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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dabbling in other faiths
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
My bereavement counsellor has suggested that I might benefit from attending a meditation session run by the local Buddhist centre. Something about the idea makes me uneasy, but I'm not sure that this unease is really based on anything. I know that in my GLE days I would have thought it Wrong or Dangerous to seek guidance from a different faith community, but again I don't think back then I could have articulated what the danger was.
I'm sure some Shipmates will have more developed ideas about, and perhaps experiences of, engaging with other faiths' practices. So I'm interested to hear your perspectives.
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Buddhism has a lot more and better techniques for dealing with emotional problems like divorce and bereavement than Christianity.
In my experience, the techniques I have read about in books and used on myself have been only helpful to me in difficult situations. Specifically a family problem and a recent bereavement. I have not been to any actual groups of real people though
I don't think it compromises my Christianity or church-going at all.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Dabble in other faiths? Good grief, one was more than enough!
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Buddhist meditation techniques are not inconsistent with Christianity. There are many "Buddhist Christians" (including some priests!) For example, the Buddhist Four Noble Truths are easily adapted to a Christian lifestyle:
(1) There is suffering and pain in life. Nothing un-Christian in that thought. It's true.
(2) Suffering stems from craving or desire for the impermanent. In a Christian sense, clinging to the things of this life rather than clinging to God (the permanent)
(3) This craving or desire for the impermanent can be overcome. Nothing un-Christian about that. This is the hope of faith.
(4) The way to overcome is through a path of mental discipline, rigorous thought, meditation, etc. Taming the inner self, those cravings/desires.
Now, yes, Buddhism believes in such things as reincarnation and other details that Christianity would not buy into. But such beliefs are not required to benefit from the analytical tools the Buddhist perspective offers to detect suffering, the cause of suffering and the method to end the cause of suffering.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
First two questions for Hedgehog and then a more general thought.
I have to admit I know nothing about Buddhist meditation techniques. My experience of other religions is restricted largely to Judaism and Islam. My first question though, to Hedgehog is this. What are the extra benefits that Buddhist meditation techniques can provide that one cannot find somewhere in the wide panoply of Christian traditions?
My second is are the four points you have just listed the Four Noble Truths, or is it just a coincidence that you have listed four points? If they are the Four Noble Truths, yes, they are noble and helpful but I'd query whether they can take anyone quite far enough. They read a bit like Cognitive Behaviour Therapy for the spiritual life.
The more general point is that it strikes me one can glean things from all sorts of places, as long as one is alert enough to spot where one might be being led into the worship of another god, and to stop well before going over that fatal waterfall. Bowing down in the house of Rimmon, lighting a candle or offering incense, actual or metaphorical, whether to Baal, Krishna, a statue of the Buddha or whatever is clearly the fundamental No-No, not just for Christians but also for Jews and Moslems.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What are the extra benefits that Buddhist meditation techniques can provide that one cannot find somewhere in the wide panoply of Christian traditions?
I can't answer this question, but there may be an additional issue of access.
In a given city or town it may well be easier and cheaper to find a Buddhist meditation group or course than it is to find a church that offers and happily publicises forms of Christian meditation. Ignatian techniques, for example, aren't available at the average church, and monastic retreats are expensive, or just inconvenient for busy people.
IME Buddhist spiritualities of well-being are well promoted, and Biddhist techniques of meditation are willingly sold to anyone who's interested. Christianity-for-wellbeing is more problematic when divorced from the religion as a whole, which is probably why it's not very well known, and isn't really packaged and sold for general consumption.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Why would one want to go to a place or engage in a practice when in our faith we are speaking in prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ who knows and understands all that we are and experience.
I'd rather not empty my mind but speak to a loving Friend.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
I'll attempt to answer Enoch's questions:
1) Buddhists tend to be better at thinking about how to teach the practical details of practices. Whatever your local buddhist meditation group does is likely to be essentially identical to a practice which some contemplative saint or other has advocated, and essentially identical to what happens at some local 'christian mediation', 'centring prayer' or similar. However the teaching of what to do is very likely to be clearer than at the christian meditation group.
2) I would say that Hedgehog's 4 items are somewhat paraphrased or badly translated versions of the 4 noble truths, each of which is interpreted as pointing to a vast body of teaching. So the word translated as 'suffering and pain' is treated as a very technical term, and there will be very many books discussing just exactly what this suffering is. The usual translation of 'a path of...' is 'the eightfold noble path', which in turn leads to endless commentary on what each of its 8 rather vague statements actually means. So they could be treated in isolation as somewhat limited statements, or as pointers into a rather massive literature.
