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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Martin McGuiness - Saint or Sinner ?
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I was born in Derry a few months before Martin but christened into the Church of Ireland (Protestant). Derry was a City in which the Catholics were ‘kept under’ and the Civil unrest was completely understandable. However Martin turned it into an armed Conflict which led to many years of Violence. He did however see the errors of his ways and the Peace Process would never have happened without his active involvement. Like St. Francis and St. Paul who in their youth were violent, I think Martin can now be regarded as more of a Saint than a Sinner. Do you agree ?
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
No I don't agree but I am willing to be convinced.
To me the key question is: Has he explicitly renounced murderous (not just any) violence and wrong, not just now when it has, arguably, completed its effect, but when he did it?
This is what St. Paul did.
However, I think your post is misconceived, as it implies that you can't be a saint whilst espousing and practising violence. SFAIK Mandela never renounced the violence he was involved with. I'm sure he regretted it, but probably believed it was the only way to get what he felt was right, and the same may be true of McGuiness.
Another difficulty is that it will be very difficult to get to know the facts of McGuiness' life. There will be so much story telling on both sides which will be hard to evaluate.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think these things are very hard to process, particularly when one is British and got a lop-sided view of what was happening.
Whether the violence was ever justified I honestly can't tell. I think the knee-capping, the targeting of civilians, the indiscriminate bombing, the drug-running and mob-style gangsterism would have put me off, but (even speaking as a pacifist), I'm not entirely sure that I wouldn't have been persuaded of the rightness of the struggle.
It takes a monumental amount of inner strength to face oppression and not pick up the tools of violence.
But all of that said, it seems to me that MM was an intelligent fellow and recognised when the wind had changed and was prepared to compromise for a longer-term win, even if the thing looked different to the way he maybe had been envisioning it for most of his life.
Sad to say, the real saint is the EU in this story. Increased flexibility across the border due to membership by both states basically meant that people with opposing national narratives could coexist in the same space.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He was the best one could have reasonably hoped against hope for.
[ 21. March 2017, 08:06: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Thank you Martin, that's a nice way to put it. Personally he always represented a major struggle and challenge to me to love my enemies. Such things are always easy in abstraction but desperately messy and emotionally entangled in reality.
I remember at the time peace was being tentatively brokered a rather faithful Christian gentleman noted that the prayer book had the line 'Take not thy Holy Spirit from us.' He noted the irony that the task of being peacemakers in a warring society hadn't been taken up by the church, so God sent his Spirit straight to the source of the problem.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Both saint and sinner - in other words, human.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Saint or Sinner is not for any of us to decide: in any case, how many of us who have reached our 60s would make the same decisions and take the same actions we did in our early 20s?
I feel that in eventually working within the framework of an elected assembly he proved he was a bigger man than many of his adversaries, including many who were widely thought to be "on the side of right".
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I remember at the time peace was being tentatively brokered a rather faithful Christian gentleman noted that the prayer book had the line 'Take not thy Holy Spirit from us.' He noted the irony that the task of being peacemakers in a warring society hadn't been taken up by the church, so God sent his Spirit straight to the source of the problem.
I think this happens a lot. It takes a very big person to see that in himself.
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arse
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I think, on balance, taking everything into consideration, weighing up all the pros and cons... I think I'm glad the murdering, scumbag, fascist thug is dead.
I hope he died screaming agony with the images of his victims tormenting him mercilessly.
It's things like this that makes me regret my universalism because I would like to think he's being tormented by an especially creative Satan, who woke up in a really foul mood.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I think, on balance, taking everything into consideration, weighing up all the pros and cons... I think I'm glad the murdering, scumbag, fascist thug is dead.
I hope he died screaming agony with the images of his victims tormenting him mercilessly.
It's things like this that makes me regret my universalism because I would like to think he's being tormented by an especially creative Satan, who woke up in a really foul mood.
Yeah. I guess that surprised nobody.
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arse
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I think, on balance, taking everything into consideration, weighing up all the pros and cons... I think I'm glad the murdering, scumbag, fascist thug is dead.
I hope he died screaming agony with the images of his victims tormenting him mercilessly.
It's things like this that makes me regret my universalism because I would like to think he's being tormented by an especially creative Satan, who woke up in a really foul mood.
