|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Martin McGuiness - Saint or Sinner ?
|
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
|
Posted
The Civil Rights Movement to bring justice to the Catholic Community was formed in Belfast on 9 April 1967. The Christian Peace Group - the Corrymeela Community - was founded in 1965 by Ray Davey. The UVF (Protestant Paramilataries)declared War on the IRA and fired the first shots in carried out three attacks on Catholics in Belfast (May 1968). Upto this point the IRA had not fired a gun) I give these facts to show
1. There was a Peace Movement to redress the iniquities of the Catholics, and therefore violence didn't need to be shown.
2. It was the Protestant Militaries who killed the first people. The Protestant Police did attack Civil Rights Marches both in Derry and Belfast.
3. It could be said that the Catholics through the IRA were only defending themselves at first.
The British Army was sent to protect Catholic Areas but after 6 months started to become the Targets. From this point Martin McGuiness took an active role in the Violence. There was no need. The British Government was on the Catholics side and there was a peaceful alternative.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Just going back to the BNP analogy, some of the loyalists seem rather like them, and they were also given an amnesty.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Heavens, please don't let this thread turn into a debate about who started the violence in Northern Ireland.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
The Civil Rights Movement to bring justice to the Catholic Community was formed in Belfast on 9 April 1967. The Christian Peace Group - the Corrymeela Community - was founded in 1965 by Ray Davey. The UVF (Protestant Paramilataries)declared War on the IRA and fired the first shots in carried out three attacks on Catholics in Belfast (May 1968). Upto this point the IRA had not fired a gun) I give these facts to show
1. There was a Peace Movement to redress the iniquities of the Catholics, and therefore violence didn't need to be shown.
2. It was the Protestant Militaries who killed the first people. The Protestant Police did attack Civil Rights Marches both in Derry and Belfast.
3. It could be said that the Catholics through the IRA were only defending themselves at first.
The British Army was sent to protect Catholic Areas but after 6 months started to become the Targets. From this point Martin McGuiness took an active role in the Violence. There was no need. The British Government was on the Catholics side and there was a peaceful alternative.
Yes, that's where I lose the thread. I remember the argument that the IRA initially were a a defensive line against attacks by police and loyalist gangs. And also the story that the army were at first greeted warmly, cups of tea, and so on.
But I can't remember at what point this turned to hostility. Obviously, Bloody Sunday was a turning point. But apart from that, I don't know. The history books say that 'relations soured' with the army, as raids on houses increased, and there were allegations of army killings and collusion with loyalists. Of course, internment was a big mistake, people said that there were queues to join the Provisionals in broad daylight in the street, maybe this is another legend.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
One unanswered question from the Troubles is why Gerry and Martin weren't shot by the Protestant Paramilitaries (the UVF). It would have been easy to do. The one thing that died a long time ago in N.I. was 'Truth'.
And lo! there was this... Admittedly, not UVF, but UDA.
I remember this very well, Garden Hermit, because I recall everyone at the time laughing themselves silly at the thought that the Prod paras were so hopeless, they couldn't even kill a Shinner at point-blank range! It was 'accepted fact' that while the Republicans were well trained (thank you, Libya), well financed (thank you, America) and well protected (thank you, Rome), the poor bloody Prods were as effective in their campaigns as a chocolate teapot. So went the story.
Not entirely true, of course. But there was across the Protestant population that day a universal rolling of the eyes, when the news report came out about the botched assassination attempt; as much as to say, 'yep, par for the course, that!'
--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, that's where I lose the thread. I remember the argument that the IRA initially were a a defensive line against attacks by police and loyalist gangs. And also the story that the army were at first greeted warmly, cups of tea, and so on.
I wouldn't challenge this view too strongly. But only to remind us, that the IRA - originally the Irish Republican Brethren - began its campaign for Irish independence in the late 18th century, and at no stage ever reneged on its campaign aim to 'free' all of Ireland's counties, including The Six Counties in The North.
In its earliest days it was supported by - or at least had allied interests with - many Protestants who wanted independence for Ireland, and were against Partition; including some sections of the Presbyterian Church. In fact, one IRB hero, Sam Maguire, who was also responsible for introducing Michael Collins to the organization, was a Republican Church of Ireland man from County Cork.
By the 1960s, things had died down a little too much for some of the boys in the RA, and needless to say a British army 'invading' The Six Counties - on the top of the Civil unrest - was just the gift they wanted to get up and running again, and firing on all cylinders. What alternative there could've been, I don't know. Very messy. But political opportunism has never been too far away from whatever so-called principles the IRA ever affected to espouse.