[ 24. March 2017, 14:57: Message edited by: *Leon* ]
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Perhaps the thing to remember is to a void someone with a strong bias. As far as I am aware, good counselling enables the counselled to find their own way.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Enoch, as to the Four Noble Truths those are sort-of-kind-of the four. But not quite. The wild card in the deck is number 4, which, in Buddhism, is a reference to the "Eightfold Path"--the means of achieving the cessation of suffering. And, obviously, I didn't list all eight.
The trouble with discussing Buddhism is that the variety of flavors of Buddhism is immense and it is difficult to say anything about it that some Buddhist branch doesn't disagree with. AFAIK, all Buddhist accept the Four Noble Truths (including the Eightfold Path). But even then I am uncertain how some (such as the Pure Land Buddhists) interpret them.
So, yes, I agree that what I listed, in itself, is probably not enough to take anybody quite far enough spiritually. Buddhism is far more than just the Truths. It is a little like saying that Christian faith is "love God with all your heart and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself." It is true as far as it goes, but there is a lot more to Christianity than that.
As for what extra benefits Buddhist meditation techniques provide that aren't somewhere else in Christian tradition, I am afraid I just do not have the level of knowledge to answer that. There may very well be meditation practices in Christian tradition that do the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me. There is a certain amount of overlap in these things.
I am reminded of a person who asked me whether the Winnie-the-Pooh stories were actually pushing Taoist faith (apparently with the concern that exposing her children to Pooh might harm their souls). I explained to her that a writer, Benjamin Hoff, wrote a book using examples from the Pooh stories to explain certain Taoist beliefs. But that did not mean that A.A. Milne was spreading Taoism. It is just that the Pooh stories, with their emphasis on kindness and friendship and helping others and avoiding judging others, tends to parallel basic principles that most faiths would agree to. The same is true here. Obviously, as you say, if it gets to the point of offering incense to a statue of Buddha, then there is a problem. But if it stays at the level of concerned people helping a person in suffering to overcome his or her pain, then many faiths can find common ground there.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
I missed my edit window. Otherwise, I would have added:
"In other words, what *Leon* said." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interestingly, a Buddhist monk I know has very little patience with Christians who dabble in Buddhism. He believes they should mine the riches of their own tradition and apply themselves to that wholeheartedly.
Of course, there are some similarities when it comes to the 'techniques' and mechanics - contemplation, meditation ...
But it's the object of that prayer or meditation that is the key point.
Hindus fast, Muslims fast, many Christian traditions practice fasting. The issue isn't the practice so much as the object of the practice.
Sure, we can learn from Buddhists and others, but to my mind there is something cold and impersonal at the heart of it because they don't have a concept of a 'personal' God. And before anyone accuses me of a 'Jesus is my boyfriend / best mate' approach, I've heard Jewish people make the same observation.
God is always personal. God is not an 'it' or a kind of electrical faith-force.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I started doing Zen about 30 years ago, and it brought me back to Christianity for a long time. Eventually, I left, but not because of Zen, but then this has few beliefs.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
I always found what IngoB had to say around the subject of Buddhist meditation interesting, as for example on this thread:
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I did try some (presumably Christian) meditation for a while, but I didn't do very well with it. I didn't know what I was doing, TBH. I was taken along to a group, but noone ever said anything or chatted afterwards, so I didn't learn from other people's experiences or knowledge.
Regarding Mudfrog's comment, though, I think the problem with prayer, is that in most churches it's very much taken for granted as a Christian practice, so there's very little guidance as to how to pray for particular psychological (or other) benefits. There are books you can buy or workshops you can do, etc., but church leaders in general don't really care to emphasise or teach prayer disciplines or techniques. Prayer as a flexible tool that can be focused on specific outcomes isn't part of church culture in most cases.
