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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Get a 'flu vaccine or if you get ill, do not come to work & no sick leave
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I choose to not get the jab. I've only had flu twice, but both times I got it from the jab.
While, on balance, it's the rational decision to get it done, it's not 100% effective and there is a risk that one can contract the disease from the vaccination. Given my track record (whenever I get the jab, I get the flu; whenever I avoid the jab, I'm fine) I'd rather take the risk of no jab than the risk of getting it from the jab.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
While some 'flu vaccines are effective against some strains of the influenza virus it is very hard for the medical community to predict which strain will be most prevalent in any given period and thus which vaccine is likely to offer most protection.
In any case, none of the 'flu vaccines available currently are 100% effective even against those strains of the virus they are meant to be best at matching,
Bearing that in mind, it is not fair or sensible to say to people that they should not get sick leave if they get the 'flu.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
My wife used to work in a special needs school (private). They used to get all their teachers vaccinated against flu even though they (the school) had to pay. They reckoned it didn't just prevent illness among staff and pupils but saved them the cost of having to source cover staff.
I presume it was "advisory" rather than "compulsory" as it was a very humane school.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
While some 'flu vaccines are effective against some strains of the influenza virus it is very hard for the medical community to predict which strain will be most prevalent in any given period and thus which vaccine is likely to offer most protection.
In any case, none of the 'flu vaccines available currently are 100% effective even against those strains of the virus they are meant to be best at matching,
Bearing that in mind, it is not fair or sensible to say to people that they should not get sick leave if they get the 'flu.
To be fair, that wasn't the policy No Prophet outlined. If they got the jab and got the flu anyway, they're covered:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Staff need to provide documentation they've had the vaccine. If they have symptoms, they are put off work, covered by sick leave if they've had the vaccine, but without sick leave pay if they haven't. I expect at least 3 weeks off work for an ill person, 5 or 6 weeks is well within time frame.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I choose to not get the jab. I've only had flu twice, but both times I got it from the jab.
No you didn't because that is medically impossible. You probably had a cold or some other illness, but not the flu. Misconceptions about flu vaccine from Centre for Disease Control. Additional link: Harvard University which indicates why people might come to a wrong conclusion about flu vaccine and it causing illness.
[ 12. October 2017, 15:22: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I choose to not get the jab. I've only had flu twice, but both times I got it from the jab.
No you didn't because that is medically impossible. You probably had a cold or some other illness, but not the flu. Misconceptions about flu vaccine from Centre for Disease Control. Additional link: Harvard University which indicates why people might come to a wrong conclusion about flu vaccine and it causing illness.
Or you got some other strain of the flu. The vaccine only protects against the 3-4 strains most prevalent in any particular year (and predicting that is a bit tricky I understand). So it's most likely you got another strain. Which isn't to say that the vaccine wasn't effective-- it protected you against the other strains.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
I'm one of those who have to get the flu shot every year because of a medical condition. I also get the pneumonia shot every ten years.
This year, I didn't get the shot at my doctor's office, as usual, I got it at my pharmacy which is in my local grocery store. They were giving a $10 gift card to the store to those who got the shot! Score! Plus, I figure the bribery helped increase the herd immunity!
[ETA clarity]
[ 12. October 2017, 16:21: Message edited by: jedijudy ]
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What no prophet said re not getting flu from the jab! A folk myth...
Re pneumonia jab, I had one last year, and they said it was for life. I'm 66. I wonder what they're actually telling me?
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Oh, look, it's flu hysteria season again. This year's edition of the vaccine is supposed to reduce the risk of infection by 50%. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but I happen to be one of those people who doesn't get sick from the flu. (Yes, we exist.) I resent being pressured every year to get a shot that will do me absolutely no good, AND there's a 50-50 chance it won't do anybody else any good either. And even that is in question:
quote:
•We found the greatest reductions in the risk of death and of pneumonia hospitalization in the period before influenza season, when there should be no true vaccine effect.
•The reductions in risk before influenza season suggest the presence of bias due to preferential receipt of vaccine by relatively healthy seniors on the estimates of influenza vaccine effectiveness observed during influenza season.
Evidence of bias in estimates of influenza vaccine effectiveness in seniors
quote:
Researchers go on to suggest that fears health care workers are putting patients at “great peril” by not getting the flu shot are “exaggerated.”