--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Very good posts, Anselmina, and by Garden Hermit. Very informative.
Of course, you could say that the Brits never miss an opportunity to fuck up big time, but maybe that is another legend.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
|
Posted
The best bit I can find on the start of the IRA Violence is
http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/DM01_Outline_Answer.pdf
However that still doesn't really answer the question as to why the IRA turned on the Army, - although Catholics/Republicans had for many years been brought up on a diet of disliking the 'British', - particularly its Government and Army. Maybe only McGuiness knew the real answer to all that.
The importance of establishing the cause of the Conflict does have a bearing on why McGuiness got involved. If he saw his role as 'defending' his Neighbours he can be understood in a more positive light; but if he saw an 'opportunity' to unite the North with the South his legacy seems much more tarnished.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
I think this is a somewhat modern view of things that ignores the large number of guilty people who have escaped punishment down the ages (and down to this day). After several generations things have been (mostly) forgotten, and people go on as before.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
One unanswered question from the Troubles is why Gerry and Martin weren't shot by the Protestant Paramilitaries (the UVF). It would have been easy to do. The one thing that died a long time ago in N.I. was 'Truth'.
My father, who had an interest in current affairs, always used to wonder how Ian Paisly managed to endlessly rant in the way he liked to do without ever being plugged by a keen eye and a sniper's rifle.
Things are rarely what they seem in these situations. Innocent folk inevertably make up a far greater proportion of the casualty list than those you might rightly expect to see there.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
My father, who had an interest in current affairs, always used to wonder how Ian Paisly managed to endlessly rant in the way he liked to do without ever being plugged by a keen eye and a sniper's rifle.
ISTR he had a regular spot where he turned up to preach in the open air - I assume that it was felt that making him a martyr would be more harmful than allowing him to continue to rant.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I thought Paisley was out of bounds. It would have led to utter carnage, and the person killing him would be killed, and probably tortured first.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
|
Posted
I had thought that there had been campaigns by the IRA in the 40's and 50's, even before backlash against the Civil Rights movement in the late 60's.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I thought Paisley was out of bounds. It would have led to utter carnage, and the person killing him would be killed, and probably tortured first.
I was often under the impression, from years of news and comment, that the various paramilitary Loyalists were given to greater acts of barbarism than the IRA. But then what did any of us know about what was really going on.
The UK public were constantly fed bias news and mock appeasement in the form of the Birmingham six and the Guildford four. At one time the captured IRA perps were wicked criminals then, after stalemate set in they morphed into Political prisoners.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Maybe only McGuiness knew the real answer to all that.
Unfortunately only McGuiness knew the real answer to many things, answers which he never shared in order to allow bereaved families to get closure. In 2007 the PSNI decided it had enough evidence to question him with regards to the Claudy bombings of of 1972, otherwise known as Bloody Monday in which 9 people, including an 8 year old girl and 2 teenagers, were killed by 3 car bombs. But it was considered too politically sensitive to pursue it. In fact he has taken the answers to many unsolved murders to his grave.
I reiterate my universalist belief, that all will be brought to repentance, but I don't believe that forgiveness comes until we've acknowledged and experienced the pain of our own actions. There's no evidence that this cold and vicious killer renounced violence because he regretted it or believed it was wrong. He simply realised that the IRA was a busted flush, and that he would never terrorise the people of Northern Ireland or the British government to capitulate to his demands. In the GFA, he and his conies were successful in obtaining immunity from prosecution for their vile acts. Yet members of the RUC, the PSNI and the British Army were granted no parallel immunity even though they were merely serving their country where they happened to be. Another of Tony Blair's glowing achievements.
We are not God, but why should the State forgive those who neither repent nor confess their sins?
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
We are not God, but why should the State forgive those who neither repent nor confess their sins?
OK, now rephrase this as if you (a) believe you are in a war and (b) don't recognise the legitimacy of the State powers you are fighting.
It isn't as obvious as you make out.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Colin and Wendy Parry, parents who lost a son to an IRA bomb in Warrington said that they could never forgive the IRA for killing their son, but interesting also said they got on well with McGuiness on a personal level and often shared a platform with him.
According to the Warrington Guardian, McGuiness said this of them:
quote:
"I admire tremendously Colin and Wendy Parry - I think what they went through was absolutely horrendous and the brand of republicanism that I represent was responsible for that."
"Their hearts were broken by us."