I think this is a great shame. It seems that many churches have a way of distancing themselves from a number of deeply spiritual practices. The result may be that it's actually easier to be 'spiritual' in private - or to access certain communal spiritual practices outside the church.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I always found what IngoB had to say around the subject of Buddhist meditation interesting, as for example on this thread:
Yes, his comments were very interesting. I've met people in Zen who experienced a 'presence', or a watcher, or Another, and it is possible to move into theism from this. In fact, one of my friends had a vision of Christ on a Zen retreat, and like me, returned to Christianity. But of course, others don't experience this; some go into massive emptiness, others into massive satori, which is really non-dualism. I don't think there is any particular outcome. I think I was on a high for about 30 years, and then gradually came down. Here I am, with no particular place to go.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
There is indeed a lot of wisdom in other faiths and it helps to broaden one's mind if one finds out about what has made them stay the test of time and make the same powerful impression on some people that Christianity has made on others.
It's like learning another language. A person who speaks another language understands his own better.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
But I would still want to say this: Christianity is not a technique, it's a person.
One can quite rightly use techniques wherever you can access them, but Christianity is not a counselling programme, a meditation practice, not a therapy. Christianity is focussed upon Jesus.
With that in mind, I would only want to seek out those disciplines that bring me to him. There are many, many Christian prayer disciplines and spiritual 'mindfulness' approaches to prayer.
I would suggest looking for these rather than ignoring Jesus.
Praise the Lord, my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
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Praise the Lord, my soul,
and forget not all his benefits—
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who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
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who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
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who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
If you want to meditate but are wary of buddhism then it might be worth exploring Christian meditation:
http://wccm.org
I tended to fall asleep but YMMV.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
One can quite rightly use techniques wherever you can access them, but Christianity is not a counselling programme, a meditation practice, not a therapy. Christianity is focussed upon Jesus.
With that in mind, I would only want to seek out those disciplines that bring me to him. There are many, many Christian prayer disciplines and spiritual 'mindfulness' approaches to prayer.
I would suggest looking for these rather than ignoring Jesus.
Rufiki says he was advised to participate in a session that the counsellor knew was available, IOW to undertake some kind of supported activity, not just to go home and read a book of spiritual exercises and work things out for himself.
I assume that he's already saying his prayers, if he's a Christian. I also assume he's spoken to his own pastor or wise church friends for advice on this issue; that's what they're there for. The fact that these sources of help haven't led to the resolution of his problem suggests that something more is needed.
Christian counselling or meditation sessions need to be more widespread, better advertised and easier to access. And cheaper. Otherwise, the Buddhists might well capture the market for supported meditation sessions, even among Christians.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As the Second Vatican Council said, "There is a lot of wisdom in other faiths and it is also easy to make typos, such as 'Copuncil' for Council, for instance ..."
On the points Mudfrog raises, well yes, for sure ... and I suspect one of the reasons that Buddhist meditative techniques are often recommended in secular contexts is precisely because it is easier to 'isolate' the techniques from their original context and to deploy them as a form of therapy.
I suspect that's what lay behind the objectsion s of the Buddhist monk I mentioned. He was very much of the view that if one were a devotee of whatever religion or philosophy one espoused, then one should seek to explore it to the nth degree.
So, if you were a Christian you should strive to be the best possible Christian you can be and to explore the spiritual riches of your own tradition. He had no problem with people studying Buddhism from an academic standpoint - but as far as non-Buddhists exploring the spiritual aspects of Buddhism or Christians seeking to 'bolt-on' a few barely apprehended Buddhist practices to their own spirituality, he was very opposed to that. He felt that it was like comparing apples and oranges - you aren't comparing like with like.
I'd feel very uncomfortable if anyone tried to 'package' elements of Christianity as some kind of self-help therapy. It does happen, though, but it's rarely flagged up as such. Some of the extreme health-wealth Prosperity Gospel stuff topples over into self-help 'visualisation' and mind-over-matter practices ...
I'm sure that some of the practices of the medieval Christian mystics and things like lectio divina and Ignatian meditation have also been abused at times.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry to double-post but I think SvitlanaV2 is onto something. I was discussing this very issue with my brother-in-law the other week.
He's very much into contemplative prayer and is a trained Christian counsellor - not that this is his job. He's quite positive about mindfulness and the current recommendations of alternative therapies in health-care and counselling.
He currently attends a Methodist church, but has a background in Pentecostalism and neo-Pentecostalism.
Anyway, he was wondering aloud why so few people on some kind of spiritual quest aren't drawn towards the more contemplative aspects of the Anglican and Catholic traditions.
One might have thought that with the zeitgeist being what it is, then there might be some kind of 'connection' at the very least ...
