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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: BREAKING--Two State Solution officially dead.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Or at least that is coming out of the Netanyahu and Orange One lovefest.
Netanyahu is saying he looks forward to a Greater Isreal and peace with his Arab Neighbors. The Orange one is acquiescing.
It is a brave new world.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Some observers have been saying for a while that things might actually be better if Israel went the whole hog and unilaterally annexed the whole West Bank.
What they're saying by this is (i) the Palestinian Authority is a nonsense and Oslo was set up to fail (ii) if Israel regularised their military occupation of the West Bank, this would at least mean that the "two legal systems" nonsense was done away with (iii) Palestinians would become voting citizens in Israel and (iv) if Israel then tried to expel millions of West Bank Palestinians the world could hardly just sit back and do nothing.
In reality the conservative arsewipes in government in Israel don't actually want the occupation to end, don't want millions of arabs suddenly becoming citizens, don't want to have to take responsibility for the many who survive on food handouts etc. And there is no guarantee that the world would do anything much if millions of Palestinians were made to leave.
I suggest that doing any such thing, even with the tacit support of Trump, would be beyond stupid and quite likely suicidal.
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arse
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
If two state is dead dead dead, a lot more will die in its wake.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
People who think what Trump says at one part of the day means anything in an hour haven't been watching.
This means nothing.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
It's not entirely what Trump says. It's also what Netanhayu thinks that he can now do.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
People who think what Trump says at one part of the day means anything in an hour haven't been watching.
This means nothing.
Yeah, like stating he was going to institute a Muslim ban, build a wall, institute a hiring freeze, restart the Dakota pipeline, repeal Affordable Healthcare, freeze Obama's in-process regulations, promote anti-abortion laws. Yep, never trust anything he says he will do as none of it has happened or is in process.
ETA: And this
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
It's not entirely what Trump says. It's also what Netanhayu thinks that he can now do.
[ 15. February 2017, 22:02: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Again, not listening. Trump's been all over on this particular topic - saying both two state and one state in the last year.
His only stated thing today was, in essence, whatever they want, which means nothing really.
Trump's certainly not going to press Netanhayu to change anything but he's not really committing to anything here beyond "Yeah, whatever."
I've heard this is Mr. Ivanka's file - somebody ask him what official policy is cause asking Trump about something he doesn't care about is pointless.
[ 16. February 2017, 00:26: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Trump's certainly not going to press Netanhayu to change anything but he's not really committing to anything here beyond "Yeah, whatever."
I don't dispute Trump's lack of interest. My point is that Trump's lack of interest signals to Netanyahu that he has an even freer hand to deal with the PA and Gaza however he wishes without having to put up with static, however heretofore ineffectual, from Washington. Now that the violation of private property rights has been "legitimised" by the Knesset's passage of the Regularisation Law (still to be challenged in court), we can expect to see even greater expansion of Jewish settlement in the West Bank. The very bad is getting worse.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is it too cynical, scheming, evil, strategic, profit making to suggest that this will provoke a terrorist event, another Project for a New American Century hard-on event* which will make Muslim bans, water boarding, black sites etc look kindergarten. Expect more than 7 million deaths this time.
*The George Bush II crew of war criminals prayed for a "Pearl Harbor" event pre 11 Sept 2001, about which they published a paper, since taken down, but beloved of conspiracy theorists, and illustrative of the complete amorality of Bush and his war criminal gang. I have a copy somewhere. If I had a rocket launcher..,
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
*The George Bush II crew of war criminals prayed for a "Pearl Harbor" event pre 11 Sept 2001, about which they published a paper, since taken down, but beloved of conspiracy theorists, and illustrative of the complete amorality of Bush and his war criminal gang. I have a copy somewhere.
This is obvious bullshit. Establishment Republicans, however much you may disagree with them, aren't pantomime villains so moustache-twirlingly evil that they would publish a document in which they 'prayed for a "Pearl Harbor" event'. I don't believe you have a copy of anything that even remotely comes close to this.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Regards, the hiring freeze. For a while there the Forest Service was in a panic because they could not hire the necessary seasonal firefighters they would have needed to be ready for the summer fires. About 6,000 workers.
The Feds have exempted the Forest Service from the freeze now, but they have yet to allow the National Park Service or the Bureau of Land Management to hire the people they need for their crews.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re the pre-9/11 document that np mentioned:
Evidently, it's the report "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (Wikipedia).