The report cautions that the findings don’t mean that the flu shot is useless, but rather that the necessary scientific proof behind VOM policies is lacking.
“This does not refute approaches to support voluntary vaccination or more broadly protective practices, such as staying home or masking when acutely ill.”
Why vaccinating nurses might not be that effective
Seeing as the Ontario Nurses' Union defeated the vax-or-mask policy, no prophet ... should probably check with legal or HR before instituting a policy that requires employees to get the vaccine and might includes denying some employees paid sick leave.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This is a little bit older, but states the points: Huff post 2014 article re health care worker resistance to vaccines.
If you don't get the flu vaccine and haven't had the 'flu, you're lucky. May you continue to be lucky. I was on this refusenik page until I got it one year after more than 40 years of not getting the 'flu.
[ 12. October 2017, 17:07: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What no prophet said re not getting flu from the jab! A folk myth...
Re pneumonia jab, I had one last year, and they said it was for life. I'm 66. I wonder what they're actually telling me?
IJ
I see jedijudi says ten years, you have been told once. I was told a booster was needed after five years which will be up early next year. I wonder if we have apples and oranges here in different vaccines against pneumonia or if we have all had the same? I certainly do not know the details of mine. Shingles vaccine is now free down here for over 65. My brother paid nearly $100 a few years ago. I will ask about that one when next seeing doctor.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I've been lucky so far. I'm 51, have spent all my working life in healthcare or working with small children, have never had the flu jab and never had proper flu (nothing more than a heavy cold with a bit of a temperature as far as I recall).
I was due to have the jab at work this Friday, but apparently it's moved both to a day when I don't work and to the office that it's really inconvenient for me to get to...
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
After not getting the flu or even the sniffles for many a year I was in the hopsital on a drip last month.
Not sure this will make me get a jab next year. I used my sick leave, did not turn up to work trying to get through it and so on. A previous employer used to bring a nurse in and I did not get in there; not sure why, I just tend to think its natural and my body will fight it. Once I hit 6-0 I may change my mind.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Many years ago I was sure I had gotten the flu as a result of having been jabbed, so I went several years after that without one. Finally I concluded that it was probably not wise to do so. My employer provided free flu shots to all employees, usually in early November, and so I got one every year after that.
When I turned 65 and retired, Medicare kicked in and my Medicare provider makes flu shots available free of charge. I've gotten one every year since retiring, including this year -- usually in late October or early November, but I've gotten mine already this year.
Other than as noted above, I've never had an adverse reaction, and I haven't gotten the flu either. Colds, yes, some bad, and pneumonia once (after getting a pneumonia shot, would you believe).
Also valley fever (oh, let's not call it acute coccidioidomycosis), but that's transmitted via fungal spores and is not contagious. I'm told that once you've had it, you're immune from then on.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
My oncologist and internist both told me the pneumonia vaccine is good for five years. I believe them, and got another one last year. (And my internist's office just gave it to me automatically with my flu shot.)
If you don't bother to get a flu shot, and you do get the flu (even if you're not symptomatic, which happens), you are really and truly putting others at risk. Please rethink your refusal.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
The pneumonia vaccine protects only against the most common pneumonia germ. There are many other germs which can also cause pneumonia.
Two years ago I caught a germ from my four-year-old grandson. I don't know what he had, but I ended up with pneumonia and severe sepsis.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Pneumonia is, of course, not a disease but a symptom. There is probably a small handful of bugs that cause the vast majority of pneumonia cases. But still the fact remains you can't inoculate against a symptom.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I choose to not get the jab. I've only had flu twice, but both times I got it from the jab.
While, on balance, it's the rational decision to get it done, it's not 100% effective and there is a risk that one can contract the disease from the vaccination. Given my track record (whenever I get the jab, I get the flu; whenever I avoid the jab, I'm fine) I'd rather take the risk of no jab than the risk of getting it from the jab.
I get flu symptoms from the shot. Tried it several times, and it always happened. Timing was always very close. Frankly, was like a full-on case of flu. I know the standard opinion is that you can't get it from the shot, and I also know my repeated experience. So I make a point of saying I get the symptoms. Keeps the doctors happy. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I've got Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS/ CFS/ ME), and we can have problems with vaccinations. (And no, I'm not an anti-vaxer.) So far, I've avoided the pneumonia and shingles vaccines.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
You might want to rethink the shingles vaccine, at least, GK. From the experiences of my father and the mother of a friend, you don't want to take chances with that one.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And if you get shingles on your neck or face, there's a real risk of its spreading to an optic nerve. If you're an at risk person, it's a good idea to have it. Subject to proper medical advice in your particular case of course.