I'm surprised at you deano. I really thought you were into violence as a means of getting your own way.
Looks like you're being choosy about who can use these methods.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I think, on balance, taking everything into consideration, weighing up all the pros and cons... I think I'm glad the murdering, scumbag, fascist thug is dead.
I hope he died screaming agony with the images of his victims tormenting him mercilessly.
It's things like this that makes me regret my universalism because I would like to think he's being tormented by an especially creative Satan, who woke up in a really foul mood.
Your projection does you credit, you can have the job.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I think, on balance, taking everything into consideration, weighing up all the pros and cons... I think I'm glad the murdering, scumbag, fascist thug is dead.
I hope he died screaming agony with the images of his victims tormenting him mercilessly.
It's things like this that makes me regret my universalism because I would like to think he's being tormented by an especially creative Satan, who woke up in a really foul mood.
I'm surprised at you deano. I really thought you were into violence as a means of getting your own way.
Looks like you're being choosy about who can use these methods.
Of course I am. A democratically electeded government, no problem. Unelected gangsters like the PIRA then nope.
The PIRA Army Council and senior leadership ought to have been dealt with in the early 70's by the targetted application of violence, preferably measured out in 7.62mm doses.
We would have had peace 30 years earlier, a less divided community and none of the stomach-churning disgust at watching PIRA thugs like McGuinness walk away scott free.
He ought to have been buried in Milltown years ago with the case still unsolved.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Of course I am. A democratically electeded government, no problem. Unelected gangsters like the PIRA then nope.
Right. So those brave members of the French, German and other resistance groups.... oh never mind, what's the point.
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arse
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Of course I am. A democratically electeded government, no problem. Unelected gangsters like the PIRA then nope.
Right. So those brave members of the French, German and other resistance groups.... oh never mind, what's the point.
Were fighting on behalf of the Allies. That is why they are vindicated. The PIRA were trying to force their ideology on a majority in Northern Ireland who rejected it.
Besides, those resistance groups had no chance of getting what they wanted - German troops to leave their countries - using the instrumentsof democracy. The situation could have been resolved democratically. The route via the ballot .box was never closed off in Nortthern Ireland.
McGuinness And his cronies decided they didn't want to use the ballot box. They wanted to rule Northern Ireland in the way they saw fit and it wasn't until they realised they would never get their way that they changed to wanting democracy but onky if they and their mates were let off from the crimes they had committed.
Your linking the PIRA to those resistance groups does those resistance fighters who fought for the Allies a diservice and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The PIRA Army Council and senior leadership ought to have been dealt with in the early 70's by the targetted application of violence, preferably measured out in 7.62mm doses.
We would have had peace 30 years earlier, a less divided community and none of the stomach-churning disgust at watching PIRA thugs like McGuinness walk away scott free.
So a brief period of violence and brutality, maybe a little torture to move things along, after which we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. Sounds vaguely familiar, and not at all likely to result in an escalating cycle of violent reprisals and counter-reprisals. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Were fighting on behalf of the Allies. That is why they are vindicated. The PIRA were trying to force their ideology on a majority in Northern Ireland who rejected it.
Oh please get a history education. Lots of people were fighting the Nazis, not all of them were "fighting for the Allies".
A majority in Germany were supporters of the Nazis, the White Rose movement was a tiny minority trying to force their ideology onto a majority who rejected it.
Or maybe they were trying to resist tyranny with whatever they could get hold of.
quote:
Besides, those resistance groups had no chance of getting what they wanted - German troops to leave their countries - using the instrumentsof democracy. The situation could have been resolved democratically. The route via the ballot .box was never closed off in Nortthern Ireland.
Well that's at least an argument. Try sticking and expanding that one rather than your usual conflating waffle.
quote:
McGuinness And his cronies decided they didn't want to use the ballot box. They wanted to rule Northern Ireland in the way they saw fit and it wasn't until they realised they would never get their way that they changed to wanting democracy but onky if they and their mates were let off from the crimes they had committed.
Your linking the PIRA to those resistance groups does those resistance fighters who fought for the Allies a diservice and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Oh I am, I am so ashamed with myself for attempting to have a discussion regarding the merits of violent resistance with someone who has shown himself unable to comprehend or discuss his points beyond "I/we are right, they are wrong".