And here's a link to a PDF copy of the report at Archive.org.
Note: I just did a really quick search, and skimmed the Wiki article. Haven't looked at the PDF.
If that's what he meant, I suppose NP can thank you for doing his homework for him. I've searched the PDF (and not for the first time; I'm pretty sure NP has flogged this BS before) and there two places Pearl Harbor is mentioned in that article:
quote:
Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions. A decision to suspend or terminate aircraft carrier production, as recommended by this report and as justified by the clear direction of military technology, will cause great upheaval. Likewise, systems entering production today – the F-22 fighter, for example – will be in service inventories for decades to come. Wise management of this process will consist in large measure of figuring out the right moments to halt production of current-paradigm weapons and shift to radically new designs. The expense associated with some programs can make them roadblocks to the larger process of transformation – the Joint Strike Fighter program, at a total of approximately $200 billion, seems an unwise investment. Thus, this report advocates a two-stage process of change – transition and transformation – over the coming decades.
quote:
For the moment, the U.S. Navy enjoys a level of global hegemony that surpasses that of the Royal Navy during its heyday. While the ability to project naval power ashore is, as it has always been, an important subsidiary mission for the Navy, it may not remain the service’s primary focus through the coming decades. Over the longer term – but, given the service life of ships, well within the approaching planning horizons of the U.S. Navy – the Navy’s focus may return again to keeping command of the open oceans and sea lines of communication. Absent a rigorous program of experimentation to investigate the nature of the revolution in military affairs as it applies to war at sea, the Navy might face a future Pearl Harbor – as unprepared for war in the post-carrier era as it was unprepared for war at the dawn of the carrier age.
Neither of these can be reasonably glossed as "praying for a Pearl Harbor event."
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Again, not listening. Trump's been all over on this particular topic - saying both two state and one state in the last year.
OK, you did not specify that your comment was about this particular topic, but I suppose one could say it was implied by where it was placed.
BUt PG's comment still is relevant in that it isn't just what Trump will do, but what other leaders infer from his behaviour.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I would postulate that Trump is basically interested in only two things: 1. where the US (and more particularly the he) can make money in the Middle East and 2. backing the "winners" of the current conflict in Israel-Palestine.
The USA gives shedloads of aid dollars to Israel, but I think it is fairly natural to believe that there is money to be made there rather than in Palestine. I don't know about whether Trump himself has interests there.
And Netanyahu's whole macho image is based on being the hardman who never capitulates or rows back on anything, ever. They're natural allies.
Trump has said a load of different things in the past on all kind of things, including Middle East peace depending on who he was talking to at the time. But the fact remains that he believes in walls, he wants to keep refugees out and he believes in his own divine calling to rule.
In that sense, the USA and Israel are the same place and Trump and Netanyahu are as close as - I dunno, let's pick some random leaders from the past - Hitler and Mussolini.
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arse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'd like to have the following questions answered:
1) If the 1967 border is enforced with the creation of a Palestinian State on the West Bank, how will Israel defend its borders in the areas where geographically it will be impossible?
2) If the West Bank becomes a proper Palestinian State it has been said uncategorically that no Israeli - no Jew - will be allowed to live there. Therfore, what will happen to the 500,000 Israelis currently living in the West Bank?
3) If the Jews are cleansed from the West Bank, what will happen to all the businesses owned by Israelis?
4) If the Jews are expelled from the new Palestine, what will happen to the thousands upon thousands of Arabs who are at present employed by Jewish people in Israeli-owned companies, and who rely on their employment in order to live?
[ 16. February 2017, 08:47: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
The two state solution died back when Rabin was murdered.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'd like to have the following questions answered:
1) If the 1967 border is enforced with the creation of a Palestinian State on the West Bank, how will Israel defend its borders in the areas where geographically it will be impossible?
Not sure what you mean. How does any country defend their borders without having a buffer security zone?
quote:
2) If the West Bank becomes a proper Palestinian State it has been said uncategorically that no Israeli - no Jew - will be allowed to live there. Therfore, what will happen to the 500,000 Israelis currently living in the West Bank?
