomy Non-Stop)
As we have embarked on a new Book for the Non-Stop treatment, please allow me to take a moment to provide the history & rules (such as they are) for posting on the Non-Stop thread:
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The history and much of the origin story of the Non-Stop threads is lost in cyberspace. My understanding (based on what was said here at the beginning of the Genesis thread is that there once was a discussion about the Bible and how “originally” much of it was written in terms of the audience of that time. The thought was that we might therefore “paraphrase” the received text to reflect our times.
The Ship, being the Ship, began to take the concept of “paraphrase” rather loosely, often highlighting (or inserting) humorous takes on the text. This, it seems to me, is not completely unreasonable. Speaking for myself, I have learned a lot about the Biblical text by going through and "paraphrasing" it, noticing certain subtle issues that I would have missed in a more traditional reading. In my experience, giving a humorous slant to the verses provides serious insight to them as well.
So what do we do in a Non-Stop thread? We--ahem!--paraphrase the text, in consecutive order. But remember, this is a paraphrase, not a complete re-write. The events and basic sense of the original text should be maintained. For example, if (back when Genesis was being covered) you were doing the section of Cain slaying Abel, it would NOT be proper to have the two of them make up, shake hands and go out for a drink. Cain slays Abel and that MUST remain true in the paraphrased version. However, you could make the actual killing read like a comic misadventure, or a noir crime novel, or a selection from Agatha Christie, as your creativity suggests.
New contributors are always welcome! The more variety the better, so far as I am concerned.
To see what has been done so far:
The link to the Genesis thread is above.
Here is the link to Exodus.
And to Leviticus.
And to Numbers, at least where it is right now. If and when that thread gets moved to Limbo, that link may likely break.
There are also associated “Second Thoughts” threads (like this one) associated with each of the Books. These can usually be found in Limbo right next to the Non-Stop Book thread. These threads are also well worth reading for the behind-the-scenes discussion of various issues that are raised as we go along. If you have any questions or issues with the Non-Stop thread, the Second Thoughts thread is the place to raise them!
If you post on the Non-Stop thread (and I really hope you do), please include the Book, Chapter and verse(s) that you are covering at the start of your posts, so that the next poster knows where to pick up. Going back to re-write verses that somebody else already did, while not completely forbidden, is not really The Done Thing. It smacks of discourtesy.
We have also started the practice of providing a link to a…ummmmm…legitimate translation (or translations) of the section that is being “paraphrased.” This is helpful if only so that readers who are curious can see how the Non-Stop version changed things!
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[Edited to include link. Mamacita, Host]
[ 22. April 2015, 17:06: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
A long time ago, I did that thing of reading the Bible starting at Genesis 1:1 and just keeping going. I slogged through Leviticus and Numbers. Deuternomy came as a relief, it's much more of a story and hence easier to read. But, my enduring memory was that I had already read it in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers (sometimes more than once).
Which rather set the way I started off the non-stop version of the book.
And, of course, Moses is telling a story. It's the story of the recent history of the people. I'm sitting comfortably. Are you?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Yes, I have been resisting the temptation to call it "Dittoronomy"...
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
"Dittoronomy"
That's good.
And now, kids, it's story time!
[ 17. March 2015, 21:29: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
That whole issue of what constitutes a 'paraphrase' has proved to be fun. I think it works well to see the human element in the writing and try to think how it would have sounded to the original audience (in fact, the audience of numerous generations born and bred in the ancient near eastern environment). The rhetoric, the poetic, the empathetic, the dust on the sandals, the donkey droppings on the road, the scandals, rumours, views from above and from below.... and then to transpose that into the same effect for modern audiences (or some of them, at any rate). There are hints of such rhetoric in the text and I suspect before the text became formalised for ritual use it was the stuff of camp fires and also, I think, of argument with those of different persuasions, whether within the camp or without.