I repeat: I'm a pacifist. Do you understand what that means?
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Of course I am. A democratically electeded government, no problem. Unelected gangsters like the PIRA then nope.
Right. So those brave members of the French, German and other resistance groups.... oh never mind, what's the point.
I raised the very same question with someone raging against Palestinians recently. To the same effect.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I think, on balance, taking everything into consideration, weighing up all the pros and cons... I think I'm glad the murdering, scumbag, fascist thug is dead.
I hope he died screaming agony with the images of his victims tormenting him mercilessly.
It's things like this that makes me regret my universalism because I would like to think he's being tormented by an especially creative Satan, who woke up in a really foul mood.
I'm surprised at you deano. I really thought you were into violence as a means of getting your own way.
Looks like you're being choosy about who can use these methods.
Of course I am. A democratically electeded government, no problem. Unelected gangsters like the PIRA then nope.
The PIRA Army Council and senior leadership ought to have been dealt with in the early 70's by the targetted application of violence, preferably measured out in 7.62mm doses.
We would have had peace 30 years earlier, a less divided community and none of the stomach-churning disgust at watching PIRA thugs like McGuinness walk away scott free.
He ought to have been buried in Milltown years ago with the case still unsolved.
Democratically elected my arse. Catholics/Republicans were second-class citizens in many parts of Northern Ireland. Remember how the "troubles" started? As civil rights protests about jobs, housing and gerrymandering. Oh, and the B specials, who were little more than updated Black 'n' Tans.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
There's a thought-provoking collection of responses at the BBC from people who lost relatives to the IRA.
They probably have more right than anyone else to speak on the matter.
None of them give him a "free pass". A few regard him as an inspiring example of change. Most are prepared to give him some credit for his later role. Not all, by any means.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
It's important for Deano to post as he did. It's a reminder of where terrorism has its roots and from where it gets it oxygen for survival. Recognizable in Deano's words is the very spirit that creates and sustains terror.
I'm with others seeing McGuinness as neither saint nor sinner. Growing up in 70's Ulster wasn't going to endear me to any brand of terrorist. And I've some innocent friends and a few relations who were at the sharp end of that business. So I can understand Norman Tebbitt's feelings, as he responds with great and understandable bitterness. It must be pure gall to listen to so many people today eulogising an ex-IRA terrorist.
But one of the shocking tenets of our own Gospel is that people can be transformed into something they didn't used to be.
There was a guy on Radio 4's morning news programme - can't remember his name, sorry - who was asked what he thought had been a turning point for the violent McGuinness. And he said it was when the British security chiefs admitted that they would never be able to defeat the IRA. McGuinness's colleagues were jubilant at this idea, but to him it meant that if the British militia felt itself incapable of bringing the Troubles to a positive conclusion, then what hope did the guerrilla forces of a tiny nation have? He wanted a particular political end to the so-called struggle; not to see an endless warfare on the streets stretching forward interminably across generations. And something about the hopelessness of achieving that by violent means seemed to get through to him.
I have no idea how repentant, if at all, he was for his part in violence. But there is no doubt that without McGuinness there would not be the relatively miraculous level of peace there currently is in Northern Ireland. From a different perspective, Ian Paisley Sr. also travelled a surprisingly unexpected journey to the same point. And once there, both men found a great deal of common ground. Something I still can't quite get over, to be honest. But it happened and McGuinness was part of it.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm surprised at you deano. I really thought you were into violence as a means of getting your own way.
Yes, his own way. He doesn't give a shit about fair or balanced.
quote:
Looks like you're being choosy about who can use these methods.
Massive shocker, that is.
[ 21. March 2017, 15:50: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Damn, Seems I missed what board this was in. Amend that to his posts here do not indicate he gives a shit about fair or balanced.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
As a Protestant who lived with a member of the B Specials I am fully aware how the Catholics/Republicans of Derry were kept 'in their place'. I did campaign for their Civil Rights here at Birmingham University and was very upset when the Civil Rights Movement turned towards violence. Violence never solves any problems - just makes loads more. Another question though. If Martin McGuiness hadn't been the Leader of the Provos, would someone else have been instead. Does one man have the power to start conflicts, or indeed end them ? Is it not a large number of people who are involved in both ?