No they absolutely haven't categorically said that no Jew will be allowed to live there. I've heard Palestinians even in Hebron say that Jews who have a historic family tie to the city are welcome. Those who are not welcome are the parasitic settlers who have no tie to the city and who treat other people like vermin.
As to the settlers, I think this entirely depends on their attitude. My sense is that some settlements would be welcome in a future Palestinian state providing the settlers contribute effectively to that state. Not all the settlers are religious ideologues and I think some may actually be prepared to live in that arrangement and I think there may be some places where Palestinians would accept them as new Palestininan towns.
Those who did not accept would have to leave. There would be some negotiation around the edges as to exactly where the negotiated line should go - but the current situation where the settlements have unilaterally grabbed around 40% of the Palestinian land is clearly not acceptable.
quote:
3) If the Jews are cleansed from the West Bank, what will happen to all the businesses owned by Israelis?
They will close, just like the settler businesses in Gaza will close. I'm not sure why you think this is a major problem.
quote:
4) If the Jews are expelled from the new Palestine, what will happen to the thousands upon thousands of Arabs who are at present employed by Jewish people in Israeli-owned companies, and who rely on their employment in order to live?
Presumably either they'll start their own businesses or suffer.
It's a pretty daft argument to suggest that one people should accept the presence of an oppressor because they're giving them work and keeping them alive.
More of an issue may well be how the Israeli government responds to a Palestinian state where settlers have been forced to leave. I'm fairly sure this would lead to a very large number of "undesirables" being forced to leave Israel.
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arse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
3) If the Jews are cleansed from the West Bank, what will happen to all the businesses owned by Israelis?
They will close, just like the settler businesses in Gaza will close. I'm not sure why you think this is a major problem.
I wonder if you would like to consider this and the ramifications.
500,000 Jews settled in mainly Israeli towns.
The Palestinian authority comes and closes down their businesses, ejects them from their houses and actually transports them to the border and forces them to leave.
Do you know what that will look like, what it will remind them of?
Will all the shop windows bear the Arabic word for Jew (rather than Jude)?
Will the people with their suitcases all be wearing yellow stars?
What transport will they use? Cattle rucks? goods trains?
Do you realise how anti-Semitic the attitude of, Oh, they'll just have to close their businesses and leave' sounds.
And what, might I ask, do you think will happen if people do not want to leave?
And what, might I ask, do you think the UN and the international community - let's say, for example, the US, the UK and Australia, will say and do in the face of this ethnic cleansing?
[ 16. February 2017, 12:45: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I wonder if you would like to consider this and the ramifications.
500,000 Jews settled in mainly Israeli towns.
The Palestinian authority comes and closes down their businesses, ejects them from their houses and actually transports them to the border and forces them to leave.
Do you know what that will look like, what it will remind them of?
Mudfrog, listen I'm really trying to be calm with you but I've been there and I don't think you have. You walk down Al-Shuhada Street in Hebron and you tell me what it is like for someone else to close down your market.
Palestinians were expelled from their homes, some were murdered and many were pushed into inadequate housing in both 1948 and 1967.
Settlers, most of whom live in much better housing than any Palestinian, would have to go back to Israel - where there are jobs and other places that they can live. They'd not be put in refugee camps with the clothing they're standing in, they'd not be shot down.
quote:
Will all the shop windows bear the Arabic word for Jew (rather than Jude)?
Will the people with their suitcases all be wearing yellow stars?
What transport will they use? Cattle rucks? goods trains?
Again, I'm going to ignore this because I assume you are totally ignorant about what is actually happening in the West Bank.
Don't tell me about graffiti on shops until you've seen it in Hebron, please.
quote:
Do you realise how anti-Semitic the attitude of, Oh, they'll just have to close their businesses and leave' sounds.
Really, this is tiresome.
During the second world war, Nazis took over parts of the Channel Islands, including running businesses. At the end, they left.
Nobody said "oh hang on, the Germans were providing jobs to people, so we need them and they can stay". No. They were part of the occupying force and when hostilities ended, they left.
This is exactly the same. The settlers are in illegal land captured during a conflict against the will of the owners. In a negotiated settlement between equals, they'd have to leave. Nothing to do with them being Jews, everything to do with them being illegal settlers on occupied land.
quote:
And what, might I ask, do you think will happen if people do not want to leave?