It's about building the world, in a way, not just reciting the word.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
It occurs to me (on second thought, so to speak) that I didn't set the scene very well for chapter 2. Somebody might read it as Moses talking to the Scribe. That wasn't the image I had in my head. Rather, I imagined Moses sitting alone and reflecting on the things that he had just told the Scribe earlier in the day...basically an old man muttering to himself about his memories.
I'll try to be clearer in the future.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
I discovered that it is difficult to remember exactly what we called such-and-such a name in the earlier books! It takes a bit of scratching around the Ship to find the etymological puns used then. Thank goodness Triteronomy and Quaderonomy were shredded before they made the canon.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Truth! Trying for consistency has been a bit tricky. I finally decided that I'd just do my best and, if worst comes to worst, if and when the Ship makes a book out of the Non-Stop it will be the editor's problem to reconcile... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Or, the editor may decide there's nothing wrong with inconsistency and not even attempt to reconcile the inconsistencies.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
Thank goodness Triteronomy and Quaderonomy were shredded before they made the canon.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Alan's latest paraphrase drew my attention to that opening passage in Dt 7. It is linked to in the other thread, but here it is again for ease of reference – here courtesy of the NET Version:
quote:
When the Lord your God brings you to the land that you are going to occupy and forces out many nations before you — Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, seven nations more numerous and powerful than you — and he delivers them over to you and you attack them, you must utterly annihilate them.
Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy! You must not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the Lord will erupt against you and he will quickly destroy you. Instead, this is what you must do to them: You must tear down their altars, shatter their sacred pillars, cut down their sacred Asherah poles, and burn up their idols. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. He has chosen you to be his people, prized above all others on the face of the earth.
There's some pretty succinct and strong stuff in there (the Herem – annihilate!); no beating about the bush. It comes fairly hot on the heels of the chapter 6 piece of pith (the Shema – hear!): “Listen, Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength!”
Whoever wrote Deuteronomy had an eye for conciseness and consistency in communication. Little did he know – or did he? - that one pith (the shema) would sit lovingly on a Christian's shoulder, while another (the herem) would burden those shoulder blades!
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I just looked back at the Genesis link because I remembered that I got shot down pretty quick from contributing but didn't remember why. I see it was for adding something from the Islamic tradition that I had read in Hagar's wiki. She was no doubt right to make that rule, but what ever in the world happened to LynnMagdaleneCollege after pretty much taking over this area for years? It disturbs me almost as much as a death when heavy posters just drop off the board.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Can't speak for specific individuals, but no doubt for some there is a moving on in life and a growth, something of a discipleship move. Staying in the same groove for too long risks ossification. Joining the Ship may be akin to escaping slavery in Egypt, but at some point the promised land beckons and it's time to step off.
For others there are just busy times - perhaps months - that take one away from reading and posting.
Perhaps there is a time when a break - something of a sabbatical - can be a good thing, too. That might be the case when one feels that one has said everything there is to be said on a topic (or topics).
Such movings on, of course, break stability and can cause a shake. That is just life, really. Not sure there is any panacea for that!
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
Whoever wrote Deuteronomy had an eye for conciseness and consistency in communication. Little did he know – or did he? - that one pith (the shema) would sit lovingly on a Christian's shoulder, while another (the herem) would burden those shoulder blades!
There had been a recent thread about those difficult questions posed by, among other passages, the herem. I just put the question in the mouths of the Israelites.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I finally have gotten back into the Non-Stop after a prolonged lapse. My apologies. In real life, I write legal opinions and orders with fair regularity, but of late I have been having to write up a number of extremely complex and detailed matters. After a full day doing that, turning my hand to writing the Non-Stop did not seem the least bit enticing.
Now, however, I am back to doing more run-of-the-mill decisions, so I can let my whimsy play in Non-Stop again!
At least for the time being.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Sometimes there is simply too much of a good thing; everyone needs a rest from time to time. After 40 years in the wilderness, I reckon you've earned a break!
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
A few points on Chapter 10.
First, I should give proper credit for the crossword clues. They were constructed by the late Frank W. Lewis. The original puzzle was published in December of 1975, although the one I was looking at to swipe clues from was a December 2000 reprint.