However, people seem more willing to look at Buddhism and other Eastern religious practices as the default option ...
This may be down to exotic appeal to a certain extent, or else a reaction against 'organised religion' and historical Christianity.
Whatever the case, people largely seem blithely unaware that there is a strong meditative and contemplative tradition within Christianity as a whole.
I'm not saying we should attempt to 'market' and 'package' these things in some kind of self-help therapeutic way ... 'You've tried mindfulness, now try this ...'
But there does seem to be some kind of barrier to people realising that these things are even available within the Christian faith.
It could be down to cost, as SvitlanaV2 suggests - few people are going to sign themselves into a monastery for a retreat unless they have some kind of prior faith-engagement. They are more likely to join a gym or go to a Spa.
It could be down to a whole range of things.
But again, as Mudfrog rightly warns, we shouldn't reduce any of this down to 'techniques' and forms of therapy.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I read a very interesting article a while ago about an Anglican clergyman who bravely decided to take a stall at a New Age wellbeing fair (not in order to preach against New Age spirituality!). After observing and talking to a range of people there he reflected on the appeal of that kind of spirituality for people with certain needs.
He also compared the participants in this event with Christian worshippers, and New Age attitudes towards healing with those you might find in church. (There was no particular focus on Buddhism, although it seems that aspects of 'popular' Buddhism slot into the New Age world.)
I think I've just found the article. It offers food for thought.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
I go to the local bhuddist meditations. There's a lot I don't like about it - the teacher for example. I don't feel welcomed or any sense of belonging but that may well be me and a degree of social anxiety.
We have reference to Bhudda and we sing a song of praise to bhudda but that's all. I've been learning about being happy or how to be happy. And whilst I am not sure i agree with what is being taught all of the time, there is a wisdom adn richness and it's likely I'm far too selfish.
The meditations well - why not just them. I find they give me a break from myself. I find it's the only way I sit in quietness and just let go of my thoughts. I'm sure it's present in other religions but I don't care to try them.
The Bhuddists seem to be promoting mindfulness quite a lot which is helpful.
The headspace meditation is a good app - lots of guided meditations.
Posts: 1885 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But I would still want to say this: Christianity is not a technique, it's a person.
One can quite rightly use techniques wherever you can access them, but Christianity is not a counselling programme, a meditation practice, not a therapy. Christianity is focussed upon Jesus.
With that in mind, I would only want to seek out those disciplines that bring me to him. There are many, many Christian prayer disciplines and spiritual 'mindfulness' approaches to prayer.
I would suggest looking for these rather than ignoring Jesus.
I think we may be getting into the "Jesus and ...." issue. I might gently counter in the negative way re Jesus and meditation with Jesus and liturgy, or Jesus and hymns. I might further counter positively with Jesus and the sweat lodge, and Jesus and sweet grass, both of which take aspects of prairie Cree and Saulteaux culture and make Christianity something that can be approached by people with limited old world traditions.
Thus, I think there's a need to split between other religious traditions on one side, and things from other traditions (religious and cultural) which promote the Jesus-centred religion as you state.
FWIW, the sweat lodge means a hut made of small trees bent over (not broken) so the tops can be anchored to the ground, then covered with traditionally hides, today tarps. There is a central hole about 12" deep in the middle. The participants circle the hole and then someone from outside delivers red hot rocks into the hole. The rocks get sage and juniper sprinkled on them (like incense), and then sprinkles of water from a bundle of branches dipped into water. The process is repeated 4 times. It is accompanied by singing and praying. I have participated in sweats with some indigenous Anglican clergy and others. No boundaries are placed between the people re faith tradition. Typically the heat, smoke and steam cause enough physical suffering to feel some pain, and for some to have visions cum hallucinations. I know I did.
Depending on the individual, this may be Jesus centred or something else. The same way, I'd think someone could meditate on Jesus or based on Buddhist principles. My take is that often religious traditions want to "own" certain ways of approaching God, and we don't have to accept what they say.
[ 24. March 2017, 18:50: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
I became deeply involved in a contemplative forum a few years ago, which was an attempt to find an intelligent and integrated Christian response to precisely the stirrings identified.
For my own part, my faith is in any case strongly rooted in the incarnation and the sacraments, and in the mystical tradition. As such, my starting point is that God's purpose in prospering the Christian faith is precisely to promote the wellness and wholeness of God's beloved creation, and to enjoy our living full, abundant lives.