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
McGuinness was protected by the RCC like many of his comrades.
The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers in the USA. When America saw the fruit of terrorism at first hand donations to the PIRA dried up. The peace process was arguably driven by financial as well as other reasons.
Saint or sinner? Well only McGuinness and God really know but there was little sign of personal repentance. Given the recent amnesty, he could have said something. I suspect - with no evidence other than the knowledge that he was a commander in the PIRA - that there is/was blood on his hands that doesn't seem matched by contrition in the heart.
As to his eternal destination, I leave that to others far better qualified to deal with it.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The route via the ballot .box was never closed off in Northern Ireland.
This is what has always sickened me about all Irish Republican violence from 1916 onwards. Although there wasn't universal suffrage in the early 20th century, no part of Ireland was disenfranchised. This is why comparisons with Mandela are flawed. He was fighting for a completely disenfranchised people. The resistance in France and other countries in WW2 couldn't vote the German occupation away. Violence may have been the only way. I don't accept violence in pursuance of political ends, but it may just be justified when the authorities take your vote away or don't allow you a vote.
The SNP in Scotland has spent 40 years building up its case, and is quite likely to succeed next time around, by democratic means. There was never any excuse for Irish republicanism choosing the path of terrorism instead. Martin McGuinness was a violent thug, personally responsible for many deaths. Neither did he ever repent, at least publicly, for his past. The only thing I would say in his favour is that perhaps only someone of his credentials and reputation within the republican movement, could have brought the violence to an end when he finally embraced peace. He was able to reach out across the divide and work constructively with the Revd Ian Paisley, to the point that the two erstwhile bitter enemies formed quite a strong personal bond.
I'm a universalist, so I don't believe he will rot in eternal torment, but perhaps like all of us, he will have to feel the pain of his actions before he can be free from them.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Also referencing BCP -- God does not desire the death of a sinner but that he turn from his wickedness and live--
MmG did turn from his wickedness, and more importantly he got others to do the same. Maybe it was for cynical reasons when it became clear that more could be achieved through the ballot box than by the bomb or bullet. However this is not for someone like me, who hasn't been directly affected, to the be judge of.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers in the USA. When America saw the fruit of terrorism at first hand donations to the PIRA dried up. The peace process was arguably driven by financial as well as other reasons.
Well other than that the Good Friday agreement was in 1998 and the Twin Towers in 2001, you'd have a great argument. As it is, it is mostly bullshit.
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arse
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Alastair Campbell has some interesting reflections on Martin McGuinness in today's Grauniad.
quote:
At various moments during the years of negotiations that followed, Sinn Féin would frequently be exasperating, and some of us would lose our patience. Tony once suggested we should be a little more sympathetic to their difficulties, pointing out that they were going about this business with a not unreasonable fear that someone might put a bullet in their heads even for talking to us.
Whenever there is a terrorist attack politicians and media will rise as one to call it “a cowardly act”. But that means we should acknowledge the flipside too: what Martin McGuinness and the Sinn Féin leadership did in negotiating for peace took courage.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Two things:-
First
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well other than that the Good Friday agreement was in 1998 and the Twin Towers in 2001, you'd have a great argument. As it is, it is mostly bullshit.
Apart from homing in on your chronological point, Mr Cheesy, Exclamation Mark is onto something very important there. It was only the Twin Towers which did really change both American public opinion and American government assumptions outside the Republican ghettoes on the East Coast.
When Tony Blair first started to come alongside GWB over Iraq, I initially thought he was being rather intelligent - 'Now you know what it's like. Now you can show you really support us in trying to bring peace in Ulster'. It was only as the months went on after that, that got began to dawn on me that 'this chap really believes all this stuff about WMDs and the War on Terror'.
Second there's a mystery. We will never know, how much control the Provo leadership had over some of the outrages perpetrated by its columns. I suspect those at the top have always recognised that it's in their interest that this should remain as ambiguous as possible.