Second, an interesting dispute on the meaning of a word in this chapter. One of the places mentioned by Moses is "Gudgodah." According to Hitchcock's Dictionary of Bible Names, that should be translated as "happiness" (hence "our Happy Place"). But the OT Hebrew Lexicon gives the translation of "Slashing Place." Now maybe it is just me and my 21st Century sensibilities, but "Happiness" and "Slashing Place" are not exactly my idea of synonyms. What's up with this place?
Third, yes, I did put a contemporary spin on the bit about resident foreigners in light of recent news stories, but check out the legitimate translations in the link. I didn't add all that much.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Third, yes, I did put a contemporary spin on the bit about resident foreigners in light of recent news stories, but check out the legitimate translations in the link. I didn't add all that much.
I liked that bit particularly.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Now maybe it is just me and my 21st Century sensibilities, but "Happiness" and "Slashing Place" are not exactly my idea of synonyms. What's up with this place?
What an interesting philosophical question: Where does 'happiness' come from?
The nearest Hebrew term to 'Gudgodah' I could find was the noun gad (= dG"), which is more akin to 'good luck', or 'fortune' when applied by Leah to her son, Gad (Gen. 30:11). That's by way of a pun, of course, so the field is still open for speculation.
The link to 'slashing place' is closer. The Hebrew word gadad (= גָּדַד) has a meaning along the lines of to cut, penetrate, or invade. It can also mean to gather troops together and there is a related word meaning to hew, or cut down, which aligns to 'slash'.
Still, this is one of those terms that has not been tied neatly to any particular etymological root, which is why a terminological etymologist with time and a good ANE lexicon on his hands can wallow in the company of angels on a pinhead. To add to the mix, The New Bible Dictionary offers the following on Gudgodah:
quote:
One of the Israelite encampments in the wilderness according to Dt. 10:7. Hor-hag-gidgadin (Nu. 33:32–33) is probably another form of the same name. Its location is not known, although its proximity to Bene-jaakan and Jotbathah suggests that it was somewhere in the mountains W of Wadi Arabah. The suggestion that the name survives in Wadi H̬adah̬id, in this area, is unlikely from a linguistic point of view. Baumgartner, comparing an Arab. word, has suggested that it may be an animal name, ‘a cricket’: the first element of the longer form, Hor, appears to mean ‘cave’.
So: a happy, slashing, military cricket in a cave. Covers all the angles, perhaps, if not all the angels.
As for the crossword puzzles, brilliant!
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
So: a happy, slashing, military cricket in a cave. Covers all the angles, perhaps, if not all the angels.
Oh great. Now I am thinking of jolly ninja crickets. If only I can get them to go "Ho, Ho, Ho!" it will fit into the season.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I really struggled with my latest effort (Deuteronomy 12) and frankly I feel like I made a bit of a dog's breakfast of it. I am sure I missed the finer points of what is going on.
One part that really stumped me. Comparing 12:15-19 with 12:20-28 it felt like the later was just repeating the former. Oh, the latter part dwelt on the blood bit more, but my overall sense was that it was just echoing what had just been said in the immediate prior verses.
Now, admittedly, this is Dittoronomy and there are a lot things repeated here that we have already read elsewhere--but not back to back like this. What am I missing?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
It looks to me like the first set of verses are to be applied in the future when they take possession of the promised land of Canaan, while verse 20 makes explicit that the same laws will still apply even further in the future when God expands their borders beyond Canaan. Still repetitious, but perhaps not pointless.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Nice to see Nigel going on with this again. I always read this with interest (and often with a smirk on my face ) Just a bit more, and you'll be trough these books that only talk about boring rules, and get to the exciting stuff.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I always bog down in the Begats -- looking forward to seeing how that will go.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Well, I found plenty to chew on in chapter 15. This is one of the biblical passages that deal with what happens in the 7th year. It's all about the shemittah = [שְׁמִטָּה], which is translated variously in various English versions as cancellation of debt, release, remission, forgiveness. A literal rendering would be a 'letting drop'.