As such, I don't see that God opposes anything that leads to human flourishing, however elaborated. The requirements of our own integrity, and what such tourism says about our own faith are, of course, different things.
You may be surprised by what I'm about to say. I became passionately convinced that Christianity has a perfect valid, authentic and sufficient contemplative tradition which is a Christian's most appropriate route to the experiences which are being imported from outside sources.
Aside from my own experiences and conclusions, I was much influenced by the experiences of a former monk who is a friend of mine, who spent five years learning Buddhist meditation techniques from a Buddhist. He found, however, that the release, relief and nourishment found when he stopped staring at the wall, which was literally the basis of the technique he was learning, and started meditating within his own tradition, was enormous, and met a hunger which he found had developed over the entire time he had been learning the Buddhist technique. Both sides went into that process with the utmost good faith (as it were), but the outcome was nonetheless as described.
Christianity, in its different versions, creates very particular internal configurations in its followers, which I do not believe that external parties are well-equipped to nourish.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
Thanks all for your thoughtful replies.
My own faith fell apart a few years ago so I am not currently a member of a church. However part of me still believes and Christianity remains a large part of my background, so when questions of spirituality come up I instinctively view them from a Christian perspective.
The meditation was recommended as a way to help manage anxiety. The Buddhist centre advertises it as helpful for various aspects of mental health, and specifically states they don't expect all participants to be Buddhist. I'm looking at half-hour sessions rather than multi-day programs!
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
RE: Beenster's comment, quote:
We have reference to Bhudda and we sing a song of praise to bhudda but that's all.
See, I would be running for the exit as soon as any song to Buddha was started. I rarely agree with Mudfrog but on this subject, I am in complete solidarity. While I can appreciate the wise words of other humans from other faith traditions, why settle for just a human perspective when, with Jesus, one gets God AND man?! And if you are struggling with the concept of Jesus being both God and man, just talk to God as God. Skip the humanity of God if you can't grasp it; although I would suggest you work that out sooner than later because that's the appeal of following Jesus. YMMV. I struggled with this for decades, so I know how difficult that faith journey is.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
As I see it, if you go to a Buddhist group to learn meditation techniques, that's not dabbling in Buddhism. But if you're committed to one faith and you go to a service/meeting/whatever in another just to see what it's like - that's at best seeking out a truth inherent in another teaching, at worst it's being a tourist on the 10 European countries in 15 days variety.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - I get that rufiki. I can understand why someone might recommend Buddhist meditation techniques - rather than Buddhism per se - as a means of handling anxiety. If the counsellor is aware of your faith struggles and that you are estranged from church-life for whatever reason, then I can understand why they might offer an alternative that draws from another faith tradition.
A psychologist I know tells me that the default option these days is to recommend forms of spirituality to those clients/patients who have some kind of faith position. Time was when that would have been seen part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
She tells me that whereas at one time extreme Pentecostals or extreme Jehovah's Witnesses - members of both groups tended to be among those most often referred to psychologists for help - would have been steered away from faith altogether, the prevailing wisdom these days is to direct them to a 'milder' expression of faith.
So, in the instance of a Pentecostal whose Pentecostalism in and of itself wasn't the 'cause' of their psychological problems but which certainly didn't help - the approach would be to direct them towards a Methodist church or some form of less full-on nonconformist setting.
I would imagine, rufiki, that had you not had some kind of crisis of faith then the counsellor might have referred you to some form of Christian meditation as a way of dealing with anxiety - rather than something from outside the Christian tradition.
These days, it seems to me, counsellors and health professional seem to direct people to anything they feel may be of help. My wife has cancer and she has been offered all sorts of alternative therapies alongside the conventional medical approach - including raiku, with the proviso that the health professionals don't consider it to have any beneficial effect whatsoever other than to make people feel more relaxed ...
There are hypnotherapies for those who want it and all sorts of things besides.
I don't have an issue with any of that unless people seize upon it as some kind of alternative to conventional medicine and stop taking their medication.
When it comes to dealing with grief and anxiety, that's a different issue and I don't see how exploring Buddhist meditation techniques could do any harm - but I agree with those who say that a line would be crossed if the sessions involved hymns of praise to the Buddha or lighting incense before an icon of the Buddha and so on.