The anti-shingles injections Madame and I had a few years ago were far from cheap, but the security was worth it. I heard the other day that it's now free for over 70s.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Staff need to provide documentation they've had the vaccine. If they have symptoms, they are put off work, covered by sick leave if they've had the vaccine, but without sick leave pay if they haven't. I expect at least 3 weeks off work for an ill person, 5 or 6 weeks is well within time frame.
While encouraging people to get the shot and paying sick leave for them if they get flu anyhow, your policy of not paying sick leave for those who don't get vaccination seems unwise. You're encouraging people who are likely to get the flu to conceal it as long as possible to minimize their unpaid time off.
You probably should check with HR law in your country, but if it's legal, it would be good to factor it into the annual performance review/bonus structure and encourage everyone to take sick leave.
I'm in several high risk categories so I'm usually given an early shot. One year I did tell my doctor that after getting the flu shot, I got flu 3 times. He said that the shot that year covered 4 strains of the common 7 that had popped up.
I work in a very large new office which has trendily packed all the desks together in an open layout, several hundred people and visiting workers from other regions. As a result, last year it just went around and around.
[postscript] I was amused that the posting software reminded me to wash my hands. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 13. October 2017, 02:57: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Rossweisse and Gee D--
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
And if you get shingles on your neck or face, there's a real risk of its spreading to an optic nerve. If you're an at risk person, it's a good idea to have it. Subject to proper medical advice in your particular case of course.
Thanks, both of you. Actually, I had my initial case of shingles some years back. And it hit in and around one eye. It was horrible, and all I could do was huddle in bed and whimper. Fortunately, I got on a good anti-viral soon. My immune system is such that viruses don't necessarily clear out, so doctors and I agreed to keep me on the meds. (Huge dose.) I still occasionally get small outbreaks, but they're manageable.
I know this probably sounds pretty weird. Complicated health situation. Even more fun in real life.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The title of this thread is my office policy.
Must be nice to be king.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I have just seen Lothlorien's post that her brother paid almost $100 for the shingles vaccine. I think her memory must be out - we paid well over $200 each. Maybe not much by US standards, but a lot by those here.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Both amounts are a lot for most people, anywhere.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I am high risk as asthmatic, so get offered both the flu and pneumonia shots. I reacted badly to the flu shot last time I had it, some years ago now: the sore lump in my arm didn't go for months. Knowing how allergenic I am, I refuse the jab because my next reaction is likely to be worse: When I started reacting to wasp stings, first sting was boring, second sting was a huge lump, third sting on my finger made my hand and arm swell to hide all the bones to my elbow; it looked more like a cow's udder and needed hospital treatment. I have never been offered the nasal spray as an alternative.
I don't recommend flu, pneumonia or shingles having had them all, the latter two most recently.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Couple o' thoughts. no..., as an employer it's your responsibility, not the employees'. Make it so. And following on from the UK Chief Medical Officer reporting from Berlin on the antibiotics apocalypse, apparently our NHS doctors are so weak minded that when we go to them demanding antibiotics for a cough, because 0.1% - 1:1000 - or less are bacterial pneumonia (which is inoculable) and amenable to antibiotic therapy if not too far gone, they cave in and give them out like Smarties. According to 'a doctor' on the BBC.
What utter bollocks.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I never had one in England - the NHS only provides them for certain categories of people.
Here in Wales I went for a routine blood test this morning and the nurse offered me one on the spot. I took it of course, I've twice had bad flu at Christmas in recent years.
Baptist Trainfan
It is £12.99 from Boots (your GP will do it for the same amount I suspect and it may well be available elsewhere). As someone who is likely to visit people who have had chemo, people who have had a transplant, the frail elderly etc You really should.
For those in the UK at the time of the last flu panic, the UK did not have enough flu vaccine for everyone and therefore decided to limit it to vulnerable groups until an outbreak. This has not been the case for several years.
Two other things
- The severity with which you get flu can differ hugely. The nearest I have ever got to being hospitalised was due to 'flu but I suspect that I have had it several other times and got rid of it as a nasty cold.