A national seven-year rule doesn't seem to have been honoured in Israel, though there is evidence that kings declared a 'release' when they ascended to the throne.
Perhaps as a result commentaries discuss the following question: Was it absolute – i.e. every 7 calendar years at the same time for everyone? Or was it conditional – i.e. specific to individual debt periods, no matter when that occurred in a communal calendar, but rather when a debt reached its 7th year? Verse 9 of the chapter does rather suggest that the intention was absolute; creditors were not to cry off simply because the 7th year was approaching.
Another question: Was the release a total cancellation of debt, or a suspension for the 7th year only? Well again verse 9 would suggest that a cancellation was in view, given the risk that creditors would be put off.
The principle of cancellation – never mind if it was ever honoured in practice – has its own trajectory into the NT (Greek word aphesis = ἄφεσις) by which time the idea had pick up a focus on 'forgiveness', much wider than a social/economic/political angle though those are wide enough! But does that mean that for Christians the term should be restricted to a spiritual sense only? Is there still a sense in which a wider social rule applies and if it does, is it limited to what goes on in the Christian community or can it be taken to cover the world? An example would be if the Christian community can use the principle in support of international debt cancellation for countries (or individuals). That would solve a deficit or two. Mind you, the theological motivation in v.9 would probably not be taken seriously by the IMF.
On balance though I think this text limits application to the faithful community. The motivation for cancellation is that every citizen of that faithful community has an inheritance to manage and that this inheritance should not be taken away because of need. Still, it would be interesting to see how that would work out in practice. Would we need Community Banks that lend only to Christians so that Christians did not need to rely on 'foreign' (i.e. non-community) banks? Hmmm.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
This is one of the biblical passages that deal with what happens in the 7th year. It's all about the shemittah = [שְׁמִטָּה], which is translated variously in various English versions as cancellation of debt, release, remission, forgiveness. A literal rendering would be a 'letting drop'.
Any thoughts on whether that was in the mind of those who decided on the "Drop the Debt" campaign, even though that coalition of organisations also took inspiration from the 50 year jubilee, which seems to be an unrelated debt cancellation.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
That's a good question. As you say, the term 'Jubilee' carried the day there and I guess that may be because the term resonates with Christians more so than other terms. Still, although the term 'Drop' in 'Drop the Debt' may well have been a coincidence, it may just be that someone had thought about Deut. 15 and snuck the term in by the back door!
Slightly unrelated, but another thought-prang about this chapter occurred over the term 'redeem' in 15:15. In the NET Version this runs: “Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you...” A quick check of other English versions revealed that 'redeem' is the term of choice here (a few exceptions – there always are – e.g., Jubilee Bible opts for 'ransom').
I haven't often thought about this, but when I do I always feel that the 'redeem / ransom' language seems terribly commercial for something like the exodus. It implies that God regained possession of something (Israel) in agreeing a payment by way of exchange. I'm sure that the author of Deuteronomy 15 was aware of the Exodus version of the exodus event, so it seems surprising that the language of commerce would be applied to something that feels more appropriate to the “Mighty Hand and Outstretched Arm” of yore. Something more of military shock and awe rather than a visit to the pawn shop.
Of course the context of chapter 15 is rather commercial; debt forgiveness and monetary considerations, motivated by a need to keep the Israelite in control of his God-given land. Still, to add another motivation – the exodus – and explain it in a commercial context seems strange.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
To cancel all debt, nationwide, in the 7th year would lead to some crazy economic consequences. Imagine grifters like Donald Trump, coming up in year 6 and borrowing a jillion dollars and waiting for the ollee-ollee-in-free in 12 months. No, if you really wanted to do this it would be a rolling forgiveness --like balloon mortgages. And there would be some pretty nasty clauses applying to year six.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
So, chapter 16. Am I delusional or do the last 5 verses not link at all to the first 17 verses? There is a listing of feasts and suddenly we are appointing judges and fretting about posts being too near the altar.