"I think that Colin being prepared to meet with me in Warrington, and Wendy, was a massively courageous act on their part.
They could quite easily have taken the easy way out and said 'we are not going to meet with someone who effectively was a representative of the brand of republicanism that took our son'.
"These are two very, very special people and I think that all of us who are determined to, even against the backdrop of all the setbacks, move the peace process forward - the more people like Colin and Wendy who are prepared to put their head above the parapet, who are prepared to do that, then as those people come forward then the stronger the demand will be from every section of our community that we have to be reconciled as a people - not just the Catholics and Protestants of the North, but the entire community in the North and people in the South as well, but also with the people in this island with the people in Britain. I think the journey we are on is a remarkable journey."
Maybe the reason he never "apologised" was that he recognised the deep pain that people felt was far beyond anything that could be undone by saying sorry.
[ 22. March 2017, 20:02: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
I had thought that there had been campaigns by the IRA in the 40's and 50's, even before backlash against the Civil Rights movement in the late 60's.
Certainly, as Anselmina points out. But these campaigns were very ineffective and so was the organisation in general - almost a joke, really, so that Flanders and Swann could sing in the 1960s...
"He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!" (Song of Patriotic Prejudice)
But by the late 1970s things were very different. A former soldier rather winningly described them as "by far the best terrorists I've encountered - they were really good at what they did..."
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
OK, now rephrase this as if you (a) believe you are in a war and (b) don't recognise the legitimacy of the State powers you are fighting.
Throughout the Troubles we all heard a lot about how the IRA didn't recognise the legitimacy of the State in which they were born and lived. We say them turn their backs on the judges sentencing them in court as recognition of this. And we heard it used as apologetics for their murderous campaign. Like many other people, I don't accept that argument. The Nationalists in Northern Ireland were never disenfranchised. Their problem was that they were a minority and so couldn't get what they wanted. They were neither expelled nor prevented from leaving. No Cyprus type enforced partition. But many times, over a period of 50 years, they refused to participate in civic matters as a protest against recognition of the State.
There were undoubtedly justifiable grievances, inequalities which needed to be redressed and wrongs which needed to be righted. A Civil Rights movement similar to that of Black America in the 1960's was justified. But the bomb and the bullet never. Because nobody took away their vote nor prevented them voting with their feet. But it was part of 20th century Irish Nationalism's obsession with the inclusion of the gun in politics. A good argument could be made against the partition of Ireland in 1922, that it gerrymandered a corner of the island into a Unionist Statelet. But when we look at what De Valera's government did with the 26 counties, can the Unionists be blamed for not wanting to be part of it?
De Valera liked to peddle the myth of an idyllic rural Ireland with "comely maidens dancing at crossroads and the romping of sturdy children" but this was the country where the Church was so much above the law that it presided over the Magdalene Laundries and where unwanted bastards were starved of food and medical attention and buried in mass graves in Tuam. Home rule certainly meant Rome rule back then.
That Martin McGuiness and people like him were raised in a culture which didn't recognise the state they lived in and thought it right to take up arms against it is no reason why we should condone or sympathise with it. It's still murder and treason.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
It should be remembered that many IRA men refused to recognize the courts in the Republic of Ireland as well.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous.
I heard it as being Omagh (which was 98), that shocked things down.
(but not sure if that was a mistaken impression, wiki seems to suggest it followed the GFriA, but preceeded an RIRA ceasefire)
Regardless I think 9/11 did seem to have an effect on European terrorist movements and the associated governments (both in terms of powers they could use, and not wanting to be too stupid).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
To spare quetzalcoatl's blushes - that quote's from me.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
It may be true that Mr McGuinness would have abandoned the peace process if the Twin Towers hadn't happened but to judge him for actions that his alternative self might have committed in a counterfactual parallel universe seems somewhat excessive.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Maybe the reason he never "apologised" was that he recognised the deep pain that people felt was far beyond anything that could be undone by saying sorry. [/QB]
That's a big "maybe" but also a brilliant cop out if you think about it - "I don't need to apologise because nothing will make it better."
You're also assuming something in McGuinness' mind but projecting rather a lot more onto the families of the victims.
Maybe he never apologised because he didn't repent and/or he was too embarrassed to take a further step that might just show a further weakness in the eyes of his comrades. Maybe.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
That's a big "maybe" but also a brilliant cop out if you think about it - "I don't need to apologise because nothing will make it better."
It is only a cop out if you think it is easier and/or better to say sorry or to visit the family of someone who died in an attack you were involved in and listen and appreciate their pain.