Obviously, it's down to you whether you accept the offer or not. For my own part - and I'm not trying to lay this on you - I'd prefer to explore meditation techniques from within my own faith tradition - Christianity - rather than borrowing other people's.
There are also mindfulness techniques that strike me as being completely 'neutral' and which could be used by people of any faith tradition or none.
Just my two-'pennorth.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
There's definitely a tension in the Golden rule here, that I think doesn't help (basically do you privilege what you think/'know' as true, particularly when dealing with those truths).
That is we'd quite happily expect the Buddists come to the Christian equivalent* (and just join in a little prayer, and...).**
I'm not sure what the right answer is, either extreme seems ugly, and violates Jesus's (and Paul's) teaching in every way.
*or even just a town council meeting.
(and of course trigger issues differ, so things are even more confusing)
**My non-solution to this was to keep the Hara Krishnu 'Jack chickesque' tract sealed in a bag till I gave up trying to come up with an answer (I don't recommend it).
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Rufiki says he was advised to participate in a session that the counsellor knew was available, IOW to undertake some kind of supported activity, not just to go home and read a book of spiritual exercises and work things out for himself.
Yes, I agree with you. In this context Mudfrog's position is in danger of coming across as incredibly glib.
The logical extension of it is that Christians don't actually need to find wisdom beyond that which is available in their own circles, or just beyond sitting down on their own with their Bible and praying.
[and I'm coming from a mostly conservative theological bent.]
There are going to be issues around access to other Christian practices, both prosaically logistic (distance etc) and also social (some of them can be exclusive either intentionally or unintentionally).
I'd have the same cautions about actual 'worship', and caveats around the problems of discernment in the moment as well as concerns about some kind of orientalism in operation.
I do think Gamaliel's prescription in the previous post has a lot of merit - assuming it's available.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
I use a religion-neutral meditation and mindfulness app on my phone - totally free of any religious input, it simply guides you through the techniques of mindfulness. It is a useful thing for many anxiety sufferers including myself and has nothing to do with not talking to Jesus enough ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) However I wouldn't want or feel the need for a specifically Buddhist version - Buddhists don't own meditation or mindfulness. Lectio divina uses mindfulness techniques, for instance.
I use the Calm app but there are many out there if you have a smartphone or tablet. Lectio divina may also be a good thing to try.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
My bereavement counsellor has suggested that I might benefit from attending a meditation session run by the local Buddhist centre. Something about the idea makes me uneasy, but I'm not sure that this unease is really based on anything.
It may be that you choose to explore why you have that feeling at some point in the future. Having said that, I think conscience should be your guide, and if you feel uneasy about something you should perhaps trust that feeling, and perhaps some of the neutral approaches above or the different-christian-tradition approach that Gamaliel outlines are more appropriate for you.
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
I must admit to feeling rather disturbed that a professional counsellor would recommend that a client go and 'dabble' in assorted beliefs. In my experience it is not up to the counsellor to tell the client what to do but rather to listen and help the person to reach personal decisions without undue influence from the professional when the client is vulnerable. I would wonder about the qualifications of the counsellor - are they just a well meaning amateur?
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
As so often, I agree with what Gamaliel has said, and he's put it better than I could. I also agree with The Fifth Mary and Mudfrog.
The key question strikes me as not the technique, but what direction your seeking to point it in. For a Christian, does it help you 'to see him more clearly, love him more dearly, follow him more nearly' or is it getting in the way?
If you are just looking for something that will clear the decks, does it? Or does it interpose something else? Or does that eventually draw one to the conclusion that just clearing the decks, without it taking you somewhere better, isn't enough?
Going back to my earlier post, I don't see how one can avoid concluding that anything that includes a song to Buddha is out of the question for Christians, Jews or Moslems.
No Prophet I think you need to explain why if you think they are all examples of "Jesus and ....", then 'Jesus and meditation', 'Jesus and liturgy', or 'Jesus and hymns' are all negative but 'Jesus and sweat lodge', or 'Jesus and sweet grass' are positive. You haven't explained what 'sweet grass' is about, which leaves me with a suspicion that 'sweet grass' is a euphemism for hashish. But as you describe it, a sweat lodge sounds like 'singing hymns in the sauna'. I can't see what could make that positive but condemn the other three to being negative. And as I'm neither Cree nor Saulteaux, wouldn't it be for me the sort of cultural misappropriation/theft people have been criticising on the Swing low sweet chariot thread?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
Here in the US strictly secular mindfulness meditation classes seem to be popping up everywhere, both for people who just want to learn to meditate and as a part of mental health treatment. I think it may be harder to find outside of bigger cities, though, and I am sure the classes at religious institutions are cheaper than the secular ones. The religious groups often make things cheaper or free but try to get people to become more involved and donate money or buy books, retreats, etc. Of course, there are plenty of Christian groups that do the same.