This is no new thing. It's never been clear how far De Valera was personally responsible for the assassination of Michael Collins. Did he issue the command, did he nod and wink, or were they murdering on a jolly of their own? The film version implies guilt to at least the nod and a wink level.
It suits others to believe the best or the worst of the leaders who have been the public face of the Provos.
It's also a fairly amazing thing that Martin McGuinness died naturally, rather than suffered the same fate as Michael Collins. There must have been plenty of people who had both the hatred and the tools to have done that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Having read a book about the struggle for Independence in Southern Ireland, and the bloody retribution heaped on those who sought deals with the British Government, the thought that MmG and Adams were taking a great personal risk had also crossed my mind.
Not that it would have hurt either of them to feel just a little bit of the fear that countless numbers felt over many years because of their past activities.
But maybe now is the time for thoughts of retribution to be laid to rest. NI needs to build it's future rather than rake over the bitterness of it's past.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Two things:-
First
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well other than that the Good Friday agreement was in 1998 and the Twin Towers in 2001, you'd have a great argument. As it is, it is mostly bullshit.
Apart from homing in on your chronological point, Mr Cheesy, Exclamation Mark is onto something very important there. It was only the Twin Towers which did really change both American public opinion and American government assumptions outside the Republican ghettoes on the East Coast.
Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous. The peace process does owe a lot to US government involvement - Clinton promised a peace envoy while campaigning in 1992 and in 1995 named former senator George Mitchell as the US Special Envoy for Northern Ireland, who chaired both a commission on paramilitary disarmament and the all-party peace talks that led to the Belfast Peace Agreement in 1998.
But I'm reasonably sure none of this involved time travel.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I will always remember a spot on the internet of Rev. Ian Paisley speaking during a Northern Ireland Assembly meeting. The topic was about rural libraries in County Down.
Rather poetic to have to look after such day-to-day concerns after such violence.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Exclamation Mark is correct about the twin towers in one very important respect; it dried up Irish American funding and other support to the IRA almost overnight. While much of the dynamic of the shift to negotiation was well underway, the impact of this went far to convincing many in the rank and file that it was time to deal and settle.
Martin McGuinness was not the first terrorist to make their way to the peace table, nor will he be the last. Having lived in Ireland during the 1970s with its slow-motion civil war on the borders, I was quite aware of the significance of his handshake with the Queen.
As far as his current whereabouts, that is in other hands and we can only speculate.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Exclamation Mark is correct about the twin towers in one very important respect; it dried up Irish American funding and other support to the IRA almost overnight.
Evidence? quote:
While much of the dynamic of the shift to negotiation was well underway [snip]
"Underway?" Well, yes, if you mean years of multi-party negotiation had been completed, the agreements had been made between the three governments, and referendums had already been held in NI and RoI, I suppose maybe there were some faint indications before 9/11.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Evidence: Much coverage in US papers, notably NY Times, with which Mr Google can assist the curious, combined with discussions with CSIS and FINTRAC (the foreign exchange folk in Ottawa) contacts. I can't footnote them for you, but IMHO those conversations were really pretty definitive for me.
Until the "hard men" of the Provisionals lost their fervour, it was unlikely that the accords would have lasted. I sat through several failures from the mid-1970s on to believe otherwise. Acquaintance with a few of these folk-- a chilling experience-- convinced me that they would never ever yield, and I was astonished that they did. The collapse of their sources and the inclination of McGuinness et alii to go the peace route appeared to take away their steam.
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Evidence: Much coverage in US papers, notably NY Times, with which Mr Google can assist the curious [snip]
So there's so much evidence that you can't be bothered to offer up even a scrap of it?
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Two things:-
First
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well other than that the Good Friday agreement was in 1998 and the Twin Towers in 2001, you'd have a great argument. As it is, it is mostly bullshit.
Apart from homing in on your chronological point, Mr Cheesy, Exclamation Mark is onto something very important there. It was only the Twin Towers which did really change both American public opinion and American government assumptions outside the Republican ghettoes on the East Coast.
Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous. The peace process does owe a lot to US government involvement - Clinton promised a peace envoy while campaigning in 1992 and in 1995 named former senator George Mitchell as the US Special Envoy for Northern Ireland, who chaired both a commission on paramilitary disarmament and the all-party peace talks that led to the Belfast Peace Agreement in 1998.