And what, might I ask, do you think the UN and the international community - let's say, for example, the US, the UK and Australia, will say and do in the face of this ethnic cleansing?
Wow. I'm out of flabbers. They are fully gasted.
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arse
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I wonder if you would like to consider this and the ramifications.
500,000 Jews settled in mainly Israeli towns.
The Palestinian authority comes and closes down their businesses, ejects them from their houses and actually transports them to the border and forces them to leave.
Do you know what that will look like, what it will remind them of?
Will all the shop windows bear the Arabic word for Jew (rather than Jude)?
Will the people with their suitcases all be wearing yellow stars?
What transport will they use? Cattle rucks? goods trains?
Do you realise how anti-Semitic the attitude of, Oh, they'll just have to close their businesses and leave' sounds.
And what, might I ask, do you think will happen if people do not want to leave?
And what, might I ask, do you think the UN and the international community - let's say, for example, the US, the UK and Australia, will say and do in the face of this ethnic cleansing?
So let me get this straight - a bunch of Israelis illegally annex parts of Palestinian land, and trying to reverse that process is equivalent to the holocaust?
That's utterly ridiculous. Quite insane. It's an insult to both logic and the holocaust itself.
And it's about as close to "ethnic cleansing" as making all the Brits leave their colonies once the Empire ceased to be. Which is to say, not at all.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Transfer the same policies to another country and then work through it to see if they seem acceptable. I'll bet money they aren't. We can all be Palestinian liberators of a radical form until we think about it in our own context and realise we'd actually really not like that in our own country or on our own doorstep. There's a kind of strange fog that mists up the brain when people even so much as mention Palestine and Israel in the same sentence.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Transfer the same policies to another country and then work through it to see if they seem acceptable. I'll bet money they aren't. We can all be Palestinian liberators of a radical form until we think about it in our own context and realise we'd actually really not like that in our own country or on our own doorstep. There's a kind of strange fog that mists up the brain when people even so much as mention Palestine and Israel in the same sentence.
Which policies did you have in mind? I'm not following what you are saying.
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arse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
We're talking about 500,000 people here.
People who will all be expelled.
Not to another village, but out of the country.
I get what you're saying. I accept that I have not been to Hebron and I haven't seen the stuff you've seen and I am not saying it is defensible.
But this is surely on a different scale.
Up to 500,000 people?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We're talking about 500,000 people here.
People who will all be expelled.
Not to another village, but out of the country.
I get what you're saying. I accept that I have not been to Hebron and I haven't seen the stuff you've seen and I am not saying it is defensible.
But this is surely on a different scale.
Up to 500,000 people?
Out of interest, how many people do you actually think are living in Palestinian refugee camps? How many Palestinians are being supported by food hand-outs? How many are in prison for resisting an occupier?
Now tell me how many Israeli settlers live in unsanitary conditions. How many have no access to clean water, have poor roads to drive on and have limited access to Israel and their jobs. How many have been imprisoned for attacking Palestinian olive farmers, for stealing land.
This isn't whataboutery; in order to create good living conditions for the settlers, the Israeli authorities (intentionally, in many cases) have made Palestinian lives unbearable. If they now have to leave, meh.
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arse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So let me get this straight - a bunch of Israelis illegally annex parts of Palestinian land, and trying to reverse that process is equivalent to the holocaust?
That's utterly ridiculous. Quite insane. It's an insult to both logic and the holocaust itself.
Erm... Was it not the case that after Israel was attacked from Egypt they were then attacked from Jordan and it was in the defeating the Jordanian army that Israel occupied the West Bank? Is it not the case that 94% of the west bank has in fact been given back?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is it not the case that 94% of the west bank has in fact been given back?
Nope
Around 40% of land outside the green (1967 defacto peace) line is controlled by settlers. Of the rest, much is under permanent military occupation. Of the bits that aren't, life is extremely difficult as travel even between villages is almost impossible.
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arse
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I was trying to avoid getting into specifics because like any sectarianism it draws you into its entanglement. But for instance, let's take Northern Ireland. Imagine having the same policy there if a large enough portion of the populace decided they wanted a united Ireland and the current RofI was able to stomach the notion. Even before we get into the specifics, the current notions about Ireland and Northern Ireland held among some people in the UK are deeply disparaging and borderline racist if not overtly so, and yet the same people can be all manner of radical about their approach to Palestine - because its far away see, it doesn't really effect them that much and they are free from the reality of their own investments.