A true apology is more than just words. There are some things you can't apologise for, others for which an apology is completely inadequate and some where the only sensible way forward is to seek to reach out across the barricades to those who are hurt and resolve to make the future as better as much as it can possibly be - acknowledging the hurt, the loss, the pain and the terror that you, and the movement you represent, have caused.
quote:
You're also assuming something in McGuinness' mind but projecting rather a lot more onto the families of the victims.
No, I'm listening to the words of victims who have met McGuiness and often say that they found him to be an open person even when they said to his face that the things he had done were unforgivable.
quote:
Maybe he never apologised because he didn't repent and/or he was too embarrassed to take a further step that might just show a further weakness in the eyes of his comrades. Maybe.
If you are too embarrassed or too selfish or too egoistic or too full of your own right-ness, you don't go and meet victims and you don't humble yourself by saying in public that your side caused great hurt and pain to an uninvolved family.
Incidentally, he already showed weakness to some of his comrades by going into power-sharing with the DUP, in visiting a war grave and in shaking the hand of the British monarch.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
No, I'm listening to the words of victims who have met McGuiness and often say that they found him to be an open person even when they said to his face that the things he had done were unforgivable.
I'm sure that Martin McGuiness was humbled by his meeting with Colin and Wendy Parry. I don't know much about the Parrys, whether for example, they have strong Christian conviction. But whatever they have, they are an example to all humanity of Christ's words on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." It tells us much more about Colin and Wendy than it does about Martin.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It tells us much more about Colin and Wendy than it does about Martin.
Well, there we disagree. Burying the hatchet is a two-way process. It requires acceptance from both sides of the Other, even if that meeting begins with frostiness and straight talking.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand?
Ah, so it's an "ends justify the means" argument?
quote:
Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real.
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
So, out of interest, what have you done about drones launched by the USA and the UK which have killed innocents? Do you think the nukes dropped on Japan were justified?
In the event of an invasion by Germany during WW2, do you agree that the correct response of the population would have been to "keep calm and carry on" or to resist in whatever way was available?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
I think this is a somewhat modern view of things that ignores the large number of guilty people who have escaped punishment down the ages (and down to this day). After several generations things have been (mostly) forgotten, and people go on as before.
By that logic we could close down every court and release every prisoner in the country. After all, in several generations they will all be (mostly) forgotten.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
So, out of interest, what have you done about drones launched by the USA and the UK which have killed innocents?
I voted out the UK government that decided following the US into Afghanistan/Iraq was the right thing to do. Unfortunately the subsequent government has continued the drone strikes, but there isn't really a third option to vote for.
quote:
Do you think the nukes dropped on Japan were justified?
The nukes are a grey area because there is an argument that they ultimately saved more lives than they destroyed by persuading Japan to surrender rather than fighting to the last man. In an all-out total war such difficult decisions have to be made, and there is seldom an option that avoids any death at all.
I'll be happy to join you in decrying the firebombing of Dresden as a war crime, though. That served no meaningful tactical or strategic purpose.
quote:
In the event of an invasion by Germany during WW2, do you agree that the correct response of the population would have been to "keep calm and carry on" or to resist in whatever way was available?
In an alternate 2017 where Germany won the war and Britain had been under Nazi rule for the last 60+ years, I would not agree that bombing a shopping centre in Munich was a legitimate means of resistance. Resistance against occupying armed forces is one thing, killing innocent civilians is another.
If the IRA had stuck to military targets I would have had far less of a problem with them.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
I think this is a somewhat modern view of things that ignores the large number of guilty people who have escaped punishment down the ages (and down to this day). After several generations things have been (mostly) forgotten, and people go on as before.
By that logic we could close down every court and release every prisoner in the country. After all, in several generations they will all be (mostly) forgotten.
It isn't necessarily meant to be prescriptive but descriptive, and a response to betjemaniac's contention that "I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end".
The fact is that plenty of the guilty have escaped punishment over the years, and continue to do so in various parts of the world (including the UK)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand?
Ah, so it's an "ends justify the means" argument?
quote:
Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real.
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
Not to you or me, they did to them. They did to the murderer in Westminster yesterday. Who gives a damn about justification stories? Apart from as symptoms? How can we prevent this?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Interesting comparisons with Michael Collins, ruthless killer, politician and negotiator. One big difference was that Collins' career was much shorter - he was killed in 1922, and only two years before, he had organized the killing of the Cairo gang, (and other British agents).