- I got it, but I may not be any more immune than I was before. Sometimes vaccines do not take (it has happened at least twice to me with different vaccines; smallpox and TB).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It is £12.99 from Boots (your GP will do it for the same amount I suspect and it may well be available elsewhere). As someone who is likely to visit people who have had chemo, people who have had a transplant, the frail elderly etc You really should.
You've misunderstood me. The nurse offered to do it, there and then, for free. So I had it done! I wonder if this is because in Wales there are no prescription charges (for anyone)?
In fact our surgery is having a drop-in flu vaccine session this morning.
[ 14. October 2017, 09:18: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Sorry.
Jean
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Martin--
Re anti-biotic resistance and patients' demands:
FWIW, the same thing has been said here in the US for a long time. And that (IIRC) the bacteria adapt to handle the anti-biotic, so that one is less effective. There are only so many kinds of anti-biotics available, and evidently this has happened with so many that there aren't many really effective ones left. That scares the heck out of medical folks, because of possible consequences.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Antibiotic Resistance
For those who have read James Herriot vet books then there is a scene in there where James gives antibiotics for the first time to a herd of cows. It miraculous cures the herd who were otherwise on their way out.
It is that experience of antibiotics as a wonder drug that doctors are dealing with. James Herriot even in writing that knows that the wonder cure no longer happens (he is writing in the 1970s or 1980s reporting events of 1940s and 1950s; so a twenty-year lapse but still about twenty years ago). The folk memory makes them a potent item even when no longer effective and probably enhances placebo effect.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Some have asked if what we habe established is fair and legal. Briefly, we adopted the process and procedure from the health region. It specifies vaccine requirements, certification that it was taken, exclusion from work if symptomatic and has some other things we don't do like requirements for antiviral meds in an outbreak, 14 day waiting period after outbreak if vaccinated after outbreak started. We only require the vaccine.
And no, it's not about being king or controlling. It's just sensible. There is a larger discussion about individual versus group rights. And why vaccination is one of our most important public health responsibilities. Sensitivity to vaccine is obviously legitimate not taking it. Antiviral medication during an outbreak, no one has requested but I think we'd pay for it as it is quite expensive. As a small business we have insured people for non-medicare costs for other things, paid directly and given paid leave when there is reason. Good will and happiness at work is important. It is multilateral.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Bene Gesserit
Shipmate
# 14718
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Posted
Had mine. Eight years or so ago I developed an ongoing condition. My GP, a good and wise man, gleefully put a flu jab in one of my arms and a pneumococcus jab in the other, and advised me to get the flu jab annually after that. I do - and it not only protects me but, as had been said on here already, it protects others around me.
I do get sick pay if I'm off, but in any case you couldn't go to work with real flu! The question of whether to go to work with a cold is a vexed question for both employers and employees - on the one hand, if you are able to work you should (e.g. if your cold is not a severe one), but on the other hand you don't want to infect anyone else...
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Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Posts: 405 | From: Flatlands of the East | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Several years ago, I nearly died because of the flu. I don't know how I contracted it, but I got real sick. It just hung on for the longest time. I really did not have a fever, just constricted chest. Finally, my wife insisted I go to the ER. They X-rayed me. My left lung cavity was filled with fluid (empyema) and it was completely collapsed. They tried to drain the fluid in the ER but when the fluid was exposed to air, it turned to jell. Next thing I knew I was being life-flighted to a regional hospital in Spokane. I was placed in ICU. The next day I was supposed to have surgery but they were having trouble finding an operating room available. In the afternoon, the doctor called and said they were going to have to transfer me again. I told them I did not think I could hang on much longer. Within the hour they had me in an operating room. I was in the hospital for three weeks, in the cardiac care unit. People were coming in for bypass surgery and leaving the hospital within five days. I was a very sick person.
Consequently, when the flu vaccines for the next year become available I religiously get them now.
I also got my shingles shot when I became eligible. I had worked with several people in the past who had shingles so I knew what it could be like. When I was a kid when I got chicken pox I was also very sick, so I knew if I got shingles it could be bad.
I kept bugging my wife to get her shingles shot but she kept putting it off. Then one day she got a small spot on her chin, like a small rash--the size of a quarter, but she said it was quite painful. She went into the doctor's office. She was very surprised it was shingles. After it cleared, she did get a shingles shot because one can have recurrences.