It's a bit like when I heard a lecture by the liberation theologian Gustavo Gutiérrez that everyone thought was great, then another theologian appeared immediately after him to take his ideas out of the Latin American context to place them in the context of Scotland, and guess what: everyone in the room was horrified. We can have all manner of romantic and idealist notions about other people in other countries, but once its on our own doorstep the issues become a lot different.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Transfer the same policies to another country and then work through it to see if they seem acceptable. I'll bet money they aren't.
OK. I'm picturing a situation where France has expanded into Britain, driving out (or killing) the native population and inserting their own people into the now-vacant areas. A situation where Brits are effectively locked up in Wales and Scotland while the French claim all of England as their own and violently suppress all Brits who cry out for liberation.
Now I'm imagining people saying that the French are wrong, and that all the French invaders should get the fuck out of England and let the Brits reclaim their homelands.
Seems pretty acceptable to me.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
If a huge population of people with no connection to Ireland in many generations moved in - with a private army - on the basis of a 1000 year old land claim, built a completely new first-world country on top of the existing infrastructure and left the rest of the existing population to exist in developing country conditions, then yes that is exactly the same.
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arse
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I can;t help but note how carefully you left Northern Ireland out of that equation
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
There was an injustice in Northern Ireland which has historic roots in British colonialism. But there is quite a massive difference between a historic wrong which has been there for hundreds of years and the one in Israel-Palestine which was simply conjoured out of thin air in 1948.
Most of the settlers in the West Bank did not originate in Israel and have been living in the settlements for a few decades.
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arse
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Erm... Was it not the case that after Israel was attacked from Egypt they were then attacked from Jordan and it was in the defeating the Jordanian army that Israel occupied the West Bank? Is it not the case that 94% of the west bank has in fact been given back?
In WW2 Britain was attacked by Germany. In defeating the German army Britain had to occupy France (and Belgium, etc.).
By your logic, Britain would have been justified in claiming France as its own and moving French populations out of various regions in order to insert British settlers there instead.
Oh, and if 50 years later there had been a worldwide effort to make those British settlers leave France it would have been ethnic cleansing on a par with the holocaust, right?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Mr Cheesy:
quote:
....was simply conjoured out of thin air in 1948.
That would be your specific view of it, and undoubtedly the specific view held by many others too. However it does ignore the views of many, many others who have an entirely different way of looking at it. Now we could all just hold on to our viewpoints and bash them up against each other like a game of conkers, hoping that eventually one cracks and breaks, but is that really the best approach? Is there not a better way?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
That would be your specific view of it, and undoubtedly the specific view held by many others too.
It is the view held by almost the entire international community and the UN, the EU and until recently the USA.
quote:
However it does ignore the views of many, many others who have an entirely different way of looking at it. Now we could all just hold on to our viewpoints and bash them up against each other like a game of conkers, hoping that eventually one cracks and breaks, but is that really the best approach? Is there not a better way?
Yes, the better way is to consider the welfare of everyone, not just those who happen to live in settlements. By any stretch of the imagination, the Palestinians have gotten an extremely poor deal out of the creation of Israel. However you want to cut a political agreement of the Israel-Palestine conflict, it cannot possibly be fair to suggest that Palestinians live in poverty whilst their neighbours live in luxury on the land which was theirs.
Frankly, the Palestinians I know are past caring who runs the show. They just want to have a life which isn't marked by some arsehole towering over them, telling them that they can't be free in their own houses and in their own land.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Mr Cheesy:
quote:
However you want to cut a political agreement of the Israel-Palestine conflict, it cannot possibly be fair to suggest that Palestinians live in poverty whilst their neighbours live in luxury on the land which was theirs.
See! There's the fog bank rolling in. I never suggested any such thing.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
See! There's the fog bank rolling in. I never suggested any such thing.
Palestinians can't be free when there are settlers inside the 1967 green line for more reasons than I can be bothered to type.
[ 16. February 2017, 13:51: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
You seem to be arguing with a blank wall! You have no idea what I even think because nowhere on this thread have I actually revealed it (and quite consciously so), yet you've jumped to all manner of assumption.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'm sorry, where have I accused you of having an opinion? The fact that Palestinian freedom is related to the presence of settlers is just a fact. There is no evidence whatsoever that settlers can live first-world lives and still extend freedom to Palestinian villagers.