But I'm reasonably sure none of this involved time travel.
Good old boys saving the world again? (laughs)
What you say is correct - there were overtures before 2001. The cynic might say that the PIRA were more likely to deal with those of a sympathetic persuasion, which makes the USA's overall stance somewhat less than black and white.
Credit where credit's due. They were part of the process in the same way that the first hand horrors of the twin towers brought home to the fundraisers what terrorism really looked like - a far cry from the populist view of oppressed freedom fighters.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Damn, Seems I missed what board this was in.
You're not the only one. Those incapable of debating this topic without resorting to ad hominem remarks are advised to take them to Hell.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Dave:
quote:
Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous.
It's ridiculous if you understand it in terms of the Twin Towers contributing to the meetings and the document that resulted, but I'm not sure that was what he meant. I was in Belfast during that time and also at the time of the Twin Towers and there was a very tangible sense in Northern Ireland that the Twin Towers event had produced a seismic shift in the minds of people.
We may never know, but it seems that IRA high command were the ones who actually signed the agreement (personally I don;t think it's an unknown at all, but I'm conscious it could spin this thread off into an endless tangent). Meanwhile the IRA tore itself apart. IRA prisoners released under the Good Friday Agreement were quick to proclaim Martin and Gerry as traitors to the cause. The IRA splintered and continued to commit atrocity, and to a lesser degree still does today.But essentially the Good Friday Agreement had to be adopted and embraced by the people, and while there were many at the time of that agreement, who accepted its ideals, there were also many (and not an insignificant number) who felt it was a sell out and who went on supporting and encouraging a terrorist campaign.
The Twin Towers is only one half of the story though and I think it marked the end of the romantic notion of terrorism in Ireland (north and south). In reality the dismantling of that mythical idea of a noble and righteous terrorism occurred after the singing of the Good Friday Agreement and entered its death throes with the unfolding horror that took place at Omagh. The Twin Towers cemented its death on the international stage. No longer could the splinters of the IRA claim to upholding the true and noble cause, because the tide had turned both locally and internationally. People who had been very vocally supportive of terrorism found themselves having to rethink their attitudes in light of speaking of terrorism elsewhere as abhorrent and cowardly. At that time, it really was a seismic shift and it was felt in a very palpable and tangible way. The peace process in those early years was incredibly fragile and brittle, but strangely those events in 9/11 gave it strength and purpose and I think it did help to end that Irish-American romanticism about a rebellious nationalism that was so often supported (perhaps unwittingly if we are to be charitable) through donations to SF and to NORAID at fancy dinners far away from the murky realities of bombs laid under cars and abandoned in supermarkets. After 9/11 giving to such organisations really didn't seem quite so lovely as it had once and perhaps - although again we may never know - that helped in some way to limit the splintered IRA in doing a permanent damage to the continuing peace process.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Thank you Fletcher Christian. You've put all that so much better than I could have done. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
I seem to remember that the Enniskillen War Memorial bombing had already produced a denunciation of the IRA from the Russians.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
McGuiness was an unrepentant murderer who never paid for his crimes in this life. I appreciate that he was an instrumental part of the peace process in NI, but he was also an instrumental part of the violence that preceded it and I don't see how that can be ignored.
Can you imagine Osama Bin Laden being let off scot free - and even celebrated - if he'd simply agreed to disband Al Quaeda and stop planning any more attacks against the West after 9/11? Or Harold Shipman being allowed to continue his medical practice in peace if he promised to go back to curing his patients rather than killing them? Of course not, because their crimes still happened and the shades of their victims still demand justice. So it is - or should have been - with McGuiness.
Ultimately, as a universalist, I hope to see him in Heaven. But I hope the person I meet there is a humble and repentant Martin McGuiness who genuinely regrets the pain he caused to so many people and has completed whatever atonement may have been deemed necessary.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
"Overtures" is a bizarre word for ExclamationMark to use though. The 1990s were the real breakthrough years when there was a huge shift in approach from all sides - both governments and all major NI parties were openly and officially negotiating with Sinn Fein, the IRA and loyalist paramilitary groupings by this stage. Obviously this can have had nothing to do with 9/11.