How do chapters get assigned in books like this? Am I correct in assuming that they were not actually divided up in "chapters' in the original scrolls/tablets? The question I put in the Non-Stop is genuine: why not just make the last 5 verses the start of chapter 17, where they actually fit the content of the chapter? Why are they considered to be part of chapter 16?
Or is that something that I need to ask the Editor-In-Chief in the hereafter?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The division into chapter and verse was relatively late. The particular division of the Bible into the chapters we know is a 13th century innovation.
The Tanakh included divisions in the 10th century, which became the verses we're used to in the 15th century. The verse numbers we're used to were introduced for the NT in the 16th century.
Why the divisions between chapters were put where they are is something Wikipedia doesn't tell me. This particular odd break is not unique. For the purposes of our Non-Stop threads here I see no reason why we need to stick with the chapter divisions we've been given. We could easily do sections that a shorter than a chapter, or span more than one. Though I did enjoy the way you handled the interruption in your version.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
When I thought about this in the absence of anything but my imagination I wondered if the scribe charged with defining the alpha and omegas of chapter divisions had decided to work to a set number for each chapter and blow the consequences.
So I set to it with a Bible and started counting verse numbers per chapter. 46, 37, 29, 49, 33, 25, 26. By that stage I saw my clever little hypothesis disappear along the model of James 1:11 (“For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed”).
Just in case there was a conspiracy theory I could hang my hat on, though, I Googled those numbers and spent a happy half hour immersed in climatological data, Lottery numbers, and something to do with Marske Stray. Oh Yes. Reading between the lines it was quite clear that the Deuteronomist came to earth from Mars to warn human kind about the end of the world and how to get rich by seed-investing in his outreach mission in those last days.
Another hypothesis of a more banal kind was that perhaps chapter 16 would have been too short if it had stopped at verse 17. Imagine the lector reading a chapter at each mealtime in the Refectory and the monks having to stop eating when the chapter ended. Any self-respecting monk who was scribing the chapter numbers would have thought to himself: “I would barely get beyond the soup before Brother Theodosius rattled off this section. Blowed if I am going to go to Vespers on an empty stomach. Hang the context.”
Or perhaps there was a small group of scribes charged with chapter division and they were asked in turn to write out a chapter that would fit onto a standard piece of parchment. Some scribes had large script practice, some miniscule. Some liked to embellish the text with graffiti of a spiritual (and mythological) nature, others were more minimalist in their practice. The scribe responsible for writing out the text following chapter 15 didn’t believe in flourishes or imperfect eyesight. He laboured long and hard into the night to cover off the Passover, Feast of Weeks, and Tabernacles, and only then realised that he still had a quarter of the parchment left. “Dang” He thought, “My master will beat me hollow for wasting all that space.” So he carried on, finished off the page, and when to bed with a clear conscience. Next day the scribe picking up the task of doing chapter 17 recognised that he had been stuffed and so threw in several contorted unicorns and a number of gargoyles to cover the embarrassment and the fact that he now really only had 20 verses to play with in his context.
Anyway, I suspect the Editor-in-Chief would deny any responsibility for this. Chapters and Verses are uninspired and are for wimps, he probably would say.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Dt. 20 is a passage that demands further investigation, if only because it contains the controversial section on the complete extermination of a particular set of humans.
The relevant Hebrew word when transliterated without vowels is Hrm, in either verbal or nominal forms. It occurs in verse 17 – twice, to give it added emphasis. English Versions cope with it in various ways, for example:
Ban
Destruction / Destroy
Devote (sometimes with “to destruction”)
Consecrated
Exterminate
The normal rules of war permitted the offer of a covenant treaty. This was quite common across the ancient near east (ANE), but at least some of the inhabitants of Canaan were excluded from this offer; they had to be killed without the option. Some commentators refer to this type of warfare as Holy War, in that it refers to things that are ‘holy’ (devoted, or separated out) to God. Cognate terms are found elsewhere in the ANE, so this concept was not unique to Israel.