I've no idea what your opinion is.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Mr Cheesy:
quote:
I've no idea what your opinion is
Exactly. For all you know I might entirely agree with you in everything you have said, yet you keep posting in a manner that feels a little like you're shouting at me about horrible settlers and freedom and the wrongs of oppression as of those things weren't important to any human being on earth.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
OK, then do please grace us with you opinion as to how settlers can co-exist with Palestinians in a way that allows for Palestinian freedom.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
No
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Dave W.
Project for a New American Century
The document is "Rebuilding America's Defences":
"Written before the September 11 attacks, and during political debates of the War in Iraq, a section of Rebuilding America's Defenses entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force" became the subject of considerable controversy. The passage suggested that the transformation of American armed forces through "new technologies and operational concepts" was likely to be a long one, "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."[45] Journalist John Pilger pointed to this passage when he argued that Bush administration had used the events of September 11 as an opportunity to capitalize on long-desired plans"
You can search for the document name "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which appears to be in PDF according to links I cannot follow on a phone. I have a copy from the organization's website before they took it down
No you are wrong, the conspiracy theories exist. The Bush gang's ideas exist. The combination has bad optics and fed conspiracy theories nicely. I suspect there will be an interesting history written one day.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The most likely long-term outcome of a 'one state solution' would surely be a system akin to apartheid-era South Africa.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Most of the settlers in the West Bank did not originate in Israel and have been living in the settlements for a few decades.
and when we talk about settlers in the West Bank we are talking about people who are out of the scope of the original 1948 partition anyway, and we are referring to a process which continues to this day.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Judging by this thread and thousands of similar ones, it may be that someone with no knowledge of history or politics has at least as good a chance of finding a solution than the cognoscenti.
The peace process started by Rabin, the peace process that had the greatest chance of success of any in my lifetime and which saw the Israelis forcibly dismantle settlements against the will of the Israeli occupiers, is dead and has been dead for years. This is a great tragedy in my opinion and is much to be lamented.
Successive interested parties have held out the prospect for a two-state solution since its death because there is nothing else that has arisen as a viable solution, or even a viable negotiation point.
I think what's happened now is that Israel is continuing to build settlements, because a negotiated solution seems unlikely to get them East Jerusalem, while the Palestinians (I think) are pursuing a strategy involving the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian State supported or authorised or legitimised by the United Nations.
In the circumstances, I think a negotiated solution in the foreseeable future is unlikely. If Trump manages to facilitate one, he will have earned his place in the history books and done the world a great service. I pray for his success.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Dave W.
Project for a New American Century
The document is "Rebuilding America's Defences":
"Written before the September 11 attacks, and during political debates of the War in Iraq, a section of Rebuilding America's Defenses entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force" became the subject of considerable controversy. The passage suggested that the transformation of American armed forces through "new technologies and operational concepts" was likely to be a long one, "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."[45] Journalist John Pilger pointed to this passage when he argued that Bush administration had used the events of September 11 as an opportunity to capitalize on long-desired plans"
You can search for the document name "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which appears to be in PDF according to links I cannot follow on a phone. I have a copy from the organization's website before they took it down
No you are wrong, the conspiracy theories exist. The Bush gang's ideas exist. The combination has bad optics and fed conspiracy theories nicely. I suspect there will be an interesting history written one day.
I didn't say conspiracy theories don't exist - of course they do! Conspiracy theories about the Apollo moon landings exist also.
I said your claim that "The George Bush II crew of war criminals prayed for a "Pearl Harbor" event pre 11 Sept 2001, about which they published a paper" is obvious bullshit, and it still is.
I've already quoted the two references to Pearl Harbor in that document, and they say nothing of the sort.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
No
What a funny way to add to a discussion.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The most likely long-term outcome of a 'one state solution' would surely be a system akin to apartheid-era South Africa.
Israel will never support a one-state solution because that would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. They will continue to support the status quo, where the Palestinian slaves -- sorry, natives -- are held in thrall, their land not really theirs but not really part of Israel either, steadily chipped away by illegal settlements until there is nothing left and all the Palestinians have to go somewhere else, PROBLEM SOLVED!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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