What made the change? I think it was that by that time those who had been young firebrands in the 1970s were older, sadder and wiser and prepared to look for a way out. Importantly, they were all still dominant figures and able to bring most of their respective constituencies with them. So, for example, there was and is no-one on the Unionist side with remotely the charisma of Paisley senior. So he was able to bring the DUP to the table without being turfed out by those more extreme than him (yes, there are lots).
Similarly with Adams and McGuiness, though surely they must have been at higher risk of a bullet in the head from their own constituency (and surely Paisley ran a small but significant chance of that too).
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Dave:
quote:
Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous.
It's ridiculous if you understand it in terms of the Twin Towers contributing to the meetings and the document that resulted, but I'm not sure that was what he meant. I was in Belfast during that time and also at the time of the Twin Towers and there was a very tangible sense in Northern Ireland that the Twin Towers event had produced a seismic shift in the minds of people.
Are we adding transatlantic telepathy to time travel now? He said "When America saw the fruit of terrorism at first hand donations to the PIRA dried up" - I don't see how being in Belfast is supposed to give you any insight into American views of terrorism or NI.
You evidently have firm opinions on what Irish-Americans think and feel about NI and the IRA, and how their attitudes were affected by 9/11. That's fine, but lots of people have firm opinions that are based mostly on what everyone else in their circle thinks. Is there any particular reason why I should think your opinions are well-founded? Why are you so confident you've got your finger on the pulse of Irish-American sentiment?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I'm not sure "unrepentant" is entirely accurate. The IRA issued an apology in 2001 for killing civilians.
I think in the aftermath of violence, it required murderers like McGuiness and David Ervine to sit down and decide on peace.
An apology was not enough, of course it wasn't. Just like an apology for a misdirected drone that kills civilians is not enough. But they did follow through with their words and they did try to forge peace via consensus.
We can either decry that they took up arms and did disgusting things or celebrate that they stopped and changed.
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arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Dave:
quote:
Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous.
It's ridiculous if you understand it in terms of the Twin Towers contributing to the meetings and the document that resulted, but I'm not sure that was what he meant. I was in Belfast during that time and also at the time of the Twin Towers and there was a very tangible sense in Northern Ireland that the Twin Towers event had produced a seismic shift in the minds of people.
Are we adding transatlantic telepathy to time travel now? He said "When America saw the fruit of terrorism at first hand donations to the PIRA dried up" - I don't see how being in Belfast is supposed to give you any insight into American views of terrorism or NI.
You evidently have firm opinions on what Irish-Americans think and feel about NI and the IRA, and how their attitudes were affected by 9/11. That's fine, but lots of people have firm opinions that are based mostly on what everyone else in their circle thinks. Is there any particular reason why I should think your opinions are well-founded? Why are you so confident you've got your finger on the pulse of Irish-American sentiment?
This is a widespread problem with these discussions. My memory is that the early civil rights' protests were attacked by the RUC, and also the B-specials. The story goes on, that the RUC wrecked houses in nationalist areas, and therefore, that defensive measures were called for.
You might call this the standard narrative in nationalist areas. But I wasn't there, so I can't vouch for it.
I find this a real problem, as there is also a lot of mythology that goes on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Dave:
quote:
Are we adding transatlantic telepathy to time travel now?
What precisely about this conversation lit a fire under you?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I remember the British Army being sent into Northern Ireland by Harold Wilson in 1969 to protect the Catholics who were being attacked by Protestants, and remember clearly a row of Catholic Houses on Fire after such an attack. It was the Catholics who were subject to an appalling system of Apartheid in Jobs, Housing and Voting Rights in those days. When the IRA started there was always a lot of tacit support for them in the Catholic Community.
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure "unrepentant" is entirely accurate. The IRA issued an apology in 2001 for killing civilians.
I think in the aftermath of violence, it required murderers like McGuiness and David Ervine to sit down and decide on peace.
An apology was not enough, of course it wasn't. Just like an apology for a misdirected drone that kills civilians is not enough. But they did follow through with their words and they did try to forge peace via consensus.
We can either decry that they took up arms and did disgusting things or celebrate that they stopped and changed.
Can we not do both? In fact isn't it quite important that we do both?
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