In later usage the term came to be used to denote excommunication from the community, which may have led to the use of ‘Ban’ as an English translation, partly guided by an anachronistic rendering of the Greek term used in the LXX Version – anathema [= ἀνάθεμα]. At some point the meaning of Herem shifted from a devoted offering to a cursed thing, and the Greek translators followed suit.
Why were the males in Canaan so separated out for destruction? I was intrigued by the fuller explanation given in the second temple literature, particularly around the events described in Genesis 6:1-4
quote:
When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose. So the Lord said, “My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years.”
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men.
This is the precursor to the flood narrative and on its own is somewhat bizarre. The author assumes quite a bit of background that was presupposed with his audience. We get more info on this in the book of 1 Enoch 6-8. It’s a bit lengthy, but worth including here for ease of comparison with Gen. 6.
quote:
And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: ‘Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.’ …
And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another’s flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones. …
These Nephilim giants were not destroyed by the flood, but survived into the time when Moses and the Israelites appeared on the scene. The Israelite spies were sufficiently impressed by them to make a feature of their existence in their reports; the sons of Anak, who came from the Nephilim. It appears to have been these descendants that the Herem texts were aimed at. Joshua 11:21-23 makes the point this way:
quote:
At that time Joshua attacked and eliminated the Anakites from the hill country—from Hebron, Debir, Anab, and all the hill country of Judah and Israel. Joshua annihilated them and their cities. No Anakites were left in Israelite territory, though some remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. Joshua conquered the whole land, just as the LORD had promised Moses, and he assigned Israel their tribal portions. Then the land was free of war.
This is, then, perhaps the point of the ‘Holy War’ – the specific annihilation of the descendants of those members of the divine council (the sons of God) who had overstepped their mark quite considerably.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Just keeping the main thread moving (and peradventure this one too), seeing as we are not too far from The End. Spoiler alert: the last word is “Israel”.
A bit of a conundrum with chapter 21. The narrative setting is of law court rules being handed down prior to entry in the land, but those rulings themselves relate to future events when the people are settled in the land – “If it should happen that … then you should…”
Previously on the thread (and that phrase sounds like the opening to an episode of a TV fiction series) I paraphrased similar court texts into a Supreme Court style setting, with Moses the Judge handing down a ruling. This time I paraphrased it in a later setting, using some sort of (and that’s a phrase you hear in pretty much every episode of Star Trek) proleptic eye to situate the narrative in the land.
Raises interesting options for reading Scripture. How should one ‘read’ texts such as Deuteronomy? Are there different lessons to be learned from taking it in its narrative setting, compared to its imagined world setting? Not to mention its literary development setting(s). Is it even valid to blend the imagined setting with more contemporary (i.e. modern) lived settings?
Hang on. I’m getting a hermeneutical headache.
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
Just keeping the main thread moving (and peradventure this one too), seeing as we are not too far from The End. Spoiler alert: the last word is “Israel”.
Dang, I hadn't thought of that. With the imminent move to accommodations on the new Ship, the Non-Stop is going to be more fragmented than usual.
Almost like a real Biblical text.
I don't have any real hopes of finishing Deut before the move. We need to give some thought to how we are going to handle that. AIUI, the "old" Ship will still exist as read-only, so I suppose we could just do massive cut-and-pasting to move this Book to the new location and then finish it there. In theory. Maybe.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
In a project management world I suppose some would take the opportunity of engaging in a data cleanse exercise to strip out those parts they don't like. Just think what it would have been like if Marcion had been a Project Manager.
I agree it's very doubtful we can polish off the Beautiful Deut before Armageddon, so the idea of a copy and paste sounds a good one, if practically possible. How many great pieces of work were rudely interrupted by external historical factors, I wonder? Was Mark just getting into the flow when he was cut off from beginning chapter two of his definitive history of early Christianity?
Posts: 2826 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
If Deut is still in the works when we cut over to the Promised Land, er, New Ship, I'm willing to do the cut-n-paste on both threads. Seems like a good hostly type of thing to do.
Although it would be way cool if it were finished and we had a complete Pentateuch in Limbo.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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