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Beenster
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# 242
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Posted
Re: the song we sing to Buddha in the group I go, to - it's not mandatory. We are told we can opt out of it if it's not our bag. I don't do Christianity so for me it's not an issue in respect of mixing religions. Out of 1.5hrs, it's the only Bhuddist moment - it probably takes 2 - 3 mins. We are also meant to stand and bow to the teacher when she arrives and leaves. I don't.
The rest of the time, the focus is on "how to be happy". While the framework works for me, what doesn't is the teacher and I will probably hunt out other groups that teach similar but with teachers I relate to better. For now, it's ok and it does the job and I utterly relax and wind up feeling more connected with myself and more able to cope with the day to day.
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Tobias
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# 18613
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Posted
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
quote:
There are also mindfulness techniques that strike me as being completely 'neutral' and which could be used by people of any faith tradition or none.
And originally posted by stonespring: quote:
Here in the US strictly secular mindfulness meditation classes seem to be popping up everywhere, both for people who just want to learn to meditate and as a part of mental health treatment.
Using these non-religious methods of mindfulness and meditation is the course I would recommend, if it is possible.
Thinking over what (on the one hand) I have learnt from Buddhist writers and teachers, and what (on the other hand) I have read of secular mindfulness techniques and cognitive behavioural therapy, it seems that the latter have incorporated much of what is useful in Buddhism, but without those teachings which would be problematic for people of a different religion or people who don't want 'religion' at all.
Purely in my experience, the non-religious versions do not place as much emphasis as Buddhism does on the practice of thoughts of compassion and lovingkindness - but Christians shouldn't need to be told about that! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
Posts: 269 | From: Terra Australis Incognita | Registered: Jul 2016
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
That makes sense to me, Tobias.
Sadly, though, we need as many reminders as we can get ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tobias:
Purely in my experience, the non-religious versions do not place as much emphasis as Buddhism does on the practice of thoughts of compassion and lovingkindness - but Christians shouldn't need to be told about that!
And that is what makes them utterly inadequate. They become, from what I am told by people who have practiced mindfulness using them, a means of increasing anxiety rather than alleviating it: it's like looking at your roof, testing its load and finding it to be overloaded without having any idea how you might go about lessening the load or indeed strengthening the structure. An account of both is needed before mindfulness is useful: that can be Christian, Buddhist or indeed (of the less materialist kind) humanist, but some account is needed. That's why I believe it to be unhelpful to practice mindfulness in isolation from some kind of faith.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
beenster refers to a teacher who expects his/her class attendees to bow to him/her. I cannot think of any rational reason why s/he would require this. The only excuse I can think of is that s/he has perhaps feelings of inadequacy of some sort.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
beenster refers to a teacher who expects his/her class attendees to bow to him/her. I cannot think of any rational reason why s/he would require this. The only excuse I can think of is that s/he has perhaps feelings of inadequacy of some sort.
More likely it's a ritualised sign of respect derived from the particular culture the teachings come from. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Time was, even in my lifetime, when classes used to stand when the teacher entered the room. That only gradually died out.
You may as well suggest that all Japanese people have some kind of inbuilt need for affirmation because they bow to one another when they greet each other formally.
It's a custom for goodness sake ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Bowing to your teacher is no more a religious act than bowing to a judge when he/she enters the court, standing up when your teacher enters the classroom, or shaking someone's hand. Singing a song to Buddha, though, is.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
beenster refers to a teacher who expects his/her class attendees to bow to him/her. I cannot think of any rational reason why s/he would require this. The only excuse I can think of is that s/he has perhaps feelings of inadequacy of some sort.