You can probably also cite differences in the political history - Collins was involved in the war of independence, McGuinness was involved in a kind of distorted version of it.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand?
Ah, so it's an "ends justify the means" argument?
Not at all what I said.
quote:
quote:
Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real.
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
Show me where I said the end justifies the means. Show me where I argue that murdering people is acceptable collateral. I'd say that I'd wait, but as I didn't say those things, that would be a bit of forever.
In simple terms: What the IRA did was bad even though their intentions might have been better than their actions. The BNP isn't a good counter example as they are naught but evil.
This is not a zero-sum situation. It would further the discussion if you did not treat it so.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
|
Posted
Really don't want to start discussing the BNP, but they reflected a deep dissatisfaction of many of the ordinary 'working class' who felt they were being left behind and blamed immigration for their troubles. Gordon Brown's dismissal of Mrs Duffy's worries as being 'Racist' is a good example of why people started voting BNP. Luckily for the UK most of that vote went to UKIP and the BNP disappeared overnight. Its always good to look at the problems behind the outward rhetoric. I suggest there are many places in the World where there are a 'significant minority' who think they have been 'left behind' and often have been with Life-long work being replaced by Zero Hour Contracts. (There's enough new themes in there to keep you all busy for a year)
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Show me where I said the end justifies the means. Show me where I argue that murdering people is acceptable collateral. I'd say that I'd wait, but as I didn't say those things, that would be a bit of forever.
You appear to be saying that murdering people is less bad if the people doing it have a cause that you agree with.
quote:
In simple terms: What the IRA did was bad even though their intentions might have been better than their actions. The BNP isn't a good counter example as they are naught but evil.
The point of the counter example was to illustrate that your perception of how bad something is appears to be directly liked to how worthy you think the cause in which is done happens to be. Your answer confirms that.
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that killing innocent civilians by bombing a shopping centre is just as evil and wrong if it's done by the BNP, the IRA, or anyone else.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Show me where I said the end justifies the means. Show me where I argue that murdering people is acceptable collateral. I'd say that I'd wait, but as I didn't say those things, that would be a bit of forever.
You appear to be saying that murdering people is less bad if the people doing it have a cause that you agree with. ...
LilBuddha, it wasn't just Marvin the Martian who picked up the impression that that was what you thought. I did too.
Going back to what Garden Hermit said, feeling left behind by society may explain why some people get involved in the BNP. Nevertheless, if something is wrong being able to explain why some people do it, doesn't excuse it or somehow make it less wrong. Even if 'my wife/husband doesn't understand me' is in that person's case true, doesn't somehow make adultery less treacherous.
[ 24. March 2017, 14:09: Message edited by: Enoch ]
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that killing innocent civilians by bombing a shopping centre is just as evil and wrong if it's done by the BNP, the IRA, or anyone else.
This is my position as well. My "anyone else" includes the military as well.
But none of my statements is about this. What I am saying is that taking McGuinness to trial would not have been worth the lives it likely would have cost.
Ending the violence as peacefully as possible served better than giving everyone what they deserved.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Yes, some people don't seem to understand the peace deal, as if it meant letting off some Republican murderers, and that's it. It also meant letting off loyalist murderers, and of course, the withdrawal of various groups from violence, even the gruesome INLA. Plus of course, shared government. It's a no-brainer, isn't it?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, some people don't seem to understand the peace deal, as if it meant letting off some Republican murderers, and that's it. It also meant letting off loyalist murderers, and of course, the withdrawal of various groups from violence, even the gruesome INLA. Plus of course, shared government. It's a no-brainer, isn't it?
Yes, actually it really is. The Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent (more or less) lasting peace probably represents the best outcome for Ulster that was realistically possible given the appalling state it was in 30 years ago. Yes, the fact that mass murderers were set free or never tried is extremely distasteful, but the alternative was to perpetuate the cycle of violence, "adding yet more darkness to a night already without stars", as MLK put it.
The fact that politics in NI these days is about housing and schools and creating jobs, rather than keeping the Fenians in their place or killing as many Brits as possible, is one of the great good news stories of modern Britain. Whether the settlement will survive Brexit remains to be seen.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Or will survive the death of McGuinness? I wonder if some Unionists are ruing his death, as he had the authority to lead the Republicans, along with Adams, and also rap the knuckles of the nutters, as far as he could. Is there anyone else who can do this?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting comparisons with Michael Collins, ruthless killer, politician and negotiator. One big difference was that Collins' career was much shorter - he was killed in 1922, and only two years before, he had organized the killing of the Cairo gang, (and other British agents).