Another series of vaccinations to get for older people are whooping cough because our immune systems get weaker over the years, and pneumonia vaccinations again because of compromised immune systems.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
nd no, it's not about being king or controlling. It's just sensible. There is a larger discussion about individual versus group rights.
There is indeed. Groups do have rights, but typically where such things are acknowledged there is a mechanism for the group as a whole to express its collective wishes. That doesn't appear to have happened in this case. You have imposed your individual decision on a group of people because you believe it to be sensible. You aren't more qualified to make this decision than they are; you just have the power. While this may be legal where you live, that doesn't make it moral to make healthcare decisions for others.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
nd no, it's not about being king or controlling. It's just sensible. There is a larger discussion about individual versus group rights.
There is indeed. Groups do have rights, but typically where such things are acknowledged there is a mechanism for the group as a whole to express its collective wishes. That doesn't appear to have happened in this case. You have imposed your individual decision on a group of people because you believe it to be sensible. You aren't more qualified to make this decision than they are; you just have the power. While this may be legal where you live, that doesn't make it moral to make healthcare decisions for others.
But not getting vaccinated is also a health care choice for others. And they are allowed not to be vaccinated and we are allowed to pay them or not if they aren't at work. What's the problem?
Individual and collective rights are balanced differently in different places. It's cultural I think. When it comes to health care, partly because it is publicly funded and partly because it is a good idea, we have provincial laws which mandate cancer screening for colon and breast cancers, diabetes education and follow-up which results in cheaper or free diabetes supplies, public health visits post birth to homes, basic eye, hearing and dental screenings. Stuff like that. We expect some responsible behaviour from people about health. Some behaviour is encouraged by education, some by nudging people, and some by mandating it.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
A friend got shingles. Two days before she was coming home. I said wait a minute, let me look it up, i remember reading about a shingles technique.
Took me about 6 hours of solid searching.
Called her up and told her what some people with experience say is the cure. She was willing to try anything rather suffer for months.
She got home, called a chiropractor for an appointment, had to wait two day to get in to see him, but one hour later she was pain free.
The rash took about 10 days to heal, but it was visibly going away starting the first day.
Turns out shingles is an irritated nerve, irritated by heavy lifting or moving furniture. (She had been moving furniture, but didn't think to tell me that until later.)
Irritated nerve is healed by finding the sore spot and healing it by rearranging the slightly out of place nerves. Nerve healed, body relaxes, and heals.
Shingles is no longer a threat, as it can be healed in one rather cheap visit. Not by a doctor, but by a chiropractor.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Everything I've ever read (e.g., The Mayo Clinic) says Shingles is a viral infection. An chiropractic "adjustment" isn't going to kill a virus even if it helps with the pain.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We have provincial laws which mandate cancer screening for colon and breast cancers... <snip> We expect some responsible behaviour from people about health. Some behaviour is encouraged by education, some by nudging people, and some by mandating it.
You are equivocating on the word "mandate", making it sound like "command". No one is obliged, commanded, coerced or forced into colon or breast cancer screening, not even in Saskatchewan. Presumably the mandate to which you refer is the provincial government's authority to mandate that the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency provide such screening to the (insured) public. Who are perfectly free not to take advantage of such services.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Turns out shingles is an irritated nerve, irritated by heavy lifting or moving furniture. (She had been moving furniture, but didn't think to tell me that until later.)
Are you certain that you have not confused shingles and sciatica? Shingles is caused by the varicella zoster virus.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Shingles is caused by a virus, the chicken pox virus lying dormant in the body. You cannot catch shingles, it is caused by the dormant virus becoming reactivated in a nerve (which is why it so painful) This may be triggered by a lowered immune system. Someone with shingles can infect others with chicken pox if the blisters are uncovered and weeping. To catch shingles the person has to have had chicken pox in the past.
The treatment is anti-viral medication.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We have provincial laws which mandate cancer screening for colon and breast cancers... <snip> We expect some responsible behaviour from people about health. Some behaviour is encouraged by education, some by nudging people, and some by mandating it.
You are equivocating on the word "mandate", making it sound like "command". No one is obliged, commanded, coerced or forced into colon or breast cancer screening, not even in Saskatchewan. Presumably the mandate to which you refer is the provincial government's authority to mandate that the Saskatchewan Cancer Agency provide such screening to the (insured) public. Who are perfectly free not to take advantage of such services.