Gawd! A simple sign of respect for the office becomes feelings of inadequacy. We would always stand when our teacher entered the classroom; if a class were underway and the Head or Deputy entereed, again we'd stand. Just as we stand when a judge enters or leaves a courtroom, or when clergy enter or leave church.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I read a very interesting article a while ago about an Anglican clergyman who bravely decided to take a stall at a New Age wellbeing fair (not in order to preach against New Age spirituality!). After observing and talking to a range of people there he reflected on the appeal of that kind of spirituality for people with certain needs.
He also compared the participants in this event with Christian worshippers, and New Age attitudes towards healing with those you might find in church. (There was no particular focus on Buddhism, although it seems that aspects of 'popular' Buddhism slot into the New Age world.)
I think I've just found the article. It offers food for thought.
Thanks for this. Very appropriate for the New Age area I live in.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Tobias
Shipmate
# 18613
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Tobias:
Purely in my experience, the non-religious versions do not place as much emphasis as Buddhism does on the practice of thoughts of compassion and lovingkindness - but Christians shouldn't need to be told about that!
And that is what makes them utterly inadequate. They become, from what I am told by people who have practiced mindfulness using them, a means of increasing anxiety rather than alleviating it: it's like looking at your roof, testing its load and finding it to be overloaded without having any idea how you might go about lessening the load or indeed strengthening the structure. An account of both is needed before mindfulness is useful: that can be Christian, Buddhist or indeed (of the less materialist kind) humanist, but some account is needed. That's why I believe it to be unhelpful to practice mindfulness in isolation from some kind of faith.
That's a fair point. I think I did not compose my post as well as I might have done - especially as I did not properly take into account the particulars of rufiki's situation. I'm sorry. The advice I gave may not have been good advice for someone who is not practising a religion.
I was not really meaning to encourage the use of non-religious methods instead of religious methods, or in isolation from religious faith. I was more concerned with the question of what a Christian should do who wanted to find a method of mindfulness practice but who had reservations about "dabbling in other faiths" by using a specifically Buddhist one.
There is a lot of sound and useful psychology that has been developed within Buddhism, but a Christian who wishes to draw on those resources needs to examine them quite critically to avoid anything inconsistent with Christianity. The non-religious methods do not present this particular problem to anything like the same degree. (Though I would not advise anyone to adopt any method completely uncritically!)
The main point I wanted to make was merely that the 'religiously neutral' methods are unlikely to cause any great difficulties to Christians: but indeed I can't vouch for their effects in the absence of religious faith and practice.
[ 27. March 2017, 07:06: Message edited by: Tobias ]
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
Posts: 269 | From: Terra Australis Incognita | Registered: Jul 2016
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tobias:
That's a fair point. I think I did not compose my post as well as I might have done - especially as I did not properly take into account the particulars of rufiki's situation. I'm sorry. The advice I gave may not have been good advice for someone who is not practising a religion.
That's OK. I deliberately left out particulars from the OP because I wanted to encourage fairly general discussion, to get a range of Christian perspectives on other faiths' practices. The discussion needn't be fixed around my situation - this is Purgatory not All Saints after all!
I have also been doing an online mindfulness course, again at the counsellor's suggestion, to help with other issues. It was definitely helpful at first, though I basically gave up at week 3 because I couldn't understand how letting your thoughts and emotions pass without engaging with them is helpful. Perhaps I've misunderstood and need to go back and watch the explanatory video again. I might also check out the Calm app as an alternative (thanks Pomona!)
Gamaliel I have not discussed religion or spirituality at all with the counsellor, though I have mentioned once or twice about having a Christian background/upbringing. Her business card describes herself as "humanist" so I assume she doesn't subscribe to any religion. I think you nail it here:
quote:
These days, it seems to me, counsellors and health professional seem to direct people to anything they feel may be of help.
Over the weeks she has made a variety of suggestions of activities that might help. The only other one with any spiritual connection was yoga, which was suggested for the same reason as mindfulness.
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
It's interesting that in Zen, one's thoughts and feelings can become very intense, and this is difficult to deal with. But generally, the idea is to let them go, and there are various ways of doing this. Just continuing with one's technique is a good one, although it can be agonizing. Wall-sitting can be very ferocious. Well, you learn patience!
But ultimately it tends towards deidentification, the idea that you are shedding the ego-stuff. And then what remains? Ah, emptiness and pain! There is the old Zen story, which I have also heard in a Christian context - when I become enlightened, will I be free from pain? No, you will learn how to truly suffer. Maniacal laughter.
[ 27. March 2017, 13:15: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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