You can probably also cite differences in the political history - Collins was involved in the war of independence, McGuinness was involved in a kind of distorted version of it.
It is interesting: the Squad were certainly ruthless killers, but did they ever indiscriminately target innocents, as opposed to agents of the British state?
Given de Valera's ruthless elimination of IRA men who threatened the Free State, McGuiness was lucky that he never met the real McCoy.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
|
Posted
A few things - The Border between North and South Ireland has always been regarded as an 'Economic Opportunity' - usually spelt D I S H O N E S T. So when there was a ban on Contraceptives in the South they were obtained from the North, and when British Beef was banned because of BSE it was quickly re-labelled Irish and move across the Border. The British Army couldn't stop cross-border 'trade' and neither can anyone else.
I once made joke about the Rev Iain Paisley. I was scolded by a Catholic who told me he was the best MP/MEP anyone could wish for. As soon as there was a problem - such as a Harbour Wall destroyed in a Storm - he was on the phone to London and Bruxelles and within the Hour the £Millions needed for repair was given
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
|
Posted
That's an important point. Any attempt to impose a hard border will turn Fermanagh into bandit country again. No doubt there are "retired" paramilitaries on both sides who would grasp that
business opportunity with both hands, and where there's smuggling, there are gangs and violence. With McGuiness and Paisley no longer around to impose some discipline, things could get toxic quite quickly.
[ 27. March 2017, 09:21: Message edited by: Rocinante ]
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting comparisons with Michael Collins, ruthless killer, politician and negotiator. One big difference was that Collins' career was much shorter - he was killed in 1922, and only two years before, he had organized the killing of the Cairo gang, (and other British agents).
You can probably also cite differences in the political history - Collins was involved in the war of independence, McGuinness was involved in a kind of distorted version of it.
It is interesting: the Squad were certainly ruthless killers, but did they ever indiscriminately target innocents, as opposed to agents of the British state?
Given de Valera's ruthless elimination of IRA men who threatened the Free State, McGuiness was lucky that he never met the real McCoy.
You are probably right, and many people have described the 'degeneration' of the IRA, into various squalid gangs. Although, these things are very subjective of course, and the treatment of the early civil rights groups by the police was itself squalid.
I don't recollect Collins targeting civilians, although didn't he have a thing about bankers and other financial people, who supported the UK? I mean, he had them killed?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
That's an important point. Any attempt to impose a hard border will turn Fermanagh into bandit country again. No doubt there are "retired" paramilitaries on both sides who would grasp that
business opportunity with both hands, and where there's smuggling, there are gangs and violence. With McGuiness and Paisley no longer around to impose some discipline, things could get toxic quite quickly.
The situation now is pretty dicey, as it looks as if Sinn Fein are trying to get Arlene Foster sacked. But with the shenanigans over Brexit, I think you are right, that McGuinness and Paisley will be missed. Chaos looms.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You are probably right, and many people have described the 'degeneration' of the IRA, into various squalid gangs. Although, these things are very subjective of course, and the treatment of the early civil rights groups by the police was itself squalid.
I don't recollect Collins targeting civilians, although didn't he have a thing about bankers and other financial people, who supported the UK? I mean, he had them killed?
Couldn't find details from a quick google, but wouldn't surprise me: the Squad had a particular beef with the murderers in the Cairo Gang, but targeted other agents of the British state.
That strategic ability's the crucial difference between the original republicans, and the gangsters who took their name: Collins and his comrades were no saints, but were statesmen-in-waiting, learned in Irish history and constitutional matters; McGuinness started out as an ill-educated street thug, tied up with an organization that indiscriminately slaughtered civilians. IRA men who tried similar antics in the Free State were promptly court martialed and shot.
In massacring civilians, and then, with internment, in kidnapping and torturing innocents, the British state was no better, behaving like another gang. Both parties were violent, but worse, incompetently violent.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
That said, McGuinness became a statesman, and his contribution to the peace process was substantial. He deserves full credit for that. It's just a shame that so many have to give their lives for his education.
Guess the old Vulcan proverb applies: only Nixon could go to China.
With chaos threatening the north, in political terms if no other, he'll be sorely missed.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
|
Posted
I read an article in the 'i' newspaper yesterday about McGuiness. Not at all flattering. And also an article in the Corrymeela Christian Peace Community in which he gave an interview which seemed very reasonable. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde came to mind.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