There are in fact very few health precautions everyone is required to take, and the government -- you know, the elected government -- mandates those. Not private employers. no prophet's flag is set so... is violating his employees' civil liberties IMO.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
nd no, it's not about being king or controlling. It's just sensible. There is a larger discussion about individual versus group rights.
There is indeed. Groups do have rights, but typically where such things are acknowledged there is a mechanism for the group as a whole to express its collective wishes. That doesn't appear to have happened in this case. You have imposed your individual decision on a group of people because you believe it to be sensible. You aren't more qualified to make this decision than they are; you just have the power. While this may be legal where you live, that doesn't make it moral to make healthcare decisions for others.
But not getting vaccinated is also a health care choice for others. And they are allowed not to be vaccinated and we are allowed to pay them or not if they aren't at work. What's the problem?
Individual and collective rights are balanced differently in different places. It's cultural I think. When it comes to health care, partly because it is publicly funded and partly because it is a good idea, we have provincial laws which mandate cancer screening for colon and breast cancers, diabetes education and follow-up which results in cheaper or free diabetes supplies, public health visits post birth to homes, basic eye, hearing and dental screenings. Stuff like that. We expect some responsible behaviour from people about health. Some behaviour is encouraged by education, some by nudging people, and some by mandating it.
You are not Justin Trudeau (I assume) and you are wielding a huge economic stick called wages in order to force employees to do something to their bodies. Employers buy labor, not whole people. Its economic bullying whether you are obliged to pay your employees or not.
Have you thought about paying your employees to have the jab? Why not calculate what the flu is costing you, and then split the saving between the company and those who take the jab? It's still unilateral, but you might like it better than my next suggestion.
Why don't you invite the relevant union to your workplace to meet with your people so that a suitable and lawful arrangement can be negotiated.
I applaud your approach of seeking to find a fair solution to the problem you've identified, including paying non-mandated sick leave. Many people would not do that.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I have always had the flu vax injection each year and it has offered good protection against flu. When I was working at the hospital it was a requirement that we were vaccinated. This year, despite being vaccinated, I succumbed to flu after being exposed to a very sick passenger travelling next to me on a plane. My doctor is of the opinion that the virus mutated this year and that the vaccine did not address that mutation. However, if I had not had the vaccination the bout of flu could have been more serious.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I have always had the flu vax injection each year and it has offered good protection against flu. When I was working at the hospital it was a requirement that we were vaccinated. This year, despite being vaccinated, I succumbed to flu after being exposed to a very sick passenger travelling next to me on a plane. My doctor is of the opinion that the virus mutated this year and that the vaccine did not address that mutation. However, if I had not had the vaccination the bout of flu could have been more serious.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
You are not Justin Trudeau (I assume) and you are wielding a huge economic stick called wages in order to force employees to do something to their bodies. Employers buy labor, not whole people. Its economic bullying whether you are obliged to pay your employees or not.
np requires his employees to get a 'flu vaccine, at his expense, based on his belief that choosing not to vaccinate without a "good" reason is wrong.
Hobby Lobby refuses to pay for its employees' contraception, based on its owners' belief that (some) contraception is wrong.
Apart from the fact that np's position is based on correct science, and Hobby Lobby's position is based on nonsense, are there other differences between the two cases?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
How much would it cost to have a qualified person come and vaccinate all employees (save of course those with a proper reason for not being jabbed)?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
A couple of IANAD thoughts:
--Boiron company puts out a medicine called Oscillococcinum. (I think I've got the spelling right.) It helps with colds and flu. Here, you can get it in drug stores, some groceries, and health food stores. Comes in a box with several doses, each in an individual tube of little pellets, which melt under your tongue.
Ok, the controversial bit: it's homeopathic.
It helps me. With my freaky immune system, I can have both cold and flu at the same time. The Oscillo (common nickname), because of all that, doesn't wipe all the germs out. BUT it does relieve symptoms, especially if I start taking it as soon as symptoms start.
I don't think it's a placebo effect, though I wouldn't be against it. I react badly to some other homeopathic meds.
I'm not pushing this. Just letting you know it exists, since some of us can't get the flu shot.
--On the same basis: AIUI, there a homeopathic flu vaccine that's made each year. I haven't tried it. But you probably have to go to a homeopath to get it.
FWIW, YMMV, eat lots of chicken soup.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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